# Question for breeders. Am I being impatient?



## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

As a few of you know I am looking to go visit 2 kittens in order to choose between them. One breeder has been very good at keeping in touch and we have arranged a date and time to go visit.

The other however, I have had a little trouble getting hold of. A week ago I rang up as the site stated it preferred phone contact after the initial email. The lady sounded a bit unwell on the phone so I asked if she was ok and she said she had the flu. I said I was sorry for disturbing her and asked if she would prefer me to talk to her at another time, she said yes.

3 days ago I emailed her saying that I hope she was OK, and if she wanted to discuss the kitten over the phone at her convenience that was fine (and gave her my contact numbers) or said I was fine with email communication. I havent heard from her now in over a week, and I'm getting a bit antsy. I do know that I get a little fidgety when I am waiting to do something, and I understand she has been poorly, but email contact was very frequent (even on the day I called so she must have been online)

I was just wondering what breeders (or anyone who has bought a kitten from a breeder) would consider acceptable. Would it be ok for me to call her again tomorrow? I don't want to bug her by no means, and the last phone call didnt seem particularly positive, but I do want to go see the kitten before the really busy run up to Christmas begins. Her website states 'Your enquiry is very important to us so please cal the above number if you do not recieve a reply to your email in 2 days' but I dont want to be an impatient little brat  So, should I wait, or call tomorrow...


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I don't know, it sounds a bit fishy to me. I mean, she could be busy, could be sick, but that doesn't excuse not communicating at least by email.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

marie73 said:


> I don't know, it sounds a bit fishy to me. I mean, she could be busy, could be sick, but that doesn't excuse not communicating at least by email.


I'm naturally quite pessimistic, and I have been let down in the past. I was adopting a rabbit once and was all ready to go get him, had arranged a date etc, and then no contact for a week, and on the day I was supposed to go get him they emailed saying they had found another home for him with a friend and that they were sorry... I was pretty heartbroken, I get too attached before I should (a fault of my own) so Im making sure not to do that again but I dont want to have my heart set on her only for it not to happen...

Hopefully she'll email me before Uni ends tomorrow so I wont have to make that decision. You'd think as a breeder she would like to find a nice home for a girl she has struggled to rehome due to age


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I know what you mean - especially with what I went through trying to rehome Gigi and people flaking on me. It's very frustrating.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Thats one of the reasons I put 'question for breeders' to see what people who rehome kittens a lot in this way think. Such as, if someone interested in a kitten didnt contact at all for a week, would they start considering other buyers. And would they usually not respond for such a long time even if they were busy?
Maybe shes got attached to her and didnt realise and is now wanting to keep her... Now I'm just speculating all the bad things which might be going on! :?atback


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

What's the status of your relationship? Does she know you are serious and want to come see the kitty? Bettie and I spoke on the phone and stayed in touch, emailing back and forth maybe 5-10 times a day until she met Gigi. She had a million questions and I loved answering every one of them, because it showed she cared so much about Gigi.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

I emailed her at first as her site was a little confusing (a webmaster updates it, she is older and I assume not so computer literate, I sure couldn't make a website) there were kitten pics with the heading 'typical examples of kittens' so I emailed for clarification on which kittens she had. She explained that it took too long to get the pics on through her webmaster and that they usually sold before the pics were up so the pics weren't of available kittens but she did have a seal bi colour like I had enquired about. I asked for a pix if at all possible and she sent me one saying it was best to come see them as the pic wasn't the best. I said she was gorgeous and asked her age and her cost, which she provided (saying price was lower due to size and age) and I said I would love to come visit when the snow improves. My last message to her said I had managed to get my car on the road and asked if she was spayed, no answer to that as of yet.

Wall of text, sorry. I think I will ring tomorrow and say my Internet has been down and I was worried I'd missed an email. Little White lie to avoid looking crazy maybe lol


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I hope things work out, although when you call I would just tell her the truth. If she's a breeder, then you're not bugging her. You're a potential customer. So, tell her you're currently interested in two kittens, hers and another. You have an appointment to see the other kitten and would like to set up an appointment to see the Ragdoll. Perhaps if she knows you're looking at another one, as you are, then she might wake up...assuming she truly is interested in finding a home for the Ragdoll. Good luck!


