# Out of Ideas...Out of Hope



## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

I'm writing in despiration. We rescued a kitty last summer, knowing he had a history of not using the litter box, so we started him off in a small room, giving him more space as he did well. Unfortunately that has not stayed true. He's peeing in several places in our home, and as soon as we clean one and block his access, he finds another. Below are the things we've done.



New boxes
yes I've read the sticky on urine problems, didn't see anything "new" that we haven't done
More boxes
Using Natures Miracle Urine Destroyer (& blacklight)
FULL vet workup (all negative)
put him on amitriptyline (for about 10 days now)
Gone back to locking him in small room -- which stresses him out and only works while he's in there - this is NOT a practical solution as it would need to be indefinite
Using Cat Attract litter
Changing litter brands
Changing litter depth
Using HUGE litter boxes
Cleaning boxes often
He's eating blue buffalo wilderness with water (to increase water consumption - unfortunately this only means more pee on the floor)
He uses the litter boxes, but at this point once a day or so he's NOT
he has pooped outside the box but only a few times
We do have another cat, but he is a kitten who has only been here a few months. The 2nd cat has not affected the frequency of inappropriate urination at all, and I'm afraid the kitten is going to learn this behavior and I will have to give them both up.

Basically we have done EVERYTHING that i can find to do. And if he wasn't my fiances' cat, he would already be out of this house. And I worked in shelters and I work in rescue, so I'm certainly not the person to ever give up on a pet that I take in, but this is completely outrageous and I refuse to clean up cat pee for the next 10-15 years. 

Is there ANY hope?


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Has he been to the vet for a thorough checkup?


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## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

he says: 
FULL vet workup (all negative) 

I can see you have tried lots...perhaps he needs retrained? I am sure someone can help you here..


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Oh, I'm sorry. I see it now.


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

I had a cysto done on him--a full U/A and kidney workup. Nothing out of the ordinary.


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

Is he declawed?

Have you tried using something like shredded paper in the litter box? 

Retraining might be useful - get a large crate, big enough for a shelf to be put up (for a blanket to be put on it), a large litter box, and a food and water dish. Put this large crate in a fairly central area where you are often so he isn't lonely. He doesn't get let out of the crate for a while (never done this before, I would assume it needs to be months?).

Goodluck.


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## Ritzpg (Dec 7, 2010)

It seems you have tried everything, and I'd be at my wits end too. 
I would continue to work with your vet on getting the right _combination_ of drugs for behavioral problems. And it may in fact be a combination, not only the one drug. Plus most anti-depressants/anti anxiety drugs take a while to become effective, like a month.
Good luck!


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

We have not tried shredded paper--i would think the smell of that would make things worse. I can't imagine that being sanitary.
He is front declawed. He came to us that way (I do not agree with it).
We tried the "retraining" thing from the very beginning with him. He started out in a small bathroom and progressed to a bedroom and eventually on to other rooms. When we realized he wad peeing elsewhere we went back to the small space. This went on for several months. He does fine with the box that way, but as soon as he gets more space (or escapes his confinement) he does ok for a while and then it starts all over. He does not do well confined now that he knows what he is missing. He yowls all day and night and tries to escape and run and hide every chance he gets. It is not at all practical, nor do I think it does any good, since he is so obviously stressed about it. Not to mention it has never 'fixed' the behavior.


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## Lenkolas (Jan 18, 2011)

Oh my....

If I were you, I would try the big crate. Do you live in an apartment or a house? 'cause according to your description, he will cry and cry if you put him there inside. But if you can survive the crying and just keep him there, he'll have no other choice but to go in the litter box. 

A friend of mine had a rescued kitten inside a room, and the little one refused to go inside the litter box. He (my friend) covered all the floor with this plastic...I think you call it stretch film or stretch wrap? (sorry). I thought he was crazy, but the kitten started using the litter box because -I guess- it was too uncomfortable for him to go over a plastic surface...

Another suggestion I have is Bach flowers. I did not believe in them _at all_. But the vet recommended a Bach flower treatment for my cat Gatito who is extremely nervous. he has been under treatment for 2 months now and I've seen some amazing changes (he even purrs now...just for 5 minute and then he bites again, but hey, it is an improvement  ) It could be coincidental, but who knows...

Good luck! Hang in there! atback


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

I've been going through similar things with one of my four cats for a while. I've found a few unconventional things that help the interim step. So, you know he's using the box appropriately in the small room, he needs slightly more freedom but not too much.

