# I Need to Surrender My Cats



## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Well again, two male unneutered cats. I can't even get near them. Even with Feliway, over the last week they are VERY moody and they hiss constantly. I tried to get the one in his cage today for his vet visit for his shots - so he can be neutered, but he wouldn't have it. Just ripped my hand open and went and hid under the couch, after peeing on one of the pillows on the couch - ruining it.

I think these guys were strays, because they HATE people, they're more or less ferals. I'm about to turn them into strays again and get a real cat that likes people. I emailed the SPCA to see if they'll take them, but of course they're not open on weekends. Does Animal Control do anything with cats like this? I'm out of ideas! I've been working with these beasts for six months! They have not changed one bit.


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

OMG where did you get them? If they were feral, it is very difficult to tame them. Did you get them at the same time, did they get introduced properly? A little more background please.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Craigslist. The listing more or less said "they're brothers, I don't have time or money to take care of them. Here's a picture, send me an email.. etc." I don't have much more information than that.

Introduction, wasn't too much more than them hiding in the carrier when they brought them over, we kind of tiled the carrier so they come out, all they did was run into the bedroom and hide under the bed for a few weeks. I had to kick them out of my bedroom because their constant wrestling/fighting was keeping my neighbors below me awake all night long, as well as me. My wife has sat for hours with them, as well as me. But they still run away when you get close.

Sound feral to you? They sure do to me. I'm inches from calling Animal Control on them.


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

I am so very sorry about this. Maybe this is why they were given away due to their behavior issues. It sounds like 6 months is enough time to get a cat socialized but in your case it has not worked. It may be too late now, but is it possible to separate them so they are not together so much? Do you ever spray water on the agressive cat, the one who initiates the fighting? What kind of behavior techniques have you tried. Maybe some of the cat experts on this site will be able to offer some suggestions.

I wonder how just one cat would do in your household. I remember after my two older cats passed away, my remaining one loved being an only kitty. She was such a different cat but then she got lonely so I ended up adopting a kitten. And now they fight a lot too but they do have moments where they are so tired that they just ignore each other.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

They're not all over eachother all the time, and they don't follow eachother all the time, sometimes, not always. The aggressive one is the one I was trying to have neutered. Obviously he won't have that. I have a one bedroom apartment, so the only separation could be one in the bathroom, and one out of the bathroom. I don't spray water, but I usually get a handfull and toss it on him when they won't stop fighting.

Already emailed Animal Control. They may just need to be put down, and put out of their misery. They're terrified of everything in here, even though it's as quiet as can be...


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

Hmm that is tough but consider keeping one? I am a cat person so I always need at least one cat living with me.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Yeah I'm a cat person too, not fond of dogs really. Smelly, needy, clunky, etc...

Keeping one, well maybe. The aggressive one definatley not. The other one won't even let me close enough to pet him. So he's just as bad, but the other side of the scale. Tedi attacks/hisses/growls/snarls at me, Bear just runs away and hides. He only comes out at night to eat.


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

Well I've heard some cats like when the agressive cat is no longer around. Maybe Bear would warm up to you and your wife if he were an only kitty.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Yeah he's the quieter one. Bear does get kind of defensive though, with the hissing and all. They have apparently always been together, since they're brothers, from the same litter. I almost think it's too late for them, they're 18 months old.


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

Well, maybe they were abused as kittens and they don't trust humans anymore. I hope you can at least keep one. If you do give them to the Humane Society, would you consider getting more cats? Maybe you can foster one before adopting to make sure it is a good match for you and your wife.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

The Baltimore County Humane Society won't touch them "if they can't handle them." SPCA says to contact Animal Control. I just sent AC an email a bit ago.

I'd get another one, as a kitten. No older than 4 or 5 months. Preferably younger, maybe 1-2 months. Better to start young I suppose. But neither of them have really shown any improvement yet. Tedi has, but as soon as he's nice, it goes away that fast. I feel that they were both abused and neglected. Like maybe born in the SPCA or something, I have no idea what happened to these cats.


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## horseluvrelisha (Jul 5, 2010)

I've had adult feral cats who were 'tamed' and became lovely housepets.