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Seriously, it's not like she's giving away a kitten. She's selling it. Susan is right, you're a customer. Call her.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Call her. If she is selling the cat, she should be willing to return your email at least - unless she is in the hospital or bedridden the women should be capable of doing that! You don't need to be a breeder to tell this person is being pretty shady and simply not a very good business women at all.

Let us know how it goes!


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

If I were you I would just drop her. She is definitely not interested, or some other circumstances are intervening. You want a breeder who will remain interested in your cat, someone you can count on for advice. Whatever is going on with this women, she is not reliable. As a former breeder I understand your frustration. It works both ways. I can remember some propspective owners who were wildly interested and then changed their mind without contacting me. Sometimes when I was able to contact them it was a partner who didn't want a cat or they were (usually) no longer able to pay the price, or had just lost a job.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I would call her, but unless you find out that she's been extremely ill and unable to respond I would write her off. This (lack of) response is indicative of what you can expect out of her going forward. And more than likely is indicative of how she runs her cattery in general. 

Have you researched how to identify a reputable breeder? There's a sticky at the top of the breeding forum. This site has an excellent article, it's Maine **** centric, but most of the info cuts across all breeds:

Maine **** Breeders and Fanciers (MCBFA): Articles


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

I am not tech savvy at all and I can respond to emails within a few seconds via blackberry. Unless she is in the hospital I don't think she has a good excuse. Even if she did have the flu when you phoned her I don't see how she couldn't get out a date book and schedule you a time to see her cats. It would take five minutes. I'm sure most of us have done some work while ill, because sometimes you need to. Go see the other kitty, I wouldn't do business with someone who made no effort.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

I agree it's not difficult to email  

I believe she is indeed a reputable breeder from what I can see on her site. She has bred ragdolls for a long time and has won a lot of shows, and has pics of prev litters in their new homes etc, though it's hard to tell without visiting. 

She will be called at around 3 this afternoon and if it's not satisfactory to me then my mind is made up.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Okay so she called me this afternoon and I just returned the call. Going to visit the kitty tomorrow at 4. She apologised for not being in contact earlier, so I am hoping everything seems okay when i go tomorrow, still a little uneasy


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Thats nice that she got back to you and that you finally have a visit. 

I would stay VERY wary and do NOT allow yourself to be hypnotized by the cute litte balls of fluff. Just remember, if you purchase from a breeder who doesn't have good business practices you are only facilitating more kittens being born into a bad situation.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

raecarrow said:


> Thats nice that she got back to you and that you finally have a visit.
> 
> *I would stay VERY wary and do NOT allow yourself to be hypnotized by the cute litte balls of fluff*. Just remember, if you purchase from a breeder who doesn't have good business practices you are only facilitating more kittens being born into a bad situation.


I am going to try my very very best not to let this happen!

As for tomorrow, what should I be looking out for? I read the very helpful link provided earlier. i do know the lady has a very good show record, and I think it is a good sign that she kept this smaller kitten on rather than just trying to sell asap? She said she is still a little small to get her spayed and its best to give her another month or so. (when are males fertile btw? Gloworm is being neutered when he hits 6 month)


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Gloworm said:


> I am going to try my very very best not to let this happen!


Good for you!



Gloworm said:


> As for tomorrow, what should I be looking out for?


I would look for any signs of illness. Things like runny eyes or noses, flea infestations, ear mites (or even just VERY dirty ears), scabby skin, patchy, dull, or dirty feeling coats are signs that the cattery isn't kept up to par. There are some breeders who have many show titles but don't treat all the cats in their cattery with the same care. I would suggest that you ask to go on a tour of the cattery and see all (or at least most) of their cats. If they try to confine you to one "visitation" area that may be a bad sign. A good cattery would be proud to show someone their operation. Also insist on meeting one or both of the kitten's parents (if at all possible). This influences the kittens adult personality and may be a good indicator of how the kitten will be when it gets older.

