# Tug of War w/kitten - Good or Bad?



## DellNec (Apr 19, 2011)

My 10 week old Siamese had one of his toys in his mouth. I went to take it and he started a tug of war. His ears went back and he dug in not letting me take. He then started to make this deep growls. I immediately stopped play.

Is it good or bad to do the tug of war thing. I NEVER seen him act this way with a toy and the growl was his first time making that noise.


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't have a lot of experience with cats doing this, but I do know how to work it with dogs and I am guessing its not a whole lot different.

What your cat did was not appropriate but he is young and doesn't understand. Punishing him for the behavior when he doesn't know its not appropriate is a bit unfair if you look at it from his shoes. With puppies (and I am guessing kittens) the best way to handle it is not get yourself as the parent into the situation to start with. The second you tug back you have lost the fight to parent hehe
Always try to play the trade game. This is a fun way to interact with your kitten and teach him manners. The trade game is simple, you have something more fun (or tasty) in your hand and your willing to trade. This sets the kitten up for a positive behavior and he chooses to let go. Its fun to play this just goofying around rather then waiting until you need to get something from him.

Now with that said, there are proper ways to play tug and rough house. Cats are hunters and its good mentally and physically for them to do so. If you are going to play tug with your pet, set aside a special toy for this activity. Put the toy in a drawer or somewhere they can't touch it unless you initiate the play. Tug away (gently) and have a blast. As soon as the toy is put up however, spend a few minutes playing with other toys with him the trade game. This gets him back into "pet" mode rather then hunter mode. 

Also, when taking something you really want away from your cat be careful with the lure tease. If it looks like prey he is going to stalk and jump it and "kill it". To him its how he plays! 

So even though what he did was not mannerly don't be hard on him... rather turn it into a fun game. I hope that helps!


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## Meezer_lover (Apr 19, 2011)

I'd also be careful because he could rip a tooth out, where he's a kitten and all.


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## Robin1109 (May 8, 2011)

For the first week I had my kitten she would lightly growl when she started playing with a particular toy she liked. I never tugged back or really gave her any positive attention when she did this. She stopped on her own.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing tug as long as there are rules.

I've heard tons of people tell me that playing tug with puppies teaches them 'dominance' and 'agression'...Nope. Tug is one of their favorite games! Sure it can get out of hand, but so can playing football with a little boy. Sometimes young anythings just get too excited.
IMO as long as you use that excitement to teach them something, like good manners and self control, then go for it!

The rules of tug:

1. There is one specific tug toy and it is YOUR toy! This means when you are done playing you put the toy somewhere the cat can't get to it. This toy is only for playing tug, nothing else.

2. You start and finish the game. To start the game you wave the toy in front of their face and say 'take' or 'get it' or whatever else you want to use. Always use the same word though.
The best way to teach manner during tug is to play in lots of short bursts. To take a break have some yummy treats in your other hand, and drop one right in front of their nose. As they release the toy say 'drop', or 'give' or whatever.
They eat the treat, then you invite them to play again. Repeat over and over and over. When they are clearly getting the idea that 'drop' means they are about to get a goodie try saying 'drop' without showing the goody first. Freeze your body language, use a semi-serious voice, and say 'drop'. If they show any sign of ceasing play or dropping they toy (they don't actually have to drop at this point, just relax a bit, or maybe loosen their hold on the toy) you drop the treat and praise them like crazy!
Then offer the toy and say 'take'.

3. When you are ready to end the game you say 'drop' just like very other time, but this time they get a few treats instead of just one, and you also say 'done' or 'finished'. This means the game is actually over.
Stand up, put the toy away, and hold out your empty hands to say 'no more'. Then ignore any attempts to re-start the game that the cat makes. Some kittens might need you to ignore them entirely for up to a 1/2 hour! But don't give in. When they go and find something else to do you can give them attention again.

These rules can also be used for laser pointers, wand toys, cats who play fetch, ect. The main theme is that you don't take the toy away from a fighting animal. If you do that it teaches them that being rude (not sharing, defending their object) means more play. If they do these sort of guarding behaviors simply stand up and walk away, or offer an exchange for a treat or another toy.

