# Moved in with a cat.



## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Hey, I have had 3 dogs but recently moved in with my girlfriend in north carolina and had to leave my dog loving ways in Canada.

Anyway, so I get here and one of her roommates has a cat. Here are some problems:

-The cat is fat.
-No one really pays it much attention.
-It will accept some petting, then bite, especially if you stray away from the head or back.
-I don't know how old it is and neither does anyone else it seems.
-Its back twitches?

So before I arrived my girlfriend would feed it (one cup of dry food twice a day) most of the time, and give it what little attention it got; the cat would jump into her lap and she would pet it until it bit or something. There were no cat toys and it generally it just slept all day.

When I got here being an animal lover I bought a brush, some toys and diet food. Turns out it can't eat the food since it has urinary tract special food or something. Im not sure how much it weighs since im not willing to risk my hands by picking it up, but its got a gut. Its scared of the ball on spring toy, it just jumps away, it runs away from the laser pointer too. It can't get enough of the ball on string on rod that I wave around though. Im hoping some exercise via playing might help it lose some weight and trust me but I fear im just training it to be a better attacker.

So being that my gf likes the cat but when it bites she would just shove it off, and no one else likes the cat enough to deal with its aggressive behavior I decided to try and deal with that problem too. I started with just petting him as he likes, and he croones and purrs. He will get on your lap and then go belly up. Then you try and pet the belly and he bites and scratches. We'll being a dog owner I did what you do with dogs, give them a firm but not too hard whack. This seemed to be working as he never stayed mad and I actually can pet him from time to time on the tummy now (its been 3 weeks) although I still would never pick him up. But just last night he leapt across the bed and bit my gf's arm as she was reading. Now this was all new behavior for him. Maybe hes just more playful now that someones playing with him? Hes also taken to pawing at feet as they go by and biting them. Hes de-clawed in the front.

So anyway just a few minutes ago im reading and the cat is next to me belly up purring and he does the swatting stuff and bites my hand without really moving. At this point he knows hes in trouble and gets all defensive. Don't tell me he cant associate me whacking him when he bites, because every time he does it he seems to know whats coming. He gets the book on the backside and scoots downstairs, but I try to add a "No!" in every time, since verbal is much better than book smacking and Id like him to you know, actually learn. So I chase it downstairs and say no while pointing and get a hiss. To me this is a dominance play (Im thinking dogs here) and I just walk forward. He runs to a chair and settles in, looking defeated. I get to say the "No!" and leave him alone. Hes skittish for the next hour or so but lets me feed, brush (his back) and play with the toy with him after and does the whole snuggle your leg thing, although I don't think hes done being angry with me yet.

So Im sitting here wondering about my overall approach and see these forums, and everyone seems to be pretty anti physical punishment. Ive had 3 large dogs and that was my reference, they were happy 10 seconds after you disciplined them and it was purely a reminder YOU were in charge, and both happier for it. The difference is they were pups, Id never needed to or even considered actually hitting my large dogs, and when they were pups it was just the love taps.

So Im wondering what to do about the cat in terms of a) its weight, will playing be enough? How do you diet a cat? Ive read less food can muck them up. b) this biting and clawing, which seems to be getting braver now that hes getting attention - but he will also let me pet his tummy sometimes.

Let me say Im not a violent person. I don't even kill spiders or cockroaches, I put them outside. Back in Canada I didn't even kill mosquito, I only do here due to west nile. I just want the cat to be happy and not have to worry about it latching on when I pet it.

Thanks for any help, Matt


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Cat threw up on the floor today. 3 times all in a row in different spots. Should I be worried? Do I feed it again? Do cats not chew, it looks like wet kibble...

Also hes forgiven me for last night. Sitting on map and what not.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

*sigh* I'll never understand why people think that cats are just small dogs. Although, just for the record, I am not at all ok with physical discipline for dogs and I am a dog trainer. There is ALWAYS a better way, maybe it won't be as easy or fast...but I prefer humane and successful to fast and easy.

Actual helpful advice:
Cats aren't dogs (I felt it bared repeating), the discipline you're using will merely teach him to become
more defensive and aggressive over time - as you have experienced.

In any case when you're petting him the reason he's biting is because he is becoming over stimulated - the rippling fur your described is one warning sign. Pay attention to his body language when you let him, ears flicking or pointed backwards, lashing tail, rippling fur, and dilated pupils are signs the cat is getting close to their breaking point. Yes, cars like petting, but too much and they can't take it so they lash out. Start watching carefully for those signs and stop petting him until he calms down a bit.

His rolling onto his back isn't an offer for you to touch his tummy, its more like him saying his back has had enough, so he politely rolls over to make it unavailable to you. The vast majority of cats do not like having their belly touched. It's their most vulnerable spot, so even a very well behaved cat can quickly become overwhelmed when you ruffle their tummy.

A big change you could likely make that would help is in how you pet him. Many dogs live vigarous scratches and to have their fur ruffled and mussed up all over. Every cat I've ever met (lots) HATES that and will do some variation of storming off, looking angry, or outright go for you. It's the equivalent if running up to your friend and rubbing your hands all over their body...rude.

Instead try to do slow soothing pets down their spine, keeping in mind many cats are sensitive about their rump and tail, or gentle scratches on their ears and cheeks. Watch his body to see what he likes, a cat who is enjoying your attention will lean into your hand to encourage pressure. Watch Rhett face, eyes loosely lidded, or closed indicate trust and pleasure. A tense face that moves away from you, tight lips, ears tilted back or down (we call them airplane ears) indicate discomfort or displeasure.

You have the right idea as far as plat goes, different cats like different toys so stick with what he likes. Another good trick for chunky kitties is to feed them by tossing their food, one or two kibbles at a time, around a room so he runs to chase them.

Wet food is best, especially for cats with urinary issues, and there's tons of info in the nutrition forum you can check out on why and what brands.

The last thong I'll add is that it sounds like who ever owns him just 'got a cat' and basically set it free in their home to do what it liked. I personally don't understand why anyone would get a pet if they have this mindset, but people do. The point us that no one has ever taught this cat how to interact with toys, people, or what he should do rather than bite. IMO its extremely unfair to punish an animal for not having been taught anything. Give the poor guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just as confused s you are about how to interact.

Thanks for trying to help him out, I hope you stick around  oh, and we'd love a picture!


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Here is a good article written by Jackson Gallaxy to help you understand what is going on with Rhett

Overstimulation (Petting-Related) Aggression | Little Big Cat

Bookmark this library. Its got lots of great information to help you learn more about cats. Its articles written by a vet and Jackson Gallaxy.

Article Library | Little Big Cat

Thanks for taking an interest in helping this basically abandoned kitty of your roommates. Rhett will come around with the right info used on him.


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

librarychick covered basically everything very well! I'd just like to add in to remember that the cat is de-clawed, which is basically removing one of a cats main defence mechanisms. It tends to make the cat a little more on edge, especially dealing with strangers. Our last girl was declawed and she displayed a lot of the behaviours your friends cat is displaying. The swatting as people walk by is a sort of threat, and it probably comes from the cat feeling vulnerable and unsafe, so it feels the need to threaten people often. Our girl did that a lot, as she got more comfortable around us, she stopped doing it to us, but if she knew you were afraid of her, well... You'd be the first she waited for by the bathroom door 

Also I'd just like to re-iterate what librarychick said about body language: pay attention to it. As a dog owner you're going to have to just completely forget about dog body language and learn cat body language and not associate the two. For example, dogs rolling on their back and bearing their stomach is a submissive behaviour that invites you to rub their stomach, a cat doing this is certainly not being submissive, and more times than not, does NOT want you to rub their stomach. Our cat does it when he gets mad, or when he wants to play, he'll also do it when he's really comfortable and we're petting him as a sort of sign of trust, but even then he does not tolerate it when we scratch his stomach, it's just him getting comfortable. 

Also, realize that a cats sense of a group dynamic is very different from a dogs. Dogs need an alpha, and once you are established as alpha they usually will obey you, and respond very quickly to discipline. There's an entire group dynamic when it comes to dogs that cats don't have. There is no alpha, and so you can not discipline as though you are one. Discipline with quick loud noises (such as shaking a bottle of coins, clapping your hands, a sharp quick no) as cats tend not to like them very much and will instantly stop what they're doing. They'll just as quickly associate that noise with the bad behaviour as they will the swatting, and they won't associate the noise with you. The noises didn't work with our cat, so we ended up resorting to a spray bottle for bad behaviour, just a quick little spray and a sharp no to get him to stop what he was doing. This is definitely not a good idea for all cats (some are much more nervous, and easily agitated) so judge based on your cat and the way they're responding to the noises.