Hope this helps.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

I would be leery of a kitten that hasn't been sold with the rest of its litter mates. I'm not sure why the kitten being small should prevent it from selling it with the rest of them... why was it small and is it still small? Anyway, I would be on the lookout for any signs of physical or neurological problems the kitten might display.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Carmel said:


> I would be leery of a kitten that hasn't been sold with the rest of its litter mates. I'm not sure why the kitten being small should prevent it from selling it with the rest of them... why was it small and is it still small? Anyway, I would be on the lookout for any signs of physical or neurological problems the kitten might display.


I am certainly not an expert, I just try to research as best I can to do the best for the kittens I have. I am not sure if size is a legitimate reason for a kitten being rehomed later. I also don't know the typical ragdoll litter size, (if there is one) I know my kitten was the only one in his litter (with a stillborn sibling) and another kitten I am looking at again is a single kitten.

This was her exact words when I asked about the availability of seal bi point *(this is a seal bi female kitten who i have been running on as she was the smallest in the litter but she is a very pretty girl.)*

Also: *She is nearly six months and a bit small hense the price of £175 but is very 
pretty and so friendly so looking for a nice loving pet home for her.*

I know the price seems low for a ragdoll, but I do know her kittens are generally £375... Should I ask for any vetinary records? I assume that it is possible for a kitten just to be small and perfectly fine. Also I assume age has a decent part to play in the price, as I know so many people who want kittens as young as possible, and a 6 month old wouldnt be as tiny and cute as they might want...


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

She should provide you with all her records since birth, and I _believe_ some sort of a health guarantee, at least for a short time, but I'm not sure about that.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

*tries to remove paranoid thoughts from mind until I see her and her friends tomorrow*

Is it normal for a kitten to be discounted this much?


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I can't speak for the UK, but in North America, I would expect a two-year health guarantee, and I can't imagine any reason for a difference in the UK. She should also have had all of her shots and tests (FIV, FeLV, etc.), and all health records should be available. 

In addition to verifying the kitten's health, both through the health records and general observation (as outlined by _raecarrow_), I would also see what her temperamant is like. Is she skittish or nervous? Does she hide a lot? Will she come to you easily? Will she play with you with one of her interactive toys? If not...and I wouldn't be overly concerned if she's just a little shy with strangers...but then see how she acts toward the breeder. Will she sit on the breeder's lap? Can the breeder easily pick her up and carry her around, or does she run away when the breeder tries to pick her up? Will she easily play with the breeder? 

I also agree with _raecarrow_ in terms of asking for a catery tour. 

As for weight, a "typical" Ragdoll would be in the range of 6-8 lbs at 6 months old, although females will often be a bit smaller than that. Still, as long as she's healthy, I wouldn't be concerned if she's on the small side. 

I hope all goes well!


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Gloworm said:


> Is it normal for a kitten to be discounted this much?


Yes, in some cases. Cinderella was given away because she had a "flaw" on one of her paws and couldn't be bred or shown.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> Is it normal for a kitten to be discounted this much?


It's normal for kittens to be discounted as they get older. Typically, the "discounting" starts once they reach about 16-18 weeks.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> I am certainly not an expert, I just try to research as best I can to do the best for the kittens I have. I am not sure if size is a legitimate reason for a kitten being rehomed later. I also don't know the typical ragdoll litter size, (if there is one) I know my kitten was the only one in his litter (with a stillborn sibling) and another kitten I am looking at again is a single kitten.
> 
> This was her exact words when I asked about the availability of seal bi point *(this is a seal bi female kitten who i have been running on as she was the smallest in the litter but she is a very pretty girl.)*
> 
> ...


She mentions that the kitten is cute twice. Well, that's obvious. I see no mention of its health or prior vet check-ups. Definitely ask to see its records, that's your right. You want to know the shots its been given, if its spayed, any health problems. I'd also ask to see the buyer contract for the kitten, and read it carefully.

