# interesting article



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Interesting article on cat keeping in the UK verses US. 

http://messybeast.com/catsusuk.htm

Different folks, different strokes


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## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

Many pounds are "legally obliged" to sell cats to research laboratories???? Really??????????


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

October said:


> Many pounds are "legally obliged" to sell cats to research laboratories???? Really??????????


I do hope not 8O


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

What's this about a "legal obligation" to sell cats to research laboratories? It seems to me that would apply more to animal shelters operated by municipalities, and not to privately funded shelters. If this region is any kind of example the private sector shelters outnumber the municipal ones by at least 4 or 5 to 1. I know for certain the 2 privately run shelters closest to me don't sell any cats or dogs to research labs. 
In fact one of the co-owners of Happy Paws Haven told me he could greatly increase his funding that way, but didn't because he felt he'd be "selling his soul to the devil".


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

I've read this article before but despite the claim " It is intended as a comparison of cat-keeping habits and not to promote nor condemn either method," I've always seen it as being strongly baised against American pet owners.

So I'd take anything it says about cat keeping in America with a big helping of salt (especially if it makes Americans sound bad). For example, people certainly don't routinely dress their cats up in America (except for the sake of the occasional photo on stuffonmycat.com) no matter what that article claims.

Sorry, melysion, this isn't directed at you personally.  It's just that in the past I've been in several Internet arguments with people over how horrible we American pet-owners are compared to British pet owners (of which the other poster was one, of course), and this article ALWAYS comes up sooner or later as part of the argument for how much better British cat owners are. So it sort of touchesa nerve.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Bethany said:


> Sorry, melysion, this isn't directed at you personally. It's just that in the past I've been in several Internet arguments with people over how horrible we American pet-owners compared to British pet owners (of which the other poster was one, of course), and my experience has been that article is a great favorite of people wanting to make that sort of argument. So it sort of touchesa nerve.


You have nothing to apologise for. I posted it merely as an interesting article . I would never say that UK cat owners are 'better' than US cat owners or vice versa. That would be very wrong.

On a personal note: I love this forum and have gotten very fond of the people here but if there is one sore point its this: I get very tired of people being accused of being irresponsible cat owners because they allow their cat out unsupervised. I happen to utterly disagree with the notion of indoor only cats (apart from when its absolutely necessary - Toby being the obvious example). However, I very rarely say anything simply because most posters here are American and I understand its just how Americans view cat ownership. I respect the fact that most of you think in terms of indoor only even if I 100% disagree with it. Its just the way it is culture wise over there.

I just wish I would be afforded the same respect. I doubt it though. No one could accuse me of being a bad Mummy to Toby. But if he wasn't FIV and let him out unsupervised - would you accuse me of being so then? Even if everything else remained the same?

OK - soap box over 

The article is interesting though if admittedly a little biased.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Well, I think the big difference on letting cats run free is the housing setup. I've never lived in a place where it would be safe to let a cat out. They'd either be run over because I live on a street or eaten by coyotes. If anyone lives in a place where it would be safe, I think it would be great.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

marie73 said:


> Well, I think the big difference on letting cats run free is the housing setup. I've never lived in a place where it would be safe to let a cat out. They'd either be run over because I live on a street or eaten by coyotes. If anyone lives in a place where it would be safe, I think it would be great.


Thats a very good point. Also I think - although not 100% sure - cats in the US face more danger in terms of other wildlife than UK cats. We have foxes here (and the odd nasty dog) but I think thats about it (unless I'm being rather naive). 

My mothers cats have nearly all been indoor/outdoor. She lives in the countryside and I'm sure they have all had a great time in the big outdoors. And most of them have reached old bones so the 'fact' that outdoor cats die young is I think a fallacy.

We have a very busy road here and that would cause me concern for sure. But we have a ton of cats living on my street and only two of them (one being Toby) are indoor cats.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I have to admit that even if I lived in a "safe" place, I'd never let my cats out because I'd just want to die if they didn't come back. But it's a very personal decision, not something you should be judged on (unless you have a cat that hasn't been fixed).


