# Feline Hyperesthesia Syndrome, Epilepsy, or ????



## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I couldn't decide which category (Behavior or Health/Nutrition) to submit this post to, so, moderators, if you feel it should go in the other, feel free to move it.

The night of January 8th, 2015, as I was just getting ready to turn out the light to go to sleep, and everyone (all my critters) are finding their place in bed with me, I notice Chino, my 10.5 year old Siamese is losing his balance and looks like he's lost some weight. He also is extremely restless and is frantically kneading on me with his claws and purring. This kneading was so intense, no amount of pulling him off of me or telling him "no" was getting through to him, it was actually hurting. In fact, his behavior was so bizarre, I had to put him in my spare bedroom for the night so I could get some sleep.

Took Chino to the vet the next morning and they ran bloodwork on him. Said his white blood cell count was slightly elevated, but everything else looked great....really great for a cat his age. So, they put him on the IV in case of dehydration was causing the loss of balance, gave him Excede antibiotic (he had a little bit of mucus in one nostril, so perhaps a tiny upper respiratory infection, hence the elevated WBC). Sent him home with Phenobarbital.

I'll spare y'all of each vet visit because I'd say we've gone back 10 times since January 8th. The Phenobarbital dose was increased to 3x a day. Wow. That really knocked Chino on his behind, literally. He was so drunk, he couldn't function. Because of the dogs, I have to keep the cat food up high. Somehow Chino could still jump UP to eat, but jumping down was a disaster and he would land on his face. Poor cat couldn't walk straight, he was falling down all over the place, etc. You catch my drift. 

After some time, the vet diagnosed Chino with Feline Hyperesthesia Syndrome. However, I have read the symptoms, and I really don't see how he got to that diagnosis. Chino didn't hallucinate, didn't wrinkle his back, didn't lick or bite himself, didn't become aggressive, none of that. So, I am still kind of confused where that came from.

Prozac was also prescribed and I started giving him that. The first day he got it, he had a normal appetite. For days following, he stopped eating & drinking. Back to the vet we went and he got sub-q fluids. Came home, still wouldn't eat or drink. So, last Friday I took him in because he was really starting to get skinny and his eyes were sunken. He stayed at the vet from Friday afternoon until I picked him up yesterday morning. 

Each time he stays at the vet clinic, he does SO good. Eats, drinks, acts normal. Comes home, goes downhill. This last stay at the vet, he got IV fluids again and eventually started eating. The vet staff noticed he had urinated in his kennel, but not in the litter pan. Maybe didn't like the newspaper pellet litter they use, not sure. Day by day, he excelled. Ate well, drank good, well behaved, etc. 

Brought him home yesterday, all was good. He was a happy kitty. Keep in mind, he had been off the Phenobarb & Prozac since Thursday or Friday. I told them I didn't want him on the Phenobarb because of the way it makes him drunk, and I wanted him off the Prozac because I felt that it was directly related to his sudden stoppage of eating & drinking.

Yesterday, sitting in my lap at the computer desk, all is calm. All of a sudden, I notice he kind of jerks his head back as if something flew into his eyes, and he starts rapidly blinking like "eww, something is in my eyes". Did that a couple times, and turns around looking at his backside. I thought, hmm, maybe a seizure about to occur? He wants down off my lap. So, thinking this may be an impending seizure, I help him down. He walks off quickly as if something is following him (this is when I start thinking maybe it really IS Feline Hyperesthesia Syndrome) and meowing. 

He comes back a few mins later and he gets in my lap and he seems fine except for very very minor twitches. And he kept bobbing his head down to the right a couple times, that was weird. 20-30 mins goes by, he's fine, as if nothing has happened. So, I get up and decided I wanted to vacuum the floors. Took me all of 10 minutes. Come back to the living room, notice the ottoman that's on wheels is moving, I look on the other side of it, Chino is in FULL seizure. I flip the vac off as fast as I can, and rush to Chino's side. I hold his head so he doesn't whack it on the floor. I only see a few jerks before he stops, looks up at me and meows, and gets up and walks away. I have NO idea how long he had been seizing. It could have been the entire time I was vacuuming, or it could've been a few seconds before I found him...I'll never know. Got him on my bed, and he was pretty lethargic after that and he chilled for a bit. Called the vet and he told me to give Chino a Phenobarbital as soon as possible. Said that once cats seizure, they learn to continue to seizure. That was 4:45pm that I started Phenobarb back up. Vet said to give another at 10pm, and then another this morning. 

Amazingly enough, with the Phenobarb in his system, I was expecting a more drunk kitty, but he isn't really that bad. You can tell he is on it, he trips sometimes, but he can still jump up AND down without hurting himself. Best of all, he hasn't had a seizure that I can tell. He is still kind of needy, always wants to be in my lap. I've had to talk sternly to him "no" because I have schoolwork to do. We are having unseasonably warm temps today (70+), so I have the bedroom window open, and he is currently laying on the cat bed in front of the window, fast asleep. This surprises me because since all this has happened, all he's wanted to do is sit directly in front of the furnace vent.

I know this is a long story, but I wanted to share my experience. I see others who have had experiences with FHS, but still some of the symptoms are way different than that of Chino's.

I am looking for others who have had to give their cats Phenobarbital. How long did it take before your kitty stopped acting drunk? Did the seizures stop once you put them on it? Anyone else's kitty stop eating/drinking while taking Prozac?

Thanks for reading..... :mrgreen:


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## Marmoset (Feb 18, 2014)

I have only ever needed to give Phenobarbital to my dog for her seizure disorder so it might be a little different with cats but generally in dogs it increases appetite. The vet told us to expect weight gain and she did put on a few pounds. 

It did take her some time for her body to adjust to the meds but she did regain some of her pep and acted pretty much like a normal pomeranian. She still had seizures though the frequency dropped dramatically. She'd get them if we had a lot of people over or if there was a big storm. 

To me it does not sound like your cat has hyperesthesia but I'm not a vet. I'm only going on info I've read. There are some youtube videos that show cats with it though so maybe check them out and see if your cat is doing similar things. The head jerking and blinking you described sound's much more like seizing to me though.

Prozac- I've only had experience with one of our shelter cats who takes a chewable form of prozac. We saw no real marked difference in appetite. I think there was a day where he wasn't interested in food and he seemed to lose interest in the chews for a bit but he is a normal eater now. Still it could effect your cat differently.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

The initial incident sounds to me like a cat in pain. Some cats will knead and purr when their hurt because it releases chemicals that reduce the pain - that seems to fit to me, especially the fact that he wouldn't stop and he had lost weight.

None of it sounds like hyperesthesia. Not even a little. He clearly had a seizure though, so I'd keep on with that med.

I'd skip the prozak, since the vet seems to have prescribed it to make him calmer (since he's not aggressive, or having any sort of mood problem my inclination is not to give him something that is pretty serious like that.) and he's still, presumably underweight.

Step 1 would be switch his food to something he'll eat more of. I'd go with wet kitten food. Underweight cats need more nutrition, and kitten food will cover that. Wet food will ensure he gets enough moisture in him, and I'd add water to it. Aside from making it easier to eat it'll also double his water intake, since cats tend not to drink especially when ill IME.