I know kitten prices can drop drastically when they get older, that's because they are harder to sell. The fact that the kitten hasn't been sold yet, to me, should mean you be extra careful. The cat can have a great personality (like the lady mentioned) but why is it already 6 months old and not sold? Some reasons can be: The previous owners returned the kitten (very important to find out why!), the cattery isn't well established and was unable to sell all their kittens, the kitten had some medical problems that needed to be tended to (very important to find out what & if they still will be a future problem - I don't consider "small" to be a condition that should prevent a kitten from being sold until its 6 months old) or the kitten doesn't get along well with other animals, which can cause it to be hard to place in a home.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Ah thank you. I assumed it was typical due to my experiences of trying to adopt older cats out from shelters. Its so hard whereas a kitten will fly out the door as soon as it comes in. Thanks for putting my mind at rest.

I did get Gloworm from a lovely breeder, so I feel reasonably confident with going tomorrow and comparing it to my experiences elsewhere. When I went for him I spent a good 2 hours or more there, and the breeder would cuddle him, showd me his parents and discussed lots of different things with me. He clipped his nails whilst I was there and I could see him with other kittens of varying ages in the room. I certainly didnt feel like a nuisance there so lets see how it goes tomorrow, and I will also be going back to Gloworms breeder on tuesday so i will have a more recent comparison


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Sorry to double post, missed my edit window. To Carmel: I will certainly ask as to why she hasnt been sold before now and ask to see the vet records. I will also ask what weight/size she considers acceptable to adopt out and why. (will make notes to relay to you guys as you have been a great help, cannot thank you enough!) I am also happy to PM anyone the website of the lady, it appears to be a very reputable breeder and as I mentioned before has good show rankings so on that side it seems good. She does however seem to breed 3 different breeds (and possibly a 4th but I am not 100% on that one...)


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> She does however seem to breed 3 different breeds (and possibly a 4th but I am not 100% on that one...)


That doesn't sound good at _all_. You need a couple of cats from each breed at least. She might be overrun with cats and that can compromise their socialization with people, among other things, like a higher likelihood of cages being used.

I've heard of breeders that breed two types of cat before, but never three or four. From my understanding of it, no reputable breeder does this. They should be highly knowledgeable in the breed they have - they should know a lot about it - it's like a research field, they should specialize. It sounds a lot more like a cash cow than a breeder.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I hope things go well for you. Even if she's not perfect, she probably really needs a good home and someone to love her.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

I am not taking any money with me tomorrow so I cannot get too excited and put a deposit down. I'll come away and have a think and also go visit the exotic kitten. Looking at the site they claim to breed ragdoll, devon rex, BSH, Tiffanies, and oriental and siamese variants. That seems a lot to me, but we shall see.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't know anything about cat breeders but if a dog breeder had that many different breeds at one time I would call it a puppy mill.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

MowMow said:


> I don't know anything about cat breeders but if a dog breeder had that many different breeds at one time I would call it a puppy mill.


I am definitely going to ask why she breeds so many diff breeds, in the nicest way possible


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I agree...that's not a breeder I would buy from. I cannot imagine that the cats are all house cats with the kittens raised underfoot, even if she says they are. I would not a support a breeder who keeps their cats in a kennel environment, no matter how cushy...it's cruel imo. They also don't end up socialized properly

Make sure you understand the health conditions that run in the breed you're considering and ask very pointed questions about the screening that is done, how far back the lines are free of issues etc. Someone breeding this many different breeds is doing it for the money imo and likely cutting corners. There's another article on the website I linked before about what it costs to breed when done right...unless this woman is independently wealthy she's not spending that kind of money on a hobby.