Separating them is the key. If the cat has no company but you, he sees no one but you, you're the only one who feeds him or talks to him, he'll warm up to you pretty fast. I bet if you gave the aggressive one to the SPCA or just had him put down (which is what I would do in this situation instead of turning him out to an uncertain fate on the streets - starving to death, killed in a fight, hit by a car - do the kind thing, catch him with a towel or a net and take him to the vet [note: that's also how we got our feral barn cats spayed/neutered] to have him humanely euthanized), the timid one would come right around.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

So you think Bear is just afraid of Tedi? I guess that makes sense. Tedi typically will be the one to start fights.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

They don't sound feral to me, they sound like very poorly socialized kitties. I believe they *can* be socialized because I have done it with multiple adult feral cats. The process usually takes a very long time of dedicated and persistent patience in working towards the socialization goals. 
If you surrender these cats to anything but a no-kill shelter they will most likely be pts. _As it is, the chances of them being adopted through the NKS is slim-to-none unless a foster care-giver agrees to take on the challenge and socialize them._
If you decide to get other kitties, be judicial in choosing and actually meet the cat(s) and spend time with them before committing. I think someone CL 'dumped' these two on you without giving you all the facts about their personalities/behavior because they couldn't or wouldn't socialize them and realized the problem of having unsocialized cats.
You've tried and that may be all you could have done for them. You tried. You cannot help it if they have not responded positively to your efforts.
Best of luck for a good resolution.
h


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

I think the best option may be to give up the very aggressive one, and keep the timid one. He may be better to work with. Thoughts?


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I think it could help. At least it would give you one more opportunity to try to reach this cat through establishing a relationship and connect with him. Couldn't hurt to try, at least!

...and if it still doesn't work out ... you'll know you *did* try everything you could.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Well, the aggressive one is typically the one that will allow me to pet him the most. But, he's been under the couch all day long after his little carrier incident this morning, and again he picks all the fights. I'm not sure if Tedi is the right one to give up, since he isn't as skiddish.


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## tate (Jan 17, 2010)

Oops, I somehow managed to overlook the entire second page of this topic. Please disregard.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Who knows. I can't even get to him now to begin to cage him up to take him to the vet. I also don't really want to spend $150 to have him taken care of, and then find out he is the same animal.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Then surrender both and get a cat better suited for your family.


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Well I'd rather not be facilitating two cats dying...


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

What are your options?
Please pardon my abruptness. In one breath you ask 'what do I do', in the next you say you want to give up on both and start over with a 'better' pet, followed yet again by maybe giving up only on one cat while keeping the other, then further waffling by trying to decide which of the cats to keep ... ?????!!!!!
_Do you see where I am coming from? _
Either you want to help these two cats, or you don't. I am sorry for being so blunt, but make a commitment or decide to do something else. I will readily admit, I am *not* a fan of the 'something else' option ... but I am realist enough to understand that if you do not have the skills and/or do not have the ability to expend the amount of time/effort this task requires, then your options for these two cats are going to be very limited.


Are you willing to do whatever it takes to reach each cat on a personal level, individually, and on the cat's time-line ... no matter if it takes months or even years?

There ARE no quick-fixes for this scenario. 
Anything 'fast' isn't going to be good. 
Either you take the time and make a concerted effort to separate each cat and work independently with them to persistently, yet patiently, socialize them to your family (_you and wife_) or you don't. Concentrated and dedicated socialization is the ONLY thing that will turn either of these cats around to becoming relaxed and confident housepets. 
Having them neutered will certainly help.
There are no guarantees about what sort of personality will develop or what level of socialization each cat will achieve after neutering and dedicated socialization work. 
Are you prepared to accept the cats as they will be? 
I absolutely feel their socialization can be improved but I will not sugar-coat this and tell you it will be easy. It will be long, hard work. BUT! ... the rewards will make all of your efforts worth it when you have happy and relaxed housecats. It *can* be done. It just needs to *be* done and you have to *live-it* every moment with both cats.
_I have tamed and socialized completely feral adult cats into our own personal housecats and they are wonderful pets. I will help you all I can, explaining what to do, why you are doing it and what the goal is that you want to achieve with each step of teaching the cat socialization skills._

If you can not, or will not, dedicate yourself to teaching these cats the necessary socialization skills _they need to have_ to live happily and confidently with a family, well, then, I just don't know what to advise you.

_What are your options?_


*edit*Do you live in an area safe enough (low traffic or loose dogs) these two brothers could live as outdoor kitties? If not completely loose, perhaps in a very large outdoor enclosure with temp-controlled sleeping area?


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

To start let me preface a few things:

1. They can't be outdoor cats for a few reasons... a) I live about ten miles from Baltimore city, a city with about 1 million stray cats. b) I live in an apartment. c) Big main road near my house.

2. I don't have any real way to separate them without losing all of my sleep. I tried this once, and they stayed up ALL night meowing from about 9 PM until I got fed up around 3 AM and let the one out of the bathroom. So separation isn't an option until I move in January.