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

If it makes you feel any better, I've been accused by British cat owners of being a cruel, inhumane cat owner for not allowing my cats free access to the outdoors. (Not on this forum, obviously). So I think it's just a matter of whether British or American cat owners dominate the discussion far as who gets blased is concerned.

Since I do let my cats out occasionally (although only when supervised) I guess both sides hate me (one for letting the cats out at all, the other for not letting them wander at will). 

I definitely wish that this was a topic on which people would live and let live.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

marie73 said:


> I have to admit that even if I lived in a "safe" place, I'd never let my cats out because I'd just want to die if they didn't come back. But it's a very personal decision, not something you should be judged on (unless you have a cat that hasn't been fixed).


I think it should be very much a personal issue and others should respect it whichever it is and not judge one way or another. I would never accuse someone of being cruel because they don't let their cat out unsupervised because its obviously not true! They are doing what they believe is best for their cat. The same should be considered for vice versa and no-one should be told to 'let their cats out' or 'keep them in'. Its wrong.

Of course if your un-neutered Tom is allowed out to sow his wild oats thats a different thing entirely. THATS irresponsible cat ownership alright :evil:


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Bethany said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I've been accused by British cat owners of being a cruel, inhumane cat owner for not allowing my cats free access to the outdoors. (Not on this forum, obviously). So I think it's just a matter of whether British or American cat owners dominate the discussion far as who gets blased is concerned.


I apologise on behalf of any British idiot who has made you feel uncomfortable in that way. Grr.

I do wish people could see its just a cultural issue.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

melysion said:


> Bethany said:
> 
> 
> > If it makes you feel any better, I've been accused by British cat owners of being a cruel, inhumane cat owner for not allowing my cats free access to the outdoors. (Not on this forum, obviously). So I think it's just a matter of whether British or American cat owners dominate the discussion far as who gets blased is concerned.
> ...


Nah, the one person who was really giving me grief over it was (in my opinion) not a very nice person in general.

But yes, I agree. It's largely a cultural issue and expecting everyone in the world to have to same attitudes you do is never a way to get ahead with a discussion.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

melysion said:


> marie73 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I think the big difference on letting cats run free is the housing setup. I've never lived in a place where it would be safe to let a cat out. They'd either be run over because I live on a street or eaten by coyotes. If anyone lives in a place where it would be safe, I think it would be great.
> ...


The issue of outdoor fatalities in the US is not bunk. There was a study done by the HSUSA of the survival rate of outdoor cats vs life expectancy of indoor in the US. HSUSA is very well respected in US. One reason I like Cat forum is because accusing and meanness is not allow. It accomplishes nothing. I do think people have a right to present their point of view in a nice way. Im sorry if you took people didn't approve of your stand on this. I can truly say the active members on this forum understand the difference in policy between our two countries. There was a thread before you were a member that it was discussed. It was very enlightening. It is quiet obvious how devoted you are to your guy. And we've fallen in love with him also. You are an excellent cat mom!  

Marie73 is very accurate on the dangers in the US for cats. I know where I live its coyotes, packs of dogs, cars and busy highways & the climate are a major danger to feral and outdoor cats here. 

That being said one of my close friends has 4 indoor only cats. She inherited, with the purchase of her house, an outdoor only cat. She has a huge beautiful walled yard. She feeds the outdoor only cat innova twice a day with innova dry for snacks! She vets him and gives him love and much attention. There is no way to bring this cat in with her cats. So this is the best of both worlds. Which goes to show there is no hard and fast rules. It should always be what is best for the animal.