Step 2....get a second opinion. I know you've probably long exhausted your vet fund, but it seems the current doc is out of ideas and just randomly prescribing things. Ideally I'd find a vet school, or a feline specialist.

Step 3, confinement. Sick kitties in my house get put into the 'sick room' (aka upstairs bathroom). Sick kitties need calm and quiet, in our multipet house the best way to do that (and monitor their individual eating and eliminating, which is crucial during an illness) is to keep them apart from the others. I make a point of going in every 2 hours when I'm home and spending time with the confined kitty, but they all like the calm and quiet and alone time when they're sick enough to need it. The room doesn't need to be large, we use our tiny bathroom because it's the only room we can use, but it doesn't need to have a ton of room either. They're in their because they're ill and it's safer - they don't need toys and a lot of fancy stuff. Basics. I use a kennel with a towel in it as a bed, have a special litter box we use for confined kitties, and offer plenty of water. Food in meals and always supervised. When they're not eating much you need to know exactly how much and what.

Ask if you can lower the pheno dose too...it's up to you, but I'd aim for a sweet spot of effectiveness without drugged behavior.


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

All I can say is wow! What an ordeal! I hope you are going to be a regular member of the forum, because this experience can certainly benefit others that go through these things. I know that cats are often prescribed the same meds as humans for disorders because our psyche's are so similar. Below is an excerpt from the Winn Feline Foundation - they are doing a study of bone marrow transplants. Not relavent to your cat's condition, but maybe might spark some other thoughts concerning dementia or senility in your cat. These can happen at any age. I'm not suggesting a bone marrow transplant just offering this as additional food for thought.

*"Cats have a high degree of linkage with human genome and possess a strong similarity with human nervous tissue antigens*. Therefore, investigation in feline bone marrow-derived MSCs may benefit novel therapies such as stem cell therapy for neurological disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease in humans or *ataxia or senility in cats*."


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Well, it's been a couple days since he's been home and back on the Phenobarbital. I have not witnessed any seizure activity, but once the Phenobarb was back in his system in regular intervals (2x a day, 5am & 5pm), he was back to his extra drunk self. And it seems that when this happens, he seems to "forget" to eat & drink. I called the vet and told him that his drunkenness was excessive, so instead of tapering him down to 1 whole pill once a day, he said to give Chino a 1/2 pill twice a day. He said that apparently because his body is not metabolizing the medication as fast as he should, the effects aren't wearing off as quickly. So, to keep a steady stream, but less amount of the medication in his system, we're trying the 1/2 pill 2x a day. 

Still, though, he literally refuses to eat when I put food in front of him. And we're talking prescription wet food (Science Diet k/d) which is what he had the entire time he stayed at the vet each time, so it's not like I'm switching his food all over the place. Yesterday, I cradled him in my arms and pried his mouth open and carefully spooned food into his mouth, forcing him to chew and swallow. (Please, no lecture on choking or aspirating dangers, I was very conscious of that risk and was VERY careful of what I was doing). He took a couple of spoons full, and it somewhat sparked him to lick the food out of the bowl. Since the food is 80% water, I felt somewhat relieved that he was getting SOME nourishment, but it was nowhere near what he should be taking in, especially water. 

I hear what you are saying about keeping him sequestered in another room, like a bathroom, but crazy as it sounds, I am afraid that he would be too cold anywhere other than where he's been hanging out, which is in front of the heater vent. It's certainly not my first choice of hangout locations for him, since the warm air is sapping him of every bit of water he's got, but I also can't bear to think of him being cold, even if I make him a fluffy bed in a crate.

My vet is closed on Sundays so I'm on my own today, so I'm gonna get the trusty dropper out and force him to drink SOMETHING. It always ends up in a squirmy, wet fight, but I have to do something for him. Last time he got admitted to the clinic, the vet mentioned something about a "bounding pulse", indicating blood pressure issues. So, because of that, I can't use chicken broth (not even low sodium broth) to entice Chino to eat because I don't want his blood pressure to skyrocket.
Thankfully, I have my vet's personal cell phone # in case of major issues, so I just texted him for suggestions, other than the dropper method.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Another good trick is to use something called Pedialyte instead of water - since chicken broth isn't an option. Pedialyte is like Gatorade for human babies, and it comes in a 'plain' flavor. You should be able to buy it at any drug store in the baby section. That way, even if he isn't getting much, it'll be doing him the most good possible.

You can also 'spike' water with tuna juice. Just a little won't do him any harm, and if it gets him to drink more then that's what I'd do.

You can try force feeding him a mix of the canned food and water. The best way is to use a food processor or blend to get it as smooth as possible, then you can use a larger sized syringe to syringe it in the side of his mouth. It's much easier than spoon feeding - trust me, I've done both.

Another good trick is to use hot tap water to heat his food up. A cats appetite is stimulated by scent, so the smellier his food is the more likely he is to eat it. I also use a platform to offer small plates of food when my guys are sick. If they're really feeling crappy I do everything I can to inspire their appetites and not having to lower their head to eat seems to help my guys - no matter what their illness.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for your boy, I hope you can get him to eat. usually that's the 'breaking point' and if you can get them eating again they tend to improve quickly. It's tough to get them to eat again though.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Librarychick, you and I are DEFINITELY on the same wavelength.

So, right after I posted my update, I texted my vet and asked for suggestions. He asked if Chino liked tuna and I told him I'd tried that a couple of hospitalizations ago and he wasn't really interested. He asked about milk, I told him Chino has never really been a fan, even when he was healthy. Somewhere there was a miscommunication because after I'd asked him if we could try the Cypro (Cyproheptadine), I happened to mention that Chino was still occasionally interested in the Science Diet Prescription k/d formula. Well, in the thread of texts, I told my vet I'd need a prescription, but I meant for the Cypro. He replied and said he'd called it in to Banfield/Petsmart because I couldn't get it at Walgreens. I thought that was weird, but I went with it, and drove CLEAR across town in 18 degree temps with gusting winds. I get to Banfield, the clerk says, "How many cans of k/d would you like?" What? No....I don't need k/d, I have a case of it at home. I'm here for Cypro! So I text the vet back and tell him I need a prescription for the medication called into Walgreens. So, I drive CLEAR across town AGAIN in the near blizzard conditions only to get there and the pharmacy hasn't even checked their voicemail. So, I sat there and waited for 45 minutes until it was filled. I also picked up a bottle of unflavored Pedialyte.
Got home a little bit ago and spent 15 minutes cutting pills in half (what fun!), gave Chino one. I also filled a syringe full of Pedialyte and I managed to get 90% of it IN him, not ON him. I also cracked open a new can of k/d and he actually ate a little bit, maybe 2 tablespoons worth...he licked at mostly broth, but got a few morsels of the meat as well. So, I'd say this is a good thing. I am praying that the Cypro activates his appetite SOON. He is SO skinny and just has NO energy. Oh, while I was out, I decided to stop by Petco (my preferred store over Petsmart) and bought Chino is very own heated pet bed. I had $10 in reward coupons, so I got it for $55. Oh, if only I knew how much I've spent on my kitty since the 8th. My guess it's now well over $1,000. But, I love him (and all my other furbabies, too) and I just want him to get better. I hate to see him this way.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Anyone have experience with Cyproheptadine?*

I posted a very long thread in the Behavior forum regarding my Chino who the vet diagnosed as having Feline Hyperesthesia Syndrome.