And as to do with weight, playing will go a long way, food intake will have to change as well. I don't feed dry, but 2 cups a day sounds like a lot of dry food. You diet a cat very slowly, because yes, it can make them quite sick if you try to make them lose weight too quickly, just like with people.

And I second the picture request!


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Nakor said:


> We'll being a dog owner I did what you do with dogs, give them a firm but not too hard whack.


Not in my universe. If someone I was dating HIT one of my cats (or any other animal for that matter).... they'd be back in Canada living alone.


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## Zephyriddle (Mar 28, 2012)

All that punishment based, dominance, alpha crap is scientifically wrong with dogs and it's totally out to lunch with cats. No animal, absolutely none, needs punishment to learn and be trained. Look at dolphins in sea parks. Think they've trained by being smacked when they do something wrong? I own two great Danes, my 18 month old is 160lbs and growing and I can absolutely train them to do just about anything without getting physical with them. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I seriously need to stop smacking dolphins.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

First thanks for all the replies. Second, I don't beat my animals -.- The only time I ever gave a whack to my puppies was when they were chewing on power cables. They stopped chewing on power cables - although one time with our second dog he ate part of a sofa, knew he screwed up and my dad literally threw him into the kennel, that dog loved my dad forever after that. That story there probably is responsible for a lot of why I take this route, with dogs you're both happier when one person is in charge. Its the grey areas that dogs don't like. Maybe you can truly become the "alpha" in a dogs life without physical clues as a pup, I'm not a dog trainer I don't know. But I know dogs together work it out that way. Id also point out I've seen really cowed dogs, like if you look at them while eating they leave the room, or a raised voice and they're outta there; the personality is just gone. Those were NOT our dogs. They were just family members who knew they couldn't do whatever they wanted (although when we left the first dog in the garage for a night once he dug through a wall...). To summarize: there was never really "punishment" it was more about who was in charge as they were growing up. Training like don't pee inside, sit, come, roll over, was all done with treats and me rolling my dog over with my hands and rolling over next to him haha.

So to cats - I was thinking I could establish myself as alpha (I was thinking lions...) but apparently I am wrong. I'm not unsure that my approach wasn't working (even if it is the wrong way) as I'm awkwardly typing this while petting this cat on his belly. Hes doing the constant purr, dozy eyed kneading thing (although that can still change in a heart beat). I keep having to retype things as he shoves his head into my hands. He goes nuts for the heavy petting too, especially the hair brush, although he confuses the heck out of me when hes kneading and happy while brushing and then starts meowing (the meowing was biting 3 weeks ago). 

I thought the pawing as people walked by was him just getting more playful, as was the pouncing on the bed, and that I just had to teach him the limits of playfulness. If its true that hes feeling defensive or unsafe that doesn't make me happy at all. I want him to not be a jerk not scared for his life. I was never trying to "punish" him. I want him to know what can and can't be done. And I want him to associate me with it, or I thought I did.

All the suggestions seem to revolve around making the cat think something has a bad outcome (the water bottle that he doesn't see you spray for example) but is there no way to teach him that when I say no, that means don't do that because I'm in charge?

Also I realize I never got into the twitching before. I didn't mean back shivers (although I've seen those too). Its like his back has the hiccoughs. Since the last paragraph hes now sitting over on "his chair" watching invisible things fly around and its happening again.

And finally, here are some pictures of Dimitri.
Dimitri - Imgur
The first is him on my belly, the second is him snuggling hard into my belly, and the last is him adding to his visible girth.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Why do you need to be 'in charge' and have him know it? Why does that matter?

In my home we enforce the rules, but its because if what is safe for the cats or our other pets, or us. I don't have any need at all to be 'alpha' or 'dominant' or 'bossy' just for the sake of being the biggest baddest thing in the house. There doesn't need to be any sort if connection like that.

To teach my cars not to bite I used different methods depending on the situation...because I have a brain and darned if I'm not going to use it! Cats aren't all the same.

For Jitzu I focused on the CAUSE of her biting; she didn't trust me and had learned to be extremely wary of human contact. This is closest to your situation. Rather than expect an animal to magically modify its behaviour I first learned what I was doing that could be provoking the biting and changed it. It worked. Training done...well, that was a major first step anyways, and seeing as this isn't your cat its where you should stop.

The twitching you're describing is pretty much what I was talking about, in this exact case (watching flies) he's excited, so he's twitching a few small muscles in an effort to hold mostly still while 'hunting'.

...and now I'll address the dogs again.

I'm not saying you were abusive, I'm saying that the method your describing (rolling the dig onto his back and holding him there, tapping his nose, ect) is one based on junk science - which has since been proved false - and popularized by a particular handsome and charismatic fellow who IMO should never have been allowed in front of a camera.

I've posted many articles in the past by scientists, respected organizations, and certified behaviorists (who actually went to school and have degrees, as compared to some guy who likes dogs) abput how dominance theory has no place in training, or any sort of interaction with animals. Feel free to check my statistics to look at those.

Also, domestic cats aren't wolves, dogs, lions, cougars, or whatever. They are cars. Unfortunately there has been very little research on their social structure because the only groups without human interaction to taint them still just can't be representative. Luckily there is behaviour theory which is applicable to all animals and mammals in particular.

Behaviour theory is what new trainers are using in professional venues around the world. Zoo animals are being taught behaviours to help reduce the stress of procedures necessary in captivity. Dogs with serious behavioural issues are being retrained using humane methods to permanently change their reactions.

...and still some people have to choose the easy way and use intimidation to 'teach' their pets. Please just don't.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as impatient, but this particular issue has come up a LOT lately and its pushing my buttons a bit too frequently.

Feel free to pm me for more info on why dominance isn't true.


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## jusjim (Jun 30, 2009)

Cats like to be in charge of their own lives. Zenobi was very strict about this except when she was outside.

Missy likes to have her own way, but often, sort of as a favour, she'll defer to my wishes. 

Zenobi bit me, in anger, so I offered the other hand; her anger vanished. Long story; no time. Kindness works. 

Dogs usually want to know someone is in charge. Even so, kindness works best.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

I never rolled my dog onto his back and held him there -.- I rolled him over so he would know what I was talking about. I think the two of us had quite a bit of fun doing it. As I said before, all the alpha stuff was just when the dogs were pups and needed someone to teach them. Dogs just need that parent/alpha in one way or another.

As for this cat, yes I do find someone needs to be in charge, at least if it wants human interaction. Two of the room mates are just scared of the thing and I...well I guess I just expect more. If theres not mutual respect and trust here (Im not going to scold it for no reason and its not going to bite me for no reason) then whats the point. We chased a bug around together tonight and it was fun. We cuddled, used the toy, all good! No bites. I can even take the bites when they happen, people heal. But I cant be this cats whole life and if no one teaches it it can't get away with it, I will have to be (no one else will put up with how it was).

My last dog died early of cancer and we all cried like babies right in the room with him. Honestly the worst day of my life. I really don't want this cat to have to live alone an not played with and loved and well that just means some rules.

This girl has been home all of 4 nights in the 3 weeks Ive been here. Someone needs to take an interest. Honestly no one was brushing or playing with this cat EVER before I arrived.

I hope your right about the twitching and its not tumors or something. i've never seen it in a dog at all and it was really worrying me. I would drop money to fix the cat but I would rather not have to or put the cat through that.

Also, do people walk cats? The guy at the petstore told me it was a bad idea but I think I was holding him up from a break.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I'll leave the behavior advice to the experts. Please don't feel beat up on, they just really (*really*) care. I simply pay the rent, my girls are in charge here.

As far as taking your cat for a walk, well, it isn't so much as a walk in most cases, it's your cat _taking _you on his adventure. My friends who have let their cats out_ part-time_ have regretted it. I know it's not the case for everyone, but their cats wanted out ALL the time after that, scratching the door, carpet, baseboards, windows, etc. 

By the way, Dimitri is gorgeous!!!!!!


