# Kitten and Cat, natural enemies?



## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Hello all,

Driving to work one morning with the BF, I see a tiny kitten (~8 weeks) sitting on top of an 8 foot tall barbed wire fence waiting patiently for rescue. How he could have gotten up there I can only speculate. Naturally I obliged. I picked him up and after 20 minutes of wandering around with him in my arms wondering what to do now and seeing no obvious solutions, I decided to take him home. 

The saga of Tiny kitten, the abridged version: He got a clean bill of health from the vet and spent the next few weeks in the bathroom and bedroom getting adjusted while I worked on winning over Bean Cat (8yo spayed female and boss) to the idea of a roommate.

After careful internet based study including the very helpful thread of Hoofmaiden's introduction of Jonah. I decided to take things slowly. There was no visual contact for a few weeks, then room swapping for a few more and now (6 weeks later) we have interactions through a gate. Tiny Kitten (real name now Spoon) has been wonderful. He obviously wants to play with Bean Cat, but is respectful of her hissing. I've had Bean for 6 years after adopting her from a shelter and she's never been keen on other cats.

Last night we had the first (intentional) free interaction time. It did not go as well as one might have hoped. Lots of hissing and growling from Bean. We stopped it before it could become a fight, but now I'm so depressed.  I guess it will take more time. I've used feliway, treats at the gate, praise and playtime and anything I can think of. 

Maybe I just need some encouragement and other success stories. I throw myself on the mercy of the forum! Is there hope, or should I start looking for a new home for Tiny kitten? It would break my heart to give him away, but it isn't fair that he is getting constantly hissed at. *sigh*


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Picture of Spoon the kitten


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

I was a bit upset, but feeling more optimistic now. We are maintaining the normal schedule with regular viewings at the gate when I am home to supervise. They are also getting more used to being rubbed with a cloth to swap scents. Just one more weird human thing they put up with.

Bean cat seems to really enjoy watching kitten play. He can run right towards her and she won't make any bad sounds as long as he is chasing a toy! He has also gotten very good at respecting her personal space and not being too spazzy at her. It could be much worse, I'm sure.

I'm still not sure how to actually instigate free interaction time. Should I just open the gate and stand back to let them go where they wish? Should I wait for one or the other to jump over the gate (either of them can with a little preliminary looking and planning)? I probably shouldn't take kitten to the living room (Bean cat's daytime territory), right?

They may never be best friends, but I hope they will both feel happy and safe.
:2kitties


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## Arianwen (Jun 3, 2012)

As well as rubbing with a cloth, let each of them sleep on a cloth for a few nights then swap them over. Worth a try!


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you for the suggestion. I will try swapping bedding. Bean cat likes to sleep on top of the DVD player (warm up there) so I will try putting a cloth there and see if she goes for it. Honestly, I don't know where Tiny kitten likes to sleep. As soon as I open the door, he is right there waiting to play!  Maybe on top of the cat tree? Most likely place.

Tiny kitten (for real this time, I hope)









Bean cat too


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## Arianwen (Jun 3, 2012)

Lovely pictures.


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## sueasinsue (Jun 23, 2011)

*Take time-and be patient*

I have a 2 year old calico that is as mean as the day is long, I introduced two kittens to her that were 8 weeks when i got them. I kept the kittens in their own room for 3 weeks before even letting them out to explore, I also bought a book on cat behavior by Pam-Bennett and did everything she said to do. 

Now it is 5 months and resident cat actually plays and sleeps with the kittens, sure they still have their moments and hissy fights but they get along. Just take your time, there were moments when I thought Oh my GOD this will never work! Or that my resident cat would end up killing the kittens! But it worked out, it just takes time


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you Sue, I'm glad things worked out for everyone. I just have to patient. I know. I will have to do some traveling in a few months for work, but if they are not getting along to the point of always being together by there then, I will put kitten with a boarder while I'm away. It's not fair to ask my volunteer cat sitter to deal with two camps, and maybe it would be a good socialization opportunity for kitten. 

