# Unbelievable, or normal?? (Rant)



## chris06516 (Mar 12, 2005)

I heard something that is very upsetting to me. A relative has to put their cat to sleep and called the vet to make the appointmet. They quoted her a price of $70.00, without return of the ashes. This price includes the injection, cremation and a quick exam beforehand. However, the vet's office called her back the next day to say that they misquoted the price. It would actually be $135.00 _because she wants to stay in the room until the end!!! _ :evil: 

Is it normal for these places to charge an additional $65.00 just because the person wants to stay?? I am just so aggravated and upset over this. Maybe I just don't understand the whole process, but when my mother-in-law had to put her dog down, they certainly did not charge her extra to stay with him.

Sorry, just had to rant.


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## Annissa (Dec 9, 2003)

I would consider that unreasonable and find a different vet.


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## spamlet (Mar 14, 2005)

What's the deal with vets? You'd think that someone entering into that proffesion would do so because of their love for animals, not to make a quick buck. There is a homeless man near where I work who has a dog that wears a human shirt, he is so cute! The other day he was without his dog and so I asked him where he was and he'd taken the dog in to a vets cause it had hurt it's foot, and when he went to collect it they said he couldn't have it back until he paid £7.50!!! It's quite obvious this guy is homeless and coudn't afford it. The dog's really ill now and about to die, it breaks my heart. I would absolultly find another vets, and make sure you tell that other vet exactly what you think of him and his 'caring' ways.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

We actually do charge for euthanasias. If its a client we see on a regular basis we don't charge at all... but if its someone who hasn't been to us in years of has never seen a vet except to have their animal put down, we'll charge an exam fee I believe.

The only thing most people pay for is the cremation with return of ashes... maybe without return too, I'm not completely sure.

I think its disgusting to charge extra to be in the room. Its comforting to so many pets to have loved ones with them to the end, and provides a great sense of closure to many people. I'd highly suggest not going back to that vet just for morals alone!


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

I agree. An extra charge to remain with your pet during euthanasia is just not right, unless there's something strange going on that we're just not understanding here. I'd find another vet, unless this is the vet that's treated the cat his whole life...and even then, I'd be really asking why the surcharge and why _exactly_ are they discouraging pet owners attending their pets' euthanasias? Is there a difference in how they're going to do it if the owner is there? Or is it that the vet doesn't do well at dealing with client grief and wants to minimize his contact with it?

When I hit that stray cat just after Christmas, the vet I took him to didn't charge me for the euthanasia, even though I offered to pay for it. I mean, yes, vets charge for euthanasia and remains disposal, I would expect my vet to charge me when and if I need to let Assumpta go, and I would expect an extra charge if she did it as a house call (which is what I'd ideally want), but if she told me it would cost extra just if I wanted to be in the room, I'd go ballistic, I really would.


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## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

It makes you wondering whether their euthanization procedure is different if someone is present to witness it. Maybe the price is higher because it costs them more? I'm not even going to suggest why....leave it to your own speculation. :?


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## emma_pen (Nov 2, 2004)

Our euthanasia procedure is exactly the same whether the owner is there or not. We charge for the euthanasia & cremation, but usually not a consultation fee. The price of cremation varies with whether you want ashes back or not. I sdon't understand how it would cost more for the client to stay with their pet - find another vet!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm shocked and disappointed. This is not a long, complicated procedure; it's an injection. The vet is taking advantage of your relative's grief. So disheartening.


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## chris06516 (Mar 12, 2005)

Thank you all. I am so glad that I am not the crazy one here. I am so upset with this whole thing (mainly because this is the vet I take _my_ animals too also). I called another place for my relative and they charge a flat $90.00 fee which includes euthanasia, cremation (no return of ashes) and the sedative they give ahead of time. No extra charge to stay in the room. Now that is much more reasonable. It wasn't even the price, it was the fact that she has to pay to stay with the kitty she has loved for so long!! 