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

I agree that there is a big difference between wildlife presence here in the US and at home in France. At home you would have to be deep in the countryside to see a fox or a boar. Here, inside Los Angeles, which is the least green and wildlife-friendly city I have ever seen besides Paris, there are coyotes attacking house cats 8O 

If I lived in the countryside at home, on fenced land, I would let my cats come and go in and out as they want, but here I would make sure the garden is fenced with special cat proof fences. In France, the danger is not wildlife, rather the odd mean dog left to roam around, and above all HUNTERS, who love to shoot at cats when they can't get the birds they want... and cars in urban areas of course.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Mitts & Tess said:


> I do think people have a right to present their point of view in a nice way. Im sorry if you took people didn't approve of your stand on this. I can truly say the active members on this forum understand the difference in policy between our two countries. There was a thread before you were a member that it was discussed. It was very enlightening. It is quiet obvious how devoted you are to your guy. And we've fallen in love with him also. You are an excellent cat mom!


Differing points of view are absolutely fine -but I was once pretty much accused of being a irresponsible cat owner on here ... oh... a little while ago now.

Anyway. Oh ... just remembered something. I think it was you that asked me about whether the vet bills etc were in my name just in case my flatmate kicked up a fuss about me taking Toby. The answer is yes - Toby is registered in my name (and only my name seeing as its only me thats taken him to the vet :roll and all his food brought online is in my name too. But I'm not too worried. In fact not at all. Toby isn't 'normal' enough for my flatmate. His idea of a cat is a slim, slick, athletic indoor/outdoor cat. Which ... errr ... doesn't quite describe my rather unfit, plump strictly indoor guy .


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Nini said:


> and above all HUNTERS, who love to shoot at cats when they can't get the birds they want..


 8O 8O . Thats horrible! :evil:

How can people do that???


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

melysion said:


> Nini said:
> 
> 
> > and above all HUNTERS, who love to shoot at cats when they can't get the birds they want..
> ...


Well, most hunters at home are middle-aged country bumpkins who get together and get drunk, and then proceed to walk around the countryside shooting at everything that moves. Cruelty towards cats seem such a common thing, it really creeps me out - but in their case, dogs (or even hunting buddies) killed by "stray" bullets are not rare at all either... It was an epic fight for the government to force them not to hunt on Wednesdays so people can walk around with their kids without risking their lives.

Stupid hunting lobby has a lot of weight with French government - makes me ashamed of my country :evil:


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Nini said:


> ...but in their case, dogs (or even hunting buddies) killed by "stray" bullets are not rare at all either...


I believe I'll plan a trip to France for my boss. Merry Christmas!


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

marie73 said:


> I believe I'll plan a trip to France for my boss. Merry Christmas!


 :lol: :lol:


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

melysion said:


> marie73 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe I'll plan a trip to France for my boss. Merry Christmas!
> ...


Just make sure to explain that it is customary in France to walk in the woods with fake dear antlers on your head around Christmas time... and the local population would be very offended if he did not comply with the tradition :lol:


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Ooops, we seem to have totally stolen this thread. 8O


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## carolsclan (Jun 28, 2006)

I also find the cultural differences interesting .... here in SA we also dont routinely keep cats inside .. although it certainly isnt safe here .. not generally .. we are on a farm so its relatively safe.

I think our climate has a lot to do with it ... airconditioners can only be used by the very wealthy ..and our summers are murder ..imagine keeping a house closed up with temps of 110 and the high humidity we have ??????????? with no aircon .. eeeek 

Another huge advantage I have is that all the staff on the estate know I have cats .. and they all keep an eye out for them ....


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## Frostine (Jun 4, 2007)

Under ideal circumstances I would love to let my girls outside, but all of my indoor/outdoor cats have met untimely deaths. Growing up my parents felt very strongly about cats being able to go out - we had a cat door, and they came and went as they pleased except at night, when they were in. Josie was hit by a car at under two years old, Spice was killed by a neighbors dog at age two, Jude was run over by my dad at age five, Sugar was found dead after a storm at age seven (she also had skin cancer from being a white cat out in the sun), and Miss Grey just dissapeared at around a year old.

Pookie was my first cat as an adult and she has never been out. She is twelve. As much as I think they would enjoy the outdoors, I would never risk it after all of those childhood experiences. I understand the cultural differences, and I would never think someone was a bad owner for letting their cat out, I just can't do it. 

But getting back to the article, I have never put clothes on a cat and I've only ever bathed a cat once...