I'm pretty sure the library must think I am now a crazy cat lady with all the cat books I check out..


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## Jetlaya67 (Sep 26, 2012)

Give them time. Even if they don't become the best of friends, they will learn to coexist. Nyska is not a fan of Winston. Winston would love to play with Nyska all the time and she does not want to do anything with that kind of childish behavior and she lets him know. Overall they do their own thing.


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

Time is your friend.  I foster a lot so I constantly have new cats coming through without the luxury of weeks and weeks to make everyone fit together well. My fosters stay in my laundry room (which has a glass door). Everyone can see and sniff, but no contact. Generally this works well. I had one Queen though...I had to put a blanket across the glass door because she went absolutely nuts with rage at the sight of my cats. Even she was able to tolerate them after about 6 weeks though.

The next step for me is a baby gate. My kitchen and living room make good base camps. Kittens get to come out into the kitchen with a baby gate separating it from the living room (where my cats are). Generally, the kittens try to climb the gate. Once they make it over (it can take a few days before the kitchen gets boring), my cats generally make a fuss. There will be some hissing. Kittens generally runs back over the gate and into the kitchen. After a few days of this (my guys are pretty mellow with fosters--it could take longer than a few days for you), the gate comes down and kittens can explore the house under supervision. I keep a squirt bottle handy. Whoever growls (almost always the adult cats) gets squirted. My cats make pouty faces for a few days, but figure out pretty quick that I won't tolerate them picking on the kittens and give it up. 

Also, I find my guys are far more forgiving/lenient with kittens than with other adult cats. Of my 72 fosters, only a handful have never been able to live inside with my guys in harmony, and every single one of them was an adult cat. My guys put up with a lot more from kittens than from adult cats. Hopefully the same is true for you!  Good luck!


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

If you have a cat sitter I would encourage you to _keep the kitten at home_ and not board her. She will come home with a different scent and you will be back at square one. Most adult cats, once they are over having their nose out of joint for the ordasity of you bringing another cat into their sovereign kingdom, will have a tolerance for the kitten. Give a bit of time.

BTW the Pam Bennett Johnson books that sueasinsue recommended are some of the best out there to help understand your cats behaviors and where they are coming from and what to do about different issues.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Yes, patient... must be patient. Bean Cat has been an only kitty for 6 years now, so I need to remind myself that it is a big adjustment for her. I've read "Cat vs. Cat" and it was very helpful. I will certainly read the other books she's written too.

One more question: Kitten spends the evenings in the bathroom (that was his first safe room) and he seems to enjoy it. We have a little routine where I take him and and give him more food and brush my teeth and say goodnight. He settles right down and doesn't make any noise until morning when I let him out. He spends the day when I am at work in my bedroom with Bean cat in the rest of the apartment. She seems to not mind so much when he is in the bedroom, but when I invert them so he is in the living room she is much more aggressive. I'm wondering if I should spend a couple of days with Bean in the bedroom (when I'm at work) so she gets more used to him being in the living room. What do you think? Would that just be more stressful for her or help diffuse some of the territoriality?

It's great to hear other people's stories of introductions that took a while. Reading the thread on introduction times was making me a little depressed. Seems like so many people had something like "2 weeks and they were best of friends!" Maybe it just seems that way to me.:cat But really, it's only been 7 weeks, that's not long at all.


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## 3furbabies (Dec 7, 2011)

CorriniP said:


> Seems like so many people had something like "2 weeks and they were best of friends!" Maybe it just seems that way to me.:cat But really, it's only been 7 weeks, that's not long at all.


That is more so the case with younger cats. My two youngest I got two weeks and a part and didn't need any intro. Then again they were cage mates at the rescue. However, when we got our 6 year old cat(now almost 7) it took her 3 months to adjust and she is still terrified of our dog to this day. She gets alone really well with the youngest cat but her and the other one get alone most of the time(this took a while) still smack each other occasionally. Don't give up.