Dominance is not a factor in these games! In fact I'm going to write a post in my blog about the dominance myth, but until then check out these sites for why dominance isn't the cause of most naughty behaviors:

(While these links are geared towards dogs they still apply. I'll talk about dominance and cats in my blog.)
-ClickerSolutions Training Articles Contents
-Doggone Safe: Wolf Pack/Dominance Myth 
-"Dominance" myth


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

I think Librarychick is my new BFF :love2

I figured the behavior in cats worked the same way as dogs.


I think something really interesting about tug games with dogs ... they are not trying to pull the toy away from you as much as you think... dogs are very social creatures and if you watch pups they all pull together. think of it as a team effort to rip a chunk of meat apart (or a turkey wishbone LOL)

Tug games and tug toys that work on this premises are so much fun for pet and owner. Its not a struggle fight but more of a both of you working together to shred that toy :love2

I have seen this same team effort from our 2 sister kittens. When they are tugging or playing chase with a ball, they don't try and steal it but find it much more fun to play together as a team. 


Does anyone have any links or pics of their "rough house cat tug toy"?
Just curious what others use. My golden uses this huge toy that was made from hoses from fire dept. (same material) man he loves it when we pull it out but as it weighs 3x as much as these kittens I might not be able to use it for them LOL


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## ~Siameseifuplz~ (May 6, 2007)

Well you need to figure out if the cat was actually playing or if he was trying to guard his toy. The best way to figure that out is to let go and see if he runs off with his toy or if he approaches you to keep playing. If he is actually enjoying it then I see no problem playing tug. My dog growls during tug but it's very different from his serious growl and if I let go of the toy he immediately shoves it back into my hand to keep going, it's not aggression, it's play.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

TBH ~Siameseifuplz~ I don't think it matters either way. People always think of guarding as a bad thing, but within limits it's not only normal but natural and acceptable.

IMO as long as your kitten isn't actually attacking you who cares if he's guarding? It's his toy, if he want to hide under the bed with it let him. he'll get bored soon enough, lol.

In the mean time tug can be used to teach a 'drop' cue, which can be used for if/when your pet steals a 'no no' item. if they understand that 'drop' means good things happen when they give up the goodies they'll readily give over whatever they have stolen.

Here's the thing about guarding. If you cat/kitten was wild and didn't guard or protect their food they wouldn't eat. Because of this food protection has been reinforced in almost every animals genes over and over. It's a completely normal behavior as long as it's within boundaries.

To put another spin on it why don't you like it when your pet takes your stuff?* Because it's YOURS!* Now who's resource guarding? lol

Praline cats and dogs are similar in some ways. They are both carnivores, but usually not at the top of the food chain (wolves and dogs are NOT the same!), they have young that are largely helpless at birth and mature at about the same rate, they both learn through classical conditioning just like everything on Earth.
In other ways though they are very different. Dogs typically run in packs, they are very social and a lot of their behaviors stem from that. Cats usually are solitary, they can learn to live with other beings, and crave attention, but they aren't evolved to do this the same way dogs are.

So in some ways training can be used for both in the sense that they learn through classical and operant conditioning, and that they tend to have similar motivators (food, play, ect). However cats are not the same species as dogs, they have very different instincts in many ways, and it can be hard to remember and act on that when you live with both species. (or in my case work with one and live with another )


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

> To put another spin on it why don't you like it when your pet takes your stuff?* Because it's YOURS!* Now who's resource guarding? lol


Yeah, this kind of terminology bugs me. Everything gets reduced to automatic, mechanical functions: "Your cat strokes against you to blend smells" etc. We could reduce everything about humans that way too, but it would omit a lot of other relevant information about the situation, such as, sure, cats have that underlying, biological communication, but they're rubbing themselves against you because affection feels good. "Humans press palms against each other to indicate non-aggression" for shaking hands, or "Humans rub labial muscles against each other to confirm family ties" for mom and dad kiss each other.


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

I hear ya!

I am a huge fan of Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson as that is how my dog was raised and we have done so wonderful with that type of training and ..well... relationship.