As for your note regarding knowledge, time etc. Time isn't a HUGE issue, I have a few hours a day in which I'm not working, but my wife also needs attention.  I also don't really have the know-how as to how to tame these little guys. I understand neutering MAY help, but I'm not financially in the position to drop $150 dollars per cat to potentially have no change, or make it worse. My wife would also put me in the "dog house" for a while.

Yes, I don't know what to do really. The only reason I said animal control, is because the SPCA and Humane Society both recommended it. Keeping one came from an earlier comment.

Still confused! But I hope that explanation helped.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Thanks, the explanation *did* help. I am now seeing just how up-against-the-wall you are with these two.

I have some ideas and suggestions, but I don't have the time to post right now. Let me think on this a bit and reply later tonight? I *do* want to help, and I hope that I can. 
Let me tell you, though ... I think you *can* do this, even with the limitations you described. It may not happen fast, but it can happen. If you gather enough grains of sand, eventually you'll have a beach. Or a really big litterbox.
heidi =^..^=


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Great! Looking forward to the ideas...


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## sephi (May 9, 2010)

This cat is not fixed and that is one of the big reasons he is like that. I have one like that , found outisde my home about seven months old and hungry, I gave her food for couple of months and I finally took her in( neighbors were trying to get rid of her!!!!!). She would not let me touch her or pick her up. It was a mess taking her to vet. She scratched me all over. She wanted to get out every nite. That stopped after she was fixed and she mellowed out some. It has been almost 3 and half years now.. Little by little she is getting better. She now let me play with her and rub against me etc...etc... But she still won't let me pick her up. I rescued her not because to give me satisfaction that I want from pet, I rescued her because if I was not she would have been dead a long time ago, I am ok with that. She is not the friendliest cat in the world and probably never will be but she is enjoying good life, good food and plays and happy to be alive and I don't see there is anything wrong with that.

..and just to let you know last year she was diagnosed with felv!!! 
get them fixed and give them a chance to live.


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## Kattt (Dec 20, 2008)

I know it's a very tough situation, but I'm not one to give up on my pets. My cats are my babies, flaws and all. As much as you feel like you got a raw deal, imagine how your kitties must feel being that stressed out. 

I can sympathize with your situation. Because I have a female cat that I got at 6 weeks old, and she was much like this for years - And still is to some degree. I have to keep her entirely separated from my male cat that I got at the same time as her, because she'll viciously attack him. It took ALOT of time (years), of love and patience to get her to learn to trust me. And even to this day, 7 years later.. she's still not 100% trusting. She's extremely skittish and has a high level of anxiety. She's not an affectionate cat. But I've resigned to the fact that she never will be. She doesn't like people, and doesn't like to be touched for longer than a minute or 2.. but that’s ok too. I give her the space and freedom to be herself, and only be bothered when she decides she wants the attention. She has her own unique personality that I've grown to love her for. And I firmly believe that if you are truly a cat lover, you can learn to create a unique bond with your cats as well, even if they didn't turn out to be what you expected a cat to be. 

I agree with Heidi. It will take ALOT of work on your part, and you have to be committed. Much like children, we can't pick our cats personalities, we just have to learn to love them for who they are. I don't think 18 months is too old to help them. Why don't you discuss options with your vet? There's medication that they can prescribe in extreme stress related situations to calm your kitties nerves, but I would only resort to that if absolutely necessary. Feliway did nothing for my cat either. However, Rescue Remedy sure mellowed her out. Have you tried that? Its in liquid form that you can drop into their water bowl to relieve stress. I would look into things further, before surrendering them. They deserve that much at least.

Good luck. I hope with Heidi's experienced suggestions, you figure out a way to happily keep them both. Don't give up on them.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Okay. I've rested and been thinking of this off-and-on all day.

I tame and socialize feral, semi-feral and poorly-socialized cats for public adoption. It is my job to help them learn that being handled by people can be Good Things. The cats I foster *must* be able to be handled by many different people and remain relaxed and confident in order to allow a family to fall in love with it and adopt it. 

The way I handle these fosters is the same way I handle my own cats, so it isn't any change in behavior for me ... but this will be a big change for you and your wife. Once you've adjusted to this change and have incorporated it into your daily behavior with the cats, just remain consistent, patient and persistent ... and you'll get positive results.

First, you will need to get the boys neutered. The extra testosterone coursing through their systems will hinder your efforts at socialization if they are feeling 'manly' and trying to exert dominance between themselves or if they are scenting in-season females and cannot reach them for breeding. Both of those testosterone issues can/will cause the relationship problems you are seeing between them.

