# Small, Almost Microscopic Rant



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

A couple thoughts have been building up in me over the months, and I’ve reached the point where I might implode if I don’t express them. Friendly debate is welcome.

First, I hate the thought of declawing as much as the next person (and the next person, and the next person….) I would never have a cat declawed, although I must admit that I’ve purposely adopted two declawed cats from the local SPCA. Here’s the thing. There have been a lot of comments on here about behavioral and health problems people can expect to have with declawed cats. They’re biters; they’re going to have health problems later on; they’re going to get arthritis; etc. I would hate to think we’re successful in warning people off adopting declawed cats from shelters. If I had been warned off, I’d never have gotten to know our Murphy, the happy, glowingly healthy orange goofball who keeps his teeth to himself and has brightened our house since the minute we got him home. And sure, he may have health problems in the future, like every other cat may. I just fear for all those cats in cages in shelters, who for absolutely no fault of their own, are considered a bad risk and may not be adopted because of it.

Second, I have a lot of respect for people with multiple cats. They’re willingly taking on much more work and expense to keep more cats out of shelters. More power to them. There does seem to a bias against single cat households, but not usually from the standpoint of the owner’s experience. Do you have any idea how much easier it is to have one cat? Half the entries in the Behavior section I can just ignore, because they’re problems that don’t apply to single cats. When I find vomit on the rug, I know exactly who did it. When I find poop just outside the box, I know exactly who did it. If I smelt it, Murphy dealt it. When Murphy goes to the vet, I don’t have to go through another introduction process when we get home. No one picks on anyone; no one is going to bully him when he gets sick; no one eats his food when he’s not looking. There are arguments to be made that multiple cats provide a better experience for the cats, but owners' experience counts too.


----------



## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

Well I definitely agree with you on the declawing issues - I'm actually more likely to consider adopting an adult cat that's already been declawed, particularly if it's four-paw, simply because I know I'm not going to let that cat go outside and I WILL take the time to work with it patiently if it gets a little nippy. I know there are plenty of perfectly delightful declawed cats out there, so as long as I have an opportunity to spend time with the cat I certainly wouldn't write it off for being short a few claws. After all, it's not the cat's fault someone hacked off its first line of defense and then dumped it in a shelter!!!

And I have certainly had many times where having just one cat would have been nice, as far as knowing who did it! I think there's something to be said for having one kitty to shower all your love on, and I've seen that many single-cat owners really develop a special bond with their cat. I totally believe it's up to the person AND the cat, as some people and some cats just do better in a more solitary environment. Even though I have two, it does bug me when I see people insisting that you need more than one - mine are sisters I would never have considered splitting them up, but if it hadn't been the sisters it would have been a single cat with a solitary nature.

I think these are both issues where you'll never get everyone to agree, and you have to just sigh and accept that some people will always try to shove their opinions down everyone else's throat. We'd probably have more newbies stick around if people would be more interested in providing information rather than condemning loving owners who just want to ask a question.


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

technically that was 2 mini rants


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Duly noted, two mini-rants.

Diana, I totally agree with your comments about adopting declawed cats. The thought of someone doing this awful physical thing to them, and then them not being adopted because of it, is just too much injustice to even contemplate.


----------



## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

I can definitely see your point, well...points, lol.

I have no issue with people adopting de-clawed cats. In fact as long as the cat will be indoor only I suggest it. (If you want a de-clawed cat that is). The part that bothers me is when someone buys a perfectly good kitten then get's it de-clawed. At the shelter near me that cats have to be completely stress free in any environment (basically) to be considered adoptable. (...not a fan of my local humane society...) So even if they have been de-clawed the ones who got behavioral issues from it have been weeded out. Therefore at my shelter that's a non-issue.

I talked to a woman and her husband the other day who had just bought an adorable little kitten. She was the sweetest thing! I suggested they get a scratch post, and the woman replied "No, we don't need one. She's going to be de-clawed." So I told her about my four kitty house and how they politely keep their claws to themselves. She didn't care. The kitten is getting de-clawed. End of discussion. I walked off because I couldn't deal with her without screaming... I disagree with THAT. IMO if you want a de-clawed cat get one that has already been de-clawed. Don't get a kitten with the intention of never giving it a chance.

End of my rant...sorry for the hijack October...

As for the multiple kitty thing. I agree with you. Many kitties are perfectly happy as a single cat. We have one at work in our adoption center that MUST be the only queen in her castle, lol. Even people getting a kitten I don't think a second cat should be required, depending on the personality. If the kitten is to be a child's pet and will have someone to spend loads of time with it then it won't need another playmate.

I do enjoy my many kitty house, but I also feel that it's not for everyone. I know my parents would feel overwhelmed by more than their one kitty, and I know many people who should only have one pet...if that. If you only have the time or resources for one cat, or even if you don't want more than one, I don't think that's a problem. However if the cat is going to be alone for huge stretches at a time, is a kitten or cat that would be a good mix with a friend, and if the person can support more than one kitty then why not. But IMO it's not a requirement.

(Side-note. Sorry if there's any typos, I think I got them all. Doran wanted to 'help' me type. lol)


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Yep, I agree with both your points, Holly, particularly the single cat issue. There is a bias against people with single cats which I can find a little frustrating. Toby is more than happy to be as he is - he doesn't need a friend. He has me and he has his daddy. I'd imagine another cat would just cause him stress.

People may have noticed (or may not :lol that I don't post half as much as I used to*.This is partly due to the forceful way some people come across - and there have been quite recent examples I remember where newbies have been blasted and then never return. Thats never good!

* dont worry, I'm not disappearing completely, indeed I still check the forum daily. I'm just more cautious now!


