# Kitty having big problems in new apartment



## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Hi! I posted a few weeks ago about getting married and bringing my 7-year-old cat, Zoe, into my husband's apartment. Well, the big move was last night, and it didn't go so well.

I know there are a lot of "kitty in new environment" threads, but I feel like Zoe is having so many issues, I don't know which to take care of first.

The car ride to the new apartment was over 5 hours long. Ten minutes into the ride, Zoe did #2 in her cat carrier, and did twice more over the course of the trip. She is pretty aggressive in general, and the cat carrier only made her more upset, so I didn't open it up and clean her out in fear that I would never get her back in there! So, when we reached the apartment, she was a dirty kitty.

I immediately wanted to clean her out and give her water and food, but I didn't want her getting her poopy paws all over the brand new apartment. So I brought her into the half-bathroom and closed the door while I let her out, cleaned out the carrier, and gave her food, water, and a clean litter box.

She would not leave the half-bath for 7 hours, and just hid behind the toilet. She still hasn't eaten or drank anything.

I finally closed her out of the bathroom and moved her necessities to the kitchen, and now she is cowering under the couch. I have a feeling she thinks the bathroom is her safe haven, which is entirely my fault. I didn't know she would cling to it like that, and I'm afraid to give her access to there now, in case she never comes out.

The one good thing is, as aggressive as she usually is, she hasn't hissed at or attacked me or my husband. If we hold our hands out, she will rub against them and sometimes purr, but she will NOT leave the places she's hiding under.

One last thing to mention - before my husband and I stopped by my mom's house to pick up Zoe for the 5 hour trip, my family had (with my consent) put a few drops of an over the counter cat "soother", I guess kind of a tranquilizer, in her water. She didn't drink all the water, but drank enough that she seemed a little sluggish when I first arrived at my mom's house. Is this something I should be using, or something really bad? I know nothing about it, but someone recommended it.

I would love to see Zoe relaxed, exploring the apartment, and drinking/eating. Any advice?

Thanks!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

The apartment is TOO BIG for her to get used to all at once! You need to put her in a small and quiet room. There needs to be food, water and a litterbox, but The Most Important Thing she needs right now...is a SAFE CAVE where she can hide and feel secure until she feels more comfortable with exploring her surroundings. 

Under a bed is fine, though I prefer to not allow them to be under furniture where I have no access to them, and I feel a bathroom with a towel-covered large cat carrier or large card-board box is best. ...both with fluffy towels* for comfort when laying in there. You want something that you can frequently and easily come visit to offer her food-treats and/or reach your hand in to pet, rub and reassure her that everything is okay. When she feels more confident and comes out of her 'safe place' to spend time with you is a good sign. Then she can explore her new room. When she is comfortable with that and begins to show interest in things beyond the door, offer her the choice of coming out with you to look around. You go with her; talking to her and petting her. At the first sign of anxiety, help her back to her safe-room and reassure her. Eventually, she will spend longer and longer out of the safe-room until she no longer needs to stay in there and has claimed the entire home as hers.
heidi =^..^=

*_I always put a soft/absorbent towel in the cat carriers when transporting cats to help them be comfortable and soak up any 'accidents'._


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## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Thank you so much, Heidi, for your advice. I will try placing her in a smaller room and giving her all of the essentials, plus some comfort items. I'll be back to tell how it goes.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh, that would be GREAT if you would keep us updated. Sometimes, the information you post can help other people in similar situations. The main thing is for the kitty to have a place where they think they are safe. The carrier or box needs to have a towel draped over it, with only a small-ish opening/gap at the bottom for them to go under, so they feel "enclosed" and "safe"...but you can lift to check on them and offer treats or loves.
I bet she will be comfortable in a short amount of time, especially if you are there to reassure her.
\h


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## gus (Aug 18, 2009)

Heidi n Q said:


> ...is a SAFE CAVE where she can hide and feel secure until she feels more comfortable with exploring her surroundings.
> 
> Under a bed is fine, though I prefer to not allow them to be under furniture where I have no access to them


little lion' like :arrow: cave! ... human however have to reach




Heidi n Q said:


> You want something that you can frequently and easily come visit to offer her food-treats and/or reach your hand in to pet, rub and reassure her that everything is okay.
> 
> You go with her; talking to her and petting her. At the first sign of anxiety, help her back to her safe-room and reassure her.


"You go with her; talking to her and petting her" looks like very important .. = atback 


I'm pretty new in the cat caring but ... maybe a new toy? :wink 

g


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Yup! Sometimes toys can work. They help to distract the kitty, get them comfortable playing and they then associate that comfortable feeling (playing) with being in the new place.
h


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## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks for the advice! Here's an update:

Zoe finally came out of her shell and has been exploring, eating/drinking, and even sleeping at the foot of the bed. I bought her a scratching post, catnip, some toys, and made her a little covered bed.

Now that she's more comfortable, though, she's not as nice. She still doesn't know my husband that well, and has hissed at him and scratched both of us multiple times in the past 2 days. We bought a squirt gun that we plan to use liberally, but I'm afraid that she'll never calm down and be friendly. She's really poorly socialized after knowing only me for 7 years.

She blocks doorways and paths in our apartment, and when we try to walk by, she screeches and claws at us. Is this normal for cats to go from being frightened and mild to suddenly very territorial in a new place? She changed like night and day.

Unfortunately, even when she was comfortable with me at my old house, she would still scratch me for no reason. Is it too late for a cat this old to learn to be nice?

I appreciate any help I can get. Thanks!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Wow, it sounds like Zoe is *not* very comfortable there yet...and I suspect you hit the nail on the head about her lack or socialization skills.

I believe almost all cats can be socialized. My work taming and socializing feral cats assures me that socializing a poorly-socialized housecat CAN be done, but it takes time, patience and persistence. Oh, and _NO negative reinforcement_ so that means you're gonna have to put the squirt bottles away if you want this to work, otherwise the squirt bottles will only reinforce her to keep her distance AND distrust you both, making your socialization efforts harder to achieve. Yes, there is a time/place for squirt-bottle aversion training, but this is not one of those times. 

The squirt bottle shouldn't ever be used to 'punish' a cat, only to 'deter' a cat from being about to do something, like punctuation coming at the end of a sentence it needs to be used as a last resort, as reinforcement to a known verbal command....like: "Get down!" and if the cat doesn't get down, pick up and shake or squirt the water bottle to reinforce your command and show the cat that you *can* make them listen from across the room. That isn't punishment, that is a reinforcement of your command without having to physically get up and go make the cat get down.

