# Why no mixed breeds?



## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

I've had this thought reoccuring to me everytime I read one of these "what type of cat is this" threads.

I understand "no papers=not purebred". Even dogs that are most likely purebred at the shelter's are considered mixes since there are no papers to prove otherwise, but why is it with cats it's then just a DSH or DLH? In dogs there are lab mixes, or pit mixes, or shepard mixes. You can tell that a certain breed is in there so it's a mix of that breed. My Guinness for example is a lab mix. On most dog forums, including the sister site to cat forum, if someone posts a pic of a dog and ask what it is, people will respond with "it looks like it's probably a corgi-mix, hound-mix or sheltie-mix"
Why in cat's don't people claim siamese mix, or persian mix, ect....?

Just wondering
Jennifer


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## Padunk (Oct 20, 2003)

In my personal opinion it's because dog breeds are so much different than cat breeds. (and different dog breeds actually do have differences in personality, unlike cats.)

I call Punky a siamese-mix because it's quite obvious (who knows? she could even be purebred.), but any combination of cats can turn out a kitten that looks Maine **** or another type of breed. I could technically call Elly a siamese-mix, but you'd never know that by looking at her. I saw her mother and she was half-siamese.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's too much of a crapshoot with cats. Your average mutt dog varies much more than your average mutt cat.


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## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, there are "mixed-breed" cats. I've seen plenty of references to them here and elsewhere. I guess the thing is, they don't really have any more value than a moggie. You could mate a prebred Japanese Bobtail with a prurebred Siamese and have a mixed-breed cat. But as far as what you end up with, it wouldn't be of any significance to the CFA.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

That's not what I'm asking Tim.
I was wondering why, if someone posts a picture of a cat that has a clear resemblence to a certain breed of cat, why don't people say it's probably a x-mix. 
I guess Padunk answered my question though!
Jennifer


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

jennifer2 said:


> That's not what I'm asking Tim.
> I was wondering why, if someone posts a picture of a cat that has a clear resemblence to a certain breed of cat, why don't people say it's probably a x-mix.
> I guess Padunk answered my question though!
> Jennifer


Simply because it's much harder to distinct certain traits in different cat breeds that it is in dog breeds.

Many cat breeds have similar body shape and head (Oriental Shortair, The Siamese, The Balinese and the Javanese pretty much look the same with only colors and fur length of different types). The Persian, the Exotic and The British Shortair are similar, how will one know if a mix has Persian, Exotic or Brit in it?

We have bred dogs for so much longer so many dog breeds have very distinct and breed specific traits while different cat breeds can be very similar. Cats basically are of the same size, they weigh between 2 kg to 15 kg (4 lbs to 7 lbs). Dogs can weigh between 4 lbs to 45 lbs (ore even more)... so, there's a big difference between dogs and cats in his matter. In dogs it can be hard to know if a dog is a lab-mix or a golden-mix... depending on what the "other half" of the dog is.

How can one tell the difference between a Siamese/Persian-mix and a Balinese/Exoic-mix? I doubt anyone could.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

Thanks
I guess I've always been around purebred dogs, but farm cats, so I always assumed that cats breeds were as distinctive as dog breeds. Anytime I see a cat with a smooshed face, I think persian. I didn't know there were others.

Jennifer


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

i adopted a female persian from our local humane society,any one can tell by looking at her that she is full persian.but i dont have papers for her ,so for all the experts on cats ,i guess she is just "a domestic long hair" :roll: right