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

I'll reply to each of your rants seperately :wink: 

I just had to sit through having a coworker tell me that he was having 6 kittens spayed and declawed two weeks ago on the same day my cat was being respayed. I only found out about the declawing becausing I had asked him about the cost since he was having so many spayed simultaneously. When he told me $600 each and added that it was that expensive because he was also having each declawed I think I surpressed any noticable cringe. I though he was a great guy for rescuing so many kittens but couldn't believe anyone that comitted to cats would have them declawed.

When I first joined the forum I was just introducing my second cat to my first and after a few weeks I didn't think it was going to work and I posted about that here and some people came back very supportively saying "Don't feel guilty, sometimes it doesn't work and yes you may have to return the second cat" so I'm surprised that single catters would feel discriminated against here. 

I haven't even felt any discrimination here despite having admitted that my cats are currently on a dry-only diet. They have stronger wills than I do but I'll be taking up that battle in a few weeks after the drama of Fay's surgery has worn off.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Dave, "discriminated against" may be too strong a phrase, and I must say that bias against single cats also comes from stuff I've read. Several web sites said that having a single cat is now illegal in Switzerland! Like it's some kind of animal abuse. 

Lots of people have said things about cats needing a buddy, someone to play with, "I could never have just one," etc. That's their experience, which is great, but I think we should leave room for the category of "happily single." Hey, speaking of that, we should have a category of "happily single" for people too! I know we have lots of them here (but I digress).

By the way, these stories about people getting kittens declawed are very sad.


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Rut-Rho. I wish I had never Googled Switzerland cats.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

RANT #1: I've adopted 2 declawed cats over the years -- Gabriel was COMPLETELY unfazed by his declawing (even though he had mild cerebellar hypoplasia so his balance was already poor and the lack of claws made that a much more serious problem for him). Lincoln was a biter and it took me 2 years before he really trusted me. There is no way of knowing how much of that was related to his being declawed and how much was b/c people played w/ him w/ their hands when he was a kitten and then got upset when it hurt (duh!) and punished him.

I've certainly never heard anyone recommend against adopting a declawed kitty! The only time I do so, honestly, is if the family has small children. Declawed cats are usually more defensive (for obvious reasons) and if they are cornered or mishandled, are more likely to bite than cats w/ claws. Adults/older kids can understand this and amend their behavior; small children can't, and there's less chance of things working out for that reason.

They key is to look at the individual cat when adopting -- in this area as w/ all others. I consider claw status to be just one aspect of a cat, taken into account along with other aspects of his/her personality and history. If the shelter/foster parent says the kitty is sweet w/ people and w/ other cats, then regardless of claw status, he probably is.  Or if you're up for dealing w/ a problem cat, the shelter will revere you--people were actually sobbing at the shelter when I said I'd take Lincoln, who had been at the shelter more than a year, on and off depo for the biting, and who tried to nail me at our first meeting. I have no kids and am endlessly patient, so I had no reason NOT to take him, and doing so freed up his spot for another needy cat to get out of the county shelter and into the no-kill one.

Anyway, I can't imagine anyone saying to NOT adopt a declawed cat. However that doesn't mean that many declawed cats do not have behavior problems – they do. You can either find one who doesn’t have any problems or you can work to fix those problems. Either way, a declawed kitty has just as much right to be adopted as one w/ claws.

And actually, shelters usually find that declawed cats are EASIER to adopt out b/c people who might declaw a cat anyway b/c they care a lot about their material possessions get one this way w/out the guilt.  

RANT #2: If you truly only want one cat, that’s fine.  Different strokes and all. I myself am going to keep recommending 2 b/c in most households no one is home all day long, b/c I believe that most cats do prefer company. I’ve only ever had one intro that really didn’t work out well, and I take the blame for that one entirely. It’s why I adamantly recommend against bringing a new cat into a household w/ a truly senior cat – my 17 year old Ebony had always lived w/ other cats, but at her age she didn’t want to have to adjust to a companion, and it would have been easier on her if I had waited until she had gone to the Bridge. 

One of the reasons I suggest to people who are getting ONE kitten to get TWO is b/c (1) kittenhood is when it’s easiest to put 2 cats together with almost no trouble on your part whatsoever, and (2) a single kitten is pretty darn hard to live with—they need to play 18 hours a day and if they don’t have a kitten to do that with, well, you’re elected!

Having lived with 2-3 cats at a time my entire adult life, and seeing how much they love each other, how much fun they have playing together, etc., it is my opinion that it’s better for the cat to have a feline companion. That doesn’t mean everyone has to do this—esp. if you work out of the home, you may well be enough for your cat. I feel good, however, knowing that when I’m gone my cats are carrying on their happy kitty culture without me.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Hoof, no one has ever come out and said, "Don't adopt a declawed cat," but so many negative things have been said about them here, that I was afraid it would have that effect. Even if you accept that declawed cats have some likely challenges, I really wonder if the degree of challenge would be different than any other type of cat. 

The Switzerland Google thing . . . OMG, you're right.


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm probably one of the very few multi-cat owners who defends single cat owners all the time. Cinderella LOVED being the only cat in the house. I'll never get the same relationship back with her that we had when it was just the two of us. And Cleo would thrive being the only cat. She mostly hangs by herself until the twins go to bed. Then she's a totally different kitty. 

I will also always defend rehoming cats. If it's really not working out, it's not worth stressing yourself out or your other cat(s). At a certain point, something has to change. Plus, many of us here wouldn't have our cats if it weren't for rehoming, cats being returned to shelters, etc. I've seen so many posts where people are guilted into trying again and again and eventually end up rehoming the cat in the end, after weeks or months of stress on everyone's part.

As for declawing, I _think _the point Holly was trying to make is so many people *here* tell stories of how awful their future pain and behavioral problems will be, arthritis and such, so people *here* reading that would decide not to get a declawed kitty.


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Oops, Holly posted while I was typing. But I think it's the same line of thinking. The warnings are so terrible, and yet people say adopting a declawed kitty is just fine.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

marie73 said:


> As for declawing, I _think _the point Holly was trying to make is so many people *here* tell stories of how awful their future pain and behavioral problems will be, arthritis and such, so people *here* reading that would decide not to get a declawed kitty.


