# Wet food drying if left out



## fusion (May 7, 2009)

Our cat likes to eat a bit, wait a while, eat some more, wait, etc. This essentially means leaving her wet food out in her bowl for many hours. After a while, the food starts to dry out and become a bit crusty. Is it a problem for her to eat it?


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Seems nasty to me. Personally, I teach my cats to eat their food up when it's offered. No food left available. If you leave it out and they snack, they are never hungry so they never learn to eat at mealtimes. Cats not being grazers, their pancreas is constantly being stimulated as well, which is hard on that organ (and which may lead to diabetes, although as you're feeding canned instead of dry your risk is lessened).

If you want to teach your kitty to eat at mealtimes, I would start by offering a small amt of food 3X a day. Leave it for 30 min and then pick it up, and either refrigerate it or toss it. Eventually you'll go to 2X a day but it's easier on the cat used to snacking if you offer 3X a day to start. All cats eventually learn that they just need to eat it when it's offered or it goes away!


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

Sometimes my guys are really hungry, sometimes they ain't  This morning there was nothing left for me to worry about. Yesterday they ate about half before I went to work. When I got home about half of the remainder was still there; hard and crusty and nasty. It gets to a point where they won;t go near it. When I'm around during the day I'll leave it out for about 4 hours before I pitch it. Also when I'm around, and it's still out, I'll mix it up with a fork to keep the crust away. My GF thinks I'm nuts


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## fusion (May 7, 2009)

@hoofmaiden: I tried that strategy for a while. Maybe she would have learned "eventually," but eventually can be a long time.

@kwarendorf: Almost all of that sounds familiar  (It's my wife who thinks I'm nuts  )

I guess my main question is should I trust her instincts not to eat something that's bad for her? Is eating somewhat nasty food something that is likely to hurt her?


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

fusion said:


> @hoofmaiden: I tried that strategy for a while. Maybe she would have learned "eventually," but eventually can be a long time.


Here's the thing. . . I do NOT think it's normal for cats not to be hungry at mealtimes. If you try to put them on meal feedings and they still pick, then IMO something is WRONG. In the case of my cat Calvin, who started doing this -- not cleaning up all his meals, being picky, etc. -- it was IBD. The more I learn about feline nutrition the more I think that IBD is, in many cats, a normal response to an inappropriate diet. For many cats, they don't develop extreme IBD symptoms -- my vet kept telling me that "nothing" was wrong w/ Calvin b/c his labwork looked fine. But he went from being kinda picky to being even pickier (and we tried canned, kibble, various flavors, etc. w/ me catering to him right and left), and I finally decided that being NOT hungry = SICK. When I put him on B-12 he picked up at ONCE (this indicates malapsorption problems), and when I put him on raw he never looked back. Pickiness disappeared, he started eating like a horse, and now I have to watch his weight!

Just saying that I think it's potentially dangerous to fall into the "my cat is picky" trap. Carnivores should be ravenously hungry at mealtimes as all mine are now. To not be that way is just not normal.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

The cat we had growing up clearly greatly preferred the canned cat food dried and crusty. For a while Mom would try to take it away and replace it with fresh food and Farrah would look at her like, "Hey! Just when it was perfectly seasoned!"

I don't think it's that she wasn't hungry at mealtimes (although some cats are much more food-oriented than others). It's just that her "mealtime" wasn't when we put the food down.

I don't know about bacteria, although cats had a much shorted digestive tract than we do and so can deal with bacteria a lot better. And cooked food in general keeps better even for humans then we think about it keeping now. Nothing bad every happened to Farrah because of it, but of course the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." :shrug:


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## fusion (May 7, 2009)

@hoofmaiden, she's definitely hungry at mealtimes. She whines for about an hour before mealtime. Once I put the food out, she'll quickly eat about half of it. Sometimes she'll finish within the hour, sometimes it takes her many hours. I almost never throw out food. She seems healthy.

From other posts in this thread (and elsewhere), her behavior sounds common. Not that common necessarily means healthy.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

fusion said:


> @hoofmaiden, she's definitely hungry at mealtimes. She whines for about an hour before mealtime. Once I put the food out, she'll quickly eat about half of it. Sometimes she'll finish within the hour, sometimes it takes her many hours. I almost never throw out food. She seems healthy.
> 
> From other posts in this thread (and elsewhere), her behavior sounds common. Not that common necessarily means healthy.


