# Having trouble, any Breeder's advice?



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

Apparently the blonde I dyed my hair last week is sinking in :roll: I don't understand the application for the TICA cattery name.

Do I need a lifetime membership or regular membership or do I just need to pay the one time fee for a cattery registration?

Is there more to it then just sending a check and a name for the cattery? That seems a little too easy, shouldn't there be a screening process?

I was told by someone(not a breeder) that I shouldn't post any of my idea's for cattery names on any websites because someone might steal one, is this just paranoid or should I really hold back that info?

Also I've narrowed down my search for the perfect breeder to get my queen from down to 2 different breeders, one shows constantly and the other does not, should this make a difference in my decision?

Is stud service really hard to get? There is a Bengal Breeder in Nevada that offers it, but I don't like the look of her studs. I was told by many breeders it will be easier to get if I get a really well pedigreed queen, which I was planning on doing anyways but I also heard many breeders don't offer stud service at all. I would really prefer going with stud service for the first few years until I get completely comfortable with breeding and can build the best outdoor enclosure.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## RarePuss (Jun 16, 2004)

Stud service will be a problem because most breeders will have their own studs and probably will have a problem parting with them and putting them into an unknown situation, and if they have a closed cattery, to have to isolate the male once he comes back to prevent any spread of disease.

definitely great questions to be answered by a seasoned breeder .... too bad i'm not one. :? 

good luck


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

From what I understand the Queen gets sent to the Studs' cattery to be bred. What i'm really hoping for is whatever cattery I choose not to get my queen from I can get stud service from, since I love the look of both cattery's studs and queens.


----------



## Gabreilla Moushigo (Jun 14, 2004)

Payge said:


> I was told by someone(not a breeder) that I shouldn't post any of my idea's for cattery names on any websites because someone might steal one, is this just paranoid or should I really hold back that info?


I don't think anyone is going to be a jerk and steal your cattery name - unless they are just idiots who don't have the imagination to come up with their own name in the first place. However, if you have a couple names in mind - and you are worried about someone taking the name you want - maybe you can wait until you have the papers to sign up for a cattery name - and then put up a poll for like... 1 day (warn us in advance) and then sign up for the name you like and send away for it.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Once a cattery name is registered, noone else can use it, so it would be wise to keep that information to yourself. Some very strict organizations will want you to meet certain specifications---a special room with tile walls and floor for sanitary purposes, a signed statement that you will use a contract approved by the organization, and a veterinary inspection. If you don't pass that inspection, you'll have to make the changes. 

I hate to say this, because I used to breed cats, but some breeders just do not want any competition, and will refuse to sell you a cat with papers or will raise the price to an exhorbitant amount. What would be best, if you haven't already done it, is to hold off on your purchase and registration until you find a mentor. 

Go to as many cat shows as you can, join the local club for Bengal owners, and make friends. Become one of the group and pass the word along that you are studying the breed in hopes of showing and breeding Bengals. Your motive would have to be a love for the breed and an interest in improving the health, conformation, and personality. Breeders also like a buyer who will show their best females. Loving kittens or making money just won't be satisfactory. 

Your mentor, when you find one, might have a female with an excellent pedigree. If so, discuss the possibility of registering a cattery name and ask her what club she recommends. It will help you immensely if you support the local club and find a friend, believe me! If you find a mentor with an excellent kitten (not under 12-14 weeks, so that the quality and coloring can be better judged--and for the good of the kitten), she might be willing to give you a good price and ask for 2 kittens from her first litter. Your cat should be bred to a winning stud with a great pedigree. 

So, hold off for a while and travel a bit, if necessary. I know that people are asking a fortune for Bengals. I hope that you will not join the ranks of those who fight to keep the breed as expensive as possible. I think that's a poor reason for breeding. Please raise only one or possibly two litters a year, and rest your females. I consider it much better to raise the kittens under foot, rather than outside. A separate room is very helpful, but treat them as beloved pets, just as you would if they were going to be yours indefinitely. They'll be better socialized. An outside play yard would be nice, but nothing beats a loving family with warm laps!  
Of course, during this time, do as much reading as you can about Bengals, genetics, and showing cats. Also compare the cat clubs. Good luck.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

wish to register my cattery with TCA, Inc. I understand the fee for cattery registration is a ONE TIME charge only and the cattery name (once approved) will be for my exclusive use and those that I name as co-owners and thus authorize.