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

Well, yes. I'm not arguing the fact of papers though. I understand the papers. Again, since dogs are easier to tell one from the other I'm going to use dogs in my example. Even if you adopted a dog that is obviously a boston terrier-a very distinctive dog. Without papers you can only say it's a boston-mix. 
My golden has papers, so she is purebred. Even without papers I'd assume she is purebred by looking at her. But I couldn't call her a purebred I could say she is a golden mix though. The thing is let's imagine that her great great grandparents could have been a golden and a yellow lab. That's 4 generations ago, and assuming all other dogs in her lineage were full goldens, she'd be only be 1/8th lab and you wouldn't be able to tell that by looking at her, so to assume she's purebred would be wrong. That's why no papers=not purebred. I was just wondering why a cat in a similar senario wouldn't be called a x-mix rather than a DSH. But, I understand that now, since the cat breeds are much more closely related than the dog breeds.
Papers prove that all other animals related to the animal in question going back as far as you can track are the same breed as the animal in question. Just one animal many generations ago of a different breed and it's no longer purebred. That's why without papers it's not a purebred.


Jennifer


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

teebos69 said:


> i adopted a female persian from our local humane society,any one can tell by looking at her that she is full persian.but i dont have papers for her ,so for all the experts on cats ,i guess she is just "a domestic long hair" :roll: right


Yeah, you don't know if her grandfather is a Norwegian Forest Cat (that would probably not show as long as all the other cats behind her are Persians) or if her heritage is "pure" so she is a Domestic Longhair. She's not JUST a Domestic Longhair, she's a Domestic Longhair and there's nothing "just" about that.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

come on now enough is enough,are you sopossed to be an expert in cats.she is full persian,


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

But that's the point, without papers, you can't prove she's Persian. You have no way of knowing if 4 generations ago another breed (Hymalayan for example) snuck in just once, and if that breed was similar enough, any visible differences would have been bred out by the Persians.
It doesn't really matter one way or the other unless you want to breed or show her.
Any reputable breeder won't breed with a non-papered cat regardless of whether it's the best specimen of the breed they've ever seen. Without papers there is no way to prove the lineage.

Jennifer


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

teebos69 said:


> come on now enough is enough,are you sopossed to be an expert in cats.she is full persian,


I wouldn't call myself an expert but I am a breeder and I know what the meaning of purebred stands for within at least FIFé. I breed Devon Rexes and we regulary use other breeds to expand the Devon Rex genepool. Both my females are so called F4 cats meaning one of their grandparents grandparent is of foreign breed and you won't be able to tell by the looks of them. They are both show champions, going for international champions. They are however the result of an "experimental breeding program" so they are considered purebred anyways because of their papers. 

It's all just technicalities, but it is the papers that make the cat purebred.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

well then tell me how people can make up phoney papers for dogs and cats,and say that they are full breeds when they are not,are they then considered full breeds because they have papers.i have a persian and to my knowledge she is definetly a purebreed persian .no matter what you people have to say.

(The post have been edited by moderator due to namecalling.)


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

You can call her a persian. I can call her a persian. 100 other people can call her a persian, and another 100 can call her siamese... it just doesn't matter. The only point people have been trying to make in all these threads is that without papers, you don't have PROOF of the "full" part. And I honestly don't think that if you were to post somewhere else on the forum and introduce your Persian kitty, people would correct you. The topics in the breeding forum are meant to be about Breeding and about Breeds... and get very specific and technical. If you don't want to hear people say your cat is a DLH, simply stop posting about it.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

ok then i will ,just because you breed cats that dosent make you an expert.my cat is a persian.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

your the one who keeps insisting that shes not purebred.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

First off, my thread (the one you're posting in) is about why don't we refer to a situation like this as a persian-mix. You're the one who brought up purebreds.
We're not insisting she's not purebred, we're saying without papers you can't prove it. Sorry, but that's not an opinion that is fact. For the sake of arguement lets say she is purebred. All anyone is saying is that without papers you can't prove lineage.
Imagine this guy bred with a longhaired cat. It'd look a whole lot like a persian, but it's not, it'd be an exotic mixed with a longhaired cat. The CFA blurb about the Exotic. 


> They are bred to meet the Persian standard in every way with one very special exception: the coat has a thick, dense, plush, short coat


http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/exotic.html










Edited to add, no one is claiming your cat is less of a cat just because it's not papered. Neither of mine are and I wouldn't trade them for the champion of champions in any papered cat!