I have been trying to "cross over" to the cat world using what I know about dogs. 

We are planning on our first official training tomorrow. I am hoping to charge our clicker and possibly get a "target" or two before stopping. They are so young that any positive reaction to the clicker will be a good day in my book!

That is something else I am noticing. My dog and I were always taught "focus" rather then "target" I am seeing cats ~ and a lot of dogs on youtube that are target trained. I prefer the "focus" as I might not always have a target handy. I use focus a lot when my Golden gets too excited out in public or is more interested in something he shouldn't be playing with LOL 

Do you prefer to target or focus when it comes to cats?


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

I do have issue with guarding behavior. I think it has the potential of being very dangerous and should be dealt with quickly in a positive and caring manner.

I like the "trade game" to prevent guarding behaviors. 

Here is a video that someone posted a few days ago. Makes my tea kettle go up in flames!!! The folks laughing and thinking its funny need a strong dose of reality :? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWjzCRC174&feature=player_embedded


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

yeah, I posted that heh


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

faithless said:


> yeah, I posted that heh


I told you how much that video bothered me. =(

I totally understand where Librarychick is coming from with guarding our own things. I do in every way possible look at things from my pets' point of view. 
At the same time, some things are acceptable in my home and some things are not. In my home guarding is not acceptable. This does not mean that when my dog shows signs of it (which he hasn't) I freak out and start punishing him for what he is doing naturally. I took a great amount of time playing games such as the trade game with him when he was a pup. I taught him before guarding became an issue.

There are many ways to shape and phase out this behavior if you take the time and lots of effort. I have seen it done. 

As pet owners we all have our "pet peeves". Some HATE dogs that dig. I encourage it in my Golden and he even has a sandbox :love2
For me Guarding is my pet peeve and something I am extremely careful about. Of course I have little niece and nephews that visit me regularly and 3 children of my own that are being raised with pets in the home. This might have something to do with why guarding is unacceptable for safety reasons :wink


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

You're right Praline, generally guarding isn't something to just brush off. Let me explain a bit better.

In this context I wasn't worried for a few reasons. Mostly it's a teeny weeny baby kitten. Actually. Muffin did a bit of food bowl guarding when he was little, I simply fed him apart from the others and he out grew it. Done.
At this age if it IS guarding then there's lots of time to work with it, and playing tug (or fetch) IMO is the best way to start with a very young animal.

In general though guarding isn't something I take lightly. I've worked with many dogs who had very serious issues with guarding and successfully brought them out of it.

Part of the reason I brushed it off in this case is a preventative. I can't tell you how many times I told someone to be careful about that mild guarding behavior with their puppy only to have them go home and practice alpha rolls and taking things away at random with no warning or training involved. This leads to bad things.

With all that being said I'm still not concerned in this case, OP don't be too worried. Just practice trading items for treats and you'll be safely out of the woods.

As a side note I DO allow some guarding in our house. If I give Jitzu a treat she is allowed to bop Doran on the nose if he tries to take it. If he persisted in trying to thief the goody I would step in and move him away as well as distracting him. All my cats have learned that they are allowed to have and protect some things as long as they only protest within certain limits. This did take a lot of initial work, but TBH I would be pretty ticked if one of my sisters tried to grab my brownie! It's understandable and natural.

When you have to be concerned is NOT at these base stages. The dog in that video has obviously been teased and confused to the point where it has interfered with his behavior patterns. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some sort of an injury as well. That isn't funny. Maybe the end result is interesting or funny, but when you think about what likely created that behavior the humor is gone.

I still don't see all guarding as always bad. yes your dog needs to be safe around children but it is equally, if not more, important that your children are safe around dogs. It's one thing to expect your family dog to tolerate a child in it's face and food dish, but to allow any child to do that puts them at risk when they are in another person's home or out in the world. This is what I call a "Two Part Problem" Deal with one part, good. But it's not solved. You have to deal with BOTH sides of the issue.