Well, long story short, being on the Phenobarbital has made him SO drunk that he "forgets" that he needs to eat. He's lost a LOT of weight since the onset of his symptoms January 8th, and he's had to be hospitalized twice for dehydration and malnourishment. 

Thing is, once he gets hospitalized and put on IV fluids, he perks right up and eats great. Then he gets home and declines again. He has access to fresh food & water at all times, even a heated bed, so the vet & I are puzzled why he does so good @ the clinic, but then so poorly at home. I'm over $1,000 invested in him so far.

Today, in an attempt to stimulate his appetite, the vet prescribed Cyproheptadine. I am supposed to give 1/2 a pill twice a day (so 4mg total per day). Just wondering if anyone else has given their cat (particularly their older cat, Chino is 10.5 years old) this medication and curious to know what your experiences were. For instance, did it work? If so, how long did it take for it to start working? How long did the cat have to stay on it? Did the cat suffer any side effects (other than weight gain) from it? I read that too much of a dose can result in drowsiness, which he DEFINITELY does NOT need considering he's already out of it on the Phenobarbital. 

Looking for personal experiences with Cyproheptadine. Thanks!


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

MowMow is 10 and I have a standing prescription for it. He doesn't need it every day but when his IBD flares up he stops eating.

I love the stuff. MowMow has never had any sort of side effect other than the ravenous appetite that I haven't seen in him since he was 5 or 6 years old. 

As I said, he doesn't get it every day. Just when his appetite fails. I give him two meals. If he skips one I watch him.... if he skips 2 then he gets a pill and I offer him the second meal along with part of the first to keep his calories up.

I usually only need to give him one to get ahead of nausea (as long as he's getting his pepcid) and he's on the mend ..until it happens again.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Is your dose the same? 2mg as needed? 
How soon do you think it'll be before he gets his appetite? The sooner he gets more food into his body, I think the better he'll be as far as the effects of the Phenobarbital wearing off. The vet keeps telling me that the Phenobarbital's side effects will eventually wear off as his body gets used to it, but it is SO hard for me to watch him be so drugged up. I just watched him walk INTO a wall a minute ago. 
I have to keep him on the Phenobarb to keep him from having any more seizures (he's had one that I've seen, and that is PLENTY, imho) but if he can get some food in him, then my hope is he won't be so drunk-like.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

it usually takes about 45 minutes after a dose of half a pill for Mow to come begging for food


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

That's amazing how fast it works for MowMow! I can't say the same for Chino yet, though. However, I was able to convince him to let me get another 10ml of Pedialyte down him through a syringe, and he did lick up some more k/d. So, perhaps some progress. *fingers crossed*


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## cat owner again (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't know if this is pertinent but my brother gives a dog subQ fluids daily due to kidney issues. Also I know the vet lowered the dosage. If that doesn't work, wonder if you could experiment with it a little lower but still twice a day? I know my dog was on a lot of meds and they prescribed too high and I managed it with slowly lowering it but I could cut the pills with a pill cutter. I don't dare give you medical advise but you could ask your vet.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I've been giving cypro to several of my kidney cats for years. It works very well for some cats, and not at all for others. A few words of warning about cypro:

It's best to start on a low dose and see how your cat does on that. I start my cats on 1/8-1/4 of a pill once daily. There are two reasons for this: 1) higher doses can cause paradoxical agitation and excessive vocalization in some cats, along with various other unpleasant side effects, and 2) the appetite stimulant effect can diminish if cypro is given long-term, eventually necessitating increases in dosing. The dose your vet prescribed is already twice what is recommended in Plumb's (the drug reference used by most veterinarians) for cats with renal insufficiency, so you certainly won't be able to safely increase that dose when it is no longer effective. I assume your cat has kidney disease, since you are feeding K/D.

From your description, and from my personal experience with kidney cats, it seems that the fluids your cat receives in the hospital are largely responsible for his improved appetite. It would serve both your cat and your pocketbook well if you have your vet teach you how to administer subQ fluids at home so that you can keep your cat properly hydrated and hopefully avoid the sort of crisis that keeps landing him in the hospital. I know that administering fluids at home can be a frightening and overwhelming prospect. I resisted doing it myself for a regrettably long time. Fact is, though, that after the initial learning period, it's really quite a simple procedure, and one that most cats tolerate very well. Indeed, many cats look forward to their fluid admins because they quickly learn how much better those fluids make them feel. A couple of my kidney cats have even sought me out if I'm late with their fluids. SubQ fluids are the cornerstone of feline kidney disease management. Without them, many cats suffer needlessly from the dehydration that is a common symptom of that disease.

There are a number of excellent tutorials and videos online to teach you the techniques and tricks of fluid admins, as well. I strongly urge you to learn this skill and utilize it to improve your cat's health and wellbeing.

Oh, btw, cypro can trigger appetite in as little as 15 mins in some cats. In others, it may take several days to see the appetite stimulant effect. It's always a good idea to have food ready for the cat within a few minutes of administering cypro, just in case.

Laurie


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

ina1032 said:


> I hear what you are saying about keeping him sequestered in another room, like a bathroom, but crazy as it sounds, I am afraid that he would be too cold anywhere other than where he's been hanging out, which is in front of the heater vent. It's certainly not my first choice of hangout locations for him, since the warm air is sapping him of every bit of water he's got, but I also can't bear to think of him being cold, even if I make him a fluffy bed in a crate.


I have had great success with the oral syringe method of feeding and he sounds like he is not opposed to that method of eating.

You can place the heated bed inside a box turned on it's side or inside a carrier. The carrier/box will help contain the heat from the heating pad. You can also add a make shift a hot water bottle for his sides. I've not tried it but I have heard that rice in an old sock heated in the microwave makes a good temporary heat source. 

I hope he fully recovers soon. I've had so many cats that have spent their last days going through similar things that all this brings back so many memories and breaks my heart for you.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

The Cyproheptadine either hasn't started to work yet, or doesn't work. Either way, Chino hasn't done much in the way of eating on his own so once again, I had to force feed him when I got home from work. My syringe holds 10ml (2tsp) of fluid, and I managed to get 30ml of Pedialyte in him, and a little bit of food (I'd guesstimate approximately a tablespoon's worth, maybe 1.5). He's still extremely drunk when he walks, won't open his eyes, and when he does, his 2nd eyelid covers most of his eyeball. I still haven't seen him use the litter box (or potty anywhere on the floor, although I have little dogs, so it's hard to say whose poo is whose).
I called the vet to see if I could taper him down to 1/2 Phenobarbital a day and both vets say it's not a good idea, that it's not meant to be a once a day medication, and that if I still tapered him down anyway, he would likely start seizuring again and we'd have to start the process all over again.
We discussed how many k/cals he should be consuming in a day. For his weight, and speaking in terms of the Science Diet k/d food he's been on, he should basically be eating a can and a half a day. Well, he isn't even eating the equivalent of a full can in three days, so clearly Chino is not getting what he should.
So, having said that, he is back at the vet having an IV put in and staff seeing if he will eat. It's so frustrating because after a day or so, he will start to eat for the vet staff. But once he comes home, he won't. I don't understand why.
*sigh*