I get that.  The point I was trying to make is that since some cats DO come through unscathed (b/c they have really mellow personalities or whatever), you can easily choose a normal, unscathed declawed kitty at the shelter. But many cats DO have serious problems as a result of declawing and I think it's important to make that clear to people who are considering declawing (so perhaps we can talk them out of it) or who now have behavior problems to which the declaw contibuted (so they can understand that it's not the cat's fault). 

Fact is that most shelters either won't take or will euthanize cats w/ serious behavior problems. Lincoln was lucky that he managed to get through a year being almost un-handleable. He had a few folks there on his side. But that's not normally the case. So most declawed cats at shelters are gonna be the ones who handled it o.k. and, as I said, they are often the first ones snapped up b/c people can get a declawed cat w/out the guilt and w/out the risk. If the cat has been declawed a while and is o.k. chances are he WILL be o.k., you know?


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I think that when people come here and mention declawing, the natural instinct is to pull out the big guns to prevent them from doing it any way we can. The initial pain of the procedure is enough to make me (and many others) not even consider it, let alone any of the other possible consequences. But I've never been able to find any stats on what % of declawed cats have problems down the road that are directly attributable to declawing. Unfortunately, when we pull out all the horror stories to prevent a declawing, it will also have impact on someone reading the thread 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years down the road, who is considering adopting an already declawed cat. 

As far as only cats vs multiples, there are different factions and there will always be disagreements. I've had a single cat and she was fine with it. I've had combinations of multiples where some couldn't care less about the others and ones who would be lost without their 'sibling'. The reality is, they're all different and we can't make sweeping statements that multiples are always better than singles. And yes, the human's experience needs to be a primary consideration as well. IMO the problems that can arise with multiples take a lot more energy and research and cat psychology than the issues with singles.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Marie is right. We hope to discourage declawing, for the sake of the cat. However, it would be sad for a declawed cat to live in a cage its whole life for that reason only. Cat bites can be dangerous, but not all declawed cats bite. The shelter workers should be able to tell you one way or another. What concerns me is the phantom pain these kitties might have to live with. 

Nina is alone now, since Blueberry died. They used to cuddle. I think Nina probably misses that. However, we have Kelsey, the collie. Nina prefers me, but at least there is one other animal in the house. I plan to adopt another shelter cat, either black, tuxedo, or another Siamese/Balinese. I think the cats enjoy chasing each other! Nina loves other cats, however. Not all cats do, and that's something to keep in mind.


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Purrfectly said, Lisa.

And I do understand that some cats need other cats.


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

I have been thinking a bit more about this. I think the problem is (not that its really a problem) is that we are all passionate about cats and we all have our opinions about what we think is the best for our cats. But there are so many 'gray' areas ... like peoples opinions on single cat households. Theres no 'correct answer', only a persons opinion according to what has worked for them. I'm willing to wager that the reason Marie always defends single cat households despite having four herself is because, in retrospect, she thinks Cinderella should have been an only cat. Its that same reasoning I've applied in my decision to not get a 'playmate' for Toby, despite being at work long hours during the week. I know my cat. He doesn't want a 'playmate'. And its extremely annoying if people try to tell me otherwise.

There are, of course, some areas that are not 'gray'. The obvious one - irresponsible breeding. And the slightly more controversial one - declawing. I think its important to try and stop people from declawing their pets ... but, as Holly has already pointed out, being too negative about the effects might stop people from adopting needy already declawed cats. Its a balancing act.

People come here to be educated about their cats. Thats certainly why I came here. On one hand, you have to tell people that its really not a good idea to breed their beautiful young female 'just so she can have one litter' - but one has to do it so not to frighten people off. We want them to stay, because the longer they stay, the more they learn about how to look after their cat.

But, as I said, there are many gray areas where there is no right or wrong answer, but people sometimes act as if there is. I've always felt as if peoples general opinion is 'well, if its a choice of a shelter or a nice home, then rehoming just one cat is ok, but its definitely better to have two'. No, its not. Its just that a multi cat household has worked for *you*. That doesn't mean it will work for me or my cat.

Am I making sense or just rambling? :lol:


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Making sense.  

Although wouldn't a litter of baby Cinderellas be adorable? (j/k!!!)


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

marie73 said:


> Making sense.
> 
> Although wouldn't a litter of baby Cinderellas be adorable? (j/k!!!)


I'd only have one thing to say about baby Cinderellas.

*I WANT THEM! I WANT THEM ALL!*

Sorry. Kitten fever. Ahem


----------



## katlover13 (Apr 15, 2008)

It would be very sad if someone was put off adopting a declawed cat because of posts here, but eople need to realize how individual cats are. Sure, some cats may have problems but other cats won't. My most laid-back cat, Charlie, was declawed front and back when he came to us. He has never bitten anyone in this household and I can't imagine him even getting very angry. 

About the single cat households, I believe that the best way is different for individual people (and cats). I grew up in a multi-cat household and have always had at least two, so that is what I am most comfortable with. I also think Juno would be much happier if she was an only cat. Others in my bunch get along with some but not all of the others. There are some problems that become worse if there are several cats, for instance there are more likely to be litterbox problems. I must admit there are times when I am scooping pounds of poop out of litter boxes or dishing up multiple expensive cans of catfood for breakfast and dinner that I think life would be so much easier without so many. But then there are times like right now when I have Ray on the desk next to me, Orlando in the chair next to me, Charlie on the rocker behind me and Scottie in the other chair in the room and I know I want it to be this way. (Only four? Wonder why the others aren't here?) I also know that when my children were little this many cats would have been a really bad idea. Circumstances change. Situations change. Everyone has to do what is best for them and their families.


----------



## furryfriends251 (Jan 1, 2009)

Personally, I hope that the United States bans declawing. I would never get a cat declawed...if I wanted a declawed cat I'd adopt one that already was declawed by the previous owner. 