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

I agree with Marie73 - walking might be a fun idea and she may love it, but once you start that cat will become addicted to the great outdoors and will cry and cry to be let out - on HER terms, not yours! I don't think I would go down that road (no pun intended).

As to the biting. This cat sounds EXACTLY like my Lacey when we first got her (only Lacey is skinny). She would bite if you stroked her in the wrong places or absent mindedly. A very loud and forceful *NO!* has helped tremendously. It's been 9 months since we adopted her (she was also declawed) and the biting has been reduced to a very occasional nip which is gentle but still unwanted so I still use a _NO_ (not a loud *NO! *Declawing removes their defenses and they know it. They will strike back in anyway they can if they feel threatened or overstimulated. 

Thanks for showing kindness and love to this girl. It may be a lengthy process but I'm sure you are on the right track if you employ some of the suggestions here and you will gain a new friend. Establishing trust in adult cats takes time - sometimes lots of time but it is so worth it. Do you know how old she is??


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Nakor said:


> I never rolled my dog onto his back and held him there -.- I rolled him over so he would know what I was talking about. I think the two of us had quite a bit of fun doing it. As I said before, all the alpha stuff was just when the dogs were pups and needed someone to teach them. Dogs just need that parent/alpha in one way or another.


Whether you held him there or not it's still an alpha roll to physically maneuver the dog onto it's back..and it doesn't work. Or, rather, it does, but you're risking the dog having a very negative reaction and becoming aggressive. I'm not making this up, I have seen people create aggression in their dogs by using methods like this. THAT'S why I'm so against it.

I'm not saying you didn't love your dogs, or that you're a bad person. I'm simply saying that whoever taught you to 'train' your pets this way was wrong and I hope you look into other methods if/when you do have another puppy.

Again - being the 'alpha' isn't needed. I think of myself as a parent to my cats (not in the creepy 'my cats ARE children' way); I set the rules, mostly for safety, I enforce the rules fairly by first making sure I have taught them what is not allowed and what to do instead, and if I need to correct any sort of negative behaviour I use my brain first and my hands and voice second. That's what it comes down to for me.



Nakor said:


> As for this cat, yes I do find someone needs to be in charge, at least if it wants human interaction. Two of the room mates are just scared of the thing and I...well I guess I just expect more. If theres not mutual respect and trust here (Im not going to scold it for no reason and its not going to bite me for no reason) then whats the point. We chased a bug around together tonight and it was fun. We cuddled, used the toy, all good! No bites. I can even take the bites when they happen, people heal. But I cant be this cats whole life and if no one teaches it it can't get away with it, I will have to be (no one else will put up with how it was).


It's fine to expect more and to want mutual trust and respect, but you can't walk into a new home and expect that to magically happen within a short span of time. Especially if no one is really interacting with this cat it will take time before it trusts you completely. Any sort of physical corrections and you're eroding the trust you've begun to build, it's counterproductive.

You're right that it needs to learn, but you're wrong about the method. IMO you get what you give. If you physically correct the cat it will physically correct you. Simple.

If you can change your behavior and the cat doesn't feel the need to bite any more doesn't that also solve the problem? I have a real issue with 'trainers' who put an animal in a situation where they are set up to fail. To be clear I'm speaking about certain TV trainers here, not you - They know a dog is anxious around new people, so they storm in and corner the dog then act all surprised when this dog they have thoroughly terrified bites. OF COURSE it bit!

Same thing for this cat, but a different level of intensity. You're new, so the cat doesn't' yet trust you. You pet it, it gives great kitty body language about when it's becoming over stimulated, but you don't stop (because you don't know what the cat is trying to say, no blame) so the cat bites. If the cat could talk he'd be saying "Dude, stop touching me. DUDE, cut it out! Ok, that's it!" Chomp.

The issue is miscommunication, but in none of that is the solution to teach the cat it should just 'put up with' whatever you're dishing out. Again, I'm not blaming you, if you've never owned cats you just didn't know the body language, but it doesn't make the cat wrong to tell you it had enough.

Do you get what I'm saying??



Nakor said:


> My last dog died early of cancer and we all cried like babies right in the room with him. Honestly the worst day of my life. I really don't want this cat to have to live alone an not played with and loved and well that just means some rules.


I've never disputed that, there are definitely rules in my house too. The issue is in how you enforce them and if you actually have taken the time to teach the cat what is unacceptable and what they can do instead. I don't feel it's fair to just start punishing to enforce this new rule that you sat down and spoke to the cat about. Cats don't understand english, so talking to it, telling it off, ect is not effective. You need to teach it what the other choices are...and modify YOUR behavior to help the cat change theirs.



Nakor said:


> This girl has been home all of 4 nights in the 3 weeks Ive been here. Someone needs to take an interest. Honestly no one was brushing or playing with this cat EVER before I arrived.


This is pretty much exactly how I got Jitzu...except that there was a guy living with us who 'played' with her like she was a lab. Jitzu thought he was trying to kill her, he thought they were both having a lot of fun. Similar miscommunication issues. The guy and I had a few chats, and I started working on building her trust, and now I've got a sweet little cat who still has personal space she expects to be respected...but TBH I'm fine with that. I don't let random people run up and ruffle my hair or touch me, so why should my cat have to let that happen?



Nakor said:


> I hope your right about the twitching and its not tumors or something. i've never seen it in a dog at all and it was really worrying me. I would drop money to fix the cat but I would rather not have to or put the cat through that.


Yup, I'm quite sure. It's really common actually 



Nakor said:


> Also, do people walk cats? The guy at the petstore told me it was a bad idea but I think I was holding him up from a break.


Some people do, but before you can think about anything like that you need to spend a lot more time with this cat. If you take the cat outside now you'll just be one more terrifying thing, but if you wait until the cat trusts you a lot more then the cat will feel safer outside with you.

Overall you're headed in the right direction. Just...tone down the 'dominance' stuff. It's useless.


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## cat owner again (Dec 14, 2012)

All I can say is I hadn't had cats for years but I had dogs. It has been quite a change over to the different animal. They are VERY different. My daughter recently told me you try to pet your cat like a dog - well no wonder he was giving me light warning bites. Dogs usually are much more anxious to please. I am not a good trainer but I sure would like to get better. I agree a lot with what has been said. My daughter trained her sensitive breed dog and 3 cats without raising her voice or any physical dominance. They are all well behaved; the dog extremely well trained and happy. She had the patience and continuity of action.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Honestly for the last time about the rolling. When your teaching your dog to roll over, you just have to roll him over. At worst he was just very confused when we started, not dominated. This was a big dog, if he really didn't like it he would have gotten up and walked away, he just loved the attention (and constant flow of treats). And it would take a lot to convince me that being in charge in a dogs mind isn't important. At the end of the day, its an animal and you never EVER want it thinking its in a position to teach you a lesson, especially with a lot of kids around and you have large breeds. The only time our dog showed any aggression ever was when someone pushed my sister over and he tackled with a light bite (didn't break skin). We were worried but nothing came of it...probably should't be pushing a little girl with a dog right there anyway. And the one time he got a bag of dill pickle chips, full, behind the sofa. It was not a good idea to try and take it from him.

As for the cat I wasn't whacking it when it nipped from being over pet, I had already read up on over stimulation and petting aggression (I would just stand up at the signs of it) and Im getting better at reading the cat now too. It was the random bites when it was just lieing next to you or when it really sunk in (bleeding down my arm from back claws and two bite marks before I could get the **** thing off my lap). I didn't walk in and magically expect it all to happen right away and then punish when it doesn't. My efforts were to train, not punish, specifically he didn't even know what "No" meant, in any tone of voice. So associate "No" with the whack, then use "No" was what I was doing, and I will stop since you guys and your resources are telling me cats are really sensitive and get offended and have trust issues, but it has worked. If I say No now he cuts it right out and still seems to love me. Ill try clapping since Im not sure he will understand high pitch things are bad since one of the room mates randomly chases him sometimes while trilling :roll:

Good to hear the cat isn't dying either.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Nakor said:


> Honestly for the last time about the rolling. When your teaching your dog to roll over, you just have to roll him over.


Nope, you don't. I've done it exactly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKOlU7q6bEQ

Tada!