TCA, INC. MEMBER CATTERY REGISTRATION FEE: $25.00 - TRANSFER FEE $10.00

RULES PERTAINING TO CATTERY REGISTRATION

1. A cattery name may not exceed fifteen (15) letters (characters and spaces combined).

2. Abbreviations or variations of already registered cattery names are not permitted.

3. Registered cattery names may be added to a cats name as (1) as a prefix, if the cat is bred by the owner of the cattery name, or (2) as a suffix, if the cat is owned, but not bred, by the owner of the cattery name.

4. The prefix cattery name, denoting the breeder of the cat, may NEVER be removed. However, the suffix cattery name may be removed and replaced with a new owners' cattery name when the ownership of a cat is transferred.

5. The owner of a cattery name may add additional names of co-owners of the cattery name, at any time, upon written notification to the TCA Head Registrar, surrender of the original certificate and payment of the appropriate fee. (Same as transfer fee.)

6. Ownership of a cattery name may be transferred by written notification to TCA Head Registrar, surrender of the original certificate and payment of the transfer fee.

CATTERY NAME TO BE REGISTERED *Applicant MUST provide three (3) name choices. Please list in order of preference. If your first choice is already assigned, then your second, or third choice will be used.

CATTERY NAME-FIRST CHOICE __________________________________________________

CATTERY NAME-SECOND CHOICE________________________________________________

CATTERY NAME-THIRD CHOICE __________________________________________________

BREED NAME____________________________________________________________________ 

NAME OF CATTERY OWNER ______________________________________________________

ADDRESS _______________________________________________________________________

CITY _________________________________ STATE ______

ZIP ________PHONE (____) ______________________

E-MAIL_________________________________WEB SITE_______________________________ 

NAME(S) OF CO-OWNERS _______________________________________________________

**NOTE**UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED, EITHER THE OWNER OR CO-OWNER, MAY SIGN FOR THE CATTERY. BOTH SIGNATURES WILL NOT BE REQUIRED, UNLESS THERE IS A SIGNED AGREEMENT ON FILE WITH TCA, INC. STATING OTHERWISE.

OWNERS SIGNATURE _____________________________________ DATE _____/_____/_____

**NOTE**ALL CATTERIES REGISTERED WITH THE etc., etc. 
------------------------------------------ 


Pretty straigtforward and simple, but take a look at these requirements to belong to a strict Siamese club. The club permit links, but no copying:

http://www.oldstylesiamese.com/ethics.html

Each club has its own rules. Good luck. Do your homework!


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

Excellent advice Jeanie, and fortunately I do have a mentor, but I also made it a point to get to know several breeders at the last cat show I went to. I had not thought about the breeders raising their prices. I'm at the moment torn between two different breeders and both quoted me the price of a breeder queen at $2,000. I assumed that was normal since pet quality kittens sell for $500-$800. I do realise this is not a money-making scheme. In fact I plan on losing money, since I will be spaying/neutering the kittens before they go to their new homes. 

The reason i'm torn between the two breeders is this, both have beautiful cats, but one has cats that are much more ALC typey looking. On the other hand the other breeder shows often and has many many titles and very grand pedigrees. While I prefer the look of the ALC looking cats, i'm unsure if I will be able to get stud service as easily without the extremely good pedigree. Since I refuse to buy a kitten without first visiting the cattery thats another issue. One breeder is 7 hours away in one direction, the other is 8 hours away in a completely opposite direction.

I'm also torn because the two queens I wanted to get my breeder from have just been mated, and one of the queens will be retired after this litter. The ideal solution would be to get stud service from the more pedigreed breeder, and get the queen from the ALC looking breeder. I'm waiting on word from the pedigreed breeder to see if she offers the service.

I have picked out my cattery name, I will be sending in the paperwork this week. I plan on belonging to both TICA and TIBCS. I'm kind of at a loss though because while I COULD put a deposit on a kitten now, both breeders make the deposit non-refundable when the kitten reaches 6 weeks of age, i'd much rather have until they are at least 12 weeks to decide if I want one so the coat has more time to develop.

I also wonder if there is a conflict of interests since my mentor happens to be one of the breeders i'm considering getting my breeder queen from.