Next, you need to commit to this project: Socializing your cats to human contact. Your end-goal in every endeavor and aspect of working with your cats is to help them learn that people mean Good Things. Try always to make every contact as positive as possible. Mistakes will be inevitable, so don't beat yourself up about them. Apologize to the cat (_I know it sounds corny, but do it, and mean it ... the cat will pick up on the emotion and message_) and move forward, continuing to try to make every experience as pleasant as you can.

Right now, your cats are skittish and wary. They don't know all the Good Things they are missing ... and you have to show them. They won't come and do this on their own, so you're gonna have to do it for them. 
It will be scary for them, at first. 
It will be scary because they won't understand what is happening and they don't know if these 'new things' are going to hurt them. They will not be able to *learn* while they are scared. So we have to keep gently handling them, consistently, patiently and persistently ... until they have been handled so many repetetive times in the same consistent ways that they are able to move past their fear and realize ... 'Hey, nothing bad happens when they do this to me!'
When that happens ... then they are able to pay attention to the other Good Things that were happening; like food treats, toys and gentle petting and rubbing massages.

Like I said earlier, there is no quick fix for this. This is going to take time and effort, but if you are consistent it doesn't have to take up too much of your daily time. You'll be working in baby-steps and you'll be repeating those same baby-steps over, and over, and over, and over until the cat (and you!) master those first small steps and they become comfortable and habitual. Then you add another small step, but you keep starting from the beginning to reinforce what was learned earlier and slowly incorporating new socialization skills until little-by-little, the cat is accepting more and more contact as part of their 'normal' ... and then it *becomes* normal. Not only for the cat, but for yourselves as well. 
It is all about creating a wonderful cat-human relationship based on trust and built with confidence.

You will need to learn how to read cat body-language and judge when you need to stay at one level and when you can incorporate new things to advance to higher levels of relaxed and confident contact with your cats. You can only learn this by doing it and watching for how your cat is responding ... and responding to the cat's reactions. 
That is important! 
The cat will tell you when it is ready to accept or ready to have something it is reluctant to accept, repeatedly shown to him until he learns it is okay and accepts it. Cats are individuals and you need to remain flexible to do what the cat needs you to do, to get it to the level of handling you would like to achieve with it, when the cat is ready to move forward.

Okay, that was a LOT of information and I don't expect you to take it all in at once. Same with your cats, they need it in very small steps, but I need to tell you the overall method so you can see the path to the end-goal. 
I would like to suggest you copy/paste this into a document you can save on your computer for quick review. I would also do the same with my Kitty Cat Boot Camp.
http://www.catforum.com/forum/37-behavior/125237-kitty-cat-boot-camp.html
KCBC is information I compiled for a rescue to use as a handout. It is a LOT of information and some of it may not be applicable to you and your situation but I would like for you to take the time to read it and absorb the theme; repetetive, patient and persistent consistency in working through many small steps to reach the goal of a happy, relaxed and confident housepet.

I understand that all of this information can be overwhelming, but if you plan to commit to helping your kitties, you need the info to be able to make an informed decision about whether you think you can help your kitties or not.
Good luck,
heidi =^..^=


PS... Please check out these videos Merry shared in the Feral Forum stickies. The videos are about 10min long, each, and they outline very closely the manner in which I handle the kittens and cats I socialize.


Mitts & Tess said:


> The Urban Cat League teaches you how to tame
> and socialize feral kittens to make them ready for adoption
> into homes instead of life on the streets.
> Produced for the Urban Cat League (http://www.urbancatleague.org)
> ...


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

Wow! Thanks for the long reply, I'll try and soak that up this week. I'm not too sure how to manage this one though. My apartment is 660 sq. feet, with a very small bathroom, and I can't keep them in the bedroom. The bathroom may not be a great place either, because if they get spooked while I'm in there, well I'll leave the rest for you to think about. Ever since I tried to crate Tedi the other day, he's not come out from under the couch. Looks like he ate last night, aside from that he's back to square one.

Back to square one... does that mean I can start over? Ahhh!!! So confusing. I've tried the toys and games, and nothing works. Nothing! Six months and he's exactly the same as before. Bear is afraid of Tedi, I am almost certain of it. Every fight I witness is started by Tedi - who I can't neuter because I can't crate him. Animal control sounds better and better... but I know what that means for him, but I honestly have no other options. I was given this burden, and I can't do a darn thing about it.