Nakor said:


> And it would take a lot to convince me that being in charge in a dogs mind isn't important. At the end of the day, its an animal and you never EVER want it thinking its in a position to teach you a lesson, especially with a lot of kids around and you have large breeds.


Actually I think it's much more dangerous to believe you EVER have control of their mind. You don't and you can't. They have a brain and instincts and no amount of training will change that. You CAN influence their behaviour, and you can choose what you expose them to, but without fail every dog I've met who was raised with the midset you're describing have been the only dogs I've met who have that mindset.

Dogs are like mirrors, and they will show you what you show them.

Try this:

You have a puppy and you raise them to think you are in charge because you're the biggest and strongest. You can take things from them because you're bigger, you can handle their body because you're stronger, ect.

Once day a young child comes over and tries to grab something from the dog. In a split second the dog assesses the strength of the child and realizes the child is not stronger or bigger. The dog bites because they have been taught that whoever is stronger and bigger gets to make the rules.

I HAVE SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN EYES. More than once, luckily each time the dog stopped short of a bite, or merely growled. Commonly the person who wa being corrected by the dog was the male owner's wife, who had no interest in training via dominance.

Now, this is the method I use:

You get a puppy and teach them that when they give you things the get yummy treats, when you hold their paws they get treats, when they are uncertain your will praise them and show them the right choice. They learn that giving items to humans means they'll get something even better in return, and then their own toy back.

A child comes over and grabs the dog's bone, the dogs looks to you for their reward.

Seriously, this is what I do. I have rehabilitated a number of dogs who were trained using dominance and became resource guarders because of it. It's wonderful what happens when life doesn't need to be about 'who's tougher'. 



Nakor said:


> The only time our dog showed any aggression ever was when someone pushed my sister over and he tackled with a light bite (didn't break skin). We were worried but nothing came of it...probably should't be pushing a little girl with a dog right there anyway. And the one time he got a bag of dill pickle chips, full, behind the sofa. It was not a good idea to try and take it from him.


...you do know that if the dog had actually bitten he might be put down, right? That is a LARGE part of why I disagree with dominance training. If you teach the dog that the biggest and strongest is always in control you don't know what they'll choose. If you never teach the dog to react physically they simply won't learn it. (In an normal situation, there are exceptions, obviously, but speaking broadly here.)



Nakor said:


> As for the cat I wasn't whacking it when it nipped from being over pet, I had already read up on over stimulation and petting aggression (I would just stand up at the signs of it) and Im getting better at reading the cat now too. It was the random bites when it was just lieing next to you or when it really sunk in (bleeding down my arm from back claws and two bite marks before I could get the **** thing off my lap). I didn't walk in and magically expect it all to happen right away and then punish when it doesn't. My efforts were to train, not punish, specifically he didn't even know what "No" meant, in any tone of voice. So associate "No" with the whack, then use "No" was what I was doing, and I will stop since you guys and your resources are telling me cats are really sensitive and get offended and have trust issues, but it has worked. If I say No now he cuts it right out and still seems to love me. Ill try clapping since Im not sure he will understand high pitch things are bad since one of the room mates randomly chases him sometimes while trilling :roll:
> 
> Good to hear the cat isn't dying either.


Well...I'm glad you're reading the suggested resources. I hope you do keep it up and stick around to learn more.


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## sweetcuddles (Jun 30, 2013)

From reading this thread, it sounds like Nakor is using everything possible before resorting to physical discipline. Yes physical discipline should always be a last resort. I went three to four weeks with Skittles peeing everywhere but the litter box, this is after Kitty passed, before I started disciplining her. She has a possible UTI but I got her to keep using the litter box even if it hurts, by giving her treats and talking to her and showing her that I was going to get her to the vet by emailing for the Jimmy Fund. Animals do understand between good and bad behavior. 

Dogs do need someone to be dominate over them, otherwise they will be destructive and do what they want. There are breeds that are very stubborn.

Cats want to please their owners, as well as dogs. You have to teach them right from wrong, otherwise they are going to think that what they are doing is right when it is wrong.

Dogs originated from the wolf. Man domesticated the wolf in order to have a best friend/companion. So yes dogs do need a pack leader, or alpha.

Rabbits have a hierarchy. All animals have a hierarchy.

We as humans have to be alpha to our pets, dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. Otherwise they will dominate and will be destructive.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

And here was me thinking we had taught or dog how to be gentle without purging the personality (the whole pushing and half biting thing).

For rolling over, sure why not, you can teach it that way. I had a bunch of fun wrestling around with my dog and so did he. I point blank refuse for you to tell me for that dog that was the wrong way to do it. Maybe a much less loved untrusting dog would freak out, I don't know, I've never raised one.

Your examples of looming over a dog or hitting it to teach it how to extend its paws instead of treats are so far removed from what I'm talking about they're irrelevant. As I said the only time anything physical was ever done to the last dog was throwing (literally yes) into the kennal after really screwing up, and when this pup chews on power cables she gets a nose tap (above the move, not on the soft part). Your talking about like guard dog training or something where I'm talking about a friendly as retriever. And before anyone jumps on me over retrievers, we were not in the know about the breeding problems. Our new dog, still a puppy, is a mix (its also a crazy vicious lawn mower of fingers and faces, last time my dad skyped in he was hold her petting her going "awww isnt she so sweet" while she adamantly tried to eat his left arm.)

I agree mostly with sweetcuddles, although how you alpha a rabbit I have no idea haha. But if cats don't have a natural hierarchy I'm not silly enough to think I can convince it of one. But as I said, at this point, I have taught it "No" so that will probably be enough to keep it in line for the most part.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

PLEASE read these articles! And for goodness sake, dogs are not wolves. Cats are not dogs. Dominance, the way we currently use the word as popularized by a certain TV trainer (RAWR!!!!) IS NOT A THING.

Science to prove what I'm saying is true and widely accepted as current and true in the relevant scientific fields. (Not random internet memes.  )

Originally posted, by myself, here: http://www.catforum.com/forum/37-behavior/222930-no-means-no-3.html

Sources:

Yes, most of these pertain to dogs, but you can assume that it also relates to all animals. I have specifically dug up some cat-specific articles, but the simple truth is that dog behaviour is a much more highly researched field.

Do Unto Others: Intimidation in dog training Love and a Six-Foot Leash
An online article about intimidation and 'dominance' based training.

Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and
non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs
showing undesired behaviors
That is the title of the article that is based on a scientific study. Link: http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospit...ingArticle.pdf

Specific to a certain TV trainer and vocal proponent of dominance based methods in training: Mary Harwelik - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN 

Jackson Galaxy, a certified behaviourist on punishment based training for cats: Squirt Bottles, Punishment, and Cat Behavior | Little Big Cat

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior, article addressing dominance theory in training animals
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit..._statement.pdf

Article from the same group on punishment based training
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit...nts1-25-13.pdf

Article by Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist about dominance based training
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University

Dominance myths, addressed by the American Association of Professional Dog Trainers
Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities

Position statement by the American Association of Professional Dog Trainers
Dominance and Dog Training

Dog training article by Jean Donaldson Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers

Dog Training | College of Veterinary Medicine

What’s my point? Dominance in cats IS NOT A THING. It certainly doesn’t apply the way most people think it does, and it shouldn’t be used in training no matter what.


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Cats are very different than dogs...and even when I had my dogs...I never hit them they got put on their backs and a close stern talking too...that's it 

Thank you for taking the time to try and help this poor cat

Airplane aers in cats is ohhhhh so different....my female dog always gave me airplane ears (toy in mouth included) when I got home from work  I miss her!!!! (RIP my lil princess!)


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Also to those who answered about walking, good call. The cat wants infinite more attention than he did when I got here and I don't think I could handle even more just yet if I started walking him and he loved it to death.

About the dominance thing I can see I hit a sore spot.

1) I don't think I ever did dominance training on the level your talking about, my dogs just seemed to fall in line more or less naturally.
2) I don't know who this person on TV is you seem to hate.
3) Yes as I said, I see this does not work on cats in term of dominance. Sure taught him what No meant quick enough though, and it had to be quick if I wanted any skin left. Now that we have some communication I don't see a spray bottle or anything else being required.

Oh and about the wet cat food, I would have to bring that kind of thing up with the owner, not sure how to go about that exactly. Other than the toys she doesn't really know I've taken an interest (how would she shes never home!)