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I am not a huge fan of needles, but if it comes down to it, I will learn how to give subQ fluids. However, after discussing with my vet that Chino is getting nowhere near the caloric intake that he needs due to his dehydration and lack of appetite, we felt it be best for me to bring him in for an IV overnight. 
Chino is actually in really great health for his age (10.5 years). He isn't a "kidney cat", the vet just suggested he be on the Science Diet k/d because it would be the easiest for his body to process while we attempt to figure out what is going on with him.
So far, after a couple of doses of the Cyproheptadine, I haven't seen much change in appetite. I am hoping once the fluids get in him and we get a regular dose of Cypro in him, maybe he will start getting hungry again.
I will check out the subQ videos in the meantime.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

ina1032 said:


> I am not a huge fan of needles, but if it comes down to it, I will learn how to give subQ fluids. However, after discussing with my vet that Chino is getting nowhere near the caloric intake that he needs due to his dehydration and lack of appetite, we felt it be best for me to bring him in for an IV overnight.


IV fluid admin is the treatment of choice for a seriously dehydrated animal, but the beneficial effects of IV fluids don't last long unless the animal continues to take in an adequate amount of water daily. In Chino's case, if he isn't drinking adequately at home, that means that you really MUST learn to admin subQ fluids at home to maintain his proper hydration. Otherwise, Chino will continue to suffer the effects of "drought or drown" when he becomes dehydrated and lands in the hospital for another day of IV fluids- completely avoidable with subQ fluids administered at home.



> Chino is actually in really great health for his age (10.5 years


Do you have copies of all of his lab reports that you could post here so that we can take a look? I can't tell you how many times a vet has told me that everything "looks good", only to see that everything is certainly NOT good once I got a look at the lab report myself. You should ALWAYS request and keep copies of ALL lab reports at home so that you can review them and reference them when researching your cat's medical issues or requesting guidance on a forum like this one.

From your description, Chino is not in good health for a cat of any age. There is clearly something very wrong, and I am perplexed by your vet's diagnosis of hyperesthesia and his jumping to phenobarbital as a first line treatment before your cat even demonstrated any seizure activity. Or maybe I am just misunderstanding the progression of your cat's symptoms relative to his diagnosis and treatment. It's all left me confused and wondering about the competency of your vet. If I was in your current situation, I'd be trying to get my cat to a university vet school clinic where he could be evaluated by veterinary specialists with a full array of diagnostic equipment at their fingertips.



> He isn't a "kidney cat", the vet just suggested he be on the Science Diet k/d because it would be the easiest for his body to process while we attempt to figure out what is going on with him.


There are several things wrong with this strategy. First, k/d is notoriously unappetizing to the vast majority of cats. I've never had a cat who would touch the stuff. Second, feeding a reduced protein diet to a cat who isn't in end-stage renal failure isn't likely to do anything but weaken the cat overall and cause muscle wasting and weight loss. Third, i/d is the prescription bland diet that is supposedly the easiest to digest, though I know nothing about its palatability. I've never used the stuff.

Personally, I'd be feeding a cat like Chino anything that he's willing to eat. There's no value in feeding any food that he won't eat.



> So far, after a couple of doses of the Cyproheptadine, I haven't seen much change in appetite.


As I mentioned before, Cypro doesn't work for all cats. If it still isn't helping to improve his diet after a week (assuming you start feeding him something he actually wants to eat), you might want to consider trying another appetite stimulant. 

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Talked to the vet this morning and in a nutshell, Chino is doing great. Said he had eaten 1 can of k/d since his admission yesterday and was eating another can today. He even sent me a video of him eating to my phone. The vet suggested perhaps trying the liquid form of Phenobarbital so we could lower the dose a little bit but not cut back to only once a day (risking seizure activity coming back). The problem with the Phenobarbital pills is that they are SO small. They are scored and are easy to cut down the middle, but once you try to cut them into 1/4 where they are not scored, they pretty much disintegrate into powder. So, with liquid form, I could ensure he was getting the exact same dose every time.
I did watch a video on how to give subQ fluids, but I'm a little overwhelmed by it. I'm not so sure he will be as calm and cooperative as the cat in the video. Hopefully it won't come down to that.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I wasn't comfortable with how little Chino was eating/drinking the last couple of days, so I took him to the vet to be put on IV fluids. I called this morning and they said that he put up a good fight when having the IV placed, but he was doing well, eating on his own. Said he had eaten a can of k/d yesterday and was working on a can today. The vet even shot a video of him eating while we were on the phone and sent it to me.
I watched a video on how to administer subQ fluids and like I said, I am a little skittish around needles, but also as I said, I will do it if it comes down to it...I'm just a little freaked out about it. I have concerns that Chino might not be as calm and cooperative as the cat in the video, and I don't have anyone that can come help hold him while I do the fluids.
I do not have a lab report in hand, but I know it would be no problem to obtain it if I asked for it. I have no concern that my vet is lying to me about his values, nor do I have any concern that he doesn't know what he is doing. He is very knowledgeable and is 1 of the specialists at our local zoo that has performed pre and post-natal care for our orangutans. Please note, though, I am not offended by you questioning my vet's qualifications, I am VERY appreciative of your concern actually...so I thank you.
The closest vet school is Kansas State University, which is over an hour away and I simply cannot afford that. I wish I could.
As far as the food is concerned, Chino really DOES like the k/d, as he scarfs it down while he is at the vet, and when he is doing well at home, he likes it. But once he starts to get dehydrated, he loses interest in ALL food. k/d, a/d, tuna, fancy feast, iams, all of it.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

ina1032 said:


> I watched a video on how to administer subQ fluids and like I said, I am a little skittish around needles, but also as I said, I will do it if it comes down to it...I'm just a little freaked out about it. I have concerns that Chino might not be as calm and cooperative as the cat in the video, and I don't have anyone that can come help hold him while I do the fluids.


I understand, believe me. I felt exactly the same way before I finally made myself learn to give fluids. It took a good long while for me to get comfortable with the procedure, but practice really does make perfect, and it really is no big deal once you get that practice under your belt. It's a matter of JUST DO IT. And I can assure you that there is NOTHING you can do for Chino that will make more of a difference to his overall comfort and health than to give him the fluids he needs to maintain proper hydration. It is a life-preserving and life-improving 5 mins out of your day. My sister recently learned how to give subQ fluids to her diabetic kidney cat, and every time she speaks to me now, she goes on and on about the phenomenal effect those daily fluid admins are having on her cat. You just won't believe the difference they could make to Chino until you start giving them to him.

As far as having to do the fluid admins by yourself, there are many tips, tricks, and techniques I can teach you to make it not only possible, but enjoyable for both you and Chino. Just let me know when you're ready. I give fluids to up to 4 cats a day here by myself - a happy little assembly line of hydrated geriatric felines napping on my couch.