I'm honestly half tempted to contact the previous owner and give her a piece of my mind, and ask her what she did to these poor things.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Well, while I think the previous owner perhaps didn't socialize these two properly, I'm not sure she is entirely to blame. Some cats are naturally reluctant to share themselves with people, and if she didn't take steps to socialize them ... and then you didn't either .... I feel there is probably a fair amount of 'blame' to go around. 
_Sometimes it's what the cats are allowed to be. Sometimes it's just no one's fault, it's just how the cats are._
When my foster kittens and cats leave here, they are happy and friendly. I have NO control over what happens to them after they leave my home and if the people in their new home do not continue with the socialization skills I taught the cats, some of them can/will revert. This is why I interact with and handle my cats every day, it is just reinforcing our relationship to keep everyone relaxed and confident together.

With the issues you are presenting, this process may be too difficult for you because my suggestion would be to touch and handle each cat for a short amount of time, every day. This would involve being able to touch the cat. Being able to control the cat with a firm but gentle scruff hold. Being able to place the cat on your lap as you sit on the floor, or hold it next to you, and soothingly pet and rub it with your free hand for a minute or so (_watching the cat for positive responses to the handling_) and then letting it go in a manner that is *you* leaving its' presence and it not running *from* you.

Your decision may have already been made for you. atback
**If you cannot put your hands on the cat, you cannot socialize it to human contact.**
...every feral I work with, I have to work *up* to them allowing me to touch them. You will have to make a judgement call and determine if you think you can achieve that crucial step for socialization with these two cats.


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## Dave_L (Jul 31, 2008)

Re: neutering

I had my two cats neutered two years ago for $7 each. The local SPCA was having a "special". Actually the neutering was free; the $7 was for the post-op medication.

You might shop around; check with the local shelters, rescue groups and vets.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

This situation is really overwhelming. I don't think because you've adopted a cat that they are yours for life, *no matter what*. If that was true, most of us wouldn't have the cats we have now. I've rehomed a cat, many of us have.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I understand that sociallizing grown cats is quite different from taming kittens. I hope you will consider socializing at least one. http://muttcats.com/articles/taming_ferals.htm

Since releasing them is out of the question, the odd are that they would both be put down.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Actually, socialization is the same process between kittens and cats. You (_general you_) really don't change the socialization process very much between them with the exception of the steps taken to keep yourself safe from injury or fear-attack between small kittens, juveniles and mature cats while keeping the felines safe from injury as well. The major differences in handling are subtle variations in techniques employed when encountering the various amounts of resistance between a kitten or cat, depending on its' stage of instinctual development, maturity and how long the feline has remained untouched and settled into its' life-preserving habits. Flexibility among choosing from many different techniques and their judicious use is key so the handler can find the best technique to help socialize each individual with the least amount of stress and most success for a long-lasting and positive outcome.
All of the different handling programs are beneficial because they offer education about many techniques. It is up to the handler to be able to recognize what is and isn't working and to have the ability to change methods for the benefit of the individual kitten or cat. The more knowledge of techniques the handler has, or has access to, gives the handler a wider base of information to draw from to help each cat.
Read and learn all you can so you can be well-informed when socializing kitties.
Good luck!
h =^..^=


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

I think that's a nice way of saying she neglected them, before that they may have been abused. Hopefully she answers my email.

Still soaking in your input...

I'm also going to get a bigger carrier than my little tiny one. Mine is meant for a Terrier or ONE cat.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm wondering whether you should just get a separate small carrier? Wouldn't Tedi attack Bear if they were in a carrier together?


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## athomas (Jul 7, 2010)

They'd be too scared to attack eachother. Small carriers don't seem to be an option here, they'll latch on to the edges like the one did Saturday. The big ones have a nice big opening at the top, and they don't have a say about going in or not.


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## Kattt (Dec 20, 2008)

I strongly agree that they need to be in separate carriers. You've already stated that one cat is clearly afraid of the other, so shoving them into a small space together such as a carrier, on top of that adding the extra stress of a car ride and vet visit, is just a very bad and traumatizing idea for an already stressful situation.

Get 2 carriers. You can put them in close range in the car so they can see each other, but not touch.


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## sephi (May 9, 2010)

athomas said:


> I think that's a nice way of saying she neglected them, before that they may have been abused. Hopefully she answers my email.
> 
> Still soaking in your input...
> 
> I'm also going to get a bigger carrier than my little tiny one. Mine is meant for a Terrier or ONE cat.


That is what I am using, a big dog carrier, lot 
easier to get in there. I have used towel method to put my cat in the cage, use a good size bath towel and gently cover him from back and then pick them up.


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

I havent read the whole thread and I see its in capable hands, but are they not neutered? Surely thats an immense part of the aggression and the #1 problem...


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