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

I always referred to my boy as a Siamese/Persian, or "rejected first-generation Himalayan."  I was very proud of his breed - but I also knew where he came from. If I hadn't met the litter and his parents, I would have scoured the books for a match and declared him a flame-point Birman.

Very interesting topic! Even in horse breeds (which aren't so different in type as dogs, IMO), bloodlines are notated for generations. I've seen papers declaring horses that are 15/16ths Arabian. Curious that the cat world does it differently.

Lisa


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## tornangel012 (Feb 18, 2005)

I found this a really interesting topic as well And I guess I feel the same confusion since I have just started to have cats 3 years ago and before that My family has been through 14 dogs from purebreds to mutts. I remember with our Mutts we could sort of tell from markings and snout sizes what type of mix they were. And it's true dogs are a lot more varied then cats in sizes, personalities and body characteristics. Also some of our purebreds had papers while others didn't but they were also unlicensed breeders that we had known of years so they still knew the lineage of their dogs. (Don't ask we had a junkyard in the NOT best of areas and alot of our dogs were free, but we raised them all at home until they were old enough to deal with outdoor conditions, and obediant to us.)

Anyways when My last cat died I knew I wanted another Maine **** so I scoured my shelters to find maine **** mixes . I think that he carries some traits and I like to say he's a maine **** mix but it is kind of sad to have people keep telling you he's just a DLH. I suppose I'm just still not used to that aspect of Cat breeds in comparrison to Dog breeds.

Good read this was though, very informative.


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

I have to disagree with the purebred/mix thing... I have been showing for some years in horses, dogs and cats. I had a Cocker Spaniel Chloe ( Triple Images De' Ja' Vu') she is the complete standard of the breed. Anyway, I was at a friends who happened to be a vet so, I was on my way out of his office when a woman asked if she was a poodle (?). I just have to lol :lol: ! Anyhow, from experience many animals out there are not the standard of the breed (pets) and when a person has seen or has knowledge of the standard people tend to think these animals are a mix of breeds. I have found this to happen in all animals. Also, if a purebred is lacking papers then no it is not a mix as you well know it just cannot be registered. As to breeds and combining them some top breeders in all aspects of breeding are doing this to start new breeds or improve on another, and yes until recognized they are non registers in the association or better known as pets. Just for an example Siamese were breed to Persians to better the Persian breed and out of it came Himalayans from the differences in bone structure and coat etc. 
Just my feelings on this matter though :wink:


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## Adrienne (Jan 15, 2005)

I thought I would share this story because it seemed to fit.

I took my new kitten to the vet to make sure everything was okay with her. While I was sitting in the waiting area a lady came up and told me my Russian Blue was just adorable and she loved the coloring. I smiled and said "She is just a moggie, but thanks." The lady looked almost insulted and said "Are you sure she is just a moggie?" I told her “Yes I am positive- I know who the mom is and we have a good idea who the dad is. Both parents are moggies.”

When I went into the waiting room I told the vet tech what the lady in the waiting room said about my kitten looking like a Russian Blue. She told me the women is a very reputable breeder of Russian Blues. The experienced breeder couldn’t tell that my cat was a moggie, so it would be even harder for a person that is not an breeder to tell. That is why I think it hard to say that a cat is a mix.


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

Adrienne 


> The experienced breeder couldn’t tell that my cat was a moggie, so it would be even harder for a person that is not an breeder to tell. That is why I think it hard to say that a cat is a mix.




I so agree with you!!!
It is hard to tell that a cat is a moggie, lots of times these cats look so off the beaten path as to the standard or the normal pet of the standard, people automatically assume the animal is not purebred. I had a American short heard I adopted from a shelter, when a breeder came to my house he confirmed my cat was in fact not a moggie but, a purebred... Teddy was the standard of his time, he was 18 so all the time in between breeders refined the breed so much so we all thought he was a pet (moggie). May my little T rest in peace


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