You need to both socialize her. You both need to be seen as The Bringers of Good Things. This means she needs to see you both offering her food treats, playing with her, feeding her regular meals and offering pettings/lovings for her to enjoy and then slowly step up the handling sessions. I have an intense program I put my cats through (_my own and the cats I foster for the adoption center_) that socializes them to all manner of things and they come through those experiences as calm and confident cats, _with slight variations due to individual personality_, but still a cat that can be handled by almost anyone. This what I feel Zoe needs.
h =^..^=


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## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Wow, thanks. I had no idea that squirting wouldn't be good. My husband stands very strong on the idea that we will not tolerate violence in our house, and that punishment for any attacking will cause her to either cease and be friendly, or avoid us, resulting in no attacking. I would rather not have Zoe fear him, though.

Do you have any advice on what to do after she attacks? Let's say there's no warning - no ears going back or growling or tail flicking - we just walk by and she grabs us and scratches/bites. Do we just yell really loud? Will that make her stop?

I'm not doubting your advice at all, just trying to get a better understanding of what our goal should be and how this will work. Thanks!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I want to first say that I completely understand your husband's "no violence" policy, and I think it is a good one to have. What I don't think is a good idea, is maybe the way he is thinking about achieving that goal, because if he uses aversion techniques on Zoe right now, she *will* learn and be conditioned to avoid people...and that really won't mean she'll have a good 'Quality of Life' living constantly on edge and trying to avoid the people in her home. All this will do is increase the probability of something negative happening whenever she *does* make contact with people. She needs to be shown how to behave in a family, not pushed away for not knowing how she should behave.
What I feel needs to be done, is try to make her an integral PART of your home, not exclude her.

This will be difficult for me to describe, mostly because it is a concept and also because I am not there to actually *see* how Zoe interacts with the people of her world.
Usually, a cat will give a warning...but some of those warning signals are very subtle, or the cat escalates from mild-to-wild without utilizing any of the middle steps that could have given warning and allowed us to back off. To break this type of cycle, I think it is going to require a bit of "love conquers all" sort of techniques.

First, here is a link to what I call my Kitty Cat Boot Camp.
There will be a lot of information here that won't apply to Zoe but the overall techniques and goals remain the same; working steadily with the cat in a consistent, persistent and patient manner, moving forward to attain improvement, but trying to keep all experiences positive, because the cat will learn to trust and grow with the positive experiences and negative experiences will set everyone back in the socialization process.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60586&p=605051

I have only encountered one cat who would attack without warning (_a neighbor's cat_) and I suspect that she did so because of a flea allergy that made her skin sensitive to touch, so when I would pet her she would over-react because of her sensitive skin and swipe/bite at me. She improved with me applying Frontline and by picking her up and handling her, never allowing her to approach me unrestrained until after I had worked her through some of the socialization and handling exercises. Her owner was elderly and didn't pet her, he only fed and cared for her, so she didn't know how to behave when being touched and I had to show her that being handled was a Good Thing.

Please, take some time and read through the KCBC. Mostly about how eye contact affects cats and how to firmly place the cat near/on you and handling her for short but frequent sessions, taking note of her attitude and if she relaxes and begins to enjoy and/or seek attention out. I also think play could be beneficial to her, help her get rid of any excess or pent-up energy and learn to relax and 'cut loose' when around you both.
Good luck, and I'll try to answer any questions you have so I can help Zoe integrate into the marital family...
heidi


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## Adam Hendersen (Feb 18, 2009)

Most Cats seem to hate car trips but mine LOVE IT, i dunno why they just curl up on the backseat and sleep. I've always found this weird :?


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey Heidi,
I'm SixthTambourine's husband, Steve, and I thought that it would be very beneficial for me to join the conversation and participate since I'm obviously very involved in Zoe's new home as well. I work a midnight shift, so I'm able to post here at night during work.

Anyway, I read through (and really appreciated) your KCBC thread and, a lot of it, while it doesn't directly apply to Zoe and us, is helpful in learning about cat psychology and how to interact with cats in general. I also really appreciate your advice on this thread in particular.

As my wife said, Zoe has always been a very aggressive cat, screeching and scratching people with little or no provocation; and moving to a new place with a new person after really only interacting with my wife really didn't help her attitude. We have a scratching board (the kind that's several layers of corrugated cardboard, and we occasionally sprinkle it with a little catnip) that she seems to be pretty fond of; a laundry basket with sheets and fluffy towels in it for a bed/cave; and a few mouse toys; all in a corner of our bedroom so she has a clear area to use as her personal sanctuary.
She does use the scratching board and the mouse toys, but she hasn't touched the bed we set up, so I was planning on picking up one of those "kitty cubes" on my way home from work this morning in hopes that she'll like that better.
Most of the time she hides under our couch or bed (the two are in separate, adjacent rooms), which is fine. We don't bother her when she's hiding. The main problem is that when she does come out, it's almost never to socialize with us.
When she's out of hiding, she often stands in a doorway, hallway, or other narrow space that we need to get through. When we approach it to try and get through, she arches, hisses, screams, and all-out attacks our feet if we take a step.
I'm convinced that these attacks aren't just because she's a mean cat: she feels threatened in some way, so I can never stay angry when she does it. I just have some serious problems (call it pride if you want) with having to adjust my daily activities in my own apartment just because the cat happens to be standing where I wanted to go.

Reading through the Kitty Boot Camp, it is clear that I do need to take a long amount of time socializing with her to ensure that she doesn't feel threatened by my wife and me moving about the apartment. The issue with that is that we have no idea how to go about your steps. Holding her is completely impossible. If I were to place my hand anywhere near her, even slowly, she will do one of several things:
Groan-hum (not quite sure what to call it; it's a closed-mouth sound, not quite a meow) and back away, hiss at me, and scratch.
In the cases that she does seek attention from us (usually in the morning when we wake up), she calls the shots of petting. She is VERY happy and affectionate during these times, rubbing against our hands and purring, but if I make the move to pet her, (again, I move slowly and steadily. I understand not to make sudden movements) she'll usually groan-hum and cower like I described above. It is for these reasons that I have no idea how we would go about socializing, because the first steps outlined in your KCBC involve touching right from the beginning.

As SixthTambourine (not sure if she's comfortable with using her name on the internet, so I'll call her that for now  ) said, we did buy a squirt gun and had planned to use it when she was standing in the way and hissing at us, but we have not found occasion to use it since the purchase, so your advice to put it away came just in time. What would you advise doing if she's standing in the way? The problem is not that she's showing no warning signs, she definitely is, but we do need to get past her in these cases despite the warning signs.
I was looking at it this way: As you said in an earlier post, the squirt gun is used as a command reinforcement tool. Do we give a command like "get out!", then if she doesn't move, squirt her (at least until she recognizes the squirt gun) / shake the squirt gun (after she recognizes it)?
Another alternative I was pondering is to pull out a laser pointer and distract her. She does often chase it to play, and she really enjoys doing it, but I haven't yet tried using it in these situations. Would that be a preferable alternative, or do you think that's evading the issue too much instead of dealing with it directly?