Also, I would switch their safe rooms to get them use to each others scent more and so the kitten can explore more as well.


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## sueasinsue (Jun 23, 2011)

*good idea*

I agree the baby gate is the way to go if you can do it. I used two window screens duct taped together and then duct taped to the top of my stairs. The kittens had the upstairs and resident cat had the downstairs. It took about 2 weeks for Ez (resident cat) to approach the screen! She was petrified of the kittens, but then a few weeks later, one step closer every other day- they were all "sniffing" at the screen. That's when I took it away and started letting the kittens out for 15 minute increments -then 30-then an hour. 
One thing I learned from the book that relieves tension is adding territory vertically, I bought two cat towers, and they started off fighting in the towers but soon learned to share.


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## sueasinsue (Jun 23, 2011)

At 7 weeks I was using screens to keep the cats apart and they had not met without the screen. So 7 weeks is not bad at all.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Right now the set up I have is a baby gate at the bedroom door. It took Bean a while to figure out that if she stands back about 6 inches, she is completely out of reach of kitten paws. I love Bean dearly, but she is a furry little dummy. But that works out well for me since it makes her easy to out smart. 

I also found an old window screen that I put over the gate to prevent jumping. Of course that only encourages climbing by kitten and I don't trust it to contain anyone when I'm away.

I do invert them every day. When I first get up and let out kitten, we are in the living room until I leave and he goes into the bedroom. Then when I get home, we do it again for maybe 30 min. Bean is always very accommodating since I leave a few pieces of kitten food for her to find in the bedroom. I think tomorrow I will keep Bean in the bedroom and let tiny kitten have the rest while I am at work. I will put her tunnel box in there too, since she loves that. 

I did get a second cat tree for the living room. It's a nice tall one and is already well loved.

Mostly I have been worrying about when to let them have free interaction time. I don't want any fights, but I'm not sure what the "sign" will be that it is safe to open the gate.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Do you have Feliway plug in diffuser going in your house? If not, that would really help.


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## sueasinsue (Jun 23, 2011)

*I can relate*

I was terrified to even think about leaving them all alone with me gone! I asked the same question on this forum...and took the advice of someone who posted. First don't leave them alone until the hissing and attacking dies down. Then just leave for small periods of time, 15 minutes, maybe 20, then eventually run an errand and leave them out, etc. I would wait though, 7 weeks is not that long for your resident cat to adjust. It took mine 3 months before I started letting the kittens out alone with her. 

Keep using the screens and baby gates too-believe me they will come around, I know exactly how you feel, and it will work out.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

I don't have the Feliway diffuser, but I had a leftover bottle of the spray from when I moved cross country with Bean (that's a long story, but she handled it remarkably well). I give the gate a spritz twice a day with that. Maybe I should get the diffuser though. My bottle is pretty old and there is a cloud of alcohol while it dries (that might keep me calmer though :wiggle). Bean was a little cough-y this morning after the spritz. I think she got a nose full of it. A more constant infusion might be better too.

Thanks Sue. I've got a workable situation now, so if things need to stay like this for a few more months even, that's okay. It's a little hectic since everyone seems to want to be in the opposite location all the time, but they are getting more and more used to the routine. My evenings are often spent at the desk in my bedroom trying to read/entertain kitties and keeping everyone from jumping. 

New question in the ongoing series "CorriniP doesn't know what she is doing":
I also need to get tiny kitten neutered soon too. I'm going to try to get an appointment next week when he will be 17-18 weeks. Anyone know what the recovery is like? How long and what I should do for pain management?


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

CorriniP said:


> It's a little hectic since everyone seems to want to be in the opposite location all the time


That is the essence of life with cats. 