Well, how much are you giving her at each meal? If it's 2-3 oz or so she should eat it all up. Perhaps you're giving her more than she can eat. In that case, just don't put so much out--put out 2-3 oz or so twice a day, which she should eat up. Then less goes to waste, and she's not smelling the food all day long when she walks by (which unnaturally stimulates the pancreas).


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Fay held out for over 36 hours to get dry food when offered all sorts of canned and wet food.


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## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

I'll agree with hoofmaiden that it's worth the effort to get the kitties on a regular feeding schedule. I had to do it, because I feed half and half wet and dry, and if I left dry out Fern simply wouldn't eat the wet. It did take a while, but once they adjusted to mealtimes they started pretty much always gobbling up their food all at once.

If they don't eat all of the wet food at once, I will put just enough water in the bowl to keep the food from drying out, and they get about an hour before I throw out whatever is left. Since I'm a cheap Bohemian, I've paid extremely close attention to how much they eat so I give them the right amount and I don't end up having to throw any out. And once I started adding the water, I found that Fergie actually prefers her food this way, so it's my regular routine with her bowl. 

It seems there are a fair amount of people who have left wet food out for hours without any negative results. I tried that a few times, but stopped after Fergie finished the food at three in the morning one night, it didn't agree with her, she jumped on the bed to tell us about it, and threw up on my feet. :roll:


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Having a cat who is willing to eat crusty dried puke from another cat and never got sick from it, I don't worry about how long food is out overly much. Yes...that would be everybody's little darling, the one you guys think is such and adorable angel...


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Frogs, lizards, bugs. Maybe crusty dried food could cause a problem but it seems like if my kids eat anything bad it just ends up back on the carpet later.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

The other day Misty threw up her breakfast and was clearly prepared to eat the results. Ew, ICK, Misty. If it didn't agree with you the first time I don't think a second trip around is going to help.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I put the food out and leave for work. Sometimes it's gone when I get home, sometimes it's not. Lately, the ferals get the leftovers, mixed in with flavors my girls don't really care for.

I've started leaving less out, though, when I leave for work. They sleep most of the day, and then they_ are _hungry when I get home. Plus, the food is almost always gone now, depending on the flavor. But I see no danger in leaving the food out all day. It's been three years and they're all still alive and well.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

You guys will all do what you choose to do. . . I just feel the need to point out that feeding this way means that you really have no idea whatsoever what each cat is eating. And you won't know if someone is off his/her food for days or even weeks. 

True meal feeding -- measured amounts that the cat will eat up readily in a short period of time and separating cats for their meals -- is IMO the safest, best way to feed b/c not only are you sure of the exact amount each cat is eating daily (so you can adjust that amount based on weight loss or gain), but you will also catch problems, ranging from UTIs to kidney disease to IBD, and beyond, within hours, not days or weeks. 

It was when I got slack with meal-feeding (after many years of sticking to it), b/c Calvin suddenly seemed "picky," that we got into trouble. I started leaving food available between meals "hoping" he would eat more instead of realizing that if he wasn't eating up his food when it was offered, there was a problem. I'm lucky that in this case the problem turned out to be IBD, which was completely reversed by switching to raw feeding. But it could have beeen worse, and it's the last time I'll make that mistake. Just asking folks to keep these things in mind. . .


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## furryfriends251 (Jan 1, 2009)

I have to feed Mikey several small meals of wet food a day. He isn't to bright and if he gets to much wet food he will still eat it in 30 seconds flat, walk away from the dish, and throw up. He has done this one several times and hasn't figured it out...


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## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

furryfriends251 said:


> I have to feed Mikey several small meals of wet food a day. He isn't to bright and if he gets to much wet food he will still eat it in 30 seconds flat, walk away from the dish, and throw up. He has done this one several times and hasn't figured it out...


This is exactly what Fern does if she gets too much dry of if we're late with the night snack because we've been out. I've noticed that playing immediately after eating does wonders for settling their stomachs and preventing them from throwing up, so I try to play with them for at least a few minutes after each meal, or bring out their favorite puff balls for them to entertain themselves if I don't have the time. They have NEVER thrown up if they've played right after eating, it only happens on days they eat and then just sit and do nothing.


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

doodlebug said:


> Having a cat who is willing to eat crusty dried puke from another cat and never got sick from it, I don't worry about how long food is out overly much. Yes...that would be everybody's little darling, the one you guys think is such and adorable angel...