Our solution is that when we are home Doran was harnessed and tethered to a cat post. Within he reach he had a litter box, toys, and attention. (no water or he'd make a lake...but I would offer it to him periodically) We started him with a range of about 4 feet, he had about 2 perches and the floor to lay on, and was always fairly close to the litter box. When I brought him out of his room I'd put him in the litterbox and say "Box." Then I'd block the door and wait, usually he'd pee right away, problem solved. if he didn't I'd let him out of the box, but watch him very closely until he did pee in the box. When he did pee he'd get either a small treat or a big fuss of attention.

Once he'd gone 1 month with no mistakes we lengthened the tether to 8 feet.

After a month of no accidents with the longer tether I allowed him off the tether but VERY closely supervised and he HAD to pee in the box first. I'd watch him really closely, like follow him around the whole time he was off the tether, and if I thought he was too interested in smelling something I'd distract him with a toy and say "Leave it".

I know that 'my way' isn't the way people usually work with cats, but I've found it really effective. Doran has mostly stopped spraying and any time he has sprayed it's been on a day where I've been more slack about the litter boxes and supervision than I should.

The catch to 'my way' is that you have to start with getting the cat used to a harness, and be willing to spend some serious time changing the behavior. It's more work, but IMO it has a better likelyhood of working than going from a confining room to freedom! with no in between.


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

Sometimes declawing can cause pain and therefore an aversion to the litter box. Have you considereing putting him on a trial of lowdose pain meds (prescribed by vet) to see if this helps? The idea behind the shredded paper (or somesuch) is that it is soft on his feet (the declawed portions) - so the soft paper in a box he knows is for potty would entice him to use it more often. You would clearly have to clean this 2-3 times a day, but better that then your carpets right?  Has the vet looked into doing a "clean up" job on his front toes? Maybe the vet who preformed the procedure left some nerve endings or something he could fix?

That certainly is too bad about the crate.


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## my5kitties (Sep 13, 2005)

audreys mum said:


> Diana, good on you for trying so many things. Id be with you though. There'd be no shame in surrendering your cat at this stage, as you've exhausted all avenues. *Despite what some say on this particular forum, toileting behavioural problems are not 'fixable'.* If it was a dog, then yes, re-training is a good option, with cats- No! Seriously, you cannot get rid of this particular problem. So many people have told me this (as has experience) including staff who work at shelters in my area. This is the reason that our Audrey is on her final chance with us :-( One more pee and she's gone. Such a hard decision, but your dead right, one cant live what that problem (or SMELL) forever! Good luck. All the best to you.


Rather presumptuous of you don't you think? You've only just joined Cat Forum and you can make a judgment like that? Though I've been fortunate enough not to have had any cats having the issues that OP's cat is having, there are others here who have had success in getting their cat to stop peeing inappropriately.

OP, have you tried cleaning the places that your cat pees with an enzymatic cleaner like Nature's Miracle? If a cat can still smell the pee, even though you may not, he/she will continue to pee in that spot. Nature's Miracle (or other cleaners like it) will break down enzymes in cat urine so that it is completely cleaned up. 

Also, have you tried a cat pheromone diffuser like Feliway? Maybe your cat is stressed and the Feliway may help calm him/her down.


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## Lenkolas (Jan 18, 2011)

It CAN be fixed. It requires a lot of determination and perseverance, but there's no such thing as "this behavior cannot be fixed". It is an uninformed generalization.
I'm sure you have some other tricks to try before giving up. Good luck and _ánimo_! I'm sure more people in this forum can help you with great ideas.


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## Meezer_lover (Apr 19, 2011)

Question:

When you let the cat have the run of the house, and use mutiple litter boxes, are the additional boxes in areas where he spends time (or not very far away)?

I guess I'm wondering if litter box placement could be part of the explanation...?

I'm no expert, but have dealt with a few pee problems with our kitten.


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

Actually, *a lot* of people have "fixed" their cats with our advice, so I don't know what experience that is coming off of. 

The difference with the crate is that he is with you in the main room, not locked away where you can't see him. If he is in there for a few weeks, not days, his behavior will be retrained totally.


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## wondercat (Oct 11, 2011)

Omg dont give the kitty an ultimatum, I know its hard. I'm with you I have trained some cats at the shelter. It's annoying to clean up after them and the smell can make you sick. But it's so worth it once they get retrained. It's completely possible, it will just take a lot of patience, I agree with previous posters about the declawing, some kitties just hate the texture of the litter and need something softer. we use newspaper on top of our kitty littler when we are trying to retrain. and giving treats when he does use the littler does wonders. Good luck dont give up


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

my4kitties said:


> OP, have you tried cleaning the places that your cat pees with an enzymatic cleaner like Nature's Miracle? If a cat can still smell the pee, even though you may not, he/she will continue to pee in that spot. Nature's Miracle (or other cleaners like it) will break down enzymes in cat urine so that it is completely cleaned up.