CorriniP said:


> New question in the ongoing series "CorriniP doesn't know what she is doing":
> I also need to get tiny kitten neutered soon too. I'm going to try to get an appointment next week when he will be 17-18 weeks. Anyone know what the recovery is like? How long and what I should do for pain management?


Neutering is much less invasive than spaying and kittens tend to bounce back faster than adult cats. Recovery is pretty simple. Keep them from licking at it for a week (generally kittens are much too busy playing to even notice). Get a cone if needed (I've never had a kitten need one--just adults). The vets I've worked with didn't give pain meds for neuter surgeries (they did offer them for spay surgeries though). 

I've had 9 boys neutered this year. None had any complications at all and all of them were tearing around the house within a few hours of being home (despite my best efforts to keep them calm and confined).


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

This is the vet I used. Their post-op instructions are on their website here:

Coalition: HUMAnE -- Low Cost Spay Neuter Tacoma


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

*You guys are awesome!*

Thanks everyone!

Minor excitement last night. Tiny kitten jumped the gate and made a dash for Bean Cat (who was in the living room trying to get into her new bag of food). She came at him hissing, but I clapped my hands to distract her and he diverted into the bathroom. I quickly shut the door and violence was averted. Whew.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

The beauty of kittens is they dont take no for an answer. This kittens wants to be friends and will continue to bug Bean to be his buddy. This kitten wants a relationship and will continue till he gets one. Bean will give in eventually! Keep up the good work with them. It will all work out.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

There is much truth in this I think.






I look forward to the day we get past the hissy stage and onto the playing stage.

I'm fairly certain I will come home to a big mess tonight. Kitten is in the living room today, but I forgot to put away the tissue box. Tiny kitten loves shredding tissues. He has previously tried to serve himself from the box. *sigh*


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Very funny video! Very true about kittens!


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## Catmamma (Apr 18, 2011)

I had pretty good luck with using my old, unlaundered tshirts to mix the scents--theirs and mine. But my oldest cat, who has since died, always was nervous with the fiesty little one. She stopped hissing but never cuddled with her. Maybe she would have in time. She would sit on one side of me while my little cat would sit on the other side. Sometimes--but rarely, they would both perch on the recliner. One on the seat; one on the back. Good luck.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Pleasant surprise, no mess last night! Everyone seemed perfectly calm and happy with their location. I will now do an every other day rotation for working hours location.

Filiway diffuser in the mail too!


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

I love that video...watched it twice and giggled all the way through both times


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## sueasinsue (Jun 23, 2011)

That video makes me laugh and it is so true, I had both my kittens (boy & a girl) neutered and spayed at 5 months. Both were playing and eating within hours of being home. 
The fighting might seems really aggressive at first-but watch you'll notice little by little the older cat will do less and less hissing. When I think back to the hissing-cat fights and how my resident cat would sound like the Exorcist when a kitten came bouncing into the room and proceeded to bounce onto her head, I was petrified...then little by little day by day....they work it out.


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## GhostTown (Jan 12, 2012)

Hopefully the Feliway diffuser will work better for you. I use three of them positioned around different points in my house just for general "happiness". I use the Feliway spray to keep them away from things (temporarily).


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Update and the new things I've been trying lately:

Feliway diffuser is in place (and generally following Bean cat from room to room). 

I've slowed down a bit on the visual interactions, usually keeping the door closed or open just a bit when I am in one room or the other. 

I think Bean is nervous of the kitten noises, so I've tried to muffle the sound of him jumping on the door and climbing (it's like a folding closet door with slats on the upper half). It can get pretty loud and I think it makes him sound more intimidating than he really is. :catsm

I'm also exposing Bean to kitten's pheromones. He never rubs his face on anything, so last night, I took a clean sock and rubbed it on his cheeks. I feed Bean some treats right next to it and she was fine for the first few, but then it was like she caught a whiff. She didn't take the last treat and started to slink over to her cat cubby a few feet away. She stopped and turned back to look, but she wouldn't eat the treat until I moved it away from the sock. That was a surprise. I had assumed they would have smelled each other very well by now, but I guess since he doesn't rub... that or the sock wasn't as clean as I thought. :???: So kitten sock will be a new introduction tool.