And since i'm irritated with saying "well pedigreed breeder" and "Alc typey breeder" i'll just call them by their cattery names. The ones with the great pedigrees are from Koppiekatz, and the ALC typeys are from Sari's Bengals. Sari responds to my emails fast but Koppiekatz is very slow, sometimes taking as much as a week to reply. Sari is my mentor, but ive met Koppiekatz in person and she was very warm and sweet and she praised me for my enthusiasm for the breed, I mentioned to her I wished to start breeding and she said "Everyone here once started like you, with a love for the breed, and its the perfect place to start"

I was given advice by my mentor to only buy one queen at first, and use stud service since studs cannot be indoor cats because of the spraying.

whew Payge can write a novel sometimes! lol


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Payge, I'm really going to annoy some breeders now, but after many years of breeding collies, and a few years of breeding Siamese, plus knowing a bit about the facts of reproduction, I can tell you that, without a doubt, bloodlines (genetic qualities from ancestry, color, conformation, etc) are more important than outward appearance (phenotype). Of course you want a nice representative of the breed and you want to breed to an excellent male. However, you will still get some recessive, undesirable qualities from these excellent animals, and if you have an average female and average mele from the same litters, you still have the same bloodlines. You will probably get some excellent results from each of those pairings. I preferred to breed up. Of course, you should never breed a cat or dog who does not meet the standard for conformation, but you might also get a grand champion from that breeding. Bloodlines and dominant and recessive genes will tell the tale. 

I bred a winning collie female to a champion sire, and consistently got at least 80% excellent pups and perhaps one with a nice appearance, but a "snipey" nose or some oher feature that was not desirable. (too narrow) It was a recessive gene, not visible in either sire or dam. I charged more only for the female and male picks of the litter, after the stud owner took his choice. And he always preferred a good pup to the cash. That's the hobby--looking for the perfect example of the species, not making money. This breeder was an all breed judge and had an unheard of three champion males and one grand champion female at his home. This is not unusual with cats, but amazing with dogs. All were treated as pets.

The "More" I referred to was $100-150 dollars more for pick of the litter. These pups had excellent eyesight (almost unheard of)at that time) and a dam who won best puppy at a huge show in Atlantic City, encompassing dogs from the entire eaxt coast, and was consistently bringing home ribbons. The male already had his championship. It is EXTREMELY hard to get a championship on a dog, extremely! And it costs much more to raise puppies!

Now, I'm sure that additional fee for pick of the litter would be at least $200. You are not harming the breed by being reasonable about price. It just does not cost $2000 to raise a kitten. That's my point! That is gouging the buyer. 

Never get a bad example of the breed, but remember that genotype and phenotype are often different. If you haven't studied genetics concerning dominant and recessive traits in bengals, please do. You want to maintain good conformation, health, and color, but that does not make a bengal kitty worth $2,000. People are just charging as much as they can, and they have that right, but is it morally right? I don't think so. Friendliness does not erase that fact. Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

I always assumed they charged more for breeder kittens because they wanted the buyer to take breeding seriously and not just on a whim go "Oh ive got $300 i'm gonna go buy a breeder kitten and make a bunch of money" I'm sure it also discourages competition. 

I think I presented my dilemma with the two breeders wrong. While Koppiekatz shows frequently and has many many titles to its name (and the sires) Sari's also has good bloodlines, they are just newer since her queens are mostly F series (1-4 generations removed from the Asain Leopard cats) and Sari rarely shows.

I have pretty much decided to go with Koppiekatz though, it just seems to be the safer bet with the many grand champions in the bloodlines.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I think you're made a good choice. You will help to improve the breed with better bloodlines.

As fpr everyone wanting to breed, when I raised collies, everyone got papers, and we were hoping the pups we raised would be shown. Also, if it was pick of the litter female, the owner of the stud dog (my mentor) was hoping to get some excellent quality pups from her by one of his other champions. However, only those who were already showing pups were interested. In all of those years, almost every pup I raised was spayed or neutered by the time it was 6 months old.

There are people like those you mentioned. They just aren't as common as you might think. Interview people thoroughly before you show them a kitten. Ask the right questions, and you'll know whether or not to include the papers. Have them sign a carefully worded contract.

I called once about a Himalayan for breeding purposes, and was questioned. I explained that I am an animal lover with quite a bit of experience with cats, who loves kittens. She told me she didn't give papers, and asked why should I want to breed cats because I love them? What better reason is there? Not realizing at the time that Himalayans sometimes have respiratory problems (didn't do my homework), I did not mention improving the health and conformation. I didn't know enough, really. I should have researched the matter. 