Another question I had is what to do during/after an attack. As my wife said above, sometimes she'll be sitting there peacefully and just attack when we walk by with no visible warning. You said not to use the squirt bottle to punish, but are we to do nothing after she scratches one of us? What about during an attack: do we just stand there and take it until she's done?
That's not as sarcastic as it sounds; I really am asking what you would advise since you know what you're talking about.

Whew. I'm sorry for such a long post; I'm just really ignorant on the subject. I've always been a dog person by nature, but I really am trying to come around and learn how to coexist with a cat. I do think Zoe has potential to be a loving companion in our home, and I really really want her to learn to love and trust me! Thanks so much for your help, and ST and I will be sure to keep you updated on Zoe's progress!


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## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Just posting on here to echo Steve's post. We weren't able to write together due to different work/sleep schedules, but I think he said it all more thoroughly than I could. We appreciate any advice!

Sixthtambourine, AKA Shelley :wink:


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Steve and Shelley, I am so glad you are both concerned about helping Zoe try to adjust. Her situation is severe and I've never encountered a cat such as she...I think Merry (Mitts & Tess) would have some good advice and I'll shoot her a PM.

I don't have much time right now, but I'll think about this and have a better formulated reply by this evening. 

First, No, you do not have to take it. Zoe is out-of-control and this is YOUR home. I think there is *something* that is bothering Zoe, and I'm not sure what it is, but we'll see if we can help her join the family. Because of her moaning and yowling that preceeds her more violent outbursts, this is a very serious problem. IMO, she should NOT be behaving in this manner towards people at all. If she is 'blocking' a pathway you wish to walk, you may want to toss a small towel at her to make her move and/or say "Move it!" and clap your hands or stomp your feet to make her move. At this point, I also think I would use the squirt bottle as a 'move it' reinforcement. I do not *like* using squirt bottles on confused cats that are having problems, but her behavior is dangerous and it needs to be stopped.

I'll pop in later tonight...
heidi


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I have been thinking of this all evening, and I must admit I am stumped. You are having to live your life around a cat who is behaving like a dangerous zoo or wildlife animal...never trusting it and trying to make it keep its' distance so it can't hurt you. What is puzzling, is she sometimes *does* like to have attention and at other times doesn't and/or quickly turns aggressive and reactive.

This is a home where the cat doesn't trust her people and the people don't trust their cat. 
You don't need me to tell you how grave this situation is.

Logically, perhaps the first thing to suggest would be a vet visit to rule out any medical or pain issues. The next thing would be to suggest "feliway" defusers, these plug-in products emit a cat 'calming' pheromone into the air that works on the cats' brain receptors, telling it that everything is fine and it can sometimes help a cat relax enough to learn to enjoy their surroundings. There is another product called "rescue remedy" that has been shown to be effective, too. Finally, we come to socialization and handling...

This is where it is going to be difficult to explain. She needs to learn how to allow herself to be handled. She cannot learn this unless you handle her. This could become The Critical Issue; either she learns to accept it, or she doesn't and remains an unhappy and dangerous cat in your home...and I'm sorry to say it, but she would also be a liability for yourselves, guests and any possible children you may have.
I think, if *I* were approaching this problem, I would try to keep every experience with her a positive one. I know that is going to be difficult at first, but I think you need to find a way to make her yield to you without scaring her or making her get defensive. Not giving her an opportunity to attack. I think I would try very hard to make every experience something that includes me being "A Bringer Of Good Things". Basically: bribery. I am feeling very wary of asking you to physically handle her...but at the same time, I know that if she does not GET handled, she won't learn how to BE handled. 
So...
Sturdy clothes to protect your body. Safety glasses if you think it could be *that bad*. Towel or blanket over your lap. When she allows petting and loving, I would slowly but firmly grab her and put her either next to me or on my lap, with her head facing AWAY from me. I would keep a scruff hold on her to keep her imobilized and/or under control and pet/rub her all over with my free hand. When I was done, I'd set her away from me and ignore her. No-big-deal. I would try to do that as often as I could. Some cats do *not* become imobilized with a scruff hold, and this may not work. If not, I really don't know what to suggest. Another difficulty is how you say she will attack if you reach for her and you may have a difficult time actually getting your hands on her to handle her.

Another method you could try, would be ignoring her. Completely. Make her *ask* for attention and stop giving her attention before *she* is ready for it to end. If she frightens or hurts you: yell! Let out a great big skelloch and say: "Ouch!", "That HURT you little booger!", "Stop it!". Maybe, when she starts in with her cat-moaning and yowling, YOU yowl right back at her. Or hiss! Cat's understand that a hiss means "leave me alone!", tell her to leave you alone in cat-language. Ignore her unless she is behaving nicely. Try "eye-blinks" to see what reaction she has. Try calmly 'humming' under your breath, like an "oh, ho-hum, hmm-emm-ummm-emm-hmmmmmmm". Sigh. The physical indrawn breath and relaxed body as you let out a sigh is a universal signal (_body language_) of non-threatening relaxation.

I am very sorry. I feel very inadequate trying to advise you through this situation, but I fear this is beyond me. I think it is going to require some delicate cat-reading, and that is something I can't do online or coach you on how to do. You may need to call in a cat behaviorist to come see the problem and make suggestions.
heidi


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## SixthTambourine (Aug 1, 2009)

Thank you for putting so much time into helping us, Heidi. We will definitely go over this together and try as many of these ideas as we can. I'm not expecting some miracle cure-all from the internet, just some strategies to help us live better. 

Luckily, Zoe has been a little better in the past day or two than she had been initially, and her slight progress leads me to believe that there's hope for her to change. Steve and I will try the things you have mentioned as we see fit and hopefully she'll make more progress.