> I do not have a lab report in hand, but I know it would be no problem to obtain it if I asked for it. I have no concern that my vet is lying to me about his values, nor do I have any concern that he doesn't know what he is doing. He is very knowledgeable and is 1 of the specialists at our local zoo that has performed pre and post-natal care for our orangutans.


I didn't mean to suggest that your vet is lying to you. But many, MANY vets who are not feline specialists overlook or undervalue the importance of one or two blood values that may be slightly outside their reference ranges. Sometimes what appear to be irrelevant and unconcerning minor anomalies in bloodwork can, indeed, indicate a developing problem that really should be either carefully monitored or further evaluated. 

Also, few vets have or take the time to review all previous lab work on any given patient at every appointment, so potentially important changes in bloodwork are often overlooked. This is where the vigilance of an owner who maintains their own copies of all lab reports can have critical value. If you have and review those reports before every vet appt, you will be able to point out any changes or trends in blood values that your vet would otherwise be likely to miss.

While it's fascinating that your vet is proficient in orangutan ob-gyn medicine, that says nothing about his knowledge of feline medicine. Those of us with companion animals often assume and expect our vets to know all things about all diseases in all animal species. But of course that is completely unrealistic. No vet carries that much knowledge in his or her brain. I would no more expect a zoo vet to know about housecat medicine than I would expect a podiatrist to evaluate my heart. 



> The closest vet school is Kansas State University, which is over an hour away and I simply cannot afford that. I wish I could.


Vet school clinics are often less expensive than private practice vets. There's also often the availability of telephone consults, though an in-person (or in-cat) exam would certainly provide more accurate information and potentially a firm diagnosis and effective treatment plan for Chino.



> As far as the food is concerned, Chino really DOES like the k/d


But it's still a food that is not providing his body with the protein it needs for maintenance and healing.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

"While it's fascinating that your vet is proficient in orangutan ob-gyn medicine, that says nothing about his knowledge of feline medicine. Those of us with companion animals often assume and expect our vets to know all things about all diseases in all animal species. But of course that is completely unrealistic. No vet carries that much knowledge in his or her brain. I would no more expect a zoo vet to know about housecat medicine than I would expect a podiatrist to evaluate my heart."

Haha, point well made. However, I wasn't implying that just because he was also one of the zoo's vets that he was an expert in all animals. I was just saying that he is well respected in the community and does good work.

I have not gotten, nor can I afford to get Chino's bloodwork done each time he's gone in, although being that we're going on almost a month of whatever's going on with him, it is probably necessary to do it just to see if anything has changed.

Please stay subscribed to this thread, Laurie. I greatly appreciate your advice and concern. You seem very well versed in the care of your kidney cats and I may be calling on your advice and tips regarding the subQ fluids, should it come to that. So, again I thank you for your help. :thumb


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

ina1032 said:


> Haha, point well made. However, I wasn't implying that just because he was also one of the zoo's vets that he was an expert in all animals. I was just saying that he is well respected in the community and does good work.


My mechanic is awesome. I mean he can rip apart my Ford and put it back together in the dark. He can listen to a noise in my Ford and tell me EXACTLY what it is and where it's coming from.

Does that mean I should recommend him to work on my Mom's Jaguar? NO! He isn't specialized in that car and while he knows a LOT about cars..... it needs a specialty mechanic to handle those delicate differences.

Same thing for a cat. 

Also, I second getting kitty of that K/D if he doesn't NEED it yet. IMO he'd thrive better eating a good quality grain free canned food with nice warm water mixed him to help keep him hydrated (especially if you don't want to start the SUBQ fluids yet).


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

> I have not gotten, nor can I afford to get Chino's bloodwork done each time he's gone in


Good lord! If I had bloodwork run every time I took an animal to the vet, I'd have gone broke decades ago ... not to mention having multiple animals die of severe anemia from all the blood loss!



> although being that we're going on almost a month of whatever's going on with him, it is probably necessary to do it just to see if anything has changed.


I really would urge you to take him to another vet (preferably the university) for a second opinion before repeating tests with the same vet. It's often helpful, esp. with an uncertain diagnosis and shifting symptoms, to have a second pair of eyes look at the problem and make an evaluation. 



> Please stay subscribed to this thread, Laurie.


I will.



> I may be calling on your advice and tips regarding the subQ fluids, should it come to that.


It's already come to that at least twice (you've had to take him to the hospital twice for fluids so far, right?). You just keep stumbling over your own apprehension about sticking a needle into Chino.  I expect you'll get over it after you've had to pay for a few more of those hospitalization overnights on IV fluids.

BTW, MowMow's suggestion to mix LOTS of warm water into Chino's canned food is an excellent one. Many cats love to lap up "canned food soup", and he may get enough extra fluid intake that way to at least delay his next IV visit to the vet.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok, both threads have been combined, so if you’re reading this thread for the first time and you’re confused about some of the redundancy, that’s why…I apologize. It is just easier to have 1 thread to update, rather than two.
I made some phone calls before it was time to call for an update on Chino. I looked on the internet for some feline specialists and found one close to where I live. However, there wasn’t an actual vet to speak to today because they were booked all day. However, they were nice enough to give me some #’s to specialists in Kansas City, which unfortunately is over an hour away, but I thought I’d call to get some advice. One in Overland Park offers free consultation, so that is an option if I decide to go that route. I called another vet in town and they spent a fair amount of time on the phone listening to Chino’s history and invited me to bring him in to be looked at if I wanted a 2nd opinion. They also suggested I call Kansas State University Vet School to see if they have some sort of program where they take on special cases for free or reduced fees. Unfortunately, they don’t. Just to lay eyes on the cat, it would be $125, and K-State is over an hour away in the opposite direction. So, I have that other vet available if need be.
I called my vet for an update on Chino, and they’re going to keep him. I asked for all of his medical records and I would pick them up. I drove there and got to talk to my vet more about Chino. Not only does he want him to stay tonight, but actually suggested he stay until about Friday. I got to see him and he was eating. In fact, he had no IV in him, and when I inquired, they said that when I brought him in last night and when he put up a fight putting the IV in, they didn’t want to risk blowing a vein, so they gave him subQ fluids. (That saved me from being charged for catheter insertion) He was still VERY drunk and turning circles in his cage, which is very hard for me to watch, but at least I know he is safe and can’t hurt himself. The reason for keeping him until Friday is because we have fluctuated his Phenobarbital so much, the vet believes he hasn’t had a chance to get used to the medication. He believes that his body will eventually get used to it and the side effects (drunkenness) will wear off.
I told my vet that I had sought support from a cat forum and had gotten some feedback regarding some of Chino’s treatment, and I voiced those concerns to him, particularly about the food. He reassured me that the k/d is a very good food for him to be eating right now, that it has all of the nutrients he needs. I am not implying what you guys are saying isn’t true or accurate, but right now I have no choice but to trust in my vet. If I get a second opinion, I will inquire about the food. But as for right now, Chino is eating and drinking on his own and that is what we need. Next, we just need him to chill in a safe place where he can receive continual care and “get over this hump” of the Phenobarbital stupor he’s in.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Your vet might be great, but if he's selling you the food too then he has a reason to keep you feeding that to your cat. Sorry, but it's the truth.