Eventuallly I found a breeder who would sell me one with papers, and was pleased to do so. The kitten had tear stains, and seemed to have respiratory problems. It was beautiful, but I decided against breeding a cat with a problem that she assured me was not illness, only typical of flat-faced cats. As beautiful as they are, I don't want to be someone who breeds problem to problem.  That was years ago, when I was showing collies.


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

Ive never told this story before, mostly because its extremely painful.

When I was 15 I had my first job and one day decided to buy a persian to breed. Now before you get upset I will be the first to admit I did it ALL WRONG. I wasn't even thinking of vets costs, or anything really other than "Wouldnt it be cool to have little persian kittens?" So I went to a breeder I found in the paper, she sold me a female black furred copper penny eyed persian kitten with breeding rights for $300. I happily took her home and loved her to bits. I named her Isabelle. I carefully groomed her fur every day, I even used cat spray on conditioner to give it extra shine. A few days after I got her I realised she had a large bald spot on her stomach, upon closer inspection she had another one on her back, the size of a childs fist!!

I took her back to the breeder who said "Oh, its ringworm, her littermates had that problem too" She kept Isabelle a month and returned her with....ringworm still. So my mother took Isabelle to the vet, and the vet noticed Isabelle had swollen gums and paw pads. The diagnosis was an immune disorder. She was spayed and given cortisone shots to control the problem, but it ran rampant. I called the breeder who said "Yeah a lot of my cats have that problem, you want a replacement cat?" Of course I didnt! I loved my baby girl!!! And I sure as heck wasnt going to get another cat from THAT woman. 

Isabelle faded rapidly, the cortisone shots having less and less of an effect. She passed away at 6 months of age. I loved her so much, she wasnt like my Sam, but she would sleep at the foot of my bed and purr so much it would vibrate the whole bed. She was burried in the pet cemetary next to Sam. 

Aside from a very sad story this taught me so many valuable lessons. When it comes to caution I have it in spades. This cat that I refer to as my "Breeder Queen" will not just be a cat, she will be what Envy and Chaos are to me, family, my children, my child. Like Chaos and Envy, she will have the absolute BEST veterinary care possible, the best food, the most LOVE. I have tentatively decided on the name Harmony for her, it goes with my cattery name which I can't say.

How DARE that woman breed cats she KNEW had a great chance of getting an immune disorder?!! At 15 the instant the vet told me it was genetic I told him to spay her, how could a GROWN woman not come to the same conclusion?!! She broke my heart!! So help me I will NEVER be that breeder.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

That woman was completely irresponsibe. Actually, she was cruel to keep breeding that line. How sad that you went through that! Someone should have taken her to court and sued for all costs and punitive charges also.


----------



## Payge (May 12, 2004)

I agree. One other thing I just remembered about her was when I went to pick out Isabelle, she said none of the kittens she had right then were show quality, and I had wanted a show quality breeder so I could show her. What do you know but two months later in the midst of just finding out about Isabelles issues I went to a CFA cat show with my father and there she was with Isabelles brother. He was Isabelles twin basicly.

I also remember she kept her cats in cages, which had I known ANYTHING back then would have been a huge warning sign.

When I got Envy and Chaos each of them went to my own vet (the one my family had had since I was a child and we had Sam) and were thouroughly screened within a two days. One of the biggest things I miss now having moved across the country is that vet. Fortunately my Fiances family vet is very nice as well, and ive just got to trust him when he says that they understand how paranoid I am when it comes to my babies.

When I got Envy I grilled her breeders vet on any and all possible hereditary complications the breeders cats might have, I asked about life expectancys of them, the vet said none had died and the breeder had been in business for 14 years. The only thing that had happened was one of the kittens had been blinded at birth in one eye by its mother who overgroomed it. The eye had to be removed and the mother was spayed. The kittens were given to another cat who had just had a very small litter and she raised them and nursed them. The one eyed cat was there and in very good health from what I saw so I decided to take Envy.

The two biggest reasons i'm going to school to become a Vet Tech are Sam and Isabelle, yes Sam died of old age, but I don't want to trust my babies lives in the hands of someone else, its too hard.


----------