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Actually, when I was reading Allie talking about windows and keeping Toby this summer, in I was wondering if differences in climate control might have something to do with the US/UK difference, too. The US is in general a lot warmer in the summer than the UK, and I get the impression we have a lot more summertime biting insects as well. So in the US most people who can afford it have AC (window units if not central air) and nearly everyone has window screens -- which I gather is not necessarily true in the UK. No AC and no screens would make it hard to keep a kitty inside.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Well, despite the authors statement that the article isn't biased, I think it most certainly is. The sections on dressing cats and breeding are nearly mocking and the final statement about cats being indoors scratching the furniture in frustration is obviously stating an opinion. But it doesn't really matter, the author is entitled to their opinion...

Regarding the indoor/outdoor debate....the predator situation in the US is definitely more significant than in the UK. I was given some statistics a few years ago that cats that go outside unsupervised in NH live an average of 3-4 years. Between cars and wildlife predators outdoor cats have a rough time of it here. Even if the yard is fenced, birds of prey can be an issue. I know there's no way I could let my cats out under those circumstances. If someone chooses to let their cats out, hopefully they do it knowing the risks and accept them. 

But there's a second aspect of letting cats roam loose that I have a real problem with...and that's when the neighbor's cat becomes a nuisance. We've seen it here many times...Nini has a cat peeing on her door, October had a cat trying to get in her house, I had my neighbor's cat cause an episode of redirected aggression with my cats that cost me $500 in vet bills. I was also woken up multiple times in the middle of the night by Maggie yowling because this cat was looking in my windows and he was using my mulch beds as a litter box. Maybe these things don't happen in the UK because all the cats go out and know each other so they're either not as territorial or respect territorial boundaries better. Fortunately my neighbor was willing to keep her cat in, although I had to talk to her about it twice. If she hadn't, her cat was going to disappear...I was going to trap it and take it to the shelter saying it was a stray. So when making the decision to allow a cat to roam, it not only affects you and your cat, it also effects the neighbors.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

doodlebug said:


> Well, despite the authors statement that the article isn't biased, I think it most certainly is. The sections on dressing cats and breeding are nearly mocking and the final statement about cats being indoors scratching the furniture in frustration is obviously stating an opinion. But it doesn't really matter, the author is entitled to their opinion...


Well, it's true that the author is entitled to their opinion. However, I have a problem with people who state their opinion and then claim that their statement of opinion is unbiased fact. Particularly when that, in turn, leads to people in arguments claiming they know all about what cat keeping in the US is like because they read about it in an unbiased article... and how do they know the article is unbiased? Because it said so!

There are a lot of genuinely good reasons for keeping a cat indoors, a number of which are probably bigger factors in the US than the UK. (Besides there being more wild predators in the US than the UK, I've read some speculations that, bad as outdoor cats are for the songbird populations in the UK, it's still better than in the US because there is at least a small wildcat native to the UK.)

At the same time, add me to the list of people who disbelieve the whole "if you let your cat outdoors it will only live for 3 years but if you keep it inside it will live for 20" thing. It is probably true that, taken as a group, indoor-only cats live longer than outdoor cats. However, that group of outdoor cats presumably includes huge numbers of cats that are next-best-thing to strays, whose "owners" plop down food on the back porch and nothing else, some which aren't even fixed. In the US, by and large, people who keep indoor-only cats are people who are more interested in good cat care than the average bear -- it's not surprising that their cats live longer. Their cats would live longer even if they were allowed outside. People who can't be bothered with proper food or vet care will have cats that live shorter lives even if kept indoors.

So although this 3-vs-20 (or whatever) statistic is presented as if it were of some use to a cat owner trying to decide whether to let their cat out, it actually isn't. To be of use all other aspects of the cats' care would have to be equal, and I doubt that's the case. _All other things being equal_, do indoor-only cats live longer? Presumably. There are no cars indoors, after all. But I doubt the difference in life expectancy is as big as its made out to be.