Ewwwwww!

I don't have the issue of not knowing which cat is eating what, but I do leave the wet food out both in the morning and at night. My theory is, if I take it away after 30 minutes, he may figure out that _he has to snarf down more than he really wants to eat_, in order to not lose any of it. I don't think that's desirable either, to force him to eat more than he wants to for fear of losing it. I figure if I leave it out, he can snack in little amounts whenever his body tells him he should. I'll trust nature on this one.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

October said:


> My theory is, if I take it away after 30 minutes, he may figure out that _he has to snarf down more than he really wants to eat_, in order to not lose any of it. I don't think that's desirable either, to force him to eat more than he wants to for fear of losing it. I figure if I leave it out, he can snack in little amounts whenever his body tells him he should. I'll trust nature on this one.


But . . . how is that "nature"? In nature, a cat kills and pretty much has to eat up the mouse or bird. He can't 'snack' on it. He makes a few kills a day, and he eats what he kills pretty quickly, cats being cats and not, like wolves, making large kills as a pack and returning to it for several days.


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

What seems unnatural is putting food down and requiring him to eat it in less time than he normally would. 

That reminds me of what my Mom said about her Depression era childhood, when they wouldn't have _dreamt _of not cleaning their plates. Now, generations later when food is plentiful, the conventional wisdom is that if you're full, you should leave food on your plate. I'm still controlling the quantity he gets overall, but I'm all about affording Murphy as many freedoms as he can have, one of which is deciding how often he wants to nibble.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

I really am just discussing this w/ you -- I'm not attacking or picking on you.  Just making sure that's clear.

But a few points . . . first, cats are not human beings and I don't think that emotional issues re: food can really be extrapolated to them. Second, cats simple didn't evolve to be snackers. Human beings did . . . we are descended from animals who eat a little almost all the time. But cats did not.

So it may make you feel better b/c that's how YOU want to eat, but it's not really what his physiology set him up for.


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

That's an interesting point. The part I'm not sure about is this: does it _matter_ what their ancestors would have done in the wild? Cats in the wild do things a certain way out of instinct and necessity, but indoor, domesticated cats don't have the same circumstances or hardships. Cavemen had to leave the womenfolk and go shoot their food with bows and arrows. We don't, so we don't. We go to Safeway and spend hard-earned money on TV dinners. We're adapting to our circumstances.

I'm just not sure it's necessary or desirable to try to replicate conditions of outdoor life for our spoiled, cat bed-sleeping, treat-eating, camera-posing kitties.


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

October said:


> spoiled, cat bed-sleeping, treat-eating, camera-posing kitties.


You've met Franklin and Franny then, have you?


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

October said:


> That's an interesting point. The part I'm not sure about is this: does it _matter_ what their ancestors would have done in the wild? Cats in the wild do things a certain way out of instinct and necessity, but indoor, domesticated cats don't have the same circumstances or hardships. Cavemen had to leave the womenfolk and go shoot their food with bows and arrows. We don't, so we don't. We go to Safeway and spend hard-earned money on TV dinners. We're adapting to our circumstances.


Well, it matters to me.  That's why I feed raw, after all, b/c I think it does matter. My goal is to keep the lives of my indoor kitties as close to natural, given the fact that they live indoors and are protected, as possible.

Yeah, we eat TV dinners, but at what cost? Heart disease, obesity, etc. At least cats have me to make sure they don't eat junk, etc. -- wish I had someone doing that for ME, LOL!


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## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

October said:


> We're adapting to our circumstances.
> 
> I'm just not sure it's necessary or desirable to try to replicate conditions of outdoor life for our spoiled, cat bed-sleeping, treat-eating, camera-posing kitties.


I think this may be another area where Murphy has an advantage with being an only cat. Part of the reason my girls wolf down their food is so that they each get their share and it doesn't get stolen by the other one. Fergie would prefer to take her time with her dry food, but if she isn't done before Fern her sister will shove her head in and steal her food. It's the exact opposite with the wet food, and they have gotten to the point where they finish eating at about the same time, then look at each other, look back at their bowls, stand up, and trade spots to make sure the other's bowl is empty. 