Why Does it Cost so Much to Breed Pedigreed Cats

Regarding the price...I did the conversion to US dollars and it comes out to be $584 for a full price kitten. In the US that would be a low price for a Ragdoll...they typically run in the $700-800 range. Prices may be lower over there, but it's something to keep in mind. I think the amount of discounting that's been done for a 6 month old kitten is extreme. Reputable breeders keep their kittens for at least 12-16 weeks. So 6 months is not all that long. If the kitten were a year old I could see that amount of discounting. Remember that bad breeding practices don't necessarily show up in kittens, it's down the road when the problems start.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

The exchange rate is pretty shoddy at the moment. I paid £400 for my pedigree exotic from a breeder recently, and they I know are really wonderful and are currently doing extremely well in the show circuit.

TBH though I am leaning more towards purchasing from them at this point. I know they are wonderful and their kittens are also wonderful. I would recommend them in a heartbeat. Anyway I was just throwing that out there that I think the normal price is fairly typical at the mo, just the exchange rate took a nose dive a couple years back and never recovered. If it puts it in perspective at all, my rent is around £600, so its 2/3 of my rent for a kitten  lol


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Rent around here is at _least_ 800, at the _very_ lowest. There's a lot of Ragdoll breeders in Canada so they seem to range from 400-700+ Canadian. When I look in classified adds online in my area they're closer to 400... and I really shouldn't have looked because there are _mink_ ones! *melts*


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

A breeder advertising in the classified ads is a red flag for me.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

I know, it is for me too. Doesn't stop me from looking and thinking they're adorable! Haha... I have two cats. No more for me!


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Well, what can I say. You were all right, I have just got home from the 'breeders' and I have been in tears all the way home. I wish I could have picked her up and ran off with her but there was noway I would ever give that breeder any of my money 

If you don't want to read a huge list of all the awful things feel free to skip, but my god. I didnt need to keep an eye out for anything in particular that seemed off, the whole thing was off. Initially the house was in a bit of disarray, but I wouldnt hold that against anyone as sometimes my house can get a bit untidy (not dirty like this though...)

Then I was taken into a room and told she would bring the kitten into me. in the room there were, no cats. None at all... except one at the back of the room in a carrier wowling horrendously...

She brought the kitten in in a small cage, which she claimed was just to transport between her '12 catteries' However, there was some raw meat in the cage, and she wasnt gone for very long, so how she went to a cattery to get her I have no idea. I am fairly sure she was living in this cage.

The kitten herself has a very dirty bum and hind legs and smelt very badly of wee  She immediately came up to me and was cuddling and was so sweet, but would not really go near the breeder. After she had had an initial cuddle she was running off and going a bit wild, more than likely because she had been cooped up in that cage 

I noticed her teeth appeared to have two long canines very close together (i had seen another member post a pic like this and she was advised to go to the vet) and this was not mentioned at all. Her claws were very very short and clipped down and didnt look quite right. I asked if she was scratch post trained (Gloworm is and is really good with using it) She told me very abruptly that 'she would use her post but she was a kitten, and not a stuffed toy, and it could be hit and miss.'

I tried on two occasions to go and see where the cats were kept. She did bring in the parents, but when I asked if i could go see the cattery she said the kittens in there were 8 weeks old and would be 'upset' if I wanted to go see them. I asked if she had any other available kittens to go see, again in an attempt to venture out of this entirely cat free room, and she said 'theyre all booked.' I wasnt getting out of that room at all... I asked about any health guarantee and she said that once purchased you just needed to insure them and that i would be responsible from all costs thereafter, in a very abrupt manner. I just felt like I was being a nuisance to her, and she didnt even seem to remember what kitten I wanted to see when I got there.

The cats definitely seemed a commodity rather than pets. They weren't carried with any emotion of affection, and when I said I was going to have a think about it and wasnt going to put a deposit down that day, she said ;well someone is coming at 6.30 so if you dont take her, they will.' If I wasnt put off by then I certainly was by this. She clearly just wanted my money and me out of there.

She said that her parents were not titled as she did not show the breeding cats as they could get injured (either at the show or during breeding) which meant they couldnt be shown/bred. She also sells her raggies normally for 295, not 400, which is very low for a raggie in general.