And Tim, believe me, my mind is going in a hundred different directions with this one. I can only imagine what the reasons are wanting to discourage family from being there, and none of those thoughts are pleasant at all!! :evil: 

My relative has decided to go to an alternate facility for the procedure and I have already made numerous phone calls to look for a new vet for my girls. I never want to go through this myself.

Chris


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## Annissa (Dec 9, 2003)

Are you going to write a letter to your old vet to explain why you're going elsewhere? It might be a good learning experience for them.


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## chris06516 (Mar 12, 2005)

Yes, I am going to write a letter. I am also looking into writing a letter to the Veterianian's Association, since I do not like where my thoughts are going with this whole thing. I have had my own issues with this vet recently, since they have not been very helpful or encouraging regarding the re-directed aggression problems I have been having. They acted like they did not want to be bothered when I took the cats in (a paid visit!) and even after I called back repeatedly, they never bothered to call me back with more info. They had promised to look into this problem and get back to me. So I do not feel very bad for giving them up and going elsewhere in light of this new situation.

Chris


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## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't blame you. It doesn't sound like they really want your business, does it? Not to mention what that attitude might imply toward their care of their patients. :?


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

I really had to bite my tongue when I replied, because I know that I would be asking serious questions as to why a vet would have a policy like this...and tact is NOT my strong suit, so my manner of asking would have been pretty blunt and probably insulting (and I decided that its wording wouldn't add anything to the conversation)...but I would definitely be asking serious questions about this surcharge, because it would make me question the quality of care provided...and I mean hardcore questions. And I would definitely find a new vet going forward.


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## Jockette (Feb 2, 2005)

I don't know what I'd do if my vet asked for more to stay with my cat if they had to be put down... I doubt my vet would, she's super nice and knew I was going through tough times when one of my cats got sick - she ended up cutting a lot of the costs back and cut some costs altogether

I think you're taking the right approach, finding another vet and also writing a letter - hopefully the situation is acknowledged


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## chris06516 (Mar 12, 2005)

Well, I have to be honest. After I spoke to my relative, I called the vet's office myself and I was not too pleasant. I asked them if they had really planned on eauthanizing the cat, or were they sending it out somewhere that performs testing on helpless kitties? I told them that since they weren't getting paid from some other source, maybe that was why they were charging $65.00 extra for my relative to stay in the room? Needless to say, they weren't too happy. I figured at the very least, they were probably going to save money by not tranquilizing the poor kitty first, if the family was not in the room. This whole thing stinks, in my opinion. I really didn't know what other reasons there could be, and I am too afraid to think too hard.

Chris


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

Did they have any kind of an answer to your question as to the pice discrepancy? 

I have to say, you were nicer than I probably would have been.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I would never have thought of that possibility. (research) The vet's oath states, Primo non nocere, (first, do no harm.) Wouldn't that be horrible? I'm glad you told them, Chris, but like you, I wouldn't want to think too hard.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

We paid nearly a hundred dollars for old boy's euthanasia, but that's because it was an emergency call. I made the decision at 9pm on a Thursday night, and the vet had to come in. Had I waited twelve hours, it would have been $20, but I couldn't do that. He was visibly suffering, it had been a long illness that reached a turning point, and my decision was made.

My cat was not tranquilised when he was euthanised, and he went peacefully. Is it standard practice to tranq? Just curious.

Lisa


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## jazzo (Apr 19, 2005)

I just put Jazzy down and it cost $50.00. They let me have some time with her before. I was in the room with her for a good 15-20 minutes and just held her and said goodbye. Then they came in and even asked if I wanted more time, and I said no. They took her and brought her back with the cather in her where they would inject the medicine. After she died, they let me stay with her as long as I wanted. I stay for another 10 minutes or so and just left.

I would be appauled at that. I personally wouldn't pay it and just find another vet.


