# Food questions/Too much protein bad for cats?



## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

I am going to be adopting two cats in the coming months and I do not want to feed them garbage common food brands which would cause them health problems in the long run.

After reading some threads in the forum, I got the impression from the posts of members here that EVO 95% Beef was one of the best cat foods, if not the best cat food, out there.

I went to a specialty pet store that is close to me and asked an employee there if they carry EVO 95% Beef. They told me they do not carry it, nor any prodcucts from Innova or Natura etc. I asked him why not, and he said something like: "We are not on board with giving cats that much protein on a regular basis." I told him about the arguments I've read online (such as on this site) on why lots of protein is good, such as that is what cats eat in the wild. 

His response was something like, "Yes, cats eat lots of protein from their prey in the wild. But-they may only eat once every 8 or 9 days. They do not get overloaded with protein every day." 

So, now I would love feedback from you guys on that argument. 

Is too much protein on a regular basis, like feeding cats EVO 95% Beef on a regular basis, potentially bad for cats? 

Is there a school of thought out there that believes too much protein on a regular basis is bad for cats? Or was that employee's opinion a fringe opinion which is not shared by an identifiable group of people?

I do not think that store deliberately would want to sell lots of food that is bad for cats. He told me frankly that the worst brand of food they carry in that store is 'Science Diet,' and it is junk food. 

I also have some other questions about food. One of the breeders I am adopting a cat from recommends to feed cats Felidae. After reading posts on this site, though, I got the impression that Felidae is less than ideal. 

Is there any reason why Felidae might potentially be more healthy for cats than Evo 95% Beef? 

Since Felidae presents itself as a healthy cat food product, why do they include grain and vegetables etc. in most of their products? 

Is Wellness Grain-free a healthier choice to feed my cats than Felidae products?

A few more questions, what is up with this product from Felidae:

CANIDAE® All Natural Holistic Cat Food - Grain Free Cat & Kitten canned formula 

...?

Are they trying to compete with Evo or Wellness by making a product that is more in-line with Evo and Wellness' superior products? 

Why doesn't Felidae make _all_ of their cat food products grain-free instead of just that one?

Why does that product have "Ocean Fish" in it if fish is bad for cats (according to what I read on this site)?

I know there are a lot of questions in this post. I'd very much appreciate if you guys could try to tackle all of them, because I only want to feed the very best food to my cats, and I need crystal-clear clarity on these issues so I know what brands of cat food to feed them.


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## furryfriends251 (Jan 1, 2009)

First off, the grain free lines of Felidae (wet food) tend to have too much salt. A lot of people who feed a rotation notice that after they feed grain free felidae wet food their cats are drinking a lot more than after any other wet food.

Cats are obligate carnivores - they need meat protien and a lot of it!!! There isn't such a thing as "too much protein" IMO.

It may just be me, but I do not think that the EVO 95% food is the greatest. It has a very high fat content and that just isn't natural for a cat to get.

The very best, IMO, is to feed a raw diet. Feeding Cats Raw has a lot of information about that as well as http://www.catforum.com/forum/62-raw-food-diet/122080-natural-diet-information-resources.html.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

The difference between EVO and similar high-quality foods, relative to lower-quality foods, is not the amount of protein, but the source of the protein. That is, whether the protein comes from meat (which provides the best nutritional value) or from by-products or grain (which provide less nutritional value). A higher percentage of protein doesn’t mean a particular food is better than another, and a lower percentage of protein doesn’t mean it’s worse. The important issue is where the protein is coming from. In many cases, EVO and similar high-quality foods will contain less protein than some of the lower-quality foods, but because the protein in EVO and similar meat-based, grain-free foods comes from meat (not grains, etc.), they provide more nutritional value for the cat. 

“Too much” protein is not bad for cats, assuming no other health issues. Any excess protein will just be excreted in their urine or used for fuel or fat, which will cause no harm to a healthy cat. Moreover, foods such as EVO don’t have “too much” protein in any event, despite what the fellow in the store said. Here is a good article that addresses the issue of protein and protein sources. 

Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basis of Feline Nutrition 

Why does Felidae make some products that are grain-free and others that are not? I can’t speak for the company and I don’t know anything about the brand, but I suspect Felidae is simply trying to improve their overall sales and profits, by appealing to various segments of the market – both people who are looking for grain-free food AND people who either aren’t aware of the benefits of grain-free food or are looking for a less expensive food. The more people they can sell to, the higher their sales will be. The same answer would apply to your question about why some foods contain fish. Put simply, why does any company make products that are not good for us? Because we buy them.