I always have some scratch on my hand from a cat that gets a bit to impatient or uses their claws when playing. A few scratches isn't going to hurt me. To me, a scratch is just a sign that you happen to love cats :wink: Sure, my hands look quite beat up but I don't care. I have some permanent scars on one of my hands caused by calves as well. Putting a halter on a calf and my hand was on the top of her head. She jumped, hit her head on a board and my hand got smashed between the too - hard. I don't blaim her for that, just like I'm not going to blaim my cats for a few scratches that I have.

It would be so much easier to figure out who did what if there was only one cat. I normally don't figure out...just blaim the most guilty looking cat (if they broke/tore apart something). Last night I noticed that someone had thrown up their dinner from the previous night. It was downstairs which narrows it down to 6 cats. But who was it? Chances are I won't find out.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

doodlebug said:


> Unfortunately, when we pull out all the horror stories to prevent a declawing, it will also have impact on someone reading the thread 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years down the road, who is considering adopting an already declawed cat.
> 
> And yes, the human's experience needs to be a primary consideration as well. IMO the problems that can arise with multiples take a lot more energy and research and cat psychology than the issues with singles.


Yes, exactly. I wish there were some definitive information on whether declawed cats really do have health or behavioral problems down the line. The way it is, we have no real clue that the cat wouldn't have been that way anyway. My basic feeling is: don't shy away from adopting delcawed cats! It wouild be a real human betrayal if we do this awful thing to them, and then consider them 'untouchables' for it.

And yes, Lisa, that's what I was trying to say about the human experience. I'm almost overwhelmed with caring for one cat and am a real doter. I can't imagine giving that much attention to two or more. But as I said, more power to people who can.


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

The single or multicat issue definitely depends on the cats involved. Fay might be happier without Mia but Mia could never be the only pet in a household and left alone all day.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I think there's enough information out there that says problems do occur...my local shelter kept stats and ~75% of the cats that came in with biting and non-medical litter box use issues were also declawed. So that tells you there are higher incidences of these problems amongst declawed cats. What I don't know is how many declawed cats came in that didn't have issues. If I had to guess, and this is only a guess...but based on years of experience talking to people in shelters, friends, co-workers etc. I would say that about 25% of declawed cats develop a problem, some more severe than others and it's more likely to be biting or ill temper than litterbox issues. 

So I think that when someone is looking to adopt a declawed cat, they should definitely be educated about the risks, because they're very real, but not in a manner that frightens them off. The ideal is not to declaw a cat to begin with, then there's no chance of creating a cat that no one wants...


----------



## WhiteKitties (Dec 22, 2008)

October said:


> I wish there were some definitive information on whether declawed cats really do have health or behavioral problems down the line. The way it is, we have no real clue that the cat wouldn't have been that way anyway.


That made me think of pet communicators/pyschics who say they can talk to animals. I recall reading an article about a woman who talked to three declawed cats and got their side of the story about how much pain they were in and how angry they were with their humans..... However, when Fern was sick for a week with a bladder infection my shelter mom sent a pet communicator to talk to her and after that I realized that total strangers simply can't have a conversation with our beloved pets. This lady told me that Fern said she was craving warm wet food with water mixed in to make it soupy, and belly rubs to soothe her pain.... Yeah, those are two things Fern hates, and she begged for dry food that whole week while she was on wet only, to the point of refusing to eat anything until I gave her dry food!

While I believe the lady who 'talked' to the declawed cats may have spent enough time with them to see behavior suggesting pain and resentment, I don't believe for a second that she actually had a conversation with them - her narration was simply convenient to use as more evidence against declawing. I think pet psychics are really just paying attention to behavioral clues and using common sense to tell pet owners the things they could easily figure out on their own if they took the time to learn how to understand their companions!

Sorry, that's a little off-topic, but we're ranting here, right?


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

I mostly mention getting another cat in 2 circumstances:

(1) Person says they are getting a kitten or young cat. Since most people work and are away from the house 8-10 hours a day, IMO in that situation it's a VERY good idea to get 2 at the outset and avoid problems down the line. The shelter or rescue group can put together 2 cats who already know and love each other or, in the case of kittens, generally any 2 will do. You can avoid later introduction issues and intercat squabbles most of the time doing it this way, and you also avoid "single kitten syndrome," whereby the kitten has no one to play with and is alone a lot, and hence, makes your life a living ****.  We have posts by people in just this situation all the time.

(2) Person is already in a situation like that described above--one kitten or young cat who is driving them insane. Most of the time, adding another kitten or young cat at this point won't be very difficult and will resolve many of the issues the person is having.

If you have an adult cat who is perfectly happy and you don't want another one, that's fine! But if you KNOW you only want one cat for all time, then look for an adult (2 years plus) cat known to be either not good w/ other cats (and therefore likely to be happy as a single cat) or one the shelter feels would be o.k. alone. This greatly lessens the likelihood of either a lonely cat left home all day while you're at work or a kitten/young cat driving you out of your mind all night long b/c he so desperately wants to play with SOMEONE.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Studies on declawed cats vs. whole cats are difficult to do. They would either have to do a controlled experiment (which would be COMPLETELY sick and OMG let's hope they don't do that! 8O ) or just interview owners. Owners report inaccuately (esp. if they have an agenda either way), and behavior problems can have MANY causes so it wouldn't be possible to say for sure what caused them in non-experimental cats.

I worked for vets for a number of years, and I started keeping informal track of the claw status of the cats who had "BAD CAT" on their file (this means the cat bites-wear gauntlets to handle!). Over the course of 4 years at one clinic, almost 80% of the BAD CATS at our clinic were at least front declawed (some all around). That doesn't mean that 80% of declawed cats are biters, but that OF biters at this one clinic, most were declawed.