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## chris06516 (Mar 12, 2005)

Thank you for the address Kimba. I will be sending a letter off today. Yesterday I called back the vet's office and again asked, Why the extra charge? Their only excuse was that they had to reserve a room for my relative to use, so it was a room fee. Now, they have 6 exam rooms in that office and only 2 vets on at any given time, so why charge so much when they have 5 other rooms available? It still just doesn't sit right with me.

I have spread the word to all my family and friends, since a lot of them go to this vet. They were all upset. I also called around to the other vets in the area, most charge under $90.00 for the procedure and the family is allowed as much time with their pet as they like. 

Chris


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

The only difference in the way we euthanize animals in the room or in the back with no owner is the use of an IV catheter. Some animals we always place them in, if its going to be hard to stay in the vein long enough but for the most part if there isn't an owner around we just do the straight injection.

With the owners we have a catheter placed and use a butterfly extention so that the doctor can be kind of away from the animal and the owner can be as close as they want without interfering with the doctor.

We rarely use sedatives unless we really have to. I can understand why they are used, but at the same time I think its an extra step and extra cost that isn't really needed. Just something to ask about...

anyone else have experience with the sedatives? I usually get really inquisitive when other places do things differently than we do... just because I only know to do things a certain way.


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## cmaijer (Jul 28, 2003)

My vet was wonderful when we had to make the painful decision to put Tammy to sleep. She gave us time to say goodbye, cry, etc. We stayed in the room with her and then they wrapped her in a towel and put her in a box for us to take with us. When we got the bill, I was very surprised to see it was only about $20. A month later, we received a letter from the Veterinary School @ Mizzou that one of the vets had given a donation in Tammy's name. It has been nearly a year and I am choking up now because of the wonderful way they dealt with such a painful situation.


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

We (almost) always sedate shelter animals before euthanasia; it's such a stressful environment to begin with that they are usually pretty agitated (and IMO, a lot of them euthanized for health reasons really aren't quite ready to go yet, but facilities, resources, and space to hospice terminally ill animals indefinitely just isn't something that we have). In some cases, we have had to euthanize vicious/uncontrollable dogs in-kennel because we can't bring them out safely, and in those cases, forced sedation is an absolute necessity (and also quite an ordeal for all involved, as I've learned)...both for the safety of the humans involved and the well-being of the dog.

I think that with an agitated animal (or an agitated owner), some kind of pre-euthanasia sedation is a valid decision. If the animal is objecting to being handled, or struggling, it's more traumatic for animal, owner, and vet, and if the administration of a light sedative can make the process easier on animal and human, it's the way to go. But if the animal is weak, not struggling, amenable to being handled, and is just plain ready to be released, it may not be necessary. I think it's a judgement call.

But a "room fee" is absolutely ludicrous, IMO.


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## irishemt17 (Sep 8, 2004)

find another vet....how horrible that they want to make a profit on that! and have your friend get the word out on this place!


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Gudewife, I know what you're saying. We've had a few patients that really needed to be sedated first, and I can see where you'd need to use it as a routine thing in a shelter type environment. I guess we just don't have that many "problem euthanasias" to deal with.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Apr 18, 2005)

I don’t know about my vet (maybe now I’ll ask), but I know that the “pound”/Animal Control and Care facility charges $45 - but that’s if you catch a stray, and bring it in to be euthanized.
My friend had to put her cat to sleep, because it got HIV... I’m not sure what the cost is, but she got to hold him while they gave him the shot (he was nearly gone anyway, so they didn’t need sedatives)... and not only did she get to be with him, I got to stay in the room too, to comfort my friend.

I’ve been wondering about this, though. Can the owner be the one to give the injection? It may be odd, but I personally would like to do that, as it would feel like somebody else is taking my cat from me. It’ll be for the better, but I still think it’s kinda my right to ‘kill’ my own cat. I’m assuming it would be okay, since it’s the last injection they’ll ever get... no chance of infection for them, or other cats as the needle _should_ only be used once. While at the same time, maybe by law ALL injections have to be given by licensed practitioners. Anybody know?