But I admit I'm biased by personal experience too... my parent's cats were allowed outdoors when I was growing up and never had any health problems related to being outdoors whatsoever (unless you count eating grasshoppers and throwing up the exoskeleton afterwards).

Dunno. I was planning on keeping Misty and Stormy indoors when I got them. Stormy, however, was not on board with this plan. I don't feel comfortable letting them roam in this area -- I doubt I'll ever REALLY let them roam at all -- but they enjoy being outside so much I wouldn't feel comfortable not letting them out at all either. So I take them outside and supervise them now and again.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I do agree that the author shouldn't be stating that it's an unbiased article. The reality is, everything we write/say is biased by our own experiences, so nothing is truly unbiased...we all have our perspectives. 

As far as the statistic I quoted I don't have the study so I have no idea how they came to the conclusion. I doubt we'll ever get an apples to apples comparison when it comes to the vet care question. But I do know that we have an extensive wildlife population with predators like coyotes, fox and fisher cats all very local...I've seen them all in my town and have spotted fox in my back yard and my neighbor has seen coyotes in the power lines that run behind our houses. And I live in the most highly populated area of the state, so cars are another problem. So I don't doubt that those numbers are fairly accurate for this area, whether vet care is part of the equation or not. Whether it's 4 yrs or 6 yrs or 7 yrs is not the question for me...it's that the difference is significant.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

doodlebug said:


> But there's a second aspect of letting cats roam loose that I have a real problem with...and that's when the neighbor's cat becomes a nuisance. We've seen it here many times...Nini has a cat peeing on her door, October had a cat trying to get in her house, I had my neighbor's cat cause an episode of redirected aggression with my cats that cost me $500 in vet bills. I was also woken up multiple times in the middle of the night by Maggie yowling because this cat was looking in my windows and he was using my mulch beds as a litter box. Maybe these things don't happen in the UK because all the cats go out and know each other so they're either not as territorial or respect territorial boundaries better. Fortunately my neighbor was willing to keep her cat in, although I had to talk to her about it twice. If she hadn't, her cat was going to disappear...I was going to trap it and take it to the shelter saying it was a stray. So when making the decision to allow a cat to roam, it not only affects you and your cat, it also effects the neighbors.


Hmmm ... we have lots of cats out and about in our neighbourhood. At the top of my head I can count 6 different cats I've seen in my back garden at different times. With the exception of one - Matilda - I'm pretty sure most are indoor/outdoor cats (Matilda is our feral). 

Are they a nuisance? Well - Toby gets disturbed sometimes by them and I found cat poo just outside my front door one time (ewww) but they don't really make a nuisance of themselves. Its interesting because they do all come at different times, and at about the same time every day (I have a 'feral' dish that I tend to put out just before Matildas 'shift' - but I know a little ginger Tom tends to come by after she has left to have his fill before the vixen finishes it off). But all in all they aren't any trouble really. 

So perhaps I'm quite lucky in that regard. Or perhaps UK cats *are* just more aware of boundaries etc. I don't know. We never hear a cat fight at night in my neighbourhood, despite the significant number of cats there are around here. And, in fact, until I get Toby I wasn't even aware that we have such a large cat population here. Pretty much everyone in this street must have one. Seriously! And only two are indoor only that I know of. There is this stunningly beautiful amazingly well groomed long haired black and white cat who sits so dainty in a windowsill as I go to work in the morning and you can just tell by looking at her that (a) she is completely spoiled and (b) she does not ever go outside.

Anyway, hopefully most people keep their cats in at night. My Mum always has. 

But even if they were a nuisance - from what I understand (and if any UK people know differently please tell me) - UK cats aren't seen as 'owned' in the same way as dogs so if a cat poos in your best plants or scratches your car - annoying as that is - I don't think there are any legal avenues you can go down to sue the owner. This also means of course that if you run over a cat with your car you don't have to notify the police. You do have to notify the police if its a dog.

I wonder why?


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

October said:


> Many pounds are "legally obliged" to sell cats to research laboratories???? Really??????????


