# What is your opinion!



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

Just a thought!  
Lets just say someone has a purebred kitten and the previous owner never registered their cat... Now you decide to breed your purebred (with out a registration) to another purebred of its kind, then you or the owner's of these kittens go to sell them with no papers. Does that make them a moggie due to the lack of registration peppers? 
I was just wondering what everyone makes of this and what your opinions are.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Yeah, it's a moggie all right. Not opinion but fact. That's just the way the process works.

http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15252


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

But an interesting question might be: if one did get a purebred kitten without papers, is it possible to get it registered after the fact?


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

> NewRagdoll
> Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:23 am
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



OK, so, if the "breeder" how sold you a kitten for breeding and her queen has papers stating her cat (Queen) is a purebred and can be registerd...However, she never registered this cat, you can go back into the pedigree and see a line of registered cats even though she did not register dose this still make you think this cat is not a purebred even though it is? O, and if you have such proof or can get it then can you register these kittens if the parent has never been registered?
I hope this makes some form of sense :lol: ! I just thought it would be good to see what you all thought since I have read so many different opinions on this type of subject.


----------



## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

I think some people take the "purebred" vs "mixed" and "moggies" argument a little too far sometimes.

Honestly, if you KNOW your cat came from a long line of registered purebreds, although she herself isn't registered for whatever reason, you KNOW she's a purebred. If you were to breed her to a registered purebred of the same type, the kittens would also be purebred, because you know the lineage etc.

The only time it really matters is when it comes to other people and your cats. Heck, I can call mine a purebred Siamese... but people will call me crazy (because he's obviously not at all). However, I couldn't SELL him as a purebred Siamese because I have no proof. Now, more realistically I can sell him as a British Shorthair to someone who has no information about cats and the breed because they'll more than likely say "wow, round face, fluffy cat... looks like a Brit to me!" Is this legal? Nope. I have no proof of his breeding... but if someone's gonna pay, its their mistake.

Anyway - the sad truth is that people are willing to pay big bucks for breed names. Few people actually put the effort into doing research on breeds to find out if they're getting a good, close to standard example of the breed or just the offspring of two parents who are called the same thing.

Sure, you can sell kittens as purebred whether they're registered or not, simply because there will be people who will pay. Its unethical, probably illegal... but who is going to stop you? 

(before I get yelled at, I am in no way condoning this practice. I'm very against breeding by anyone other than reputable and responsible breeders... I've just been hearing my fair share of "NO, its not a purebred without papers!" lately. I know the arguments. I agree with the arguments in every LEGAL sense... I just can't get over how serious some people make it out to be)


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Get in touch with the breeder. Ask her to register that litter. It is simple and not expensive.

She did not register your kitten for one of two possible reasons. She might not considering her to be breeding quality, although bloodlines (genotype) mean more than outward appearanse. (phenotype). If she is not a good example of the breed, you would not want to breed her, because you would not be preserving or improving the standard of the breed. 

The other possibiblity (and this happens a lot) is that she does not want the competition.  There is nothing you can do for yourself, unfortunately. You have a pure bred, but not pedigreed kitten, and regardless of quality, that is considered a Himmie "type." I'm sorry. I'm sure she's lovely.

I wish you the best.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

I looked at a breeder's web site not too long ago which stated that their papers are not delivered until the kitten is neutered/spayed by the buyer. That would take care of the "competition" problem.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

That's true, and it keeps the price way up there. This isn't the only way tp keep the prices up, but it is another way, besides refusing to give the buyer papers. Some animals should not be bred...true, but pricing kittens at $1500 and claiming that's what it cost to raise them is absolutely immoral.


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

Actually Purebred means the cat is the product of two full-blooded parents of the same breed. Registered Purebred means it has papers. Technicly you can breed "purebred" moggies :roll: Caveat Empor, Purebred doesn't always mean registered.

Waiting to hand over the registration papers is a common way to help decrease unwanted kittens from happening. The owners want the registration, but they cannot get it until proof of spay/neuter is shown.