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

As far as I know, a licensed vet must be the one to give the injection and pronounce death (at least where I live). However, where I live, it is also still legal to kill your own pet if it is done in a humane and quick manner and death is verified conclusively by the owner...in practice, this applies mostly to shooting dogs through the head.

Unless you're very experienced in spiking a vein in an agitated cat (or even a calm cat), I'd recommend against trying this at home. It's not just a subcutaneous of intramuscular injection...you either need to have a preexisting line into the vein or be able to hit the vein with the hypo on the first try...any inexperience will make it a very painful and stressful process for the animal. 

IMO, the owner can best serve their pet by holding and comforting it during the process.


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## morea (Feb 8, 2005)

I am so sorry! It's bad enough having to deal with the loss of a family pet without having to worry about being taken advantage of. It sounds like you are doing the right thing - everyone is giving good advice. Be strong!


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

Euthansia is a very painful process without the anasthasia (sorry if I spelled it wrong). A lot of vets cheap out and don't use enough anasthasia because the cat is going to die anyway. The extra charge to stay in the room with the cat when the cat is euthanized is for the extra anasthasia because the vet cannot cheap out and show the cat's suffering when the owner is present. The vet would then use more painkillers.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

shengmei said:


> Euthansia is a very painful process without the anasthasia (sorry if I spelled it wrong). A lot of vets cheap out and don't use enough anasthasia because the cat is going to die anyway. The extra charge to stay in the room with the cat when the cat is euthanized is for the extra anasthasia because the vet cannot cheap out and show the cat's suffering when the owner is present. The vet would then use more painkillers.


I really don't agree. Vets take oaths to not let animals suffer needlessly. So to make a euthanasia last longer than it should, with more suffering than normal just "because they're going to die anyway" is not an ethical practice. I really don't think most vets use a different amount of solution whether you are in the room or not.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> Euthansia is a very painful process without the anasthasia (sorry if I spelled it wrong). A lot of vets cheap out and don't use enough anasthasia because the cat is going to die anyway. The extra charge to stay in the room with the cat when the cat is euthanized is for the extra anasthasia because the vet cannot cheap out and show the cat's suffering when the owner is present. The vet would then use more painkillers.


Absolutely not. My cat was euthanised with me in the room. He was awake and mobile, if very disoriented, and he had a history of being aggressive. If it had caused him pain, I would have heard about it. He went very quietly and very peacefully.

What a ridiculous assertion. (BTW, I'd still like more information on that anti-Innova thread you started in the Health section. Some of us had questions, but you didn't follow-up.)

:roll: 

Lisa


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

OsnobunnieO said:


> I really don't agree. Vets take oaths to not let animals suffer needlessly. So to make a euthanasia last longer than it should, with more suffering than normal just "because they're going to die anyway" is not an ethical practice. I really don't think most vets use a different amount of solution whether you are in the room or not.


Yeah, if there was a place to cut costs, it would be at the shelter, and we only use sodium pentobarbital overdose (brought in by a vet) with a light sedative beforehand. It's very fast, causing initial unconsciousness, respiratory depression, and cardiac failure in a very short period (most all I've seen have been over in a matter of seconds, and a few very sick cats have quietly slipped away after the initial sedative was administered. Even the most intractable and vicious dog I've ever watched euthanized went very peacefully and quickly (once we managed to catch and sedate him).

I know that there are other methods and agents of euthanasia (like T61, if it's even still in use) that can give a much different clinical appearance due to anaesthetic cerebral cortex activity, and there are still places that euthanize by inhalation or homemade gas chamber, but running through the vets I know, I think they all use pentobarbital. There are cases when the injection might need to be made intreperitoneally, and death will be slower, but when it's given directly into the vein, it's over very quickly.