Thank you again!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I hope she comes around, too. Please let us know how you're doing with her. You may find The One Thing that works and if you'd share it, it could help cat owners who come here with simliar problems. I know I'd enjoy learning something about how to handle kitties like this.
h


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Heidi,
Please don't feel so guilty! We both knew from the get-go that Zoe was an unconventional kitty and, as such, would need some unconventional care.
The advice above will be VERY helpful in figuring out how we should deal with Zoe, and Shell and I can't even begin to express our appreciation for the care you seem to have in our case.
Right now we already have been mostly employing an "ignore" tactic. Today I made a habit of never meeting her eye, or occasionally meeting her eye, then slowly looking away while slowly blinking. It did seem to make some kind of progress. She did, a few times, come over purring to seek attention when she realized that it wasn't going to come to her.
However, tonight, briefly before I left for work, she did block a path and hiss, so I grabbed a nearby blanket, shook it, and yelled "Move it!". This caused her to flee underneath our bed. Again, not necessarily a desirable outcome, but it did establish that I'm the boss, showed her that hissing at us won't get her what she wants, and diffused a situation that could have ended with a scratched leg.
Shelley and I have already been discussing at great length on G-mail chat about how to proceed. The first priority is definitely to see a vet so we can find or rule out any medical problems. According to Shelley she hasn't been to a vet since she got her shots as a kitten, which was about seven years ago. Depending on the results, I will then look into the chemical solutions you suggested. Shell and I will head to a local thrift store to pick up some thick, ratty clothes to use as scratch-armor, along with safety goggles. (and possibly a football helmet, haha.)
Shelley tells me that getting a grip on Zoe's scruff has proven to be difficult, so I'm prepared to be a bit rough with her to keep my grip, even while she freaks out, screams, and scratches. I'm assuming that I should not wear gloves so that I can pet her with my bare hand? That would be fine, I'm just making sure. I'm confident that as long as I sufficiently protect my wrists and above, I can take any amount of scratching on my hands.
Just this morning I did stop by the local Wal Mart on the way home from work and picked up Cream of Chicken soup and some precooked chicken breast (along with another laser pointer to play with her, a soft cube-cave-bed that she hasn't yet warmed up to, and a squeaking mouse toy on a stick and a string that she turned out to be afraid of.  I'll see if I can return it. ). I will start mixing your concoction so I can also try the bribery method to take her mind off of her territoriality when she decides to try and threaten us.
It's a slow night at work, so I've got all night to research local vets, along with the pheromones and other chemicals you suggested, so I can be as educated as possible about them.
You can be sure that we will stay consistent in the training, and I'm very committed to making sure that Zoe is a happy kitty who loves us!
Again Heidi, we can't express how much it means to us that you're taking such an interest in our case. We will be sure to return often (probably daily) and update you on Zoe's progress in this thread.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Dynmitrave said:


> (and possibly a football helmet, haha.)


First, this made me LAUGH!...because I thought to myself, "Hmmm, you may want a Hockey Mask." 8O 



Dynmitrave said:


> Shelley tells me that getting a grip on Zoe's scruff has proven to be difficult, so I'm prepared to be a bit rough with her to keep my grip, even while she freaks out, screams, and scratches. I'm assuming that I should not wear gloves so that I can pet her with my bare hand? That would be fine, I'm just making sure. I'm confident that as long as I sufficiently protect my wrists and above, I can take any amount of scratching on my hands.


I've had three cats that were difficult to scruff. Mostly, it was because they would hunch thier head down into their shoulders and I couldn't get a good grip on them. If I could get a scruff hold *before* they "prepared themselves", then I had a hold of them. However, all three were *very* resistent to the idea of being restrained in this manner. Two (_Blaze & Mister, both passed away_) would turn into screaming-chainsaws and the third (_LuckyDuck/Louie, currently about 5yrs old_) just gets very reactive and swipes with his claws in self-defense. 

Generally, if you can scruff the cat and keep their face and front claws pointed AWAY from you, you should not be in much danger. If the cat is facing you, the probability of them being able to latch onto your clothing/body and chainsaw climb right up your arms/torso/head is a dangerous probability. Gloves will be entirely up to you. I would maybe consider no glove on the scruff-hand for a secure hold and a thick glove on the petting hand, until you know how she will react. _I just had to do 10dys of antibiotics and a tetanus shot when I frightened my former feral by man-handling her to prevent her escaping outside and I reached my hand down to scruff her too slowly and she bit me._ 

I think, probably the most dangerous aspect of this enterprise will be...once you've got ahold of her...how do you safely let her go? With my ferals, I always look for signs of relaxation and when I let them go, I deliberately set them away from me and *very* close to their 'safe cave' so they will want to go there and not think they need to attack me to make me back off. I think this is where handling Zoe is going to require delicacy and finesse. I'd work very slowly into the handling part with her. Once she is better about being initially handled, then you can work on the 'smother them with handling until it is no-big-deal' part of the process.

...and I would LOVE to hear about your progress. It isn't that I feel guilty, it is just that I feel I have no experience to share, and since I have no experience in this particular area, I feel unqualified to give advice. I think I will be learning as much as you both...


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

No problem. As long as you don't think that petting her with a gloved hand would have a different effect from petting her with human skin, I'll grab a leather glove to try and avoid any more scratches than are necessary. I'm also going to be making a doctor's appointment very soon for myself for an unrelated issue, so while I'm there I'll make sure that my tetanus vaccine is current, and I'll have my beautiful bride know to do the same, even though I plan on doing the handling until she calms down enough that it's no longer as much of a risk. I'd rather not put her in danger if I can do it instead.
I think the approach I'll take is to armor-up, then start ignoring her. I'll go about normal activities (playing videogames :wink: ) while wearing the heavy cloth and goggles, and with a towel in my lap, while humming gently and sighing exaggeratedly. If my nap yesterday morning after work was an indication, she should eventually come over to me to seek attention, which is when I'll strike, so to speak. 
The scruffing thing itself is what's generating the most questions for me I'm afraid. I just want to make sure that I do it right when I finally attempt it.
You said slowly but firmly. If she sees my hand coming toward her and backs away, should I speed up and grab her? Do you think I have a chance of being faster than a cat with sleight of hand? I kind of think it's unlikely. I guess what you mean is to wait until I can get my hand on her back without her suspecting, in the course of normal petting, then grab? Do I lift her entire weight by the scruff to get her onto the towel on my lap, or do I try to pilot my other hand past her pointy, no-doubt-by-that-point-wildly-thrashing defenses to get my other hand on her belly to help lift?

Also, I wanted to ask about the humming you've been telling us to do. I understand that it's to be under-the-breath and quiet, but is there a certain pitch I should try to favor? I know that dogs react better to higher-pitched sounds, but does it matter for a cat? Should I just hum at a normal pitch for my voice, or should I go lower or higher than usual?

And one more: "Try 'eye blinks' to see her reaction" - does that mean to take a chance to look at her then use the slow blinks to divert the gaze, or does that mean some other technique?

I know I'm sounding a bit excessive with all the questions; but again, I'm just trying to understand as MUCH as I possibly can about the subject, and make sure that I know EXACTLY what it is I should be doing.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I'll answer from the bottom up...

Eye blinks: Catch their gaze and smile with closed mouth (no teeth ~ that looks aggressive and threatening at this point) so your eyes 'smile', too and just sort of casually slide your gaze away. Catch her gaze and slowly blink your eyes at her, and see if she will blink her eyes or casually look away. This is a body-language 'thing' for: I don't feel the need to watch you closely and I trust you enough to *not* watch your every move.