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## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks for the information. 

I have read about feeding cats raw food, but I tend to agree with the counter-argument against that idea, that feeding raw can lead to bacterial problems.

I'm probably going to feed canned food to my cats, but I would want to feed the best canned food I can buy. I think I might be able to find Evo 95% Beef at another store.

So is Evo 95% Beef more healthy than Felidae?

What is more healthy out of: Evo 95% Beef, and Wellness Grain-free?


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

You can’t “rank” foods, by saying that Brand A is the absolute best without question, and Brand B is second best, and so on and so forth down the line. All of the meat-based, grain-free foods are healthy, including EVO, Wellness, Weruva, Natural Balance, and Go!Natural, to name but a few. Moreover, you shouldn’t feed your cats only one brand and one flavor. If you do, then over time your cat might refuse to eat anything else – and you’d then have a problem if the brand you were feeding were discontinued or no longer available in your area. So, select a few types of high-quality wet foods of different flavors (avoid fish), see which ones your cat seems to like the best, and then rotate between these.


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## ~Siameseifuplz~ (May 6, 2007)

I think both EVO and Felidae are good foods, I would feed both. I don't feed just one brand, I feed several (canned foods, not dry). I like EVO a little better, not necassarily the beef, mine prefer chicken.

As for why the put fish and veggies, it's attractive to the buyer. People put their own vision of healthy food (which for humans would include veggies, fruits, grains, meat, dairy, etc.) onto their cats, they assume what's good for us must be good for them. So people see carrots in the food and think "carrots are full of vitamins that are great for them!" because that's how it is for us.
People have been told for years that cats love fish, which is true, it's tasty. Cats also get addicted to fish which is good for the company since the cat will only want their food. Plus it's likely a cheap meat source.


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## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

Susan said:


> You can’t “rank” foods, by saying that Brand A is the absolute best without question, and Brand B is second best, and so on and so forth down the line.


I am not disagreeing, but I am curious: why isn't that possible?

Since the ingredient list is laid bare, why would a cat expert not be able to perform a comparative analysis based on that, and as a result, definitively determine which brand is best?


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Because veterinary science – like any science – is not exact. So, no cat expert can tell you, for example, that 42.2% (or any other percent) protein is the exact amount a cat should eat, not a decimal point more, not a decimal point less, which is what one would need to know in order to do the type of comparative analysis and ranking that you suggest. On top of that, cats are not identical. They differ in terms of their weight, activity levels, health, age, growth stage, breed, bone structure, muscle tone, metabolism, etc., etc. So, what might hypothetically be better for one cat won’t be better for another, even if all of the relevant factors could be measured precisely (which isn’t the case). Perhaps someday (long after we're gone) science will have advanced sufficiently such that there will be no more mystery in life. Until then, we’ll just have to learn to live with, and enjoy, imprecision.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Because the ingredient list isn't laid bare. For example...if a food flavor is called Duck and Oatmeal, then the labeling laws require the food to contain 95% duck and oatmeal. If the duck comes before the oatmeal on the list, then there has to be more duck than oatmeal. But Brand A could have 60% duck and 35% oatmeal and Brand B could be 50/45. 

In addition, there are just so many variables...and just as many opinions about those variables...as you've already run into. And a lot of those opinions are based on individual experiences...which are not consistent even amongst experts.

A good example is the fat content in the EVO 95% foods...it concerns me because there were many reports here about cats puking it up, including one of mine. And it makes me concerned about pancreatitis. Someone who doesn't have that input may think the fat content is fine. 

Some people believe that even though cats have no real requirement for fruits and vegetables, that the anti-oxidant properties of these ingredients are beneficial. Other people are purists and say cats should have meat and fat and nothing else. 

Basically, you can classify food in groups and label them with something like 5 star, 4 star etc. But the variables make it nearly impossible to say that one 5 star food is better than another 5 star food. That decision is made by the cats when they'll eat one but not the other :lol:


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## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Coonconnoisseur, a lot of good, solid information has been posted already. As you can see, the "best" canned foods are those with high meat-based protein, no grains, and no to low fruits, veggies and fish.

I feed my fosters a rotation of several grain-free products (my own cats are raw-fed), including all the Innova Evo, Wellness, Natural Balance, Felidae, Go!Natural, and Nature's Variety flavors.

A "grain free canned cat food" search on petfooddirect.com will produce seven pages of products you can compare. The ingredients and guaranteed analysis are also available, which makes it a great research tool.