Unfortunately after my last few posts we found out he'd been peeing in a lot more places than we originally thought  One place in particular is located mere FEET from his main litter box. It's also the place where he used to nap most often, so I'm really confused why he would start using it as a toilet. I SOAKED this spot with NM (Nature's Miracle Urine Destroyer) - I'd say I used about 1/2 gallon on a spot about the size of a dinner plate. I resprayed at least 4 times over several weeks. And it still smells. I can smell it, so I KNOW he can smell it. We added yet another litter box in the adjacent room, to no avail. The place he uses most frequently is carpeted and in a hallway, and it's not possible to put a box there. Well...possible, but it's not happening. Having a litter box nearby has never kept him from using the floor, whether it was 5 inches or 15 feet from a clean box.

I wanted to give his meds time to "work"....and even after increasing his dose he is still peeing on the floor if we let him out of his room. Right now he is living in one room of the house. Unfortunately he doesn't get much if any attention or exercise and I don't feel like it's any quality of life, but he's just not giving us any options. As long as he is confined in there he uses the box 100% of the time. 



my4kitties said:


> Also, have you tried a cat pheromone diffuser like Feliway? Maybe your cat is stressed and the Feliway may help calm him/her down.


I have tried a similar product, it's in spray form, but I've never seen any improvement while using it.


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

Meezer_lover said:


> Question:
> 
> When you let the cat have the run of the house, and use mutiple litter boxes, are the additional boxes in areas where he spends time (or not very far away)?
> 
> ...


Yes - our house is 3 levels but most of our time is spent on the main floor, which is only about 1200 sq ft. There are two boxes in that space, he is gated off from the upstairs and downstairs, so I don't think that's his problem (I wish it was!)


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

So...does anyone want a really sweet and beautiful, but high-maintenance kitty? I'm kidding of course...but maybe not. It's getting stressful to always worry if he escapes his room, or always wondering if we need to blacklight the whole house because someone let the cat out for 15 minutes. Not to mention any other animal that comes in the house might (and has) tried to mark OVER where he's peed.


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## Vivid Dawn (May 31, 2010)

Unfortunately, I have no advice. You have obviously tried everything, and it doesn't seem to be working. Though maybe you could try Feliway diffuser, instead of the spray...it might work, as it is continuous, not just for a little while after you spritz some on somewhere. There's also a collar (I'm trying that next).

I'm having about the same problem with Nebbie. She will pee in the box, but not poop...I have 4 litter boxes in one room, but it doesn't matter to her. I guess it's not so bad, as solids I can just pick up and put in the trash. But lately she's had diarrhea, and it sticks in the carpet!
Paizly also has some peeing issues, but that's because of a deformed pelvis and problems with the nerves to the bladder.
I have resorted to just saving up money and I'm going to have all my carpet removed and put in solid floors (hardwood, vinyl, tile, whatever is cheapest). My friend's house is all solid floors, and SOOOO much easier to clean up! Any messes of pee, diarrhea, vomit...just spritz with some cleaner and wipe up with a paper towel - done! No scrubbing carpets and soaking with chemicals and vacuuming, etc.
I can't wait until I have solid floors!


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## Vivid Dawn (May 31, 2010)

P.S. About the declawed issue... if he IS in pain, I would recommend Nature's Miracle corn litter. It is soft, like sand (rather than gritty like clay). That might help feel better under his paws.
I actually use Fresh Results, which is the same thing...but only some Wal-Marts have it. I get it because I like the pine scent, AND it's half the price of NM.


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

Vivid Dawn said:


> P.S. About the declawed issue... if he IS in pain, I would recommend Nature's Miracle corn litter. It is soft, like sand (rather than gritty like clay). That might help feel better under his paws.
> I actually use Fresh Results, which is the same thing...but only some Wal-Marts have it. I get it because I like the pine scent, AND it's half the price of NM.



I admit this is not something we've yet checked into with him. My line of thought is that if he is really that uncomfortable with using the litter box that he would not be using it at all....? Furthermore, it is going to be nearly impossible to "test" becasue in order to do so, we would have to let him out of his room and in the house, which I am obviously hesitant (pretty much unwilling at this point) because of past and recent experience. As long as he is in his room and no where else, he DOES use the litter box.