Again, however, it's pretty easy to tell if a shelter kitty is a biter or not.  Lincoln certainly didn't hide it! So it's not hard to choose a reasonably well-adjusted declawed cat from a shelter. And as I already pointed out, I think it's a mistake to think that folks are avoiding declawed cats at shelters -- as long as they have no known behavior problems, they are usually the first cats snapped up.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

hoofmaiden said:


> I worked for vets for a number of years, and I started keeping informal track of the claw status of the cats who had "BAD CAT" on their file (this means the cat bites-wear gauntlets to handle!). Over the course of 4 years at one clinic, almost 80% of the BAD CATS at our clinic were at least front declawed (some all around). That doesn't mean that 80% of declawed cats are biters, but that OF biters at this one clinic, most were declawed.


Which is pretty consistent with the 75% my shelter saw. What would have been good info is of all the declawed cats in the practice, how many were Bad Cats?


----------



## Fran (Jan 9, 2008)

This is a good thread - full of thoughtful commentary. 

It's just like parenting, isn't it? Having and letting go, joy and sorrow, all tied together. 

We're parents of an only child, and I have had so many emotions over the years about whether a second child would have been good. It just didn't happen. Don't get me wrong, I didn't meet anyone I wanted to marry until I was in my early thirties, and I am so grateful that I didn't 'miss the boat' altogether (Hubby feels exactly the same on that), but there are times that I am sad for our son that he won't have a sibling to share with later when Hubby and I are gone. *sigh* 

And I feel the same for Gracie - I think she _loves_ her life with us, but sometimes I wonder whether she'd also love snuggling with a furry friend. But when we actually imagine maybe getting another kitty, it is so clear that carving out two territories in this one house would be such a challenge, and Gracie does seem so content. *sigh*

* * * 

About declawed kitties - I have never known any personally, but my niece and nephew have admitted that their multiple declawed cats - all siblings - though not shy like Gracie, never play with toys, and barely spend any time together. They have been so surprised by Gracie, who is such a sucker for the toy drawer that she forgets to hide! They have so much fun with her. It makes me sad to hear about their kitties, they sound a little depressed. I wish they could all have a little extra TLC... 


Fran


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

My local SPCA writes up only a couple-word descriptions of cats available for adoption, if that, but Murphy was described as "very affectionate, declawed, and must be an only cat." DING DING DING, we have a winner. So yes, I did prescreen him on all three things, and he has been the most happy, silly, problem-free kitty in the almost 2 years that we've had him. I feel like he should be a poster child for adopting declawed cats, but then again, he'd hate the car ride to the rallies.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

doodlebug said:


> Which is pretty consistent with the 75% my shelter saw. What would have been good info is of all the declawed cats in the practice, how many were Bad Cats?


Yes -- wish I'd done that. It would have meant going through every file though (they were not online as this was back in the Dark Ages, LOL) and technically I was there to work.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Fran said:


> About declawed kitties - I have never known any personally, but my niece and nephew have admitted that their multiple declawed cats - all siblings - though not shy like Gracie, never play with toys, and barely spend any time together. They have been so surprised by Gracie, who is such a sucker for the toy drawer that she forgets to hide! They have so much fun with her. It makes me sad to hear about their kitties, they sound a little depressed. I wish they could all have a little extra TLC...


Yeah -- this is where things get sticky. This is a gross generalization, so pardon it, but it's been my experience that people who routinely declaw cats are way more concerned about material objects than they are about their cats. So people like that may interact less/play less with their cats overall -- i.e., the lack of playing, depression, etc. may be more from being ignored and treated like an object than b/c of being declawed. Or not. This is precisely why studies are hard to do!


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Having lived both in a multi-cat household where the two cats didn't get along and one where they did... I agree that some cats do better as only cats and that introducing cats as adults can be a hit-or-miss affair.

My parents had two cats while I was growing up. Smokey disliked Farrah from the moment Farrah was old enough that Smokey considered her a threat to her dominance, to the moment Smokey's kidneys failed. (I never once saw Farrah act aggressively towards Smokey -- only the other way around -- and Farrah was very upset when Smokey died. Go figure.) They both coped and had happy lives, but there's no question in my mind that if Smokey had been given a vote she would have preferred Farrah never entered her life or her house!

Maybe it was something personal about Farrah she disliked and a different cat would have worked better. Who knows?

But watching Misty and Stormy, and the depth and complexity of their interactions, I can also see that interacting with a cat and interacting with a person are by no means interchangeable: there's a whole other level of cat-cat interaction that only cats won't get. I find cat politics fascinating to watch, but I don't understand and certainly don't play!

For me personally, from now on I'm going to be looking to acquire my cats in pairs-that-are-already-friends. And I agree that if you're getting a kitten -- get two littermates if it's at all feasible! (I really don't think they demand twice as much attention because they get so much attention and interaction from each other.) But that doesn't mean that I think it's necessary or desirable for everyone who already has a happy single cat to run out and get another one.


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

And aside from the cats personality people also vary in their ability to handle multiple cats depending again on the cats personality. 

I could easily handle 2 Fay's (laid back Ragdoll). I could never handle 2 Mia's (high energy color point Siamese).


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I could never handle 4 Cali's!! I'd be in the looney bin permanently. I'm only let out now to go to work as it is! 8O


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

If I had a second kitten when I got Maggie I would have just had to move out and surrender the house. She was the craziest kitten I've ever seen and she had Callie, who was a pretty active 2.5 year old at the time, to play with. Any cat who decides to walk across a curtain rod is a lunatic (she was on top of the kitchen cabinets and wanted to go across the gap over the sink to the cabinets on the other side).


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

hoofmaiden said:


> Fran said:
> 
> 
> > About declawed kitties - I have never known any personally, but my niece and nephew have admitted that their multiple declawed cats - all siblings - though not shy like Gracie, never play with toys, and barely spend any time together. They have been so surprised by Gracie, who is such a sucker for the toy drawer that she forgets to hide! They have so much fun with her. It makes me sad to hear about their kitties, they sound a little depressed. I wish they could all have a little extra TLC...
> ...