I would think that in the wild this might also be the case - if the cat doesn't eat its kill quickly it risks a bigger and stronger predator coming along and taking it. Murphy, on the other hand, has the luxury of time, and knows he can enjoy his food any time without competition! Plus, you still know exactly what and how much he's eating, eliminating the confusion of figuring out who's picky or sick in multiple cat homes.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

WhiteKitties said:


> I think this may be another area where Murphy has an advantage with being an only cat. Part of the reason my girls wolf down their food is so that they each get their share and it doesn't get stolen by the other one. Fergie would prefer to take her time with her dry food, but if she isn't done before Fern her sister will shove her head in and steal her food.


This is pretty easy to prevent by feeding in separate rooms . . .!


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## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

hoofmaiden said:


> WhiteKitties said:
> 
> 
> > I think this may be another area where Murphy has an advantage with being an only cat. Part of the reason my girls wolf down their food is so that they each get their share and it doesn't get stolen by the other one. Fergie would prefer to take her time with her dry food, but if she isn't done before Fern her sister will shove her head in and steal her food.
> ...


Ehh, it's rarely an issue, and if I put one of them in another room they start batting at each other under the door and don't eat. As long as I'm in the kitchen they know the rules and if they start to look like they're going to misbehave a stern voicing of the appropriate name stops the instigator in her tracks!


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Diana, you're right.....it's a different scenario with one cat where there's no competition for food. If I had evidence that what I'm doing was hurting him somehow, sure, I'd stop right away.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I don't pick up food after 30 minutes or put them in separate rooms to eat, but I manage to know exactly how much each of them is eating...and its never gotten by me yet when one of them has been sick.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

But . . . How can you know if you're not home and food is available . . .?


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

hoofmaiden said:


> But . . . How can you know if you're not home and food is available . . .?


KittyCams!  I love my new iMac!


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Now there's my fantasy! We need kitty cams, just like people who put their dogs in doggie daycare can watch them from work. I'd do nothing but watch him all day. Errrr, there's the problem.


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

I can watch from work, but only if their sleeping on the couch in the back room


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I'm almost always home for at least one meal a day...dinner. And they typically don't ever leave more than a quarter of what gets put down, more often it's about 10%. By observation when I am home, I know it's not always the same cat who cleans the dishes, so it's pretty even distribution. So if I feed them in the morning and and leave knowing there was a little food in the dish I'm not too concerned. 

I do have one situation that I deal with...Maggie is a slow eater and was always getting pushed out of her dish by the other two. Then she would suck it down and puke it right back up. She's also very specific about her dish and spot on the floor, Holly could leave food in the dish, push Maggie out of hers and Maggie would not eat from Holly's dish. So Maggie decided (not me) that she wanted to eat in a different spot and that has worked out well, for some reason the other two respect it more than when she was fed with them.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Is it in fact the case that African and European wildcats regularly stuff themselves with more than they want to eat, because if they don't eat it quickly it will be taken away?

That seems plausible, but I can think of at least two other plausible alternatives. One being that they bury the food and come back eat it later (assuming it's still around, which presumably it at least sometimes is). The other is that catching prey isn't so hard that the cat needs to eat yourself sick when he does it (rather he eats as much of the mouse as he feels like, and if he gets hungry later, he catches another mouse.)


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Bethany said:


> Is it in fact the case that African and European wildcats regularly stuff themselves with more than they want to eat, because if they don't eat it quickly it will be taken away?


Nope.  Didn't suggest that. But felines (most of them, barring lions) do not, unlike canids, hunt in packs. Hence, for the most part they bring down small prey that is meal-sized. Hence, the recommendation to provide meals the size of a mouse.  My cats eat their mouse-sized meals (often really MICE, LOL) and don't leave a bit. They aren't "stuffing" themselves but they are satisfied with that amount. 

I think that many folks are providing more food than their cats need or can eat in one sitting. So the cats aren't finishing it, and are "snacking" during the day. Which leads to their not really ever being truly hungry, which leads them not finishing it all, etc. etc. Feeding 2-3 times a day the amount that the cat can comfortably eat in one sitting, and then not leaving food available to keep repeatedly stimulating the pancreas into action (which can result in diabetes) is a more natural way to feed IMO.