I'd be surprised if research labs wanna buy cats with unknown heritage. Scientific studies are very carefeully planned and performed and the animals are (at least when it comes to large and well respected labs) ordered from licensed breeders of research animals. The breeders "create" the kind of animals the lab orders.

Cats from the streets that might have had parasite infections or other infections aren't suitable research animals since there's always a possibility that previous disease affect the lab results.

In Sweden it's illegal for laboratories to buy animals from other sources than licensed breeders.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

We don't have any nuisance laws regarding cats here either (although some cities/states do), which is why the cat was going to 'disappear'...I didn't have any legal recourse to get animal control to come out and tell her to keep it in. 

I do agree that it depends on the cat(s). I had another neighbor who's cat was outside and it never bothered my cats. He kept my yard and shed free of mice and never saw him pooping in the mulch (if I recall correctly, he used to go inside to use the litter box :lol. He could come up on my porch when I was outside and I'd be petting him while my front door was open with my cats behind a screen looking out and it never bothered them. It was when he moved and the other cat started coming around that the trouble started...for some reason my cats didn't like him (yes he was neutered). 

Anyway, you just never know how it's going to work out. My point is that it's all well and good to make a decision that being outdoors is best for your cat, but if the neighbors start complaining then you need to be prepared to keep the cat in or risk that they will do something about it.


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

I don't think there's any one "right" answer on this issue.  The appropriateness of indoor/outdoor status depends on the relative safety of your environment, but it also depends on the cat. Some cats can live fine indoors all their lives; others would go mad.

My four housecats are former ferals who are terrified of everything, including the outdoors, so I never let them out. They seem totally content. I also have two cats living on a porch who've lived most of their lives unowned and outdoors, who I would be happy to let roam freely, but they're FIV+. One (domesticated) seems content staying in one place, the other (98% feral) would definitely be happier out. In addition, I "have" some outdoor ferals who I feed but rarely see. I couldn't turn them into housecats if I wanted to, and unless they were also sick, I wouldn't try, because they're genuinely wild and it would be against their nature. (But I do trap-neuter-release as many as I can catch.)

I would say that my personal default position is for indoor-only cats because of the safety issue, but if they actively want to go out and it seems safe for them to do so, then I would let them, at least for short periods.

And oh yeah, unleashed outdoor cats of any kind are illegal in my county, but most people ignore the law. Our neighborhood has tons of cats running around: owned, barely-owned, stray, feral. There's very little conflict between neighbors that I know of -- so far.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

doodlebug said:


> As far as the statistic I quoted I don't have the study so I have no idea how they came to the conclusion. I doubt we'll ever get an apples to apples comparison when it comes to the vet care question. But I do know that we have an extensive wildlife population with predators like coyotes, fox and fisher cats all very local...I've seen them all in my town and have spotted fox in my back yard and my neighbor has seen coyotes in the power lines that run behind our houses. And I live in the most highly populated area of the state, so cars are another problem. So I don't doubt that those numbers are fairly accurate for this area, whether vet care is part of the equation or not. Whether it's 4 yrs or 6 yrs or 7 yrs is not the question for me...it's that the difference is significant.


http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/o...avior_tip_sheets/your_cat_indoors_or_out.html


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Mitts & Tess said:


> doodlebug said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the statistic I quoted I don't have the study so I have no idea how they came to the conclusion. I doubt we'll ever get an apples to apples comparison when it comes to the vet care question. But I do know that we have an extensive wildlife population with predators like coyotes, fox and fisher cats all very local...I've seen them all in my town and have spotted fox in my back yard and my neighbor has seen coyotes in the power lines that run behind our houses. And I live in the most highly populated area of the state, so cars are another problem. So I don't doubt that those numbers are fairly accurate for this area, whether vet care is part of the equation or not. Whether it's 4 yrs or 6 yrs or 7 yrs is not the question for me...it's that the difference is significant.
> ...