Edit: Theres also a full bag of catnip in the pantry I found today. Does it go bad? Should/how does one use it properly or does this whole forum think just say no to catnip.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Sorry, it is a sore spot. I'm unfortunately just having a bad few days and I've been a bit more...confrontational that usual. I'm sorry if I've come off as too angry, it's not my usual style.

I don't hate him (Caesar Millan), but I find it frustrating in the extreme when people try to use his methods because they are based on faulty science that has been disproved. Even though this 'trainers' methods have been called out and corrected time and time again by groups like the American Association of Pet Dog Trainers and many other high profile respected groups Dominance Theory still abounds among most people you talk to about any sort of training or behavior related to any sort of pet.

That's part of why I find it so frustrating. It's a faulty theory that bled over into any sort of interaction between people and animals because it does seem to 'work' on most individual animals..and it's easy and quick. The concerning part is that while it might 'work' it also can create some very deep seated issues within the animals taught that way and causes aggression to be brought forward in a (not small) portion of pets.

Basically it's false, dangerous, and there are better methods. *shrugs*

To answer your question about catnip; while it doesn't technically 'go bad' it does lose potency over time like any dried herb. You can got ahead and sprinkle it on his post, or just onto the floor. I've found that about 25% of cats couldn't care less about catnip at all, and some that DO like it (like my Jitzu) go a little...nuts for it. Jitzu gets her 'nip fix separately from the other cats because it makes her a bit aggressive.

It's not something they need, but there's certainly no harm in it. My other three will happily drool all over and rub themselves on the floor while enjoying their share of catnip. I only give it to them once a month or so, but that's only because of the amount of time it takes Jitzu to come down from her high, lol.

I know quite a few people who give catnip on a daily basis and have for years. It's perfectly fine


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Careful on catnip..mine get a lil crazy (excited)on it


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## annegirl (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi Nakor Fair play to taking on Dimitri. His life will be so enriched by your caring. The potency of catnip can be diminished over time as it is essentially a herb but should be fine to use. You can sprinkle on food or just put some on a rug, tie it up in an old sock as a toy etc. It sounds like you are getting to understand Dimitri and the more you play with and pet, brush and care for him the more he will trust you as long as you respect his limits. Good luck


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

I get your anger in terms of violence to animals. If you think I'm rough on the cat for some love taps you wouldn't want to see what I would do to a person who was actually beating an animal. When I was young (real young) I got in a fight over people stepping on ant hills. I shudder to think of how long I would be in jail if anyone every hurt my dogs...

Ya I've never heard of that guy, 100% of my dog experience is from watching my dad handle ours. They loved him and he loved them more but he was the only one they would TRULY listen to, best buddies sort of thing. If they did something wrong they would always slink around, I'm sure you know what I mean, but they would ease up around us until he came home, then it was slinking again.

Ill try out the catnip, if it gets him excited maybe he'll burn some calories.


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Say yes to catnip! I've been meaning to pick up a bag, we got the spray stuff for his scratching tower, and a few of his toys, and he always licks them, I'd love to see him eating the herbs 

As for the pawing behaviour you were talking about before, it could just be playful, didn't mean to make you nervous there! I'd have to see it to know, but you probably have a good idea, you seem to be getting to know this cat very well. I was just speaking from experience with a declawed cat, they tend to get over-excited, and aggressive much more quickly than cats with their front claws, which is understandable!

Love what you're doing for this cat, sounds like he's already ten X better than when you walked in from just a little attention.


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## sweetcuddles (Jun 30, 2013)

Librarychick: try training a very stubborn dog that no matter what you do it will not listen to you. I bet that you would resort to physical discipline. Same with cats, they can be very stubborn. Cats are easier to get out of the stubbornness though.

Also wolves were domesticated. If dogs aren't wolves, then why are there breeds, like the wolf hybrid? Dogs originally came from the wolf, goes back a long way.

Another thing, neutering a cat does not stop it from fighting. Cats still fight, just not because of hormones. All neutering a cat does is get rid of the hormones, actually that happens with any animal, but they still do fight.

Thank you Nakor for mostly agreeing with me.

I haven't trained rabbits before. You just have to be the top bunny.

Also, tapping a dog is not abuse or setting it up for failure.


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## Zephyriddle (Mar 28, 2012)

sweetcuddles said:


> Librarychick: try training a very stubborn dog that no matter what you do it will not listen to you. I bet that you would resort to physical discipline.


No. There is no such thing as a stubborn dog, just a trainer who doesn't know what that dog will work for and how to motivate it. I'll say it again, there is NEVER any NEED for punishment in the training of any animal. Anyone who says the cant train a dog using only positive methods just sucks as a trainer. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

sweetcuddles said:


> Also wolves were domesticated. If dogs aren't wolves, then why are there breeds, like the wolf hybrid? Dogs originally came from the wolf, goes back a long way.


....and you don't think their temperament/personalities/trainability has changed in 12,000 years of domestication and alteration? HOWEVER, let's use your analogy and say they ARE like wolves, I'd like to see you use dominance to train a wolf.... give it a shot and message us back if you survive.


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

I've owned lots of Dogs! I own two now! One is an American Pit Bull Terrier and the other one is a Border Collie! The 'BC' was raised around cats, the 'Pittie' was not, she was 13 moths old when I got her from the rescue, she had to adjust to another dog and all the cats! It was all done with time, patience, play and a reward system!! AND it worked! Its called being
"CONSISTENT! " and having Everyone on the same page as far as commands go!
If you have to resort to physical punishment, you're NOT using your Brain!
To 'Beat' an animal requires no Brain Power...any 'Dufus' can do that!!

As far as Spaying and Neutering does not end fighting... (?) IT Does as far as Tom Cats go and intact Queens!
Will an animal still fight? Of course, if its fighting to protect itself! Whether its from another cat or dog or US!

Honestly People!! :banghead:


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Clicker training works good too...dogs and cats. To correct my cats I loudly say no and either clap or snap my finger..it works . I also try and divert with a toy...don't bite momy bite this....


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

When my 2 boys used to get in fights frequently, I had a can of pennies I would shake (which scared the crap out of them). So associating a negative behavior with a sound that scares them is the best form of behavior modification with cats. I would NEVER resort to physical "punishment". They don't understand why they're being punished, and will eventually react badly. 

The only time I've used physical contact with a dog is when you're teaching them to sit, and you (gently) push their rumps down so they associate sitting with the command. Otherwise, I don't think it's effective. They react better to positive reinforcements.


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Most dogs thrive on positive reinforcement and praise, praise, praise. They are always looking to please their owners. Cats aren't really like that (except for a few)


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

gizmothecat said:


> Most dogs thrive on positive reinforcement and praise, praise, praise. They are always looking to please their owners. Cats aren't really like that (except for a few)


I think that's because cats view themselves as owners of us.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

sweetcuddles said:


> Librarychick: try training a very stubborn dog that no matter what you do it will not listen to you. I bet that you would resort to physical discipline.


I have dealt with those dogs, and I have successfully changed their behaviour using persistence, clear communication (by which I mean offering the correct choice, not yelling), and rewarding steps in the right direction. I have NOT resorted to any sort of physical correction.

Please read the articles I posted on the other page, I have read all of them and I will gladly read any articles you choose to post...but I will also vet their sources and accuracy. Feel free to do the same with mine. 



sweetcuddles said:


> Same with cats, they can be very stubborn. Cats are easier to get out of the stubbornness though.


...nope. 



sweetcuddles said:


> Also wolves were domesticated. If dogs aren't wolves, then why are there breeds, like the wolf hybrid? Dogs originally came from the wolf, goes back a long way.


Similar but different animals can breed in many different families and Genus, just because they can interbreed doesn't make them the same.

Coyotes and wolves can also interbreed. Does that make wolves coyotes? Nope.

Horses can interbreed with donkeys, and zebras, does that make donkeys and zebras horses? Nope.

Wolves were domesticated millions of years ago, and dogs have mostly interbred amongst themselves keeping their bloodlines largely separate. More so as some breeds became smaller and significantly less likely to interbreed with a wolf. A Shih Tzu lost in the woods, in heat or not, would end up a snack rather than with wolf hybrid pups.