Cats evolved to eat several small meals a day, not once every eight or nine days - that store clerk doesn't even know basic animal nutrition. And a store that sells Science Diet is most definitely not making inventory choices based on the relative quality of the products. I might ask him if he knew what time it was, but I wouldn't ask anything further. 

Oh, and someone mentioned fat.... Cats actually have a remarkably high need for fat when compared to our needs. For instance, the average fat level in a mouse ranges from 23% up to 34%. http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

Good luck in your hunt! 

AC


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## Ducman69 (Aug 28, 2010)

Some may be overthinking this as well. 10 years ago, cats were not dying left and right, and people were generally feeding their cats junk.

To strive for perfection is overkill, as these are not race horses. Just avoid a serious junk food diet with unidentified meats and corn fillers and the like, and watch for food allergies and that your kitty is getting enough fluids (from food and/or pet fountains kept clean in various parts of the house).

A raw diet sounds great, but isn't particularly practical for your average cat owner, and improperly handled can do more harm than good. Easier to lay out and harder to screw up just popping open a can of a good wet food and lay out some decent ingredient list dry for grazing or when away for extended periods. To avoid overeating (or too quickly eating) the dry, they have little food dispensing balls that cats have to roll around to disperse food (entertaining too).

Not an expert myself, but thats been the consensus I've gotten from several peeps I've talked to that have healthy older cats.


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## Ducman69 (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh, one other tip I found that was helpful, was to transition flavors every once in a while, which can also make up for deficiencies in any particular blend.

And on that note, also make sure that what you are feeding them is a "complete" diet.


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## Kattt (Dec 20, 2008)

coonconnoisseur said:


> I am not disagreeing, but I am curious: why isn't that possible?
> 
> Since the ingredient list is laid bare, why would a cat expert not be able to perform a comparative analysis based on that, and as a result, definitively determine which brand is best?


 
Because just like humans, all cats bodies and tolerances levels to certain ingredients are made up differently. What may be good for your cat, may cause my cat to develop health issues, or vice versa. So its impossible to say a certain brand is a great food, that should be fed to ALL cats. Because not all healthy foods, are good for all cats.. despite the healthy ingredients.

For example - I have 2 cats. Both fed the same thing their entire lives. One developed oxalate stones, the other didn't. Which means the food was bad for one, but not the other. Same thing for humans - we can eat the same exact food, and I can develop diabetes, and you don't. Or I could be a food expert, and say you should eat chicken and rice every single day of your life if you wish to live a long, healthy life. But you could be allergic to chicken and rice, so that makes my expert opinion null and void for you, right?!

So no expert can lay out one brand and one flavor, and say its the best. Because the best is determined by whats best for YOUR cat and your cats body and nutritional needs. So basically, if your cat has no health issues - read the ingredients and make sure there's nothing bad such as by-products, corn gluten, etc etc, and base your decision on that.

And I agree with the previous posters. Rotate the food. Again, just like people - cats don't want to eat the same food day in and day out. So its best to buy a variety of healthy foods and flavors, and rotate it daily.


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## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

Kattt said:


> Because just like humans, all cats bodies and tolerances levels to certain ingredients are made up differently. What may be good for your cat, may cause my cat to develop health issues, or vice versa. Because not all healthy foods, are good for all cats.. despite the healthy ingredients.
> 
> For example - I have 2 cats. Both fed the same thing their entire lives. One developed oxalate stones, the other didn't. Which means the food was bad for one, but not the other.



How can the cat owner determine whether a particular healthy cat food is bad for a a particular cat, _before_ health problems start to occur?


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## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Ducman69 said:


> ...To strive for perfection is overkill, as these are not race horses. Just avoid a serious junk food diet with unidentified meats and corn fillers and the like, and watch for food allergies and that your kitty is getting enough fluids (from food and/or pet fountains kept clean in various parts of the house).


I love and look forward to reading most of your posts, Ducman, but I'll have to politely but strongly disagree with you on this. Striving for perfection is not a waste and, in fact, should be the norm. This world would be a far more beautiful place if everyone honestly tried their best in all things. (And for my furkids - the best I can do is exactly what they're going to get.) 



Ducman69 said:


> A raw diet sounds great, but isn't particularly practical for your average cat owner, and improperly handled can do more harm than good. Easier to lay out and harder to screw up just popping open a can of a good wet food and lay out some decent ingredient list dry for grazing or when away for extended periods.
> 
> Not an expert myself, but thats been the consensus I've gotten from several peeps I've talked to that have healthy older cats.