Humming: I just 'hum'? I sort of do it as a sigh...inhale and start out the humming in a slightly higher pitch and as I exhale I slowly sing-song hum 'down the scale' until I end in a long, drawn out and deeper toned hum at the end. You just don't want to end the humming on a high note, as that appears to be a question, and you want to convey calm, confident and relaxed.

Lifting: I believe only very small kittens should be lifted with only a scruff hold. As the kitten grows and weighs more, the pull on the scruff can damage and tear underlying connective tissue. To lift with a scruff hold, see if you can get the free hand under the cat's chest/belly to help support it. If the cat is clawing around, scoop the free hand under the buttocks to assist with the lift and that will also sort of control the back legs if you can grab them loosely with your hand and use your forearm under the rump to support the cat's weight.

Getting her in the scruff hold: This will be tricky. I think you need to do this when she isn't aware that is what you *want* to do. If she is set up to react, do not pursue it. You don't want to give her a reason to misbehave. Sort of setting her up for success and not falling into any of the pitfalls that will make her fail, like reaching for her when you see her backing away, ears flipping forward and back, looking around to see where she plans to escape to and/or moaning, growling or yowling.
My slowly-but-firmly is meant more of a don't dab your hand at her hesitently sort of thing; Do it, be matter of fact about it, and then be done with it. Try to make everything Not A Big Deal.
When I scruff my kitties, I like to begin my petting their head, slowly running my hand down their head to their neck/shoulder area and then scruffing. With Zoe, you may not have the opportunity to do this, and you may have to 'just grab' her any old way you can. I don't think that is ideal, but again...you can't get her used to handling if you don't put your hands on her.

How about, instead of moving right into handling right now...you work on trust. Give her the eye-blinks, hums and sighs... Offer to play with her, dragging strings, waving toys on wands/line and the laser dot. Offering bribe-treats. ...then once she is more comfortable about approaching you, then you could slowly work into the handling? The more I think about it, I am feeling that is probably the right way to approach her. Let her learn she can trust you both for Good Things, but also that if she gets out of line (_yowling/growling_) there will be consequences; "Move it!" and shaking the towel/blanket or using the squirt bottle to keep her from 'blocking' areas you need to walk through.


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Okay, I'll work on those things first for a while before moving into handling. I guess when I get home I'll cook up some cream of chicken soup with chicken!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Good luck! ...and have some diced tomato and shredded cheese handy. That chicken mixture is GREAT in a flour tortilla! :wink 

...and on that note, I need to do evening chores and put the kitchen to rights before I head to bed...
h


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey there,
I chopped up some white meat chicken into tiny bits, mixed it into a can of cream of chicken soup, and slathered it on my hand, but Zoe was completely uninterested in it. I made sure that she wasn't in a bad mood or anything, and gently held out my hand while avoiding eye contact. She took a couple sniffs, groaned a bit, and backed away. Do you think it's because she doesn't trust me enough to eat out of my hand, or could she just not like cream of chicken soup?
A few minutes after that (and after rinsing the gunk off my hand) I did pull out a laser pointer and a wand toy, and she had a lot of fun playing. At least I have one way of bonding with her, but it would be nice if I could figure out a food that she absolutely can't resist so that I can coax her to eat out of my hand.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

It sounds like she just isn't ready to be that close to people yet. :? 
I am surprised she refused the chicken mixture, but what I find most telling is that she backed away and groaned. I *think* this 'groan' noise is probably more of a pre-yowl, done with the mouth closed and it indicates extreme discomfort, fear or anger. I don't think she could have been mad, and probably not in any pain...so that leaves fear or being extremely unsettled and frightened. I think you'll just have to work on trying to get her to enjoy things in your proximity. Feed her (_canned meals_?) and be in the same room. Try the chicken mixture on a plate and shove it close to her, but you stay in the same room as she checks it out and eats it. Same with little crunchy-treats like "Greenies". Over time have her need to come closer and closer to get those treats. You'll still need to watch her to evaluate what her comfort level is, but I think it is just going to take a lot of time to get through to her...

On another note...I was able to speak with Mitts & Tess via PM and she read through this thread and has offered to speak to some of her best foster people who work with kitties like this and get back to us. She said I was mostly on the right track, but felt I was missing some key areas (_so I was *right* when I said I felt unqualified because I'd never encountered this_!) and she would either relay the info or invite those people to join and offer their advice.

In the mean-time, here is a link to LittleBigCat's library of articles. Poke around and read the ones you think may apply, just for more tips and cat psychology.
http://www.littlebigcat.com/?action=library
Here is a link to MuttCats. You may also find something in their advice that works for you and Zoe.
http://muttcats.com/articles/taming_ferals.htm


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Okay, I'll definitely read through the links you posted. Thanks!

The "groan" to which I've been referring, as you've said, doesn't seem to indicate anger. It does kind of indicate to me, in conjunction with reading her body language, that it's some kind of discomfort without necessarily full-on fear.
Probably the best way I can describe the noise using text is... imagine a high-pitched, rolled "R" like in the Spanish language, but with your mouth closed, and never too loud. If that's the same noise that you've been thinking of, then you're probably right.
Shelley has told me before that the noise is not always used in these contexts though, that it's kind of "Zoe's way of talking". I haven't witnessed this, but Shell says that Zoe will make the noise when she's perfectly content, just sitting without being bothered, often when Shelley's talking on the phone in the same room, to participate in a conversation as if Shelley were talking to her. (My above clause "I haven't witnessed this" doesn't mean that I doubt her, I only said that to emphasize that I can't quite sufficiently describe it since I haven't seen it first-hand.)
I do have the mixture in the fridge, so I'll put some on a plate and put it near her while I sit on the bed and play Pokemon or nap. I'll let you know what I observe.
As for the canned food you mentioned, Shelley told me that she has tried giving Zoe canned food, but her stomach wasn't able to handle it, so she vomited it up. That could be something to look into at the vet.
I made an appointment at a Petsmart vet tomorrow (oh wait... today) at 4PM, so we'll be able to find out if there are any medical issues bothering her that could add to the situation.

Oh, by the way, should I warm up the mixture in the microwave first or anything like that? I didn't know if most cats tend to enjoy warm food or cold better. She refused it cold, and I didn't try warm.

And one more question that Shell and I were curious about - when we leave the bedroom that we've closed Zoe into as her smallish area, does it tend to make an emotional difference on the cat whether we leave the light on or not? We've been turning the light off, assuming that it wouldn't make a difference since cats are nocturnal anyway, but I wanted to make sure in case it was something we should be doing differently.
Thanks!


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

One more thing, sorry!
This afternoon when we take Zoe to the vet, we have to figure out a way to subdue her and get her into the carrier. Do you have any tips on the least traumatizing way to do this? We were planning on kind of "capturing" her with a towel, like a net, to keep her wrapped up so we can get her inside without her straddling the sides of the carrier opening, then the towel would form a softer, more comfortable covering for the floor of the carrier when she got out of it inside the carrier.