Also, technically wolves and dogs came from the same ancestor...one which is no longer around. They split within the same species, and they came from the same place, but that doesn't make them identical by any means.



sweetcuddles said:


> Another thing, neutering a cat does not stop it from fighting. Cats still fight, just not because of hormones. All neutering a cat does is get rid of the hormones, actually that happens with any animal, but they still do fight.


...while this seems irrelevant to the conversation, TBH, I'll still address it.

Neutering doesn't prevent all fighting, but in cats who spend time outdoors it does remove some of the intensity and interest. Females don't need to protect young, males have smaller territories, and because they aren't reproducing their bodies need less food to sustain breeding fitness.

That doesn't mean they can't fight, it just reduces their reasons for fighting...thereby reducing the amount of fighting that goes on.



sweetcuddles said:


> I haven't trained rabbits before. You just have to be the top bunny.


...I also have not trained bunnies before, but I find the idea of being 'top bunny' absolutely hilarious.

I'm picturing someone standing over a bunny with their chest puffed out, and the bunny making a face like 'ok dude, you do that.' *munch munch munch*. Thanks for the giggle.



sweetcuddles said:


> Also, tapping a dog is not abuse or setting it up for failure.


Abuse no, but it also isn't necessary. Why would you use physical methods if you don't need to? I'll never understand why people instantly resort to hitting, or pushing, or 'tapping', or w/e. Why on Earth wouldn't you simply apply the smarts you were given to manage the situation without having to force your way through things? I'll never understand it.

To me it's like if you had a car lying on it's side and you push it onto the roof to move it rather than pushing the other way and using the wheels. It's counterproductive and you're damaging it...why not just use the wheels and have everything go smoothly?

To the poster who said they push the dog's bum to get them to sit: that has actually been linked to higher instances of hip problems in seniors. Pushing on their hips can increase the chances of arthritis or make it come on sooner, especially in larger dogs.

The easiest way to teach a sit, especially to a pup, if to hold a treat to their nose, then lift it slightly up and over their head. The vast majority of puppies will sit as their nose goes up following the treat. Tada! A sit with no force. Nice and easy.

Once they have caught on you can use your empty hand to get the same behaviour, rewarding once they have sat and removing the 'bribe' from the equation. Works like a charm.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

You remind me of the story about the dire hard feminist, she walks in and announces all mailmen will now be mailwomen. When everyone balks they just say how about mailpeople and she gets her real goal.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

I'm not sure how to take that...so I'm deciding it's a compliment.

The reason I'm passionate about this isn't because I think I'm always right, or that winning an argument with people on the internet is my biggest goal...it's because I picture the animal on the other end of the 'training' and I can't help but do everything in my power to maybe change one persons mind.

Maybe it won't be yours, and I'm betting it won't be sweetcuddles...but someone reading this will check out one of the articles and start to question what they know.

I used to watch the dog whisperer on tv and I had no problem with his methods, but the more I learned and read and researched the more uncomfortable I became with his methods. And then he came to town while I was a dog trainer at PetSmart *headdesk*, my patience for Ceasar Millan and all things dominance theory sort of evaporated after that. I do try to respond politely...but as I mentioned before this hasn't been a stellar week for me and it's coming out a bit in my level of frustration and lower than normal level of tact. *shrugs*


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## DeafDogs&Cat (Mar 27, 2013)

For Pete's sake! I've written 2 long winded replies and lost them both! I give up! At least for tonight. I might try again tomorrow. Suffice it to say, I agree with Librarychick!


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Nakor said:


> I never rolled my dog onto his back and held him there -.- I rolled him over so he would know what I was talking abou.


She was held long enough for me to say NO (2 seconds)...that's what dogs do. Never hit her or chased her down the stairs yelling at her the way you did with the cat. My dogs never cowered the way you say yours did when they did something wrong......my dogs weren't afraid of me. I was told by many members of my breed (on a forum like this) to roll her. My female was a VERY dominant female...she ran the house and all the animals in it..the humans too. She was a rescue from a puppy mill raid. She HATED kids. She had to know that I ran the house not her, that she can't lunge at kids out on our walks..or anything else. She was a great dog once she got structure and learned how to live in a home. Something she knew nothing about. She was a very loving little dog when she learned to relax


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Once again, please read the articles I posted earlier in the thread.

Alpha rolling (or whatever you're calling it) can have unintended consequences...aside from being unnecessary.

Let me explain why I disagree with alpha rolls before I go to bed.

Everyone always says 'it's what dogs do to each other', like they've seen it happen. First of all - no, they don't. Not the way everyone 'imitates' anyways. There are three ways this actually happens in a dog society where the animals are well socialized:

1. A mother disciplines her pup who has ignored multiple early warning signs (looking away, tight mouth, lip lift, growl, more serious growl, snap, THEN physical correction... not nothing, nothing, nothing, correction. Just BTW) and has continued doing whatever it is that's unacceptable. She would gently hold the pup by his neck, not just nipping the scruff, so stop that nonsense, for a fraction of a second. The pup then settles down and moves on to another activity...until they're distracted by something.

This is restricted to pups under 3 months. Never done to one adult by another.

2. One dog is doing something unacceptable, jumping, stealing a toy, w/e and the other dog disagrees. The dog who's space has been infringed upon will give off a multitude of signals, and if they are ignored will then either rush or snap at the offender. In most cases the misbehaving or rude dog will then VOLUNTARILY roll over, displaying their belly in a gesture of appeasement. The dog who was being bothered will pause for a short time, then will turn away and go about their day.

This is most common with a puppy over 3 months, but before adulthood...although since dogs commonly are not well socialized in one way or another mental age is more of a factor than actual physical age. A dog who acts like a teenager will be treated like a teenager by other dogs.

3. A poorly socialized dogs rushes another, grabs it by the neck forces it to the ground, and aggressively holds it there. Commonly part of a fight.

...anyone notice the trend? Well socialized dogs give off a TON of prior signals (most of which we simply aren't capable of), then when they have no other option will assert themselves in an effort to control a younger more boisterous dog...without holding them in place physically.

I have no shame in admitting I have used my body posture, tone, and a situation to cause a problem dog to offer submission. I never touched the dog, simply stiffened my body, used a harsh tone, and had allowed a group of dogs to offer the other warnings. This was at a dog daycare I worked at, with over 25 dogs together in a large space.

If you can cause a dog (who is not a naturally submissive animal) to offer a roll, go for it. But be aware that a dog who is naturally submissive may be made very anxious by the body language needed.

Please, PLEASE stop forcing your dogs to roll over! When done in punishment it can create very serious aggression issues, not to mention trust issues. There are always other options and TBH the vast majority of reasons I've heard to roll a dog boil down to 'because I can', or 'I interpreted normal dog behavior (aka chewing shoes, a puppy having an accident, ect) as an attempt to rule the world'. Neither of which are the dog's fault...just to be clear.


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## DeafDogs&Cat (Mar 27, 2013)

librarychick said:


> as an attempt to rule the world'.


To add some humour.....

Mouse and Boo are......


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Great advice about dogs, but this thread is getting too off topic.

And if one more person tells Nakor not to hit his cat, I'm going to scream. I think he gets it. Can anyone give him credit for coming here asking for help???

Okay, rant over.


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## sweetcuddles (Jun 30, 2013)

Great job Nakor, for coming here and asking for help. I am glad that you care for the cat and are trying to socialize it with yourself and teaching it that it doesn't have to be afraid of humans. That not all humans are bad and will ignore a beautiful cat. There are some humans that will give a cat attention. Great job!


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

... is this cat getting two cups of food daily?! This sounds like the real crime!


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I know! I keep forgetting to bring that up! Holy cow! No, seriously, that cat may turn into a cow! Good luck with a spray bottle then. :shock:


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

marie73 said:


> Can anyone give him credit for coming here asking for help? Okay, rant over.


I did...


gizmothecat said:


> Thank you for taking the time to try and help this poor cat


I was just stating what I was told to do with mine by very respected breed owners, breeders and rescuers on a forum just like this. Some don't agree with it..its just what I had learned...I'm done...now back to KITTIES!! =^..^=:cat3


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Its been on two cups a day for a very long time. What should I try and bring this down to, and how quickly? Still considering the wet food option too, just need to go over it with the owner.


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi Nakor!
A bunch of us have been a bit off topic...And speaking only for myself, some of my "Rant" is do in part, "to re-directed aggression" (cat behavior! ) because of another poster here--NOT You!
Sorry about that!