Raw feeding truly isn't rocket science. Really, it's not. Doing the initial calculations and sourcing a variety of products are the hardest parts and only need to be done once. 

I've been doing it for over a year with five, now six, cats, and I don't even think about it anymore. I check the schedule each morning, pull out the proper foods for the following day to thaw in the fridge, open and dump out onto their plates the foods I pulled from the freezer yesterday to thaw for today. One, two, three, done.

Cutting and packing the meals takes longer, but I only do it once or twice a month, and I spend less time at it than a co-worker spent stuffing sausages with her family over a recent weekend. 

As for a "decent dry" - no such thing, IMO (Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basis of Feline Nutrition, Cat Nutrition.Org, Cat Nutrition.Org, Feline Health). 

- - - - - - - - -

Not arguing for raw.... but I missed your comment about bacterial worries the first time through this thread, Coonconnoisseur. Cats evolved to handle bacteria in their foods that would kill us, so even though it seems alarming to us, it's natural for the cat. They have extremely short digestive tracts and a blend of salivory and stomach acids to deal with anything that might be in or on the meat. In fact, ferals and big cats will often bury their leftover breakfasts, sleep away the hot day, and then dig up the remains for dinner. (Nutrition) There's a study in my archives somewhere - I'll see if I can find it - that conclusively proved that healthy cats had to be "dosed" with levels of Salmonella far in excess of what they'd ever naturally encounter before they showed any adverse effects. 

It's been a while since I've seen a thread really get deep into food analysis. Good stuff!!!

AC


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Ducman69 said:


> Some may be overthinking this as well. 10 years ago, cats were not dying left and right, and people were generally feeding their cats junk.


Having lost a cat (maybe 2) to issues that I believe developed due to the diet she was on, there is a tendency to be cautious. Many of us have seen first hand the results of a poor diet. And there is data to support the fact that cats are living longer healthier lives...in part due to better diets and in part due to better medical care.


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## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

coonconnoisseur said:


> How can the cat owner determine whether a particular healthy cat food is bad for a a particular cat, _before_ health problems start to occur?


I disagree with the premise that some foods are healthy for some cats but not healthy for others; that's like saying cigarette smoking is good for some people but not good for others, just because some people get cancer and die and others don't. Either the food is good for cats, or it's not. 

Coonconnoisseur, the closer you get to what cats evolved to eat, the healthier, more biologically appropriate and beneficial the diet is going to be. In a perfect world, we would all be feeding our cats a variety of humanely raised and killed whole prey animals (and there are many folks who actually do, even on this forum).

As close as you can get to that ideal - and your cats will actually eat - is the "best" you can do for them.

If you're feeding commercially-produced canned products, a rotation of products is the safest route to take. Quality control being what it is (or isn't, as the case may be), if something is wrong with a particular product, your cats are cushioned because it's only one of many. 

In addition, and perhaps more importantly, science has not yet identified all the nutrients, enzymes, etc., present within animal bodies and how the cat's body uses those nutrients. Therefore, pet food industry is only guessing when they add supplements into their heavily-processed (and therefore, nutritionally deficient) products. The larger your rotation (as long as it's all high-quality, with "high-quality" meaning a high percentage of meat-based ingredients, no grains, etc.), the greater the chance your cats will get what they need from their diet.

Just my .02. 

AC


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## Kattt (Dec 20, 2008)

Auntie Crazy said:


> I disagree with the premise that some foods are healthy for some cats but not healthy for others; that's like saying cigarette smoking is good for some people but not good for others, just because some people get cancer and die and others don't. Either the food is good for cats, or it's not.


And I completely disagree with this. Having a cat that is proned to oxalate stones, there are healthy foods that he simply can not eat, because of the ingredients. As I'm sure there are many other health issues that cats develop, that they have to avoid certain ingredients due to their condition as well. So I hardly think it compares to smoking. 

Granted, I'm talking about cats with health issues - not healthy cats. But obviously the food he was eating was bad for him long before I knew it was. I think with proper annual tests, many health issues can be avoided based on a diet thats suited for their particular needs. 

For example, if you have a healthy cat that runs a very high pH level, you're obviously not going to want to feed him a food that raises his pH level even higher, whether its a healthy brand or not. Because then you're risking him developing urinary crystals. So I firmly believe my original statement, that not all healthy foods are healthy for all cats. 

But as always, we're all always going to have our own opinions :mrgreen:


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