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## Reina465 (Aug 10, 2009)

For my cats I hold the crate vertical and my S.O. gently places the cat inside. That way I don't have my cat feeling the stressful struggle to get pushed in. And to soften the issue put a towel at the back so when you hold it vertical she lands on a soft towel.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Zoe's "language". Some cats *are* talkers and will use many different sounds. Some just meow, others 'trill', a few make short squeaks, some string long 'sentences' of various sounds together and others mutter and chatter when they talk. You are right that body language can tell you a lot about what a cat is 'saying' and I think perhaps her communication with you is conveying a bit more uncertainty than any true fear. I think she just needs to learn she can trust you. 
I'm sort of excited/anxious to hear what Merry and her rescuers advise...I'm all primed to LEARN! :lol: 


One of our cats was TERRIBLE about being put in a crate. But if I put it on the floor and all the kitties came to check it out...he was right there sniffing it with the others. And if I opened the door just in time for *his* curiousity, he would step right in and I'd quietly close the door behind him and then he'd turn around, crouch down and GROWL.
Trying to physically put him in one, grew worse and worse each time we tried. I eventually had to resort to a harness/leash to carry from home to car and car to vet-office as the carrier was a definite no-go. Luckily, he did okay traveling loose in the car but that is NOT something I recommend. I only did it because my vet office was just 3mi from our house. 2mi on the hwy and 1mi through town and maybe 3 stoplights.

Mister would howl, yowl, growl, hiss, slash and bite if you tried to get him in a carrier. The last few times we had to crate him, we wrapped him up in the towel, still trying to get a scruff-hold of him because a cat can bite through a towel and 'get' you. Then we'd wrap him up in the towel and stuff him down a carrier that was propped so the door was at the top. By the time Mister got himself unwound from the towel, the door already would have been closed and he had the towel to sit on. I always use an absorbent towel in our carriers.

Food-wise, cats appear to prefer 'smelly' foods, and in that respect, warm releases more delicious smells. I will warm small fridge-cold items for may 10-15 seconds in the microwave and give it a quick stir. Usually this amount is no bigger than a tablespoon. With Zoe, I think I'd use teaspoon sizes. After it has been established that the cat likes that type food, then I sometimes offer it cold, thinking of it as 'kitty ice cream'. I've noticed our cats will eat it cold, though they do take more time over eating it instead of scarfing it down.


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Okay Heidi, I will try smaller portions, warmed up a bit. I put some on a plate earlier today, set it down, walked away, and went to sleep. Five hours go by, I think she may have sniffed it, but none whatsoever was gone. I think that I may have used too much, so I'll try using very tiny bits.

Just an update:
We knew that there was no way that she would go near a carrier on her own out of curiosity, and by the time we were trying to plan something, Zoe's intuition took over and she knew that something was up. She got in the deepest possible point under the bed and wouldn't move.
With great difficulty (me having to shoulder-lift the bed to expose Zoe out from under it, then Shelley grabbing her) we managed to get her into the carrier and to the vet. (Yowling the whole way. Luckily it was only a ten minute drive.) He ruled out the "usual suspects" for feline aggression (brain tumors, liver problems, and some others) then took the steps to determine that she wasn't in any kind of pain. After a few vaccinations, he recommended a very small amount of OTC Benadryl in liquid form, administered about every 12 hours, apparently to serve as a really mild anti-depressant.
On a side note, we were very pleased with how well-behaved she was in the vet's office. She calmly stood there and seemed to kind of normally wander around and sniff things as if she wasn't scared at all. And, as an added benefit, I was able to learn by watching the vet and his assistant successfully scruff Zoe and to see that it does, in fact, work. 
We'll be picking up some of the Benadryl to use in conjunction with, once they arrive, the two Feliway diffusers that I ordered online to ubiquitously fill the apartment.

Also, I plan on spending a few hours with her a day, playing with her whenever she's in the mood, but tonight it seemed like she just wanted to be left alone after the trauma of the carrier and the vet. We did attempt a couple things to see if she wanted some company, like shaking the wand-string toy, zipping the laser around, and sprinkling a little catnip, but she didn't move. I think it'll be at least until tomorrow that she forgets enough of this afternoon to want to play.
We do have to take her back in three weeks to get a booster, so hopefully we'll at least make a little trust progress and not completely negate it again when we put her in the carrier once more.
More updates on Zoe to come!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Wow! I think the vet appointment sounds like it went amazingly well. Many times, cats *do* behave better in unfamiliar places because they don't feel as secure there, like they do at home where they've got "the lay of the land" already figured out. Very good to hear she is healthy and with no obvious problems. The benedryl should help to mellow her out, it always makes me feel sleepy. If you check out the Health/Nutrition Forum, there is a sticky post about "how to restrain a cat for medications". Several members have contributed what works for them and among that information you should be able to find something that works. As for the chicken...while it seems strange to me (_our cats will circle us like a shark feeding-frenzy for chicken/turkey_) I guess it isn't improbable that some cats may not like it. You may need to experiment to find the treat she goes ga-ga over.

Now, I wanted to comment about her demeanor this evening...
I don't think her solitary attitude is so much the trauma of the vet-visit as it is most likely a slight reaction to the vaccinations. Even with the killed viruses, while the cat's body does build their antibodies, it *is* sort of like getting a mild dose of whatever that vaccination was for, so their body will produce the anti-bodies. She may not feel 100% for a few days after vaccinations. She may react very mildly or she may sleep more than usual for several days. Just something to be aware of, its normal.
h


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Ah, okay, that makes sense. In any case, we did decide to just let her hide for tonight without being bothered beyond a no-pressure offer of a toy or two in case she was in the mood to play a bit.
We let it go for tonight since we figured she was a bit traumatized (or reacting to the vaccines, either way we wanted to be sensitive until she's herself again), but the next time she's out from under the bed, I think we're going to get some storage containers and fill the entire under-the-bed space so she can't hide there anymore. You were right about avoiding inaccessible caves. Having her in a place that we can get to her goes a long way for trust building, and there are times that we NEED to have access to her for her own good, like getting her to the vet.

While I'm on the subject, she hasn't entered the kitty cube I picked up for her at all. 
Reference: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... d=10313600
I have it set up in the corner where she does seem pretty comfortable laying (at least the times that she's not hiding under our bed), where we also have the scratching post and the toys, but she just doesn't seem to want to use it as her cave, or even take a step inside. Rather, she has been favoring places like behind toilets and under furniture, so we've been keeping the bathroom door closed and like I said, are planning on using boxes to block the bed.
Do you think it's a good idea to remove any other possible hiding place like that, and force the cat bed on her, or will it have some kind of adverse reaction?