Is he doomed to spend the rest of his life locked in a small room? Granted there are worse fates for a cat, but it doesn't seem fair to him and it is equally inconvenient for us.

I will look into some finer or softer litters none the less...thank you for the recommendation.


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## Pixall (Oct 18, 2011)

Forgive me if you answered this somewhere, but is he neutered? If so, at what age was the procedure done? It could be hormonal... Kyra marks, and we think it is hormonal. Vet work says it is nothing medical. =/ She limits herself to plastic(weird cat) and towels for the most part, and she is getting snipped ASAP. If that doesn't work, we just have to pick up the litter trap mats and deal with her peeing on the bathtub mat. :?

Good luck, my friend.


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes he was neutered in march or April of 2009. We estimated his age to be approximately one year of age at the time, as he was picked up as a stray. We also wondered if it was marking, but it is not a typical "spraying" behavior, he is squatting and peeing and emptying his bladder - so its not a quick squirt. That's not to say he isn't marking for sure, but it doesnt appear that way to us.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

I like the suggestion of _librarychick_'s method of training, tho I have not tried it. Another thing you might do which I used to do with my stud cats is to take them outside every day on a harness and leash. At the time we had a 1/2 acre property and they used to like to walk the perimeter of it, and spray at intervals all around the property. I mostly followed where they wanted to go. After a walk around they were content to come back into the house. This seemed to get their urge to spray out of their system, and they didn't spray inside, but used the litter box well.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

fanofdmb84 said:


> Yes he was neutered in march or April of 2009. We estimated his age to be approximately one year of age at the time, as he was picked up as a stray. We also wondered if it was marking, but it is not a typical "spraying" behavior, he is squatting and peeing and emptying his bladder - so its not a quick squirt. That's not to say he isn't marking for sure, but it doesnt appear that way to us.


Hmm, that's odd. Generally if they're squatting it's because they can't hold it, or there's a medical issue. You've taken him to a vet and UTIs have been ruled out...

When he's free in the house where is he peeing? Close to his normal sleeping spots, near the litterbox? I'm wondering if he's mildly incontinent...

You're right that squatting isn't a typical marking behavior, usually that just means peeing. TBH once Doran started spraying he even pees standing up. It's kinda funny, he'll start squatting, and his bum will gradually raise. It's a good thing I have very tall boxes!

If he is reliably using the box in that tiny room I would be tempted to harness train him and see if giving him a slightly larger, yet still controlled, area would still work. The catch being that he has to be comfortable wearing a harness for it to work. I know it seems odd, but I know it works and it's logical. Going from one room to an entire house is usually a big change. It's a lot more space, and therefore, a lot more room for mistakes.


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

librarychick said:


> Hmm, that's odd. Generally if they're squatting it's because they can't hold it, or there's a medical issue. You've taken him to a vet and UTIs have been ruled out...
> 
> When he's free in the house where is he peeing? Close to his normal sleeping spots, near the litterbox? I'm wondering if he's mildly incontinent...
> 
> ...


Yes he was checked for UTIs and the like. He doesn't leak urine, pretty sure he's not incontinent, he's very deliberate about it, we've caught him a few times just as he was about to pee. Unfortunately he's not the brightest kitty ever, so he hasn't "learned" anything from being hastily relocated in that manner.

He is partially harness trained. Generally when he's wearing it he just lays down and pouts! I have let him out on a few occasions, tethered to a stool in the kitchen while I'm making dinner, for example. He usually pees on carpet (only once was it on a hard surface and that was when we first got him). The main spot is approximately 10ft from a litter box, another spot is less than 2ft from the box. A few other places were further away. Some are places he used to sleep, some are out of the way places he doesn't spend much time. We haven't seen a pattern, except that he is going back to some of the same spots. Why he chose them in the first place is a mystery. We moved into this house about a year ago, and of course all the carpet/pads were new so we know there weren't other animal "smells" setting him off.

Perhaps I should mention he was adopted and surrendered again before we got him for this same reason. So yes, we knew he had some issues going into it, but we thought it was because he had spent a lot of time in a barn and perhaps just never learned to use the box correctly, which is why we spent so much time 'training' him in the beginning by confining him to a small space and gradually increasing it...which worked to a point, but there were still accidents, and they increased in frequency as time went on. I assumed we could FIX the problem. That's turning out not to be the case, unfortunately.



Thanks everyone for your suggestions, please keep them coming. I really don't want to face the idea of surrendering him or putting him to sleep for a behavioral problem like this...coming here and posting has really been keeping me sane!