Er... I'm confused what that link has to do with a conversation about why lecturing people on letting their cats outside may not be appropriate given cultural differences, since it basically constitutes lecturing people on letting their cats outside. At any rate, I already know that the HSUS likely doesn't approve of my occasional supervised outings with my cats. I consider this another point in favor of occasional supervised outings with my cats. :twisted: 

Doodlebug: you may not be concerned how big the difference is, but telling someone "Your cat will only live for 3 years if you let it out but 20 if you keep it in" creates a much different impression than if the real difference, is, say, 12 years vs 14 years. At any rate, as a scientist these sorts of unsourced statistics are just a pet peeve of mine regardless of whether they have any actual effect. Without some idea where they come from the numbers are meaningless (and although I'm not saying that's the case here, I've certainly encountered several cases where, upon further investigation, the unsourced statistics proved to have been basically made up.)


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

My mother has had ... oh about 30 cats and only two of them have died young (and one of those from cancer). Her present cat isn't keen on going outside but all her other cats have been indoor/outdoor. So - on that premise alone I see no evidence that having a cat roam freely significantly reduces life span.

However. I'm talking about the UK of course where cats may not face the dangers US cats would from other animals outside.

That link is interesting Merry. Thank you. But I still have my reasons for believing in the indoor/outdoor option for cats. And if people think I'm a bad cat Mum as a result well -there isn't a great deal I can do about that . Its very much a personal decision and I think we need to leave this discussion well alone now before it gets nasty. All I ask is that people take cultural differences in account before blasting them for letting their cats out. Blasting me for example won't change my mindset - it would only cause upset. I have never blasted anyone here for keeping their cats in and I never would because I respect their decision. All I ask is the same in return.

Its a hot topic but its nothing as straightforward as whether you should declaw your cats for example. It really isn't, although I think some people believe it is.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

In the article it said this:But, on average, cats who are allowed to roam outdoors often don't live to see age five. Cats who are always kept safely confined can live to be 18 to 20 years old.

Ive emailed a friend of mine who does alot of research. I asked her where to find studies done on life expectancy subject. She is contacting a vet friend of her to find out. I had mentioned to her most articles seemed like they are "formed opinions" not true studies. 

She did bring up an interesting pointutdoor cats may be more at risk for vehicle collisions and death by fights with other cats, dogs or coyotes… but then again, indoor cats may be more at risk for overeating and death by diabetes or inactivity (or tainted pet food!).

Ill post when I find out any studies from vets or vet schools.


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

Mitts & Tess said:


> She did bring up an interesting pointutdoor cats may be more at risk for vehicle collisions and death by fights with other cats, dogs or coyotes… but then again, indoor cats may be more at risk for overeating and death by diabetes or inactivity (or tainted pet food!).


While I see your point, I don't really see why cats allowed to go outside would not eat tainted pet food??


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Mitts & Tess said:


> In the article it said this:But, on average, cats who are allowed to roam outdoors often don't live to see age five.


I don't believe that at all. Thats at least definitely not the case for UK cats (at least in the country) because I've seen otherwise with my own eyes. Seriously. That cannot be true.

Only one of my mothers cats died before age 5 (that was my baby Tarry). One died aged 9 from cancer. The others have all been in their teens. 

I reckon on average my mothers cats have lived ... hmmm ... 15 years? Some have lived up to 18. 15 probably isn't that old but I would suggest that was more down to poor kitty nutrition than anything else.

People can sprout statistics all they like but you cant deny what I've seen in practice. Sadly some cats do die young on the roads (or killed by dogs :evil: ) but that is something someone deciding to allow their cats freedom to roam has to accept before letting them out. 

And in any case. Is expected life span really the only factor as to whether to let cats out?


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Mitts & Tess said:


> In the article it said this:But, on average, cats who are allowed to roam outdoors often don't live to see age five. Cats who are always kept safely confined can live to be 18 to 20 years old.


Right, but it doesn't give a source for that claim. Without a source the numbers really don't mean much. I mean, for all we know they just made them up.

I think they phrased that whole thing in an interesting way, too. They say, "Cats that are allowed to roam outdoors often don't live to see age 5" and then "Cats that are always kept safely confined can live to be 18 or 20 years old." I notice neither of these statements actually has anything to do with the other: they're not actually making a claim that indoor cats live longer than indoor-outdoor cats, just making it sound like they are.