Plus, there's the fact that if you don't give enough of the drug, the patient simply won't die, as the drugs affect the upper levels of consciousness before they work on the brain stem activities like respiration and heartbeat; so giving a less-than-adequate dose won't cause a slower, prolonged death, it will just cause no death at all and a second dose will need to be adminstered...hardly cost-efficient or wise when you're dealing with a scheduled and strictly federally controlled drug.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

I am not anti-Innova. I love Innova dog food. The people working to make the Innova food are dog-lovers and they really make a pretty good dog food. I would buy Innova in a heartbeat if I have a dog. I just don't think it is wise to feed potatoes and alfalfa sprouts to cats.

The information I get from lethal injections is from some Houston Chronicles articles about a Texas man who challenged the Supreme Court because he believed that the lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment. I know that in the prison system in Texas lethal injection is done in a very irresponsible manner. If they can do it to people they surely can do it to cats. The last I heard, the Supreme Court agrees with him. Just because the drug paralyzes the animal does not mean the animal is not in pain. In some people the absence of sensation is pain. (as in the case of fantom pain in amputated limbs when people feel pain in the limbs after the limbs had already been amputated)

But then, a lot of cats purr when they are euthanized....so I really don't know if they are in great pain or not. I only know that lethal injection causes great pain in humans.

About the Innova post, I am sorry I did not follow up on that. I was very busy and my internet was disconnected. I posted the same comment on the ******************forum. As you can see, I am actually really fond of feeding Innova to dogs. I just don't think it is good to feed cats dog food ingredients such as potatoes since it had been proven that potatoes is a member of the nightshade family. The plants in the nightshade family, including potatoes and tomatoes, had been proven to cause arthitis in cats. Innova cat food also contains alfarfa sprouts. Alfalfa sprouts can be lethal in cats when they are ingested in very large amounts. Putting both potatoes and alfalfa sprouts in the dog food benefits dogs. I just don't see why they are putting potatoes and alfalfa sprouts in cat food.

shengmei
Junior Member



USA
443 Posts
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 21:30:15 
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I used to spend a lot of money on holistic foods. However, two weeks ago I began to realize that holistic cat foods, including Wysong, Innova, and Wellness (which I actually loved) are basically their dog foods with the addition of taurine. Innova EVO is the biggest offender since they don't even try to hide the fact. If you read the ingredient lists and compare their dog foods with their cat foods you can see my anger and disappointment. I can literally buy their dog food, add taurine myself, and call it cat food.

What were they thinking "oh by the way here we have this awesome dog food so we can just add taurine and call it cat food"??? Are they so ignorant as to not notice nutritional requirements differ significantly between dogs and cats???

By the way all of the companies I just mentioned were run by dog lovers. They love dogs and their foods contain ingredients that are superior than the foods I eat. I only have a problem with their formulation. A good quality pet food is not just quality ingredients. The way the ingredients are put together can be even more important than the ingredients itself.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04
[Melody Sunrise Hezekiah Yeh] BORN May 2004 

Snowball2
Starting Member



USA
4 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 09:29:07 
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I have to disagree. Wellness and Innova's formulas for their cat and dog foods are clearly different.

Top five ingredients:

Wellness Dog food: Chicken, Barley, Oatmeal, Rye Flour, fish meal

22% protein
12% fat

Wellness Cat food: Chicken, Chicken meal, chicken liver, brown rice, oats

33% protein
19 % fat

Innova EVO dog food: Turkey, chicken, turkey meal, chicken meal potatoes

42% protein
22% fat

Innova EVO cat food: turkey, chicken, chicken meal, herring meal, potatoes

50% protein
22% fat

Your cat's diet would be seriously deficient in protein if you just fed them dog food with added taurine. 