> That seems plausible, but I can think of at least two other plausible alternatives. One being that they bury the food and come back eat it later (assuming it's still around, which presumably it at least sometimes is). T


Unlike dogs, cats really don't do this. They bury unwanted food to cover the smell, but generally don't return to eat it. Cats are much less likely to eat old/spoiled food than dogs.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

They get a third of a 5.5 oz can, which is a reasonable amount for one sitting. Some days the plates are clean, others there are some bits and pieces and occasionally a good size lump. For morning meals, if the weather is nice, Kobi is more interested in going out on the screened porch than eating. He'll eat a couple bites, go stand by the door, spend 5 minutes outside then come in and finish off, maybe leaving a little maybe not. Typically the food is gone in an hour, no more than 2 hours


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

hoofmaiden said:


> Nope.  Didn't suggest that. But felines (most of them, barring lions) do not, unlike canids, hunt in packs. Hence, for the most part they bring down small prey that is meal-sized. Hence, the recommendation to provide meals the size of a mouse.  My cats eat their mouse-sized meals (often really MICE, LOL) and don't leave a bit. They aren't "stuffing" themselves but they are satisfied with that amount.


I guess my question is, what's the empirical basis for thinking that taking away a meal is more "natural" than letting the cat eat it as it pleases?

Do African wildcats usually lose their prey if they don't eat it all in a set amount of time? (I could see that being the case.)

Do they usually have to hunt at set times instead of being able to hunt when they feel like eating? (I would actually have guessed that the opposite is true -- that the cats don't hunt when they're not hungry -- but I don't know that. It's an empirical question.)


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

hoofmaiden said:


> My goal is to keep the lives of my indoor kitties as close to natural, given the fact that they live indoors and are protected, as possible.


Cats didn't have kitty litter in the wild, so I'm guessing that you let your cats poop where they want, when they want, in your house?


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

As I try to compose myself to type after reading Marie's post . . . .

That's the point, exactly. We have little beasties in our house who did have ancestors in the wild, but I didn't get Murphy from the Serengeti, I got him from the Annapolis SPCA (where no one batted an eye that he was kept in a cage 23.5 hours a day). He's eating food that was made in a factory in Parsippany, New Jersey, no doubt. He's sleeping on the top rung of a cat tree that's covered in faux-fleece. He has providers who worry about his happiness. So yeah, what we're left with is some amalgam of the ancient and current, and we're all adapting to each other.


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## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

October said:


> So yeah, what we're left with is some amalgam of the ancient and current, and we're all adapting to each other.


Heck, I've got a kitty who plays fetch like a dog, loses fights with a stuffed cow, and pees standing up so that she ends up pawing at the plastic lid to the box in a futile attempt to cover her scent..... Yeah, not much left of the ancient wild cat in that one! :lol: 

Even if we kept our cats outside all the time to fend for themselves as their wild ancestors did, they still wouldn't be that close to their heritage, given that their ancestors didn't have to worry about being smashed by giant steel machines that belch toxic fumes, or the destructive species that created them!


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm not sure where the argument here is, really. I would hope that it is ALL our goals to keep things as natural *as possible,* given the restrictions of indoor life. Litterboxes are actually quite natural -- which is why most cats who are not ill take to them with almost no instruction! Cats dig in loose soil, eliminate, and bury their waste in nature: we provide the same thing in the house. <shrug> 

The fact is that commercial cat food of any description is far from natural anyway, and that may well be why so many here say their cats don't eat it up when it's offered. I don't know. I do know that my cats never leave a single bite of their raw meals, and I offer amounts that are approximately what they can comfortably eat in one sitting. I actually try NOT to feed on a set schedule--you can get "hungry vomiting" (bile) when you do that, as well as stress when the meal is late, bolting the food, etc. So sometimes I feed at 5 p.m., sometimes 8 p.m., sometimes 9 p.m. They don't beg or get stressed out b/c they don't expect it at a certain time. 

I understand that the attempt to stay close to nature isn't necessarily high on everyone's priority list.  Is is on mine, as regards my dogs, cats, horses, tortoise, etc., and I've put a lot of effort into researching, learning, and experimenting. I'm just offering my experience and research on these issues. Take it or leave it, I guess.


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

hoofmaiden said:


> I understand that the attempt to stay close to nature isn't necessarily high on everyone's priority list.


Sometimes agreeing to disagree works best


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

I guess my question was whether the statements about what is "natural" for a cat are based on reading empirical studies of the African Wildcat (the wild ancestor of our domestic cats) or if they're based on personal speculation. :shrug:


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Excellent question. They are based primarily on observations and studies of feral domestic cats and how they behave in the "wild." I'm not aware of such studies of predatory behavior in African wild cats but will look into this. There's a TON of such work that has been done on wolves (which we extrapolate to dogs) so one would think this work is out there. I'll get on that and get back to you!


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