If he doesn't have an IV then you're literally just paying all your money for them to do subQ fluids and feed him....which you can do at home for WAY less than 1/2 the cost.

If it were my cat I'd bring him home, do the subQ myself, and switch to a grain free food.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok. I am starting to feel a little attacked on the decisions I am making for Chino. I didn't come here to feel this way. I came here looking for advice and support, not to be criticized. I am also a full-time employee of a very stressful job, a part-time college student studying for my Master's degree, and owner of 5 other pets, so please give me a break. Having Chino receive the care at the vet has given me a bit of a breather from this sudden stress so that I can try to catch up on the rest of everything that has been neglected. 
I'm doing the best I can, please respect that. Otherwise, I will delete the thread and my account and leave.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

No one here is TRYING to attack you. Advice is what they are trying to offer. I don't think anyone here is trying to tell you that you aren't doing enough for your cat. We are just trying to offer advice (from experience!!) on what we think would help your boy recover faster and better. 

The final decision of course is yours, he's your cat and these are you decisions.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Vet called with an update on Chino. After trying to see if Chino could handle 1/4 tablet of Phenobarbital, he had a seizure in his kennel around 11pm. And then another seizure every hour for about 6 hours. So, he's back on the 1/2 tablet dose and resting comfortably. He is still eating, which is good, but had to have an IV placed to keep him hydrated. So, the vet is certain now that Chino is epileptic and at least 1/2 tablet twice a day to keep the seizures controlled. He'll stay @ the vet for a few more days to see if he can come out of the fog of the Phenobarbital.
I am so sad and stressed.


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## cat owner again (Dec 14, 2012)

I am so sorry for this news. Maybe he will de-fog and be able to take his meds and be comfortable. I hope so.


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## zuma (Nov 5, 2009)

I just caught up in this thread and I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. 
I can't quite tell but has there been any diagnostics done? You said you can't run bloodwork every visit, and neither could I, but I assume they did it when this all started? As far as I know epilepsy is fairly rare to just show up at age 10, I believe it usually is diagnosed fairly young and if it's later in life there may be an underlying cause. The reason I bring this up is because my mom's cat used to have seizures and it turned out she was diabetic. Once the blood sugar was controlled so were the seizures. 
I would also urge you to seek a second opinion. It isn't too say that your vet isn't competent, but sometimes a fresh pair of eyes from a different person with different experiences and background can be very beneficial. In any case, if it was me, my priority would be to rule out any underlying issues that could cause seizures before settling on phenobarbital for life.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Has the vet considered a brain tumor as a possibility? Or maybe a neurological disease other than epilepsy? It could be epilepsy, of course, but it may also be something curable but as yet undiagnosed. Perhaps a telephone consult with a veterinary neurologist and/or oncologist may suggest other diagnostic possibilities.

The Animal Cancer Center at Colorado State University offers free telephone consults with their veterinary oncologists. If you google CSU, you can find a link to the Animal Cancer Center where you can find contact information to set up a free telephone consult, if you're interested.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I just asked the vet if he thought he was diabetic and he said no. He said that he is not exhibiting the signs of a diabetic cat (drinking a lot, urinating a lot, high blood sugar).
At this point, I do not want to take him out of his quiet, restful environment to get another opinion. We're in the middle of a snow storm and exposing him to more stress, I'm afraid will just stress him out more. He had a very bad night with multiple seizures and I just want him to rest.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Laurie, I asked my vet if there was a possibility of a brain abnormality and he said that statistically that is the case when they are this old. I simply cannot afford an MRI or CT scan. If he were younger, I might try, but there'd be no way I could afford any type of surgical procedure.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I understand. It looks like you've got a very difficult decision ahead. It's all going to come down to quality of life now. I'm very sorry that you and Chino are going through this.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I've been crying off and on since I talked to the vet because I know that if he doesn't come out of this fog, his quality of life will be greatly diminished. I can't bear to watch him go through this, and I'm afraid one unsupervised seizure might kill him. I can't even fathom coming home to find him dead. But, this isn't an easy decision for me.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I am comforted in knowing that my vet is accessible whenever I need him. We have been texting throughout this entire process and he sends me videos every now and again. Early on in this process, he even took Chino home with him to watch his behavior. He was even at the clinic when Chino started seizuring last night after 11pm and stayed up with him all night as he kept seizuring.


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

Ina,
(((HUGS))) and Prayers for you and him...
Sharon


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

It's not really the same thing at all but our Malamute was diagnosed with Epilepsy @ age 3 and it was awful when we heard the news. Her first seizure scared me so badly I spazzed out and called my husband home from work. It seemed like such a daunting and overwhelming thing to tackle. Luna was on Phenobarbital for the rest of her short life (She did NOT die because of the epilepsy). 

I remember the foggy look very well. She'd occasionally run into doors or walls or just...fall over for no reason at all. She would stare into space for ages until you called her name, then look surprised you were there. I HONESTLY don't think it diminished her quality of life, it just made her a bit goofy and she took it all in stride. She was just as happy and tail waggy and loveable as she ever was, just ...special. 

The seizures happened about once a month. We learned to have provisions with us always. Everywhere we took her we had a diaper bag with towels for cleaning up urine in case she lost her bladder (that rarely happened after the first few), paper towels for drool (there was a LOT of that), a bottle of water and bowl because she was always desperately thirsty afterwards, and a few treats to help perk her up. She always came out of them wagging her tail and smiling her silly lip smile at whomever was holding her. We'd help her up (all 130 some lbs of her) and she'd walk it off slowly. 

It seemed so horrible and daunting but really, she always handled her seizures like she was coming out of a long sleep and didn't know how she got where she was. She never seemed distressed or scared, they were just part of her life. 

The few times it happened in public some people were absolutely horrified, then they were always surprised when it was over and she was up, happy, and wagging at everyone.

I wouldn't make any hasty decisions out of fear or desperation. * Think it through and talk to your vet about long term effects and quality of life for your kitty. *


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh trust me, I have asked him on a couple different occasions about the decisions I am making. I've asked him if I am making him suffer, if I myself am suffering, if he will ever achieve any kind of normalcy, if this is manageable, etc. I've asked it all.
I have to consider his age, what may or may not be growing inside his brain, if he's in any pain, what level of consciousness he will have once his body gets used to the Phenobarbital.
I am more scared of a seizure happening while I am gone, rather than when I'm here. I'm prepared to baby him and accommodate him as needed, but won't allow him to suffer if all he's going to do for the remainder of his life is sleep and have me force feed him. I love him with everything I have, but at what point is this no longer fair to him?
I wish there were more definitive in this equation, but there are not. Right now, it's a waiting game. All I know is, I am NOT taking him out of that clinic until I know that these seizures can be controlled. If they cannot be, then I will deal with that if/when the time comes.


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## stephy (Aug 17, 2011)

Please join yahoo groups feline epilepsy. Very helpful. I have a seizure kitty. It took mine about 10 days to adjust to the meds. It was a bit longer for him to guage his jumps lol. But he soon was back to normal. give the pill at the same time every day, am and pm. Don't abrupty stop or miss a dose. Before they have a seizure they get clingy. The drunkenness will wear off, and generally the appetite comes back with a force. Having been there, the stay at the vets is good. Oh ya, keep a log book of when/hhow long they happen. It helps.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

This is good information Stephy, thank you. And I will check into the Yahoo group. Curious, what mg dose is your kitty on? 