Excellent point. Maybe it's not the behavior problem of the declawed cat, but the personality traits of the humans who declaw their cats. Hmmmmmmmmm........


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

doodlebug said:


> Any cat who decides to walk across a curtain rod is a lunatic (she was on top of the kitchen cabinets and wanted to go across the gap over the sink to the cabinets on the other side).


I love these stories about what cheeky monkeys they are! Walking across a curtain rod is hilarious. That's a new one.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

October said:


> Excellent point. Maybe it's not the behavior problem of the declawed cat, but the personality traits of the humans who declaw their cats. Hmmmmmmmmm........


I think it's impossible to know. I mean, obviously amputation is pretty major surgery and given how vital claws are to cats, it's not hard to understand that their loss would cause many issues for many cats. I suspect that it's a bit like diabetes in cats: it is almost certainly triggered by carbs in kibble (you almost NEVER hear of a cat fed canned or raw his/her entire life who gets diabetes) and yet many kibble fed cats never get it. Dr. Hodgkins believes that this is b/c the cats who are genetically more likely to develop diabetes are tipped over the edge by carb-laden food. Those NOT genetically as likely to develop it may be able to deal w/ the less-than-appropriate diet. 

So cats who are naturally confident, who were raised right, etc. may be able to handle the physical and emotional trauma of declawing (like my Gabriel and your Murphy). Cats who are naturally less confident and emotionally strong, and those not cared for as well, will be less able to deal with the additional stressor of declawing (like my Lincoln).


----------



## 3timesthetrouble (Dec 29, 2009)

Our youngest cat, bubbles, was way happier as the only cat. When my mom died and I inherited her 2, she went on an evil streak for a year. The only thing that got her out of it was us adopting our dogs. She loves dogs, but doesn't care about the other cats at all. My other 2 love each other, though, and groom each other, but I never see them play. I think all cats are different, just like all people are. What makes 1 cat elated could be torture to another. 
My 2 cats were declawed when I inherited/adopted them. I knew them before the declaw, and they were both really sweet kitties, and they still are. I really lucked out. Except for Pookie regrowing some claws. I had to take her to re-declaw her. It was terrible.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

They can re-grow claws???


----------



## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

October said:


> They can re-grow claws???


If the declaw is not done correctly, yes. They see a big problem with this in rescued big cats. They dont' declaw properly and the cat ends up with a SEVERELY ingrown claw that gets infected and causes a LOT of pain. This can happen in housecats as well.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Yeah. It can happen when the declaw was done "wrong." They never grow back in correctly, so cause more problems and have to be re-removed.  

More here: http://www.declawing.com/htmls/declawing.htm

http://www.catsinfo.com/declaw.html


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Poor things


----------



## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I recently read about de-clawing issues and learned that unlike our fingernails, _which are grown from our cuticle/skin_, a cat's claws are grown from bone and if the declaw leaves any of these bone-fragments that produce/grow claws, they will continue to try to form/grow claws ... but of course those bone fragments are now shattered into small pieces left behind during the original surgery and can/will grow in wonky ways that can badly hurt the cat. This _will not happen_ if *all* pieces of that last toe-bone are removed.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

I've got this idea that _must_ be doable . . . . Trim the cat's nails down to the lowest comfortable point, and then have some kind of liquid you could apply to the ends of the nails that would prevent them from growing anymore. This liquid deadens them, essentially, so they can't grow. What's so implausible about that? Come on researchers, come up with this!


----------



## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I like that idea but I'm not sure it would work on the ends of the claw, I think it would need to be 'deadened' at the bone since that is where those cells originate from. Our friend took his daughter's kitten to the vet and the vet snip-snip-snipped his claws very short. When the kitty came home and played with you (_we visited_) you could just about NOT feel any claw at all, it was amazing! I tried to get a good look but HeyZeus was wiggling like mad to get down and play, but it looks like the vet clipped off more than *half* the claw. 8O I've only ever clipped off the barest *ends* of the pointy tips.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Honestly, people just need to realize that when they get a cat they're getting a CAT! They have claws. They use their claws. Owners have to provide really great posts and teach them to use them, and if they're really hyper about their stuff, knock the tip off the front claws WEEKLY. Just doing that keeps the claws as dull as what October is suggesting.

Or get an animal that doesn't have claws and doesn't need to scratch. Or don't get an animal!


----------



## cmw0829 (Nov 23, 2008)

Many years ago, I had two cats. The first was declawed as an adult after she'd ruined my furniture. The second was declawed when she was spayed. I never really noticed any issues, but I was unable to keep them and they were adopted out when they were 9 and 6, so don't know if any issues ever developed later in life.

Then I read about declawing. Never again, I vowed, as I nearly vomited from the description. 

With our two new ladies, one adopted at 1 year, the other at 6 months, we purchased and built several sisal-wrapped posts and located them on both levels of the house. We briefly used No-Scratch, redirecting them each time we caught them scratching the furniture. After more then a year, all of our upholstered furniture is intact. 

Sadly, I can't say the same for the top of my piano, which became a landing and launching pad for cat attacks...need to move the piano.


----------



## KittyMonster (Nov 8, 2009)

Heidi n Q said:


> I like that idea but I'm not sure it would work on the ends of the claw, I think it would need to be 'deadened' at the bone since that is where those cells originate from. Our friend took his daughter's kitten to the vet and the vet snip-snip-snipped his claws very short. When the kitty came home and played with you (_we visited_) you could just about NOT feel any claw at all, it was amazing! I tried to get a good look but HeyZeus was wiggling like mad to get down and play, but it looks like the vet clipped off more than *half* the claw. 8O I've only ever clipped off the barest *ends* of the pointy tips.