shengmei
Junior Member



USA
443 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 11:06:04 
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I compared their puppy foods to their cat foods.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04
[Melody Sunrise Hezekiah Yeh] BORN May 2004 


all_hail_thom_yorke
Junior Member



USA
168 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 11:15:52 
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I have to disagree too. Innova EVO for dogs offers 42% protein, while the cat EVO offers 50% (clearly a higher rate to reflect a higher need for protein in cats). Although I didn't contrast cat and dog food labels, I was impressed with the ingredients. There are still certain holistic companies that, I feel, do not offer enough protein for cats. But I still think, overall, that their ingredients are quality and worth the greater money spent. EVO is one food that I feel is DEFINITELY worth the money...I feed the dog formula to my Rottie and pay about $46 a month for it. But I have faith in the product and the improvements I feel it has made for my pup. Since I haven't had the opportunity to "try it out" on my cats (they're in Ohio with my parents), I can't really make any claims about how well it works. I really like Natura (the company that makes Innova, Karma Organic, California Natural, and Healthwise), so I do trust that they've worked very hard to give cats the best of quality in the food. When it comes to ingredients, I'm extremely impressed with Felidae (I feed Canidae to my Pug) as well. I would be proud to feed that to my kitties.

Hopefully we can hear from more people who are using these foods.

"The greatness and moral progress of a nation can be judged by the way it treats its animals"
-Gandhi 


nushikitty
Active Member



USA
938 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 11:32:29 
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A rottie and a pug? Lucky you! Those are two of my favorite breeds!

Laurel 


shengmei
Junior Member



USA
443 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 12:05:22 
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Innova is an extremely well-made dog food. However I could not coax my cats to eat their cat food. I feel that Innova does a pretty good job with dog food but lacks in flavor and variety with cat food since they treat cats as small puppies. Since dogs will eat almost everything a food dogs love cats usually do not care for it.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04
[Melody Sunrise Hezekiah Yeh] BORN May 2004 


Snowball2
Starting Member



USA
4 Posts
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 13:25:24 
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quote:
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Originally posted by shengmei

I compared their puppy foods to their cat foods.
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Sorry, but I looked at their puppy and cat foods and it's still the same. Cat food has more protein. They are not selling dog food as cat food with added taurine


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> But then, a lot of cats purr when they are euthanized....so I really don't know if they are in great pain or not. I only know that lethal injection causes great pain in humans.


That isn't what you said. What you *said* was a blatant slam against veterinarians. This is what you said:



shengmei said:


> A lot of vets cheap out and don't use enough anasthasia because the cat is going to die anyway. The extra charge to stay in the room with the cat when the cat is euthanized is for the extra anasthasia because the vet cannot cheap out and show the cat's suffering when the owner is present. The vet would then use more painkillers.


I would caution you against making such horrible and inflammatory statements in the future if you cannot back them up.

Lisa


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

I had heard many horror stories growing up in Taiwan about their animal shelters and how they put down animals. I certainly believe that there are vets who would euthanize pets for profit.

We just had a similar discussion at the ***************************forum.

Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 08:45:09 
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I have posted several messages regarding my eldest girl. She is 19 years old. Not able to have children, pickles is my first born and has been with me since she was 8 months old. She suffers now from hyperthyroidism and also has a heart murmor diagnosed since she was 8 years old. Also has arthritis in her spine caused by being hit by a car when she was about 10 years. All in all she is a wonderful girl but I cannot get her medicine into her. I have tried everything. Her constant howling and fixation with her water bowl drives us crazy. It happens all hours of the night and day.She is losing weight and is obviously suffering from dementia and has started peeing in everywhere in the house but her litter tray. I am at a loss here. I do not want to put her to sleep unless there is no alternative. Am I being selfish by considering putting her to sleep?
If I could get her medicine into her regulary i know it would help but i have tried everything and I give up, I dont know what else to do. Any suggestions???? 

nushikitty
Active Member



USA
938 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 08:49:34 
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Oh my gosh, that is such a personal decision. All I can tell you is that you will know in your heart if it's Pickles' time. This is a very, very difficult decision. If you think that she is suffering and her quality of life has significantly diminished, then to consider euthanasia is everything BUT selfish. Ending their life peacefully when their time has come is the last act of love we can give them. She has had a long, wonderful life with you and she has obviously been very well taken care of and very loved. This may sound silly but try to read Pickles, look into her eyes. Sometimes our pets are trying to tell us something, we just need to try and listen. I had a cat years ago that developed liver cancer and one morning he had problems jumping off the bed. I picked him up and looked at him and I just knew it was time. Only you can make that call and I am so, so sorry you are going through this. Please know that we are ALL here for you no matter what your decision ends up being. Hugs to you and Pickles.