I think its marvelous that you're trying to help this cat!
The fact this cat has been declawed adds to its stress...
You will have to have Patience and Understanding, but I think you can do it!

If you do a little research on declawing, you will better understand what this does to a cats Psychology...

The cat is definitely being fed to much!
A cat has to "Diet" very Slowly!!
A smaller amount spread over 3 or 4 meals a day, should be the aim, especially if this cat has been free feeding!

Both You and the Cat are new to each other!
There will be a learning curve for both of you!

The biting should be directed towards a toy of some kind, so keep something handy to exchange your hand for!

Cats tummies are a lot more sensitive than a dogs...My dogs both love belly scratches, however, if I was to try the Same to my Cats, They would let me know in no uncertain terms, That is unacceptable! What my Cats DO like is a gentle belly Rub (think message) no 'scratches' or 'tickles'!!

This Cat is as confused about all the changes as you are! And it may well be that it is excited about the attention your offering it and it just quite doesn't know
how to react yet!

With what you stated, about the gal not being around that much...
It may be just You and the Cat...!! 

Wishing you the Best!


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Wow! So the cat really is eating two cups a day? I was really hoping you'd just meant half a cup twice a day. :yikes

Here is something worth reading, if you have the time:
Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition

And then this:
Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM

If you don't have time, take away this:
_Since most people free-feed dry food, the amount of calories consumed in a day is not known. In this case, figure out what you think your cat *should* weigh and plug that number into this formula:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70

Most  female cats should weigh a nice, lean 10 -11 pounds. Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range.

Using an optimal body weight of 12 pounds as an example, we come up with 233 calories/day as a starting point.

[13.6 X 12 pounds] + 70 = 233

This formula provides a very generous starting point (*usually far too generous*) so be aware that some (most) cats will not lose weight when eating the number of calories generated by this formula. I would suggest feeding according to this formula for 2 weeks and then re-evaluating the caloric needs based on the cat's weight loss, or lack thereof. Of course, if during that period of time your cat is losing weight too rapidly, you will need to increase his calorie intake immediately.

If he is maintaining his weight on the number of calories provided by the above formula, reduce the amount by 20%.

Many veterinarians recommend Hill's Prescription r/d but I cannot recommend this diet in either the canned or dry form. Both forms are low quality diets and are too high in carbohydrates. Canned r/d = 37% carbs and the dry = 36%. These foods contain a list of ingredients that would not find their way into a food bowl owned by any cat in my care. In fact, dry r/d was the diet that Molly had been on when she came to me - in horrible shape.

_... I want to note that notice the vet said_ lean _10-11 pounds for females. I have a female cat that is more like 6 pounds and with her body frame that is an acceptable weight. The key thing is lean; if my cat weighed another 4+ pounds she would look huge and weigh almost close to _double_ her ideal body weight -- which is major! I personally think 10-11 pounds is the high end for what a female should weigh.

Also, this vet is only going by calories per day. The bags of food are misleading in their feeding charts and just about always say to feed more than necessary. The important factor is number of calories, so you should find that printed on the bag per cup and go from there. Most cats need about 20 calories per pound to maintain body weight.


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

What dry food is he eating? Some are up to 400 calories per cup, so if he's eating 2 cups a day, yikes, that could be a ton of calories.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah, I wanted to add more but got timed out...

The type of food is important. You should try to feed a low carb food to lose weight... the ones marketed as weight control and such are false

You can find all of these in a pet store: EVO chicken/turkey, Instinct chicken, Now! chicken/turkey/duck version. These particular versions are lower in carbs than most all other dry foods on the market... if the owner is feeding something from the grocery store, these are a huge step up in quality and much more expensive so it may be difficult to convince them to make the change over unless they educate themselves and take an active role in their cat's nutrition (I can tell by the two cups a day this already is going to be a huge struggle... because no cat should eat that amount). 

For instance, EVO chicken kibble is 602 calories per cup. Two cups would be 1204 calories!!! Divide that by 20 (roughly the number of calories per pound of body weight) and you'd be feeding your cat like it weighs *60 pounds*.


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, those seem like very general weights, most cats I've met are good at 10 pounds or under. I know my cat would be lean at 8 and he's male, judge on a case by case basis.

Just as a reference, here is a table that shows optimal body shape, something you can reference back to, and maybe show your roommate so you can convince her about a diet change is necessary. It'll also help to show how far you have to go.










Don't be discouraged by slow weight loss, it should take about a month to lose a pound I think is what I heard. It's slow going, and that's the healthiest way!


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## Catmamma (Apr 18, 2011)

Here's a thought about the random biting. My Pippi has only claws on her left paw due to an accident. If she wants me to do something--like close the door to the garage after she has come in--and I ignore her, she will nip me to get me to close it. If she is hungry and I am late putting out the food or say writing on the forum, she will nip me. So, this cat, IMO is trying to get you to do something or not do something when it bites you. 
A word about cat and status in a group. I have observed with our barn cats that the "top cat" status is very fluid. On top one day, on the bottom the next. Lactating females have top status above all. Then participating papas, older females and, always a the bottom or close--neutered males. When the kittens are no longer nursing, the status of the females changes by the hour. With my group, whichever female I pet last is the "favored leader" for a while. Of course, I try to avoid having any unneutered females but people drop off their pregnant cats every so often. I have to budget for neutering. And, of course, I have to be able to catch the cat. Takes a while.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Hey - about the food - yes it 1 cup via 2 servings (1 cup total a day) sorry for the confusion. Also incase some of you missed it before, I bought diet food but he cant eat it as he needs special urinary tract food. Ill see if i can someone get him on a scale.

As for the declawed nipping, I was only going off on him when he clamped it or used the back claws (to great effect). Theres nipping and then theres what he WAS doing sometimes.

Side note, he was looking under the coach and I figured it was another cockroach (we sometimes have bonding experiences chasing them around although I always let them out in the end) so I pulled out the coach and there were two tiny stuffed mice. Hes going nuts hitting them around the room, never seen him solo play before. If I throw one he even takes off after it, like a tiny dog. Doesn't bring it back though...

Edit: Genius plan, Ill put it where he stands to eat. If he eats, Ill see his weight, if he doesn't, he'll lose some!


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## Venusworld21 (Oct 23, 2012)

librarychick said:


> Wolves were domesticated millions of years ago, and dogs have mostly interbred amongst themselves keeping their bloodlines largely separate.


I love reading your posts because they're so full of great and accurate information. So now I feel obligated to point out that wolves were domesticated tens of thousands of years ago, but not millions. Humans as a species (**** sapiens sapiens) have only existed for about 100,000 years.  

Carry on!


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Lol, thanks Venus 

I realized that a bit after posting and got caught by the 5 minute rule. My bf is the historian/amateur paleontologist in our house, so I was half listening to him remind me about domestication and Genus's (...or w/e the plural is, lol) and also typing. It's a good thing I don't need to take dictation!

Nakor, a good trick for encouraging exercise in chubby cats is to throw their kibble for them at meal time. Rather than feed his portion from a bowl toss a few pieces at a time and let him 'hunt' them down. It's also great entertainment for us 

I may have missed it, but did you mention how old he is?


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

Yeah, he probably won't fetch like a dog. But that's great that he's playing. You could get a really cheap laser pointer at a pet store (under $5). That really helped my 2 big kitties lose weight. Most cats go crazy for it. Once you get him exercising a bit, he should feel much better and start interacting more. 

If he's on special urinary dry food, that's all the more reason to try to get him to eat wet. It's much better for urinary issues.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

So I've got the cat chasing the toy, runs over to it, and then runs back to me. In this process he also picked up "come here" mixed with me tapping my leg. So that good. I cant seem to get him to pick up the toy in his mouth though, if I could get him to do it at all I'm sure I could teach him to carry it over when he comes back for me to throw it again.

Also for the first time since i posted this he nipped at me when i tried to pet him. But he did it MUCH lighter, barley a pinch, and when I didn't react he just looked at me and then booked it. So he at least fully knows he shouldn't be doing it.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

bump for asking how to get a cat to lift something in his mouth.

Also Im really happy with this cat now that hes stopped being a jerk. I wonder if I can sneak him away when I move out...