I'm so heartbroken as she was such a lovely kitten but I will not support these practises and I do not think this kitten would be best for Gloworm. I cannot wait now to go and see my absolutely wonderful breeders to put a deposit on blue kitten. They have such a wonderful house with a kitten room full of pristinely kept kittens which are all so obviously loved and played with every day. I am so glad I had been to that breeder before so I could see so blatantly what was going wrong in that place.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm sorry you had this horrible experience. She obviously is breeding for the money, not to better the breed. What she said about neither of the parents being titled because you can't show breeding cats is a load of BULLCRAP. A good breeder will show a cat for a year or two and then retire them to breed them. They may also show them between litters. While injuries can occur, if the breeding is done in a careful and thoughtful way they are NOT the norm.

I'm sorry you couldn't help the kitten but paying for her to get her out of the situation will only make room in the cattery for more kittens to be breed by this horrible breeder. The fact that she wouldn't show you the rest of her cats is another bad sign. She probably keeps the cats in cages only big enough to eat, sleep and eliminate. That is NOT raising them underfoot.

Go to the good breeder, you may pay more, but you will be supporting a real breeder, not some BYB hack.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh god, that's so sad. What an horrible lady. Like you said, a messy house you can get over, but abusing cats is obviously a big no. Any breeder that isn't willing to show you their other cats is keeping them in cages - and by the looks of how many cats she's breeding, that's a large number of cats. I've never been in a cattery like that, and I hope I never am!

I wonder if she can be reported...


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

She was very defensive about seeing the other cats, I tried really hard to go and see where they were.

I know Gloworms parents were all Champions of shows at some point, so as soon as she said she doesnt breed her show cats I just knew there was something really wrong.

I felt so bad when she put her back in that cage at the end but, I wont support it. I just feel so awful I couldnt save the kitten (too soft)

Oh, another thing which jarred me was when she asked what kitten I had already. She said 'Why would anyone want one of those? They can't breathe.' About my Exotic. If you want me to buy your cat, don't slag off my kitten! He has been bred wonderfully and has no breathing problems! Grr.

I dont know where her '17' catteries were but, it was a small residential area so will not have had a huge garden, so unless she had rooms upstairs I dont know but, I dont buy it. Not for one second.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

OMG, that's terrible. That "person" (hard to call them a person when what they're doing is so cruel) needs to be reported, ASAP. At the very least, tell your good breeder all about it so they can spread the word about what an awful breeder she is.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Gloworm said:


> She was very defensive about seeing the other cats, I tried really hard to go and see where they were.


The breeder I got my boys from was more than willing to show me all her cats (though her place was kinda messy... but not dirty by any means. She had 18+ cats and kittens in her house and I couldn't smell pee or poo). She also let me play with all her cats and handle any cat that would come to me. 


Gloworm said:


> Oh, another thing which jarred me was when she asked what kitten I had already. She said 'Why would anyone want one of those? They can't breathe.' About my Exotic. If you want me to buy your cat, don't slag off my kitten! He has been bred wonderfully and has no breathing problems! Grr.


Maybe the only reference she has is with other hacks like herself who just happen to breed exotics. The problem with most bracephalic animals is that if they aren't bred with care, their offspring can develop problems quite easily.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

paperbacknovel said:


> OMG, that's terrible. That "person" needs to be reported, ASAP. At the very least, tell your good breeder all about it so they can spread the word about what an awful breeder she is.


I second this.


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Oh my, that's so sad to hear. I've been following this thread for a while, wondering how it would all go. That definitely sounds like a backyard breeder to me, with more concern about turning a profit than caring for her animals. 

The other breeder sounds fantastic, and you're likely to get much more reassurance and support that you're getting a healthy kitten from them.

Try not to feel guilty about not "rescuing" this kitten from her. I say if someone's going to get a kitten with questionable medical history and genetics, then it's better to just rescue one desperately in need from a shelter. There's just no good reason to buy a kitten from a bad breeder. Like you say, I couldn't bring myself to give money to someone who is not treating their animals and breeding practice responsibly. It sounds like the other breeder is much more deserving of your patronage and money and will give you the healthy, well-cared-for kitten you want!