I know exactly what you mean. I only ever snipped a couple milimetres off the end of Mak's claws for fear of hurting him, but to be honest it didn't do much in preventing scratches. Mak's claws are so big that if you leave them alone he will make "tap tap" noises on the hardwood when he walks, just like a dog! 

When I took him to the vet, though, they clipped his nails right down to the pink area and he didn't mind at all. I guess I was being a little overcautious!


----------



## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

The more often you clip the claws the shorter the quick will be. When I first got teddy he had really long, needle sharp claws. I would trim them a few mm every week or every time I felt a really sharp point. Within a month or two his claws, while still VERY functional were fairly blunt and don't poke me every time they touch me. Now I only clip them when I feel a sharpish point. I will now have to work on doing this with Leo once he is more used to being held.

I have only cut the quick once and it was only a little nick but it BLED like crazy. this was on one of his black claws. He didn't seem to mind it much. I think he minded me holding on to him with a tissue on his claw until it stopped bleeding more than the actual cut. I felt so bad for him.  Since then I have been far more cautious abou trimming his claws


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Yes, cats have claws, which doesn't negate the fact that it would be in both our interests and the cats' interest to find some reasonable, humane solution for cats doing damage to furniture. To me, the bottom line is getting cats out of shelters. If we could increase the number of cats in households from 35,000,000 to 40,000,000 because of having a good solution to the claw situation, I'm all for it.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Mmmmm . . . I dunno. I guess I think there are already plenty of "solutions" for people who really ought to have cats. Good scratching posts; careful training; frequent nail trimming; SoftPaws if someone can't/won't do the other stuff. If all those things are too expensive/inconvenient/annoying, then honestly, does that person really need a pet? Not everyone SHOULD have a cat, dog, etc., after all. The reason there are so many cats/dogs in shelters isn't because the people who care more about their furniture aren't adopting them, but b/c too many cats/dogs are being bred, both "accidentally" (through not being spayed/neutered, allowed to roam, etc.) and on purpose (breeders not enforcing S/N agreements, etc.). 

Basically, the problem is that there are more cats than their are GOOD homes for them. I don't think we can improve the quality of the potential homes -- we need to reduce the # of kitties. So our best efforts really should be put towards getting low-cost spay/neuter clinics in more areas, getting the word out about them, and putting our money where our mouths are in that regard. I sponsor 3 spays/neuters a month at our local S/N clinic, for instance. This only costs me $60-80 a month but 3 more cats will not reproduce as a result.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Yeah, I can imagine that's very satisfying, to know you're directly helping in reducing the population.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

hoofmaiden said:


> I guess I think there are already plenty of "solutions" for people who really ought to have cats. Good scratching posts; careful training; frequent nail trimming; SoftPaws if someone can't/won't do the other stuff. If all those things are too expensive/inconvenient/annoying, then honestly, does that person really need a pet?


Seriously??? I know I'd rather not have a bunch of scratching posts around my house, have to trim nails, have to worry about claws when administering meds etc. if there was a permanent humane way to address claws. Does that make me not worthy of having cats?


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

doodlebug said:


> Seriously??? I know I'd rather not have a bunch of scratching posts around my house, have to trim nails, have to worry about claws when administering meds etc. if there was a permanent humane way to address claws. Does that make me not worthy of having cats?


??? I'm confused here. Do you really want your cats not to scratch ANYTHING? B/c scratching addresses a psychological need. 

No, I would NOT wish my cats' claws away, no matter how "humane" the removal or deactivation, b/c I see how much joy and exercise they get from a good hard scratching session. I guess I don't understand the desire to alter the basic nature of an animal so profoundly . . .


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

"This only costs me $60-80 a month but 3 more cats will not reproduce as a result."

Wow. Thank You. That's really nice.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

It's not much skin off my nose, but thanks. I run a little "contest" and pick the people who seem LEAST likely to do it on their own. After all, pretty much anyone can afford a $20 neuter or a $30 spay, so most people just aren't doing it b/c it's too much bother. But when they see the ad they go, "mmmm . . . . maybe if it's FREE."  Human nature. Gotta love it.


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Each to their own, but i have never trimmed Tobys claws and am unlikely to anytime soon. Its a cats nature to scratch, its part of what they are all about. Toby loves to scratch his cat tree and his little horizontal post. I dunno, its just that their need to scratch comes as part of the package. Maybe i am wierd, but i personally have no desire to trim Tobys claws ... much to his relief i am sure!


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Yeah, I rarely trim the cats' claws either. I find they keep them nicely on their own via the scratching posts. The dogs' nails I do have to trim. 

But regular (weekly) trimming (teaching kitty as a baby to be easy to trim) is one of the best ways to reduce damage if that matters to one.


----------



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm on the same page with not trimming because a cat is a cat. There are a bunch of pencil marks on the inside door of a cabinet in my laudry room tracking the heights and ages of the kids who have lived here. They add character to the house. So do the cat scratches on the door frames. I'm lucky the door frames are a dark natural wood.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

No one said anything about removing claws, Holly's idea was to trim them and prevent them from growing again, which would allow them to do all the things a cat does. It was a little fantasy, we all know it's not practical or even do-able. No trying to change the nature of the cat.


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

I gotta say, if there was a painless, humane way to keep the claws permanently trimmed, I'd be for it. I imagine my ladies would be, too. Nail-trimming is right down there with dingleberry removal and hairball remedy application when it comes to least favorite activities. 

Mine love to scratch, too, but they can still do it with trimmed claws.

Aside: I love the way they scratch when they're excited. When I come home from work, it's like, "The person is home! Hi, person!" :runs to scratcher: :scratch scratch scratch:


----------



## Heather102180 (Nov 19, 2003)

Hmm, interesting thread. I didn't see it until now and it's 5 pages long! 8O Guess it's time for my opinion on the two rants.