Personally I have no problem with forking over over $2,000 to get my breeder queen. 
1. It's an 'average' price for a Bengal that is show quality

2. I did my research and everything about her has me confident i've made the right decision to choose her 

3. Honestly, I only found one breeder with comparable bloodlines and her prices STARTED at $2,500 for BREEDER quality, not even up to show quality! 

4. It puts the breeders mind at ease so she knows I am serious about this and about doing it right 

5. If I can't take the price in stride then I probably shouldn't be breeding anyways, considering the other costs (such as emergency surgery) involved.


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

First off I would like to say, this is not a real situation at least not for me... I do not condone breeding in any way unless selective and only and I do mean only in a very selective manner. My parents and I co-owned American Cocker Spaniels and showed in the AKC for many years we strictly bred to better the line. While showing and breeding we bred only once a year if even usually every other year. However, we did have two litters in one year from two different Bitches (a buff & a black) and even then we would give one of our best (if not kept) to a top show owner to get the line out. If sold to pet owners the money was not an issue usually we would give them (free) to a good home, finding that out thrugh refrences and interveuws along with a sighned spay/nutter contracte. After retiering from the AKC and showing dogs we moved and got into showing cats, when we disided to get a show quality Himalayan breeding was a must not... After trying to educate the publice whill in dogs (showing that is, for 12 years), it was a big fustration to see the majority of people not care about the wellfare of animals or want to spay/nutter all most of them saw was $ (dollar singes). Such a shame :x So, we striktly show Alters and still to this day try and educate the publice through our clubs etc. And with all that said, I just wanted to hear wear people stand... I have heard so many cunflikting opinons on this subject I thought it would be interasting to get a more indepth thought prosses on this. Please keep your thoughts coming, I think this is very interasting to read and learn how other people feel about "breeders" and how they try to justify the prices and breeding of their animals... O, and yes how they categorize them with a mock situations like this. :wink:


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

I think the prices are due to the demand. Right now Ragdolls are very popular and the demand exceeds the supply. So they can pretty charge what they want. And if they won't give papers unless the kittens are fixed, then the supply won't increase. It's strictly business, folks.


----------



## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

I think it would be the same for cats as with the Cocker Spaniels.
If you sold someone a pup with the express condition that no papers until the animal was altered. Then they decided to breed the dog with no papers in hand, I don't think you could sell those as purebreds even though they are. Well, I guess you could, but you did some breeding. Would you buy an unpapered purebred?
That being said, I have a papered golden who is the best dog in the entire world, (just ask her!) but came from bad breeders and she's had a few major health problems. Papers are only papers and the animal is still only as good as the breeders......

I know someone who breeds Singapura's and they don't turn over the males until they've been neutered and the female owners won't get the papers until they've been spayed.

I don't think it's competition, because they would sell breeders to a competent breeder looking for a breeding quality cat, they just won't sell to your average joe on the street for fear that they might not care as much about promoting the breed.

Jennifer


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

> I think it would be the same for cats as with the Cocker Spaniels.
> If you sold someone a pup with the express condition that no papers until the animal was altered. Then they decided to breed the dog with no papers in hand, I don't think you could sell those as purebreds even though they are. Well, I guess you could, but you did some breeding. Would you buy an unpapered purebred?


I am a bit confused, are you stating this or are you referring this question to me? 
In any case I will answer in the best way I can.
I never have bred cats due to the fact I do not condone breeding other than to better the breed and only with the standard of each breed as to continue and improve the breed. I showed American Cockers and bred them,there is a difference between good breeders and "breeders". I gave and did not sell these puppies until six months only, and even then the Cockers were purebred from a long line of West Minster winners and sold with papers in hand as well as the contract.
Triple Image Cockers!!!


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

I forgot to add, yes I would buy a purebred without papers if showing was not an issue. It would make no difference to me as long as I got the animal I wanted and could provide a good home to it. 
PS. I love to rescue animals it is a blessing from God to be able to give an animal in need a better home.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

This was supposed to be a hypothetical question, so I have unlocked the thread. It was a misunderstanding. My apologies.


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

I would like to say thank you to all how have posted their very informational opinions, this was met in no way to make anyone feel foolish or otherwise  ... I am very SORRY if I have done so!!! This is definitely a hypothetical question, and in no way was to be controversial or a tool of deceit. I by no means know it all and am learning all the time from others who are more up their than I.Please keep you opinions coming they are great.
 