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

raecarrow said:


> What she said about neither of the parents being titled because you can't show breeding cats is a load of BULLCRAP. A good breeder will show a cat for a year or two and then retire them to breed them. They may also show them between litters. While injuries can occur, if the breeding is done in a careful and thoughtful way they are NOT the norm.


Also, yes to this. My grandmother breeds miniature dachshunds. She most definitely always shows her breeding dogs, and as far as I know has never had any mishap with them during showing. Other than the occasional random accident that can happen any time any where, there's no reason showing a cat or dog should be inherently dangerous. o_0

As that article stated, it's _important_ for breeders to show their breeding dogs/cats as this is how they're establishing connections with the community and a reputation for having healthy, quality lines.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

That's heartbreaking, but you made the right choice. atback


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm so sorry things didn't work out, although I rather suspected as much from your prior posts regarding her behavior. I agree with saitenyo...the lady sounds like a backyard breeder. The business about no title was a load of nonsense. It's likely her cats are not even purebreds. I also agree with paperbacknovel and raecarrow. I would speak to the other breeder as to whether anything can be done about this. The condition of the kitten (smell, etc.) and the likely fact that the kittens are being housed in cages with little socialization and potential overcrowding (given the number of breeds/cats she is breeding) all sound tantamount to abuse in my book. I feel so sorry for the little ones and for you, since I know you were hopeful this would work out. Good luck with the Exotic!


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

I'll be very surprised if she really does have someone coming at 6.30 and 8 to view her. I am definitely expecting an email saying shes miraculously still available.

Is that normal to arrange viewings of the same cat so close? What if I HAD took her? Would she just tell the other person, 'sorry?' Or probably bring out another kitten to sell...


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Here's a thought, I don't know if this applies to cats, I've only heard about it regarding dogs, but I know some states/cities require breeders (or people with more than a certain number of animals) be registered as a licensed breeder or kennel. Does that apply to cat breeding too?

If so, I wonder if she's even licensed to have that many cats on her property. It might be possible to report her.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I would definitely report her. And if the kittens aren't papered, how can she justify asking for anything more than a "rehoming" fee?


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

saitenyo said:


> Here's a thought, I don't know if this applies to cats, I've only heard about it regarding dogs, but I know some states/cities require breeders (or people with more than a certain number of animals) be registered as a licensed breeder or kennel. Does that apply to cat breeding too?
> 
> If so, I wonder if she's even licensed to have that many cats on her property. It might be possible to report her.


I am definitely going to look into it and talk to my nice breeder and see what he thinks. I cant even figure out the concept of 17 catteries!

She did say she does breed 3 breeds currently still. She even had an exotic kitten on her website yet was very rude about them to me? Urgh. Why did i even consider going to her!


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> She did say she does breed 3 breeds currently still. She even had an exotic kitten on her website yet was very rude about them to me? Urgh. Why did i even consider going to her!


It's okay, don't feel like it's your fault for not seeing this sooner. It's really not. You were had by a dishonest person, and that's her fault, not yours.

I sometimes browse siamese breeder websites for fun, and it's always occurred to me while doing this that the websites really don't say much! They may have a gorgeous website, but a terrible breeding practice, or a really shoddy website but be wonderful people with wonderful cats in a wonderful home.

You really can't tell sometimes until you meet the breeder and see their home in person. It's so easy to fake a nice setup via pictures on the internet.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

I cant stop thinking of that poor kitten, and I'm in tears. I'm not tough enough to see stuff like this. I am definitely going to be reporting, and I just hope she eventually gets a loving home  I know that eventually it will be for the good but right now its horrible 

Anyone want to go on a raiding party and release them all


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Gloworm said:


> I cant stop thinking of that poor kitten, and I'm in tears. I'm not tough enough to see stuff like this. I am definitely going to be reporting, and I just hope she eventually gets a loving home  I know that eventually it will be for the good but right now its horrible


I'll be sending helpful thoughts and prayers for this little girl that she finds the right home and that this horrible BYB is set to rights.