I made my daily call to the vet today and he said that Chino has slept most of the day because of the increased dose since the mass seizure episodes from the other day. He has, however, awoken when he is hungry, eats a bit and goes right back to sleep. Doc did another panel of bloodwork and discussed the results with me. While I have not seen the numbers myself yet, he read all of the values and explained what the numbers were in comparing to the high end of normal. EVERYTHING was great. Blood sugar is 145. Sodium was good, calcium good, liver, kidney, bilirubin, everything was good....again, very good for his age. He is staying at the vet until we see how he tolerates the regular dose of Phenobarb, and seeing what minimal dose is effective at keeping his seizures at bay. 
I feel much better today than I did last night as I cried myself to sleep. Please keep my Chino in your prayers that he will eventually be able to come home and be a lazy bum with his fur-sublings.


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## stephy (Aug 17, 2011)

he will come home and be himself 

mine is 15mg twice a day. 4 weeks after starting this amount we went back to see if his medication is in therapeutic range. once its in his system this is used to see if an increase or decrease is needed.
he was right in the middle so no adjusting was needed. he also hasn't had a seizure since... it took about 3 days to see that change. he had partial focus seizure lasting 10-15 seconds... 7-8 times a day.
every 6-12 months check the liver and kidney function. 
there are other meds to try but this is your best starting point. again the yahoo groups site has TONS of useful information, I am on there too trying to help others as well.
any seizures today? my cat slept a lot too in the beginning. it will come  just take it a day at a time. any questions just ask!!


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## stephy (Aug 17, 2011)

Feline Seizure Disorders

read this area (*Classification – Clinical Signs of Seizures )*to familiarize with the stages of a seizure and types


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Daily Chino update: Vet says Chino is still eating well, and even though he is drinking, Doc says his skin feels tight like he's still a little dehydrated so he's giving him subQ fluids. He says that Chino is still extremely "drunk" with the Phenobarb, but as soon as they try to give him the fluids, his adrenaline kicks in and he makes it known that he doesn't like it, but goes right back to being drunk after the process is over. He's been on 8mg twice a day, so he's tapering it down to 7mg to see how he tolerates that. We want him to come out of this fog, but not too quickly, and definitely don't want to activate the seizures again.


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

Ina,
I hope Chino can stabilize soon...
More (((Hugs))) and Prayers...
Sharon


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Not much of an update on Chino. He is still at the vet. Still very slow to come out of the "Pheno-fog". Yesterday, his dose was lowered to 5mg/2x a day and no sign of seizure activity. He has already proven he cannot be on a 4mg dose because he starts to seizure, so hopefully 5mg will continue to keep the seizures at bay and help him come out of the fog. He still requires the occasional fluid interventions, so that may be something he will continue to need once he comes home. There isn't yet a set date when he might be able to come home. Don't want to rush him and I certainly don't want to stress him out when he does come home, so we want to make sure he's good and ready.


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## zuma (Nov 5, 2009)

Poor Chino, hope the lower dose is high enough to prevent seizures but let's him come out of his fog. Is he still eating in his own? 
Hope he feels better soon and can come home.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes, he is, thankfully. Yesterday, though, the vet was concerned that he didn't wake up for his breakfast, nor did it appear that he ate anything overnight. So, they woke him up and gave him some fluids subQ and he perked up and ate well. The vet thinks that since he's still in his Pheno-fog, he simply sleeps so deeply that he forgets to wake up to eat (unlike his brother at home, Mocha, who seems to enjoy waking me up 15 minutes before the alarm clock reminding me that he is hungry and wants his wet food NOW!).
This is why I think Chino will need to have subQ fluids on a semi-regular to regular basis, or at least until he is fully adjusted to this medication (if he ever does). As long as he's hydrated, he eats well and actually interacts with the happenings of the back room of the clinic. If he isn't drinking, he tends to just sleep his day away.


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

My vet told me yesterday he thought Chino might be ready to come home today, so I should go over after work to see what I thought. I got there and boy is he skinny (although my vet says he's at a healthy weight actually, because Chino was a bit "chunky" when he first came in). He looked kind of dopey, but he was happy to get out of his cage and when he realized it was me, his purrer was in full swing and he was head butting me and meowing. After loving on him for a bit, I set him down to see how he was walking. He immediately started turning circles. The only explanation anyone could give is that he's still a bit foggy from the Phenobarbital. Other than the circling, he walked straight, he wobbled a couple times but I think it was from being dizzy from turning tight circles. He was very coherent and receptive to my calling his name. Very happy to see me, but not too interested in me holding him. He had a lot of energy. The vet says that he is usually a bit more "with it" after he's had fluids, so they were going to give him fluids today, and thought he might continue to need fluid therapy for awhile, even if just every other day or 2 days. I decided that even though I miss him dearly and can't wait for him to be home, I was too scared to bring him home just yet as the excitement of the house (3 yappy Pomeranians) might send him into a seizure. I also wanted him to be out of his fog just a little bit more, so I would feel a bit more comfortable with him being in the house while I'm gone to work.
So, it did break my heart to put him back in his kennel. He didn't like it, he immediately started pacing and turning circles, making quite a racket for the convalescing dogs that were in adjacent kennels.
So, we're gonna try a few more days (thank goodness it's cheap, I'm only paying for boarding) and see how he is doing then.
I miss my baby, and I can't wait for him to come home. I know there's a long road ahead, and I have to stay focused on keeping up with his medication (and keeping the house calm, yeah right) so that he doesn't have to go back.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I have a few observations and suggestions which you may or may not appreciate. First, unless I misunderstood what you wrote earlier in this thread, your vet believes that a brain tumor is a likely cause of your boy's seizures (circling, btw, is a common symptom of brain tumor). If that's the case, every day he spends at the vet's is another day lost with your precious boy, in a scenario where he may not have a lot of days left to share with you. I don't want you to regret giving up these days.

Second, you can always buy a large crate in which to put him at home when you're out of the house if you don't feel it's safe for him to be on his own in the house unsupervised. At least that way he'd be in his own home with you, surrounded by familiar faces, smells, and activities; out of the more stressful clinic environment. 

Third, you will find that your relationship with Chino will deepen even further as you manage his daily medical care, including learning to administer subQ fluids at home. That extra commitment to his medical care will connect the two of you even closer, which is the upside to all of this. Don't underestimate its value.