~CyPurrHimmie~


----------



## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Would I buy an unpaperd purebred? Nope... but then again I'm against "buying" pets anyway... always been for saving them.

But plenty of people WOULD buy a pet without papers. There are tons of people who don't even know about papers. They just think "well, if mom is a ____ and dad is a ____ then the baby is a _____" and that's all they need to know. Of course, they also think that because they have a purebred _____ they MUST breed it at least once... :roll:


----------



## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

I have no problem with getting a purebred if there is something specific with that dogbreed/catbreed that you want. I do have a golden retriever. If I had my heart on a specific breed of dog/cat, I wouldn't buy it without papers. I have a co-worker that did that. He wanted a malamute. He paid for a malamute-pricewise. The "breeders" said it was a purebred malamute, just neither parent was registered, so no papers.

Yeah, it's not a malamute, most likely a husky-malamute cross. He loves her to death, but she's not a malamute. He paid big bucks for a dog that is not what he paid for-not that he'd give her back. And, what about the people who want a black lab. ALL little black puppies look like labs to your average person. It's just too easy for everyday people to get scammed buying non-papered purebreds. That's why I'd never do it, and why I'd seriously discourage other people from doing it.

Plus, how many times in this forum have people asked about what to look for in a good breeder. I think selling non-papered purebreds would be the number one thing to look for in a bad breeder-backyard/mills.

Jennifer


----------



## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

The other thing about papers is that as far as I know, you can't get them on the "designer" breeds coming out (more dogs than cats) because they aren't recognized breeds.

I can't tell you how many "labradoodles" and "cockapoos" we've seen so far this summer... and how much money people paid for them! 8O 

Its funny, because if you look in the classifieds, you can find some "lab/poodle mixes, free to go home" then "labradoodle - hypoallergenic, nonshedding, great pets for people with allergies! $1500!!"

And by the way - has anyone ever touched a labradoodle and NOT been covered in hair?? the most common question the new owners have when they come in... "I thought he wasn't supposed to shed... this is going to stop right?" :roll: 

but yeah, back on topic... I think if you're going to purchase a purebred cat or dog from a breeder, make sure they are registered. Although its not the only thing to look for, its definately a good sign that you're on the right track.


----------



## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

CyPurrHimmie said:


> I would like to say thank you to all how have posted their very informational opinions, this was met in no way to make anyone feel foolish or otherwise  ... I am very SORRY if I have done so!!! This is definitely a hypothetical question, and in no way was to be controversial or a tool of deceit. I by no means know it all and am learning all the time from others who are more up their than I.Please keep you opinions coming they are great.
> 
> ~CyPurrHimmie~


I honestly never thought otherwise of your post, you titled it clearly and your first line was pretty self-explanatory. Please don't worry -- in my opinion you've ben nothing but respectful and kind here and I really appreciated hearing what you have to say. 

As for the topic, it's so hard. Osnobunnie0 made some great points. On one hand, I would never want to support a person who is breeding unethically. But the truth is, those cats are probably going to go somewhere no matter what. Some poor sap is going to pay way too much for them not even knowing what to look for in a breeder, or they are going to go to a shelter, or get dumped. I am not saying all backyard breeders are bad people who try to scam you and don't care about their animals -- but they just have not thought it through or done their research, as we know and have discussed. 

So anyway...if someone was selling purebred cats or purebred mixes for the same price as a shelter cat, I have to say I might buy one just as long as there was proof of vet checks and proper care. Because even though I don't support the breeder and would tell them so, that poor kitty is the one who is going to be impacted by the situation. It's not the kitty's fault. It's just as sad of a case as all the kitties in shelters, usually. So to me there wouldn't be much difference. Yes I realize that you are either giving money to a shelter that promotes awareness and proper care of animals, or to a person who isn't breeding properly. But if the person provides good care for the kitten, and doesn't charge purebred price, I have to say that the life of that kitty is what's paramount to me. I can't say that I would prefer the life of either a shelter kitty or a breeder kitty just based on who is responsible for them. To me they are equal. 