I'm also trying to get Bean to play more to improve her general happiness. Problem is she gets stuck in her tunnel. She runs to the end to hide and watch the toy, but never runs out the other end! :fust

I'm also switching them over to canned food (and scheduled feedings). It is better for them and I will be able to use meal time as a tool for friendly goodtimes bonding. Bean is taking it better then I expected (thoroughly licking at the very least), but Kitten is less enthusiastic. I'll try again tonight.

Overall, I feel like I have a plan now. Mostly I'm just focusing on making things generally better (especially for Bean cat) and slowly proceeding with integration. There have been fewer hisses lately.


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Week 10: New update in the continuing saga of Bean and a kitten. 

Things were a bit hectic here over the last few weeks, but now things are calmer and its back on track for operation cats (plural)!:2kitties

Feliway diffuser is still diffusing. 

I added a window perch to one of the bedroom windows. Bean seems to enjoy it and kitten is too small to jump up there yet. I also put a cat bed on top of my bookcase, which Bean also likes.

Kitten was neutered last week and has recovered well.

Kitten is now eating exclusively a mix of grain free canned (mostly wellness) and commercial raw (Natures Variety Instinct) plus some chicken chunks and organs. Bean cat has been slower to transition. She does kind of eat the canned/raw mix, but I still supplement with a few tablespoons of kibble. Side question: Does anyone have any tricks for getting her to actually EAT the food rather than just lick it? I don't need to sprinkle any treats since she is already interested enough to thoroughly lick, but I don't know how to get her to take a bite. I mostly use the pate kind and mix in a little warm water to make it soupier. I also put in an order at Hare today for some mice and quail and rabbit chunks. I'll see how well that goes over. 

I now have a three gate bedroom door set up that I can leave open when I am at work. And I am feeding Bean within a few feet of the gate all the time. Still no free interaction time yet, but must be patient...


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

Yay! Sounds like things are progressing well!


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

The hardest part is staying patient and not loosing hope.

Bean is getting more playful, even when kitten is watching, so that is progress.


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## Arianwen (Jun 3, 2012)

Very well done!


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## MyBabiesDaddy (Jan 1, 2013)

That video is absolutely awesome! I watch it over and over again! Exactly how they behave!!


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## CorriniP (Dec 6, 2012)

Week 11 update:

Not much progress I'm afraid. :sad: Still no free interaction time yet. But I'm keeping the door open all the time with the gates set up, so they can see each other when I'm not home.

I'm also going to slow down on the attempt to transition Bean to wet food. She still isn't really eating her wet meals completely (I believe it is the same volume, just mushed up to the side of the bowl). Reducing the scary change may help her feel more comfortable again. I'll try to find something less horrible in the kibble department tonight. I'm also planning on making her "earn" at least a few of those kibbles by feeding them to her one by one at the gate (like kibble treats). As long as she is not a hissy missy, she gets more. Any hissies and that is the end of meal time! I've been trying to distract her with toys when the tension gets high, but I could smack her in the face and she still wouldn't be distracted. I'll see if food works better.

Kitten is now a very hungry 5 month old. He is eating meat chunks pretty well including rabbit and some chicken. He still isn't very interested in chewing bones though, but he still has his baby teeth.

I'm also convinced that his fur has gotten darker. I don't know if its just natural aging or his coat coming in more or if its in response to the diet change, but he is certainly not as silver as he was. He is now darker grey with a bit more brown in his coat.

That's how things stand now. As always, suggestions are much appreciated :2kitties

MyBabiesDaddy, I love that video too. That kitten is just like mine. The way he walks with his back hunched and his tail droopy... pure kitten.


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