Can cats that are always kept indoors live to be 18 or 20? Sure. Cats who _aren't_ always kep safely confined can live to be 18 or 20 years old, too. I know several indoor/outdoor cats who lived to their early 20's. Do they do it less often than indoor-only cats? Quite possibly, but the article doesn't adress that issue (although they make it sound as if they did.)

Do cats who are allowed outdoors often not live to see age 5? Probably. Based on the accounts of raising kittens I've read here, I suspect the same could be said of indoor-only cats. Unfortunately mortality rates are always higher among the very young.

I should probably stop picking on the HSUS now.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

It may be worth pointing out here that I wasn't after an debate on indoor only indoor/outdoor cats. I was merely trying to point out that one should respect cultural differences before they condemn. That message seems to have got a bit lost somehow 

:?


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

All I want to hear is that it's a personal choice, just like how you raise your kids.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I definitely agree it's a personal choice. Hopefully it's an informed choice made recognizing and accepting the risks to the cat, the potential annoyance factors to the neighbors and understanding the potential consequences. 

As for the statistics....Bethany....you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree unless someone can find a study (I looked and couldn't find anything but tons of articles stating 2-5 year life span for outdoor cats with no backup)


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Close your ears, Marie. I believe I should add this post. It might save a life. 

I think it's only right to tell you that my parents were from the UK, and always had indoor/outdoor cats. My mother spoiled them rotten; she loved them so much...and always called them "honey" (which I thought was a bit silly until I started doing it with my cats!) Salmon, sardines, nothing was too good for her cats, and my father, a rather stoic and strict Englishman who seldom showed his affection for anything, would not move if there was a cat on his lap. If the cat wasn't in by bedtime, both of my parents took a flashlight and went walking, calling the cat's name...even through the woods behind our neighborhood. 

NOT ONE of my mother's cats lived more than two years.  My mother never had a cat after I was about 9 years old, because she couldn't take the heartbreak any more. Everyone let their cats outdoors in that neighborhood.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Nini said:


> Mitts & Tess said:
> 
> 
> > She did bring up an interesting pointutdoor cats may be more at risk for vehicle collisions and death by fights with other cats, dogs or coyotes… but then again, indoor cats may be more at risk for overeating and death by diabetes or inactivity (or tainted pet food!).
> ...


Yes, outside cat could eat tainted for also. I guess the point I was trying to make is there are risks on each side which affect a cats health and longevity. Just cuz a cat is indoor only doesnt mean he is home free from any negative results. There are factors affecting his life span like overeating, diabetes, etc. Sorry I didnt make it clear. 



melysion said:


> It may be worth pointing out here that I wasn't after an debate on indoor only indoor/outdoor cats. I was merely trying to point out that one should respect cultural differences before they condemn. That message seems to have got a bit lost somehow
> 
> :?


sorry Melysion I thought it was an interesting discussion. I didnt mean to take it off subject!  This is your thread go for it girl!


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Jeanie said:


> NOT ONE of my mother's cats lived more than two years.  My mother never had a cat after I was about 9 years old, because she couldn't take the heartbreak any more. Everyone let their cats outdoors in that neighborhood.


 Thats sad. 

It is worth pointing out the risks. I'm not blind to the added risks of an indoor/outdoor lifestyle for a cat. But they have so much fun out there that they never get when indoors.

Of course this is all academic for me anyway. Toby has to be indoor regardless and any other cat I get while he is around will have to be indoor also to protect Tobys health. But I do so often see him watching yearningly from that kitchen window. Oh well.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Mitts & Tess said:


> melysion said:
> 
> 
> > It may be worth pointing out here that I wasn't after an debate on indoor only indoor/outdoor cats. I was merely trying to point out that one should respect cultural differences before they condemn. That message seems to have got a bit lost somehow
> ...


:lol: Sorry, did I sound a little gruff? It wasn't intentional. Honest


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