To make a long story short, no I would not buy a purebred cat without papers or a contract leading to papers for full price. If I care about getting a purebred cat I will go to an ethical breeder. But yes, I would buy a purebred cat or purebred mix from a shelter or a breeder as long as they were well-cared for -- deal is always off if it's not. It's all rescue to me, as unfortunate as it is. Backyard breeders will sell or get rid of their kittens no matter what. 

I feel kind of icky making this post, but I'm just trying to be honest and say what I would probably do.


----------



## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

CatzRule said:


> but how can they be moggies if they're pure bred? just because they don't have PAPERS? PAPERS? that is so weird! Its like if a human didn't have a birth certificate it would be called...um...well I don't know, but that is just plain rude to the poor cat!


Why would it be rude to the cat? I don't think the cat cares if you call it a Persian, a Siamese, a moggie or a German Shepherd... My guess is that the only thing the cat cares about is that its being taken care of and loved.

My opinion is that it's a moggie if there aren't papers there to proof otherwise. 

Should I sell my Devon Rex kittens without papers I would indeed be selling moggies, but of course I wouldn't do that.

I can call myself Norwegian if I'd like to, but that doesn't make me Norwegian. I'm not Norwegian until the day I can show that I'm a Norwegian citizen... no one could tell I'm NOT Norwegian by the looks of me :wink:


----------



## Padunk (Oct 20, 2003)

Sol said:


> I can call myself Norwegian if I'd like to, but that doesn't make me Norwegian. I'm not Norwegian until the day I can show that I'm a Norwegian citizen... no one could tell I'm NOT Norwegian by the looks of me :wink:


Fantastic analogy, Sol! I think I'll repeat that to some of the others that ask, if you don't mind.


----------



## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

You can call a cat a purebred if you know it is, but you can't prove it or sell it as such without papers. Like Sol mentioned, the cat doesn't care. Moggie doesn't = insult.


----------



## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

Padunk said:


> Sol said:
> 
> 
> > I can call myself Norwegian if I'd like to, but that doesn't make me Norwegian. I'm not Norwegian until the day I can show that I'm a Norwegian citizen... no one could tell I'm NOT Norwegian by the looks of me :wink:
> ...


Feel free to use my analogy :wink:


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

I really think it is a hole different ball game in the cat world as apposed to the dog, horse world. With horse's if you have a Quarter horse that has no papers to prove it but,you know or it is undeniably a QH than it really comes down to less money for the animal and in some cases the money factor is not even an issue due to show record, conformation, disposition etc. With dog's in my experience and for most it is easy to tell if an animal is a purebred wether pet or stadeard (usually)... Yes, it effects the desirability and cost of the animal but, most people don't even think anything of the fact the dog may not have papers. While showing it was a none issue as to whether a pet had papers, you just knew the animals breed and if not pure than you could tell. As we all know just because a person, "breeder" has/sells purebred dogs with AKC papers it does not mean they are worth more or happen to be any good for that matter (standard wise). It seems to be a BIG misconception in the dog (and even cat) world as to if a animal is papered or registered then they are somehow better then the average dog (cat), the general public seems to think they are worth more and are in the likeness of the standard... I cannot tell you how many times I have come across people how think there animal is show just because of papers/registration. Cat's are so different, the (purebred) breeds are ever changing, breeders are always refining the look. I have a good friend Don Finger, he is an All-Breed judge in the ACFA (I think CFA also) he has been one if not the founding breeder of the exotic short hear. I am always astonished at how fast the combining of breeds in the show world will turn out a new breeds even if not designated they are very quickly recognized as so. It really is a hole other game compared to dog's, as for horses so many people combine breeds and then make their own associations to accommodate them... I do not agree with that but, that is a hole other non cat subject in its self. I find it to be much harder to distinguish a purebred from even a pet purebred, it is so imperative in the cat world to have papers to designate this very thing. With papers or not this does not make much difference to me unless I am showing or looking for a purebred. Other than that I really do think it is so hard to tell what a cat's breed may be if papers are not in hand.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

> most people don't even think anything of the fact the dog may not have papers. While showing it was a none issue as to whether a pet had papers, you just knew the animals breed and if not pure than you could tell.