I hope you will overcome your fear and let Chino come home. It's where he wants to be, and you WILL be able to handle it.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

I really did not want to, but I brought Chino home today. And so far, it's been a mess. I let Chino roam around for awhile (supervised), he did a LOT of walking in circles and aimless wandering. He ended up going down the stairs before I could get to him. He didn't fall, but he didn't have a whole lot of control. I let him wander around down there for awhile and get reacquainted where the litter box was but he had no concern. He must've walked around for a good 15 minutes. He doesn't stop to sniff anything, he just walks at a steady pace. I kept calling for him to come upstairs. He would hear my voice and look up the stairs, but I honestly don't think he could figure out that he needed to go up the stairs to get to me. Finally, I decided that the basement wasn't where I wanted him to be for awhile, so I brought him back up and started to prepare him a room to live in for awhile with a litter pan. 
First I tried the spare bedroom/office. Again, a lot of circling, a few licks of food, but nothing notable. So, I kept thinking about what the vet told me about keeping him focused and maybe putting him in a smaller area, so I tried the bathroom. I got him all set up in there, heated bed, litter pan, food/water dish. There isn't much room in there for him to pace, so I thought he'd chill out.
I needed to run an errand, so I was gone for about an hour. Come back and found Chino had pooped on the bath rug, peed on his heated bed (thank God the cover is waterproof and washable), there was litter scattered everywhere, and it appeared he'd probably tripped over the water dish a time or two. So, clearly, this wasn't going to work, I have to be able to use this bathroom as well.
Chino's brother Mocha just knocked down the temporary pen I had set up. Thankfully I just found a friend who has an actual pen I can borrow. 
How am I going to get this circling toned down? I am guessing not much. I cannot afford an MRI or CT scan to check for brain tumor. I have already spent sooooo much money on Chino.


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## spirite (Jul 31, 2012)

I don't have any suggestions for you ina - just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and Chino. I can only imagine how hard it must be to see him like this. Sending hugs to you both.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I am so sorry for what Chino and you are going through. My best guess is that the circling is a symptom of brain tumor, which, of course, will worsen without (and possibly even with) treatment. Have you considered requesting a free telephone consult with one of the veterinary oncologists at Colorado State University? That would at least give you an opportunity to discuss Chino's history and symptoms and get some specialized feedback on the likelihood of a brain tumor. 

You are in a very difficult position without a definitive diagnosis and prognosis. It's all guesswork at this point. From your description, there is so little of the Chino you know in the cat you brought home from the vet, that his quality of life must be considered. Even if the pheno fog does eventually lift at some point, it seems that your vet isn't associating the circling behavior with the pheno. So there must be an underlying cause for the circling. Tumor? Brain damage from the seizures? Something else? Pheno aside, is the vet offering any substantial hope that the circling will cease? If it doesn't, what sort of life does that leave for Chino or for you?

Three or four decades ago, my sister had a dog who started circling in one direction. Although at that time the vets didn't do anything to evaluate her brain, they did determine that she had serious cardiac issues. It's possible that she had both cardiac and brain issues, but the only confirmed problem was in her heart. So perhaps Chino is having some sort of cardiac problem.

In any event, you need to decide how much farther you can go diagnostically, and if you can go no further, you need to decide how much longer you will wait to see if Chino's condition can improve on pheno. It's horrible having to make life and death decisions without definitive answers, I know, but sometimes it just has to be done.

I wish you and Chino the best possible outcome.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Is this the place you're talking about?

Colorado State University Flint Animal Cancer Center - Fort Collins, Colorado - Make an Appointment

If so, I read that they charge $130 for consult. Am I reading in the wrong place?


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

That's the place, but that $130 charge is for a physical appointment and exam. Telephone consults are free, though they are appreciative of donations. You can set up a free telephone consult through this link:

Colorado State University Flint Animal Cancer Center - Fort Collins, Colorado - Consult Service


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok, submitted.


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## stephy (Aug 17, 2011)

Has your vet done a thorough ear exam... middle ear infection?
could a x ray detect something?


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Severe ear infection - there's a thought. That could certainly do a number on his equilibrium, though I don't know if it would cause circling.

Laurie


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Came home from work to find Chino laying down, but not looking well. It didn't appear that he'd used the litter box but his fur was all messed up, like possibly dried urine. He stood up to walk around and he couldn't keep his balance and kept falling down. When I picked him up, he could hardly hold his head up. Judging by the way he looked and was acting, I made the decision to put him to rest. I sat with him awhile and just cried my eyes out. After I put him in the carrier, he kept acting like he was in a partial seizure, pawing at the crate. I bawled at the vet's office, but couldn't bear to be with Chino when he passed. Doc was very sensitive to my emotions and asked if I wanted his ashes. He also asked my permission to perform an autopsy to check for brain tumors. I told him that would be alright and to let me know the results.
I am heartbroken, but I know, for him, I made the right decision. I just hope he hasn't been in pain this whole time. I just couldn't see how he would get any better. His weight loss was tremendous and since he was losing control of his faculties, I couldn't realistically see him recovering.

Please, I am requesting no more comments or opinions on my vet or Chino's treatment. The decisions that were made were ultimately my own, and any negative remarks would be just plain cold-hearted and unnecessary.


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## cat owner again (Dec 14, 2012)

Ina, I am so sorry. I feel you made the right decision and you could feel it in your heart. Chino is now at rest with no pain or disorientation. He is at peace. Try to find some peace in your heart for yourself.


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

Ina,
I'm so sorry :'(
I think you made the right decision in this case...I know we all end up second guessing ourselves...and can't help but wonder...what if?...
I've been there...
On one of my kitties that had cancer, I gave my vet permission to do a necropsy, but they knew I wanted to bury her at home, the vet had taken care to sew up any incisions, he had opened...I figured if PussPuss' s necropsy could help someone else's kitty in the future, even she'd want that...
It's just heartbreaking when there's nothing you can do...
(((HUGS)))
Sharon


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## zuma (Nov 5, 2009)

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's so, so hard to say goodbye but I strongly believe it our responsibility to make that call when it's time and release them from suffering.


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## Marmoset (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm so so sorry for your loss. It's a hard decision to make but it is the most loving thing we can do sometimes. I know Chino will never be forgotten. I've lost a few myself and they are still with me in my dreams and in my heart.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I am so very sorry for your loss. I believe you did the best you could for Chino, and I feel your decision to put him to rest was the right one. His body could no longer support his spirit, so it was time to set him free.

I wish you a peaceful grief,

Laurie


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## spirite (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear this ina.  No one would question your decisions; no one has the right. You knew Chino better than anyone, and he was letting you know that it was time. So many of us understand what you are going through, unfortunately - I lost one of my kitties to an unknown cause in December. Sending you hugs and sympathies.


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## Smaughunter (Feb 14, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear about your kitty. It sounds like he was really suffering and you made the right decision. Hugs*


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## ina1032 (Jan 28, 2015)

Spoke with my vet after work. Results from doing an examination of Chino's brain revealed a tumor the size of a small marble pressing against the cerebellum (the area that affects vision and balance) and a lesion from what appeared to be an old infection. He believes that it would have been inoperable, but it is unknown how long it had been there or how fast it had been growing.
Now, I have an appointment to have Latte' looked at for his chronic coughing. I am praying it's just asthma or something minor that can be fixed or controlled, as opposed to a tumor. I can't handle another loss in such a short span of time.


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## Arianwen (Jun 3, 2012)

Please accept my deepest sympathy.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I am glad that you got some answers about Chino. Sadly, not everything is fixable, and ultimately you did the best possible thing for him.

Chronic coughing sounds like a persistent URI to me. Hopefully the right antibiotic will clear it up.

Take care and my best to you and Latte.

Laurie


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