Yes, the vet visit did go really well. I'm really happy that I learned so much, and while it turned out that Zoe's behavior can't be blamed on a medical problem and treated scientifically, it is great to be sure that she's a healthy kitty, not to mention that the vaccinations alone would have made the trip worth it.

I will also be sure to read up on the medication restraint post. Thanks a lot for referencing it! It sounds like exactly what I will need to know.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I've been following this thread since the beginning. Kind of a private conversation feel to it, didn't want to interrupt.....but, Heidi *is* our "cat whisperer" so you've been in great hands.  

I just wanted to add that I bought one of those cat cubes and my twins used it the first weekend they came home and never again. It has sat in their bedroom for two years. I see them for free on Craigslist all the time, so don't feel bad.

If you have a big box, maybe you could turn it on its side or even cut a little opening and put it upside down on a blanket. Cats seem to like the boxes the toys and stuff come in, but not so much the products. Kids! What are you gonna do? 

When I take Cinderella to the vet, I close my bedroom door behind me so she can't get under the bed. Unfortunately, she knows what that means now.


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Marie,
Please don't be afraid to participate! In case you haven't noticed, we need all the help we can get for Zoe!
Thanks so much for the tips on the cube. Perhaps I'll return it. I should have the receipt around somewhere, and it's not like it smells like cat, since no cat has ever set foot in it.
We did have a smallish laundry basket before the cube that we lined with a sheet and a couple towels, but she wouldn't go in there either. We later tried standing it on its side, but no luck.
I'll be sure to find a cardboard box and see if that works. Thanks!


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Oh, heck, I was just kidding about that! I usually bow to Heidi when it comes to behavior. And nutrition. And ferals. 

And breeding. But Heidi had me fixed, so I'm good.  

They'll hide in the strangest places. I have one of my litter boxes inside a bigger wooden box, lined inside and out with carpeting. Cleo hides inside the box between the litter box and the wooden box. 

Couldn't find her anywhere, and I finally see her little golden eyes peeking out from behind the box.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh, yes! The more people providing hints, tips and suggestions the better! It would stand to reason that _someone_ may have The Magic Technique that helps Zoe and one person cannot know everything. I'm not ashamed to admit I am still learning, every day.
It almost seems like Zo wants to have plenty of 'escape routes' in the selection of her 'hiding areas'. In that respect, definitely try to block under the bed. You can allow her to get under the edges, but block the area in a "T" shape so she can only hide under the outer edges of the bed-skirt and not up against the wall. Maybe do something similar with the couch? And if you offer her a box, be sure to put two holes in it so she feels she has a choice and an extra opportunity to avoid/escape? There will be time later to limit her choices, but for now, maybe cater to at least a few of them...?


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Multiple escape routes. Okay, I'll get creative with a box cutter, and maybe move the location of the box out of the corner so there CAN be two directions for her to go.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

marie73 said:


> And breeding. But Heidi had me fixed, so I'm good.


 :lol: PLEASE! That is *not* what it sounded like! :lol: 
..._and don't listen to anything Marie says about how I like to paint walls with my friends_... 
Shhh! *whispers* Marie has a fondness for Bailey's Irish Cream */whispers* Nevermind that I like B'sIC, too
:lol:


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Heidi n Q said:


> Shhh! *whispers* Marie has a fondness for Bailey's Irish Cream */whispers* Nevermind that I like B'sIC, too
> :lol:


Try adding one part Bailey's with a splash of vodka to two parts chocolate milk.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

OMGosh! That sounds wonderful!


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Yup, it has quickly become my favorite drink.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Something you invented? Did you name it? 

Sounds like *Heaven*!


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm afraid that I can't take credit for it; it's something a former roommate made for me, while himself quite intoxicated. I don't drink that much, and apparently he was trying to "teach me" in his drunken ways. I gratefully accepted the drink and slowly sipped it over a game of Rock Band in the basement while he was stumbling around on the back patio attempting to throw darts at what amounted to a very expensive slab of corkboard.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I googled it, and it sounds like a Bailey's White Russian, but with chocolate milk instead of regular. Yummmm!

Poor corkboard. 8O


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

http://www.dartboards.com/electronic-da ... letech.cfm

Poor corkboard indeed.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Dynmitrave said:


> Heidi n Q said:
> 
> 
> > Shhh! *whispers* Marie has a fondness for Bailey's Irish Cream */whispers* Nevermind that I like B'sIC, too
> ...


Sounds like I've got another addition to my "Treat" of Bailey's and Hot Ovaltine before bed. Woot!


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

So, a quick update:

I think Shelley and I are making small progress with Zoe already. Today (yesterday if you're looking at the date of the post) she was really well-behaved. I'm totally jinxing myself for saying this publicly, but I was awakened this afternoon (I sleep late-morning to mid-afternoon since I work nights) by a purring, fluffy kitty accompanied by a smiling wife. Shelley and I spent a good half hour or more petting her (even when we made the move to pet!), holding her (only Shelley picked her up, I don't think I'm quite at the trust point with her yet to try holding her at the risk of losing progress), and playing with her. At no points during the day did she show any signs of aggression; just the usual nervousness and skittish-ness when one of us was walking by or performing an activity at a pace faster than we usually use when directly dealing with Zoe. She did hide under the bed (we still haven't gotten around to blocking off that space yet) for a decent chunk of time as usual, but I think it is becoming gradually less.

However, we can't make a full judgment based on one day's observation, so we'll keep doing the same things we're doing - sitting in the same room as her while humming or talking; playing whenever she's in the mood; and gently initiating touching, pushing her discomfort limits a bit, but not making her overly upset by it.

Within the next few days we'll be administering Benadryl and setting up the Feliway diffusers when they arrive, with close observation. I'll be sure to update you on anything we notice!


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Sounds great, congratulations. Baby steps.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Yay! That sounds wonderful and like you have a great First Step to build on. Awesome news!

Oh, Mitts & Tess told me some of her Master Rescuers are joining and awaiting Admin-approval before they can post. M&T hinted that they would have even *better* info for us all and I can't wait! She told me their screen-name, but all I can remember of it is it starts with AZ... Ooomph, I've got a terrible memory for anything that isn't an animal. :wink


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## Dynmitrave (Sep 3, 2009)

Great, I'm looking forward to it!


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## kittycatuk (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi, I'm just wondering how this turned out for you, as I'm going to be in a similar situation soon, though not quite as extreme.. I hope you managed to work things out with Zoe!


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Heidi n Q said:


> The squirt bottle shouldn't ever be used to 'punish' a cat, only to 'deter' a cat from being about to do something, like punctuation coming at the end of a sentence it needs to be used as a last resort, as reinforcement to a known verbal command....like: "Get down!" and if the cat doesn't get down, pick up and shake or squirt the water bottle to reinforce your command and show the cat that you *can* make them listen from across the room. That isn't punishment, that is a reinforcement of your command without having to physically get up and go make the cat get down.