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## asrowley (Dec 17, 2011)

We once had a cat that did that, it sounds rude, but we'd grab her up, make her smell the urine (from a little far away not rubbing her nose in it) And say a stern NO! The take her to the litter box, put her in and say YES! We did that along with gradually increasing the room size, etc. She ended up litter trained. It wasn't easy but we got there.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

After reading all the posts it seems to me that, for whatever reason your boy has anxiety, when he is out of his room. As you mentioned, he's been checked out for UTI, etc. and he uses the box fine _in_ his room, so it isn't "box" or "litter" problem. It is behavioral, and when he's out of his "safe" room he feels the need to mark other places. Have you discussed with your vet about putting him on _Clomicalm_? I've not had any personal experience with this particular medication, but I have read that it can be successful with cats who want to pee in other places other than their litter box.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

fanofdmb84 said:


> Yes he was checked for UTIs and the like. He doesn't leak urine, pretty sure he's not incontinent, he's very deliberate about it, we've caught him a few times just as he was about to pee. Unfortunately he's not the brightest kitty ever, so he hasn't "learned" anything from being hastily relocated in that manner.
> 
> He is partially harness trained. Generally when he's wearing it he just lays down and pouts! I have let him out on a few occasions, tethered to a stool in the kitchen while I'm making dinner, for example. He usually pees on carpet (only once was it on a hard surface and that was when we first got him). The main spot is approximately 10ft from a litter box, another spot is less than 2ft from the box. A few other places were further away. Some are places he used to sleep, some are out of the way places he doesn't spend much time. We haven't seen a pattern, except that he is going back to some of the same spots. Why he chose them in the first place is a mystery. We moved into this house about a year ago, and of course all the carpet/pads were new so we know there weren't other animal "smells" setting him off.
> 
> ...


You've convinced me it isn't incontinence. In that case the only thing left is that he's never learned to use the box properly. IMO that means you should start from square one, like with a puppy. Assume he will have accidents and work to prevent them. Don't punish him, teach him what to do, and be extremely patient. It would be a long road, but there would be hope.



asrowley said:


> We once had a cat that did that, it sounds rude, but we'd grab her up, make her smell the urine (from a little far away not rubbing her nose in it) And say a stern NO! The take her to the litter box, put her in and say YES! We did that along with gradually increasing the room size, etc. She ended up litter trained. It wasn't easy but we got there.


NOT this. Cats are not people. Rubbing his nose in it would just convince him you were unpredictable. If you catch him in the act very calmly pick him up and put him in the box. Calmness and immediate reactions are what will teach him, not punishment for something he clearly doesn't understand.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

asrowley said:


> We once had a cat that did that, it sounds rude, but we'd grab her up, make her smell the urine (from a little far away not rubbing her nose in it) And say a stern NO!





librarychick said:


> NOT this. Cats are not people. Rubbing his nose in it would just convince him you were unpredictable. If you catch him in the act very calmly pick him up and put him in the box. Calmness and immediate reactions are what will teach him, not punishment for something he clearly doesn't understand.


To be fair she did say NOT to rub his nose in it but regardless, I think 'grabbing' him up is still a bad idea. I agree that it makes them believe we are unpredictable and will ensure they will never have complete trust. 

Retraining does sound like what is needed. Small space so his options are limited and when you see an accident happening (it can't be after the fact) immediately put him where he should be and praise.


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## Squeakist (Nov 3, 2011)

could you move him to a room where he has access to an inclosed outside run? not sure if that would help or do anything, but if he went outside to do his business he could be praised/given treats


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## fanofdmb84 (Aug 29, 2009)

Squeakist said:


> could you move him to a room where he has access to an inclosed outside run? not sure if that would help or do anything, but if he went outside to do his business he could be praised/given treats



No, anything outdoors is not an option, for many reasons...mostly because he is terrified of being outside (apparently he's not much more comfortable indoors :fust)




catloverami said:


> After reading all the posts it seems to me that, for whatever reason your boy has anxiety, when he is out of his room. As you mentioned, he's been checked out for UTI, etc. and he uses the box fine _in_ his room, so it isn't "box" or "litter" problem. It is behavioral, and when he's out of his "safe" room he feels the need to mark other places. Have you discussed with your vet about putting him on _Clomicalm_? I've not had any personal experience with this particular medication, but I have read that it can be successful with cats who want to pee in other places other than their litter box.


I will ask our vet about that. He did mention "kitty Prozac" when we first went in, not sure if that's the same or similar, but he recommended we start with the ami because it's something we could give him "as needed" instead of daily, although until recently we were giving it to him daily anyway.


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