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## pkbshrew (Feb 13, 2013)

One of mine; Mr Tyrion, plays fetch like a wee fanatic. BUT in my experience, you can't MAKE a cat play fetch - it is something they seem to initiate by themselves. Miss Effie used to fetch when she was younger but has grown out of it. I'll be interested to see if Tyrion persists. So far he's showing no signs of easing up yet and will play fetch for hours. hehe. 
It's great that you guys are getting along better. It sounds like he's learning to trust you and enjoy your company.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Ya, we really are! He really just needed to learn he can't get away with whatever. He still lets me know when he's had enough/I shouldn't ruffle him anymore but doesn't do it in a way that breaks skin. He also lets me ruffle him a lot more ^^

But he really gets the point of fetch, he comes back because he wants me to throw it again, I just need to teach him to bring the toy with him!

And about him now responding to come here, you ALWAYS used to have to chase him out of a room with keys or something. Now given my physical history with the cat you will all be shocked to know I don't like this method. Now every time I have to say come here and pat my legs, he will meow, Ill say it again, he'll meow, Ill do it again, then he'll get up and leave the room. Take a little longer but well worth it. I feel like the cat whisperer over here.


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## pkbshrew (Feb 13, 2013)

How lovely that he's talking to you and communicating his wishes. You're bringing a whole new side to his life. Lucky boy!! Thank you for being kind to him, patient with him and enriching his life.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

I thought I would give everyone an update on Dimitri. I have cut his food by about 15% and discussed it with his owner, so everyone should be on the same page now. I have had zero back claw incidents since my first post still. When he gets onto my lap, much like a few seconds ago, I feel safe petting him anywhere. He will, especially if i try to pet his paws, put his mouth on me like he was meaning to bite, but puts no force into it and then meander away. This is fine by me, although each time Im allowed to rub his belly and paws further. One day I swear I will pick him up and weigh him. Overall good news for our cat, other than the spaghetti sauce I caught him eating. His diet makes him much more of a scavenger!


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

That's great news that he's coming around. Is he still playing fetch and exercising? That should help tremendously with his weight loss. But overall, he sounds happier with the interaction!  You can probably gradually decrease his food a bit more as well. Is he still eating all dry or have you tried introducing any wet food yet? We food usually is lower in carbs, so that should help him lose more weight.

BTW - I would be careful with the human food. Spaghetti sauce most likely has garlic and onions in it, which are both toxic to cats!


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

He didnt get much and seems fine to date. I finally tried picking him up, I got a big meow but he dealt with it and didn't run away after. He weighs 20.3 pounds, Im keeping a record so I can track it. I talked to the owner about wet food but she bought dry again so not so much I can do there at the moment.


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## emilyatl (Sep 9, 2013)

Yeah, that's a BIG boy! It sounds like he trusts you more though if he's letting you pick him up. Well, there's only so much you can do about the food. At least you've gotten them to cut back. Definitely let us know how his weight loss goes!


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Monthly update! Pretty much bite and scratch free at all times unless I'm being a jerk and ruffling his belly or I'm going downstairs and hes ungry, which I will kind of look past since hes on such a hard diet. I can pick him up and throw him around safely now (other than possibly hurting my back lifting his girth). Hes down to about 7/10 of a half cup twice a day. I play with him often and hes got stuff to chase around although still scared of laser pointers -.-. Hes not losing any weight though best I can tell from holding him on the scale, and this is after about 3 months dieting, 1 month increased (stricter) diet. If I roll back his food anymore though he will get really irritable. I've tried looking for urinary tract friendly diet food and I'm not seeing it. If someone even knows a place online I could get that kind of thing I would buy it. I think I'm going to try out getting a leash and harness, but Ill have to make sure he can't use his sifting mass to escape. One minor issue thats come up is my gf uses keys jingling to get him out of a room; maybe thats the best way to do it but Id rather he just listened when I called. I KNOW he knows what I want now when hes on the bed and Im calling him out (he cant stay in the bedroom when were not there) because his sits on the bed and chirps and meows at me and will eventually come. But I dont want to spend 5 minutes getting him out every time. Lifting up the sheets under him makes him mad though, he will attack the sheets and your hand if its close enough, so this is probably even worse than jingling keys at him. Can you ever train a cat to just listen to you ^_-


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

Nakor, put some pennies in a can - that'll be a loud and obnoxious sound. You can put one in every room you don't want him in. Glad he is getting friendlier! I really hope you don't mean you literally throw him around!!!


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

Oh well I can use keys for that no problem. I was just asking about experience getting them to listen instead of having to "chase" him out of the room every time. 

And ya I just huck him at my gf when I cant get HER to leave the room (gf not scared of jingling keys-will try penny jar).


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## gizmothecat (Jun 26, 2013)

Throw him around safely...how do you do that?


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

ya'll need a sense of humour, I do not in fact throw my cat at my girlfriend. At worst he gets a fun toss on the bed, which he seems to love.


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## Heather72754 (Nov 1, 2013)

No, in my experience cats do not 'listen'. They usually have their own agenda that has nothing to do with whatever you want them to do. Haven't you heard the old line, "Dogs come when they're called, cats take a message and get back to you". Pretty accurate IMO. :wink:

Although seeing as he is on a diet, you might use the times when you want him out of the room as an opportunity to call him out and give him a small treat once he does come out. That might get him out pretty quickly once he knows he's going to get something he likes.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

We don't have kitty treats, the owner is really worried about another tract infection and I don't want to go against that. And I've tried enticing him with his normal food...he always looks less than impressed ha.


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## getoffmyskittle (Oct 21, 2013)

This is such a heartwarming story.  Sounds like you have a new best friend.

My male cat was dx'd once with urinary crystals as well. After speaking extensively with his vet about it, I switched him to a 100% wet diet, and chose not to go the route of the "urinary health" rx food (nutritionally, it's crap) (oh yeah, and the reason you can't find it is probably because it's prescription-only). He has never had a recurrence (original diagnosis was a year and a half ago). 

There were three things my vet emphasized:
1. water intake (hence the 100% wet diet)
2. weight control
3. stress management. 

Sounds like you are doing well for your kitty on all but the first one. If the owner can't be convinced to switch him to wet food, would she possibly be willing to buy him a fountain? Cats often don't like to drink still water in bowls because they evolved in the desert and they learned that still water = death. Evolutionarily sound, but not so great in a house.  So if the water is running, they are much more likely to drink it.

A cheap way to do this is to let the cat drink out of the faucet, but of course that method relies on you being around all the time to turn it on and off for him.


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## Nakor (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm still not sure I'm a cat person, but I've always been an animal person. Just sent this email to the owner.
______
Hey ~~~~,

I've been trying to find diet urinary food without much luck, and some people online said its probably prescription only stuff. I'm not sure if that's true but either way I cant get any. I'm going to get a new stick and string toy today (he wrecked the other one at last) and will ask the pet store people again but they don't seem to know much. I know wet food is general better for urinary tract issues since they are caused by dryness but I wouldn't want to change his diet without actually talking to someone who knows what they're doing. So I was thinking about also getting a cat leash when I go in today. The cat is really fat and its terrible on their joints and it can really cut years off their life. I hesitated before because they should walk with someone they trust since they can get nervous outside, but now that I can carry him around and what not its probably as good as it will get between us. Let me know how you feel about that!

-Matt
______

Hopefully she doesn't have a problem with the leash and makes SOME comment on the food.


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

Nakor said:


> ya'll need a sense of humour, I do not in fact throw my cat at my girlfriend. At worst he gets a fun toss on the bed, which he seems to love.


Us that have been here awhile have seen our share of idiots, so anything that may be said in jest concerning the potential abuse of cats is subject to scrutiny. You really don't want to "joke" about throwing a cat around here. There was a guy recently that said he kinda sorta threw his cat down the stairs and broke his leg then went on to say how he LOVES his cat. We don't take kindly to this sort of "play" or joke. :-x


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## Heather72754 (Nov 1, 2013)

Also, Nakor I think it's great you want to walk the cat outside, but remember that you may be creating a monster. This cat may meow repeatedly to go out and not be content inside anymore. He may get fleas or other parasites when he is outside. It is also not as good exercise for him as you would think, since it's not like walking a dog. Essentially the cat walks _you_ where _he_ wants to go - he's not going to follow and keep up a pace that would necessarily be conducive to weight loss. He may just want to smell the grass or hide under a bush - no telling.


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