If anyone is dealing with true guarding issues, attacking, biting, serious threat displays, ect. please either contact me by PM or contact a behaviorist who is trained to deal with this issue properly. if you can't find a behaviorist but want to work with someone face to face look for trainers who use positive reinforcement and screen them! (I'll help if you need me to look at a website or provide questions to ask.)

(BTW the dominance post is up on my blog now )


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

I didn't see this before I replied...



praline said:


> We are planning on our first official training tomorrow. I am hoping to charge our clicker and possibly get a "target" or two before stopping. They are so young that any positive reaction to the clicker will be a good day in my book!
> 
> That is something else I am noticing. My dog and I were always taught "focus" rather then "target" I am seeing cats ~ and a lot of dogs on youtube that are target trained. I prefer the "focus" as I might not always have a target handy. I use focus a lot when my Golden gets too excited out in public or is more interested in something he shouldn't be playing with LOL
> 
> Do you prefer to target or focus when it comes to cats?


Both! But not at the same time, lol. I actually loaded the clicker while teaching touch (our word for target). Touch is such an easy thing to do that you can do them together. Just offer your target in front of the kitten face, when the reach out to sniff it click and reward. At that point they don't need to touch it completely, just moving towards it is a start.
Doran and Muffin both caught on within about 4 clicks, lol. Then they started trying to go behind me to look for the target when I hid it between cues. 

Definitely start with target first. With cats the hardest thing to do is to get them moving once they're stationary. I have this issue with Doran still. The first thing he learned was 'sit'. Now he has an awesome sit, and he's got a decent stay, but he won't go more than 2 steps to target! Muffin learned target first and he'll run across rooms and up furniture to target. He still has a good sit, but his stay needs work. (I've been a lazy mum on that one!)

Once they get target then you can work on focus. teaching target, especially to your shy kitten, will build confidence very quickly. Then once they have that confidence it'll be easier to get the focus ultimately.


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks for the help!

I was curious about so many cat clicker training I have seen on youtube with target. I never used it with my Golden... we went strait to focus first.

I have clicker trained my 15 year old cat ..errr.. when she wants to =p
She is a bit lazy and I have to pick times where she seems even remotely interested. Her stay is PERFECT ~ right on target. She can stay for hours and hours =/

I haven't seriously clicker trained her to do any behaviors beyond focus and sit, and stay (like I said SHE IS SPOT ON WITH STAY!!)

My daughter is familiar with clicker training and has even taken a class with our Golden. My trainer allowed her to take the beginner course. Even though Bentley knew what was going on, she didn't so it was a great course for her. 
My middle son actually used clicker training as part of a science project for school. He came in 3rd place. He clicker trained Bentley to fall over and play dead when my son shot him with his finger. He showed how he shaped the behavior backwards and everything. To this day it is still Bentley's favorite trick and he gets so happy and proud when he does it ~ all Golden smiles!

My kids know dogs and know to respect the animals in our home. But you are correct in the double teaching part. This doesn't mean every single child Bentley encounters have the same manners and in our society the dog is in the wrong period ~ no matter what. That is why I am so careful about guarding.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Keep us updated on how your training goes, maybe once they've got the basics down we can try another trick-a-long! I think more people would give it a go this time.

A good trick for teaching animals who aren't interested is to do it right before dinner  Works like a charm most of the time. Of course make sure you're using treats she likes, and keep up a high rate of reinforcement to keep her interested.

It's great to hear your kids are involved. It's so good for kids, and pets too, to play and learn together.


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

Issue one with sasha (my 15 year old cat) she is not food motivated AT ALL.
I am serious about this too. She weighs around 7lbs and is a Maine ****.
She is all fluff. We rescued her as an adult 11 years ago and I spent years begging and pleading for her to eat. I finally just realized that some cats aren't into food :?

The vet has always said she was healthy but on the thin side. I feed Wellness Core and do try and treat her with pieces of tuna. Dead serious ~ I can give her a can of regular people tuna, sit it right in front of her. She will take 2 or 3 bites and walk off :?