As a former breeder who raised and showed colliies, I can tell you that if someone tried to show a dog in an AKC show without papers, he would not be allowed in the ring. I am puzzled by your post. I was no expert at choosing the pick of the litter; I left that up to the owner of the stud dog, who was a collie specialty judge, but I could certainly tell a pet from a show dog once the pup matured. The pedigree with no champions on it would probably mean the dog wouldn't be shown. All of the dogs I saw being shown had pedgrees with a majority of champions in the ancestry. Blood will tell! 

Three months is a good age to judge the conformation of a pup, but the bite can change, the shape of the head might elongate too much, the nose could become snipey, and the movement might not meet collie standards. The ears could prick, the eye be a bit too large, and the face get veiny with maturity. 

Only the best of the best dogs are shown, and almost anyone can tell a collie type from a collie. These were AKC rules; I can't imagine anyone showing a collie with no papers unless it was a child in Junior Showmanship or a puppy match. Copies of the papers and pedigree had to be sent in with the entry fee. Ahd we also took a copy to the shows. The puppies also had to be pure bred collies. Of course, the very young puppies were shown first in local puppy matches held by the Collie Club in the area. That's where they learned, both puppies and young people.

We also went to all breed AKC shows. The rules were the same. I'm really puzzled by your post! Perhaps you showed in the pet category? You mentioned Westminster. Did you show in England, rather than the US? Westminster is probably the most prestigious dog show in the western world. I know I'm missing something!  :?:


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeanie said:


> The ears could Richard,


Jeanie caught by the auto-censor? 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Yes, I was!  What I meant, of course, is that they could stand straight, rather than have the tips turn over!  Well, that doesn't sound much better, does it? Well, you know what I mean.


----------



## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Jeanie said:


> Yes, I was!  What I meant, of course, is that they could stand straight, rather than have the tips turn over!  Well, that doesn't sound much better, does it? Well, you know what I mean.


OMG, that's TOO funny! I've never heard that term before and was thrown off by the "richard" part... just thought it was some sort of show term.

Good eye Tim


----------



## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

Jeanie posted:




> As a former breeder who raised and showed colliies, I can tell you that if someone tried to show a dog in an AKC show without papers, he would not be allowed in the ring. I am puzzled by your post.





> We also went to all breed AKC shows. The rules were the same. I'm really puzzled by your post! Perhaps you showed in the pet category? You mentioned Westminster. Did you show in England, rather than the US? Westminster is probably the most prestigious dog show in the western world. I know I'm missing something!



When I stated that one could tell if a dog was a purebred even without papers I did not mean you could show them... You are 100% rite you cannot show any animal without papers other than cats in household classes or horses in open or 4H, there are no pet classes in the dog world of show. I showed American Cockers in the AKC US of A, under the kennel name Triple Image Cockers  , my parents and my dog's went to the West Minster show every year with the success of the final cut each year (I am so proud :wiggle ). My parents had a male and femal Cocker that were number one in the country for a few years (different times) and their offspring were some of the top cockers in the breed, we had one of the first 6 month old cockers to take home a five point major in the all breed judging group (Scottsdale,AZ).
I obviously am not familiar with the collie breed to a certain extent having not bred them or even shown them but, I have never heard of people showing pet quality in JR handling (?) well, maybe in Collies I guess :crazy ... As for Cockers one can tell a truly outstanding dog at birth, as you know most litters need time to mature to tell which are show and which are good quality pets, we always kept all pup's until six months as to tell which were for show. 
PS. Just wanted to say I will be off the forum for a bit as you can see by the timing of this post due to my brother has come to visit from Colorado :wiggle , I will catch up soon  .


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Collie pups from a registered litter can be shown in a local club puppy match only. This is an affair like a family picnic for club members and very young pups. This gives the pup practice, and there is also a junior handling event. The youngsters and pups learn how to behave in the show ring. This helps the breeder or prospective owner to see the pup's personality in the ring. Even at 8 weeks, some pups don't like to show, and others act like professionl models in love with the camera. They have a "look at me" attitude. 

Only when the pup has its registered name and is of the required age, is it permitted at an AKC show.


----------