Can't do anything else from where I am in the US.


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm sorry you had to go through this. I wish I could report it too but seeing as I am in the US I don't think they would buy my report!!! If it were in my area I would march my butt up to animal control and let them know what is going on there!


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Sinatra-Butters said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through this. I wish I could report it too but seeing as I am in the US I don't think they would buy my report!!! If it were in my area I would march my butt up to animal control and let them know what is going on there!


I am definitely going to report them tomorrow, it was too late here. If theyre not open on weekends it will be reported Monday.

Do you find out the result of reports, and can they be made anonymously. id rather not have her know it was me...


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> I am definitely going to report them tomorrow, it was too late here. If theyre not open on weekends it will be reported Monday.
> 
> Do you find out the result of reports, and can they be made anonymously. id rather not have her know it was me...


 
Oh I meant that I would report them with you, not trying to imply that you weren't going to do it. I don't know if you can make it anonymously, but I don't see why they wouldn't let you.


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Sinatra-Butters said:


> Oh I meant that I would report them with you, not trying to imply that you weren't going to do it. I don't know if you can make it anonymously, but I don't see why they wouldn't let you.


If they need to know I dont mind. She doesnt know my address, only my phone and email, but it will definitely by done.

If anything did come of it and the cats were removed, I would run after that littleun in the van to adopt her, bless her.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> If they need to know I dont mind. She doesnt know my address, only my phone and email, but it will definitely by done.
> 
> If anything did come of it and the cats were removed, I would run after that littleun in the van to adopt her, bless her.


I wouldn't be too worried about her finding out it was you if anything comes of this... I would think you can do it anonymously, but I'm not sure. Either way, she might be able to figure out it was you considering you really wanted to see the other cats and that you didn't buy a kitten. I think a lot of people just walk in and out of a cattery without much time spent between, since they get their kitten and are pleased. Or they get them shipped to them since they want the breed and the breeder isn't located in their area. If she has your home number she can look up your address easily enough, either in the phone book or online.

I think it's really great that you're at least going to try to report them, just think of all the people that have bought kittens from her that likely haven't done just that! I seriously wonder if she's really been breeding cats for as long as she claims she has...


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## Gloworm (Nov 19, 2010)

Carmel said:


> I wouldn't be too worried about her finding out it was you if anything comes of this... I would think you can do it anonymously, but I'm not sure. Either way, she might be able to figure out it was you considering you really wanted to see the other cats and that you didn't buy a kitten. I think a lot of people just walk in and out of a cattery without much time spent between, since they get their kitten and are pleased. Or they get them shipped to them since they want the breed and the breeder isn't located in their area. If she has your home number she can look up your address easily enough, either in the phone book or online.
> 
> I think it's really great that you're at least going to try to report them, just think of all the people that have bought kittens from her that likely haven't done just that! I seriously wonder if she's really been breeding cats for as long as she claims she has...


She at least said she is cutting back due to ill health in the family...

And I am sure a lot of people do just do that, just pick a kitten and go. A friend of mine just got a kitten at 9 weeks, no vaccinations, from a supposed pedigree breeder (he wanted to charge her extra to get the vaccinations so she decided to get them done herself). The kittens a little terror, really unsocialised, plus the breeder charged her around £150 to put the kitten on the breeding register (something I am also trying to talk her out of...)

You really do get what you pay for.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Gloworm said:


> If they need to know I dont mind. She doesnt know my address, only my phone and email, but it will definitely by done.


The authorities might want your name, etc., but I see no reason why they would need to disclose your name to the lady. They're not going to just take your "say-so" in any event. They would need to determine for themselves what the conditions were, and if they were satisfied that a problem existed, then the breeder's problem would be with the authorities, not you. In any event, you can always ask animal control about the matter when you speak to them.


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