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a cat with 2 broken canines. I adopted her this way. At first, I could not figure out how she had broken her canines, but in time, it made sense. She is a tug of war junkie....very obstinate. I am afraid to continue to tug with her since she already had a mishap in the past so when she pulls I simply let her have the toy. She goes under a chair and then gets bored. I then collect the toy and we start playing again. she loves it and I feel secure I won't damage her teeth any more.


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## Furball (Jun 9, 2011)

I frequently used to play tug of war with the kittens years ago as a breeder. They used to love it and it would keep them entertained for a while. None of them ever got hurt but i was always very gentle with them just in case. You don't need to tug hard but shaking the item gently from side to side can be fun for young cats.

They're basically practicing their hunting instincts. It is instinctive and they all go through similar things at one point or another.

No need to worry, its all pretty natural


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## DellNec (Apr 19, 2011)

He got a hold of that toy that was the infamous tug of war toy. I went to take it from him (as it is yarn and I don't want him choking himself on it). He started to growl at me and even though I tried to redirect his attention to something else, it it did not work. 

He refused to let it go and kept growling at me. I squirted him with water and he let it go.


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

> He refused to let it go and kept growling at me. I squirted him with water and he let it go.


I always get warm and fuzzy when water boarding my 2 year old niece when she gets into my make up


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

I think this type of behavior may also be somewhat breed specific. I had something similar with Lacey also. We had just purchased a cute wand toy and could not wait to get home to play with her. I knew she would love it. As soon as we got home, we took out the wand toy and all the cats congregated and swatted at it. Lacey came in front and center and took over the toy and soon enough she was leaping in the air and having lots of fun. When playtime was over, she was still lunging for it with claws fully extended. She managed to clamp down on it and would not let go despite how much I shook it to get it loose from her jaw. She began growling and even if we raised the toy off the floor, she would not let go. It wasn't until we squirted her with water that she finally let go.

I just think orientals are very vivacious cats and some toys just stimulate their predatory instincts. Both still being kittens, they have not learned impulse control. It will get better in time, don't worry....lots of patience.

I play with the wand toy every now and again, but not for very long stretches, and I keep it close to the ground so she doesn't get too excited. I prefer the laser. It's still interactive and she gets to go crazy, but not hurt us in the process. Maybe when she's a bit older, she will be able to play with it and not go ballistic.


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## DellNec (Apr 19, 2011)

dweamgoil said:


> I think this type of behavior may also be somewhat breed specific. I had something similar with Lacey also.
> 
> It wasn't until we squirted her with water that she finally let go.


I put that toy away so that it doesn't illicit that response anymore. I did read that Siamese tend to be a little more hyper when it comes to that.


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## DellNec (Apr 19, 2011)

praline said:


> I always get warm and fuzzy when water boarding my 2 year old niece when she gets into my make up


Are you serious? You compare that to "water boarding"? 

:roll:


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## praline (Jun 3, 2011)

DellNec said:


> Are you serious? You compare that to "water boarding"?
> 
> :roll:


I had the same reaction when reading you used the "big guns" to punish a 2 month old kitten before teaching that the behavior was not acceptable. How did he know what he did was wrong? You have to show him before you start punishing. If you start with the big guns of punishment now on an infant what will you do in 10 months when the kitten is immune to the water? You will have to keep on escalating the punishments to "teach the cat".

I am not totally 100% against using water on a cat as a punishment when its something really really dangerous... such as chewing on a wire and I can't get to the kitten fast enough. Of course a better solution is to kitten proof the area but things happen. I save the big guns for the big crimes.

A much less stressful solution that works better for cat and owner (especially at 2 months old) is simply trade something more interesting with him. It takes 2 seconds and you don't even need to get the water bottle out


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## Furball (Jun 9, 2011)

DellNec said:


> He got a hold of that toy that was the infamous tug of war toy. I went to take it from him (as it is yarn and I don't want him choking himself on it). He started to growl at me and even though I tried to redirect his attention to something else, it it did not work.
> 
> He refused to let it go and kept growling at me. I squirted him with water and he let it go.


No need for that as i've already explained. Young cats do go through this its instinctive and its what they do. It's natural and they grow out of it.

Squirting water at any cat is IMO very cruel and to young cats its even more so.


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