1) Growing up, I had multiple cats at a time. This was because we were always taking in strays. The thought of declawing never crossed my families mind. Their favorite scratching post was always the arm of the couch downstairs, lol!  Having said that, since I've been "on my own" (aka, not living with my parents anymore), I've had a total of three cats, all of them declawed. Two came like that from the humane society and one I had done. Yes, I'll say it again. I had my kitty declawed. Many of you know the full story behind it and support me on my decision or if you don't, you have at least been sparing of my feelings. Of course, the choice was not one I enjoyed making. Ok, so three kitties....all declawed and none of them had behaviour issues due to the declawing. I don't encourage others to declaw but having gone through it myself, I understand there are some circumstances were it could be justified.

2) Regarding multiple cats, it all depends on the cat itself. Oliver never warmed up to Delia. He would have LOVED to continue being an only cat. Delia on the other hand tried so hard to bond with Oliver. I think she'd had done great in a multi-cat household, just maybe with a kitty other than Ollie. And my current cat, Fozzy, is a one kitty househould. If I ever do add another, I think he'd do great but I think he's content by himself too.


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

My girls get their claws stuck in stuff when they get too long, like my blankets, my clothes, the rug, toys, Cleo.....


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Not to dwell on declawing, BUT . . . I'm always kind of amazed at what seems like hypocrisies between what we consider "okay" messing with their bodies, versus what's considered cruel and inhumane. Don't certain breeds of dogs get their tails docked? _How painful does that sound_?! And no one is saying spaying or neutering is inhumane, but that's invasive, potentially risky surgery that permanently affects their ability to reproduce. No one is worried about that, because we as humans understand the value of it. Rescue groups clip the ear of feral cats to show they've been spayed or neutered, and no one bats an eye about that. I'm not defending declawing, but I do think there are some ways we react to this stuff that are more based on emotion and sensitivities than logic.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

October said:


> Not to dwell on declawing, BUT . . . I'm always kind of amazed at what seems like hypocrisies between what we consider "okay" messing with their bodies, versus what's considered cruel and inhumane. Don't certain breeds of dogs get their tails docked? _How painful does that sound_?! And no one is saying spaying or neutering is inhumane, but that's invasive, potentially risky surgery that permanently affects their ability to reproduce.


I am absolutely against tail docking and ear-cropping in dogs. The latter is illegal in most of Europe, but they still dock tails on certain breeds, and tail docking is a much more serious thing anyway, since it involves bone (and hence, possible phantom pain, etc.). It is also done w/out anesthesia (when the litter is a few days old).

Spaying and neutering, however, is on a whole other level. I cannot see the comparison there at ALL. S/N causes no long-term pain to the animal, removes entirely the risk of a number of diseases, and makes the world better in major ways for the entire species. Animals have no emotional desire or need to mate as humans do. So I think that's comparing apples to something even MORE unlike them than oranges . . . like igneous rocks or aircraft engines!


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Well, the general category is "things we humans do to alter animals' bodies, some of which we understand the benefits of, so we endorse them, and others we don't." It has a very long acroynm.  

Actually, the tail docking sounds the most heinous of all, since that's purely for looks and has no health benefits to them whatsoever. That hurts just to think about.


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

October said:


> Actually, the tail docking sounds the most heinous of all, since that's purely for looks and has no health benefits to them whatsoever. That hurts just to think about.


Ear cropping is pretty bad as well. Unlike the quick ear-tipping in TNR programs, a LOT of the ear is removed and then it has to be set by various methods. Many dogs develop infections, hematomas, etc. And that, too, is just for looks.  IMHO it looks awful (give me a lovely natural-eared Doberman ANY day of the week!), but humans have their fads.

It makes me INSANE that some moron thought it was a good idea to dock my Sam's tail--he's a MIXED BREED for crying out loud. ??!!?!?!?! Arghhghghghgghghhh......!


----------



## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

hoofmaiden said:


> IMHO it looks awful (give me a lovely natural-eared Doberman ANY day of the week!)


But then they look cute, not scary.

I think that natural-eared and tailed dobies are the cutest things ever.


----------



## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

In the farm-world, lambs usually have their tails docked to prevent a buildup of bodily-waste and breeding grounds for bacteria and infections. Lambs and sheep typically carry their tails down, not raised or wagging like a happy dog, so I don't see the benefit or need for tail docking dogs.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Why isn't there as much outrage about ear cutting and tail docking as there is for declawing cats? Those things seem much worse, in that it's only for looks and doesn't do the animal or owner any good whatsoever. Or is there outrage and I'm just not hearing it?


----------



## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

There is outrage in certain sectors. But re: docking -- litters get it done, often by the breeder, at a few days old. So the owner isn't responsible for it, and can't really DO anything about it. It also doesn't tend to lead to behavior problems. I think those are the main differences.

I'm just as outraged, though, about all of it! :evil:


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Because on a cat forum, people don't spend as much time talking about tail docking as talking about de-clawing?

I think plenty of people get worked up about tail docking and ear cropping, and have been for a long time. (Remember the horses complaining about it in _Black Beauty_?) But the topic doesn't arise much on cat forums.

As far as these procedures being worse than de-clawing... I don't know, but I doubt it. Not that I endorse either procedure, but a lot of the problems associated with de-clawing, both behavioral and medical, are caused because cats walk, dig, etc. with their feet.

Re: spaying and neutering: far from causing medical and behavioral problems, these surgeries have tremendous health benefits both for the animal and for the species. Would you seriously suggest that not spaying our pets and then putting all the resulting kittens to sleep would be more humane? Of course not... but that IS the alternative.

As far as clipping the ears of TNR cats -- the females (at least) need to be marked somehow so that they don't cut the same cat open again and again to spay here. Cartridge doesn't have nerve endings. Many humans, including me, have chosen to have holes poked into the cartilage of their ears voluntarily. I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I think what infuriates me about the ear and tailing _chopping_ is that it's just for looks. While most people wouldn't agree, declawing is done for a reason most of the time. But as long as all of it's legal where you live, it's still up to the owner.


----------