This is one of my pet peeves.  This IS punishment. Punishment is anything that tends to decrease the likelihood of something happening in the future. 

The tenets of operant conditioning (how we ALL learn):

Positive (to add) punishment is anything aversive (unpleasant, bad, etc.) that, when added, will (or is intended to) tend to decrease the likelihood of someone from doing the behavior again. Example: Spraying cat with water.

The biggest problem with positive punishment is that in order to do it "right" you have to have IMPECCABLE timing and almost no one has that all or even most of the time. Additionally, punishment has been shown to SUPPRESS behavior, not do away with it entirely. That behavior may actually resurface in another area (redirected aggression, etc.). It can also make the subject afraid of or avoidant of the punisher (this almost always happens to some degree).

Negative (take away) punishment is anything that, when removed, will (or is intended to) tend to decrease the likelihood of someone from doing the behavior again. So it's the removal of something GOOD. Example: Kitten nips your hands when you're petting; you remove your hands and stop interacting w/ the kitten. He only gets attention when he doesn't bite. 

Negative (take away) reinforcement is the removal of something unpleasant to increase the likelihood of the behavior happening again. Example: Harder to find in cat world than dog world--in the dog world, the old-fashioned and cruel "ear pinch" method of teaching an obedience retrieve is the best example. Note that in order to REMOVE something aversive, that aversive thing has to be ADDED first. Just b/c something is "reinforcement" doesn't make it good!

Positive (to add) reinforcement is the addition of something good that tends to increase the likelihood of the behavior happening. Example: Kitty scratches post -- you praise. Kitty sits--you give treat. 

Basically, my goal in animal training is to stick almost entirely with positive reinforcement (reinforcing good behavior by adding something good or desired that the animal likes), with a smidgen of negative punishment (withdrawal of something desired to punish bad behavior) thrown in. Neg punishment (withdrawal of attention primarily) has its place, but the goal is, or should be, to avoid eliciting the undesired behavior in the first place. We do this (1) by reinforcing so much alternative GOOD behavior that the undesired behavior doesn't have a chance to show itself, and (2) by managing the animal's environment so that he doesn't have a chance to DO the undesired behavior.

That's probably more info than anyone wanted, LOL. 

A good link on all this:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/



> You need to both socialize her. You both need to be seen as The Bringers of Good Things. This means she needs to see you both offering her food treats, playing with her, feeding her regular meals and offering pettings/lovings for her to enjoy and then slowly step up the handling sessions.


Excellent advice.  The key really is to focus on the behavior you eventually want to see, figure out what baby steps there are between where you are and where you want to be, and then go step by step. You may have 100 steps or 100,000, depending on the animal, the behavior, the trainer's experience, etc. Go slowly and positively reinforce your brains out!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Psych. 101 works better in an academic setting than with animals. I don't have or want a spray bottle, but I will use my voice to teach and to praise.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Jeanie said:


> Psych. 101, works better in an academic setting than with animals.


Never took Psych 101--just a lot of animal training very MUCH in the real world.  In fact, operant conditioning is how we ALL learn, whether we realize it or not. Money, for instance, is a conditioned reinforcer (like a clicker or any word that has been conditioned to mean "you done good"), that stands in for what we can get with it (food, etc.).

IMO one of the best books anyone can read in life is Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog (LINK)

It's not about dog training, really -- but about using positive reinforcement in all aspects of life. I find that a whole lot easier to do w/ animals than with people, LOL, but I do try.  Karen's book makes you think differently about a lot of things. The first edition, back in the 1980s (!!!) is what inspired me to first try teaching my obedience dog the retrieve using entirely positive reinforcement -- I was the only one I knew not using the "ear pinch" method, and I was the only one I knew whose dog (a beagle no less!) had a completely reliable and absurdly joyous retrieve in the ring. That experience changed everything about the way I think about training, caused me to get very involved in learning more about operant conditioning from some of the best animal trainers out there, and, really, changed my life. 

And who said you couldn't use your voice? Of course you will. ??


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Hoofmaiden, I am not uninformed. I am a teacher who worked with special needs children and "normal children", a breeder who trained and showed her dogs, and I have bred, raised, and trained all of my pets for more years than I care to remember. I have never pinched a dog's ear, and never saw a colleague do such a thing. I also have four children whom I often found "being good," who were raised with love and kindness...and who have also been disciplined. Please don't assume that the rest of us are not experienced or knowledgable. 

My point is that we do not have to be taught basic fundamentals. I am, we all are, "in the real world." We read and we _share._ It's quite effective.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Hoof, I appreciate you sharing your techniques. They are different from what I have always done, but since they have *worked* for you and they *do* appear to give consistent positive results, then I think that is wonderful and worth exploring this new avenue towards better communication with our kitties. It gives me an opportunity to learn something new, so thanks for sharing.

*I clicked the link*
The reviews sound AWESOME, though they say they are out of stock. I may have to give my local book store a call and request/order a copy.
Thanks for what looks to be a great resource...
heidi =^..^=


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Jeanie said:


> Hoofmaiden, I am not uninformed. I am a teacher who worked with special needs children and "normal children", a breeder who trained and showed her dogs, and I have bred, raised, and trained all of my pets for more years than I care to remember. I have never pinched a dog's ear, and never saw a colleague do such a thing.


That's great! I wonder if you are younger than I am, maybe? Or perhaps your friend showed in breed, not obedience? Until as recently as 10 years ago, MOST competitive obedience dogs were, sadly, trained using the "ear pinch" method and other aversive techniques, although often it was done behind closed doors.  I certainly never did it, and if it had meant doing it, my dogs just never would have competed in Open (where the retrieve is first required). I was thrilled to find a "new" way--using all positive reinforcement to train much of anything in competitive obedience was really considered WAAAAY out there in 1985, that's for sure. Even the wonderful trainer I worked with then (who was one of the few successful competitors at the time NOT using the ear pinch) didn't think it would "work" do train the retrieve as I did -- he had to eat his words, LOL!

It's a whole new world these days. It's funny, really, to see that the very people (i.e., Big Name obedience competitors) who dissed clicker training and all other positive methods in the 80s and 90s are now ALL ABOUT it! Interestingly, it all kind of trickled UP -- those of us who had "non-obedience" breeds (like beagles, Airedales, etc.) were willing to take the "risk" and step out of our comfort zone, b/c we had nothing to lose, whereas the people who were established w/ big fancy reps (esp. those working w/ breeds who didn't shut down when trained aversively) were not. Now they've co-opted it! I'm THRILLED that they have, but it is kinda funny.

Anyhoo, if you know all that stuff, that's great! Not everyone does though, and I know how much it helped me years ago.


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