Laurel 


prettykitty
Junior Member



305 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 10:32:55 
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You posted this in the behavioral section, when this is actually a medical problem. Your kitty is "constant howling and fixation with her water", is due to her thyoid problem. She needs to somehow get her medication daily, it's very immportant to control the thyroid with medication, or else she will develop more serious problems and will die. There are some tricky ways to pill a cat, however. All cats are diffrent and what works for one may not work for another. So here are a few diffrent methods I have used over the years to pill my cats: pill pockets, here's the website to find them in your area. www.pillpockets.com

1. pill pockets, (see above for website)
2. crushing pills and putting them in wet food or baby food.
3. pill poppers, ask your vet if they have one you can purchase.
4. Pharmacists--have them putting the pills in a liquid form, a bit pricey but, if your kitty is hard to pill it may be a blessing. Also, cheaper in the longer run if she gets sicker from not getting her medication on a daily basis.
5. Discuss with your vet, there is another from of this medication that you can apply to your kitties ear.

I hope one of these will work for you!! Best of luck! Let us know....Anna

In loving memory of my sweet little Penny....
5/90-3/18/03

It's about compassionate, responsible pet ownership..please spay & neuter all pets, and contact your local Humane Society on ways you can help a shelter in your area.

www.thecatspalace.com 


kittylover4ever
Starting Member



USA
18 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 10:54:37 
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I agree with Nushikitty, it is such a personal decision. I had a cat "frisky" who was 15 years old when I had to make the decision. I would come and visit my mother, who had frisky and he would be in such bad shape that I would cry just watching how he would act. It got to the point that he didn't even take care of himself, laying in his own feces and urine. I had to shave all of his hair off just because he would lay in it and his hair would get so matted. At the time I never thought about taking him to the vet to see if there was medication that I could have given him. All I know is that he was not the same Frisky as I once knew. So finally in November of 2003, I made the final call and had him put to sleep. It was to toughest decision, but one I will not regret because he is not suffering anymore. And like your cat, my cat was also hit by a car, barely nicked him, but caused his face to go in, he had blood transfusions and we didn't even know if he would live. Every now and then I will find a picture of him and remember the one cat that made me love cats!

Jody 


Ragdoll Mom
Active Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 21:53:06 
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I'm very sorry you're facing this situation and none of us wants to think about our cats reaching end of life. I think your vet may be a good person to help you make the decision when it is time to help your cat pass on. The vet can tell you from an honest, professional standpoint what his/her examination finds and whether they are in pain that you are not noticing, or that dementia has set in and their quality of life is no longer present. The vets I have used have been good reliable sources for an honest opinion as to when it is time to help an animal pass. Again, I am very sorry you are in this situation, and hugs. 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 01:59:40 
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Thankyou all for your messages. I have made an appointment with my vet for monday during which I will discuss all options. With her medication beleive me, I have tried everything. One of my worries is that there is something wrong that I am just not noticing. Putting her to sleep is the very last resort. At the same token, I will never let her suffer un necessarily. 


nushikitty
Active Member



USA
938 Posts
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 06:40:52 
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When you go to the vet discuss alternatives to the pill. My Herman has his meds suspended into a tuna-flavored liquid at a compounding center. It does not cost me any more to have this done (except I have it shipped to my house once a month for $5). They can also put meds into a gel formula that goes in the ear. I think that this can be done with any medication, but I'm not 100% sure on that. It's definitely worth asking. Herman was a bear to get pills into and he needs his medicine twice a day. Now he can't wait for it because he considers it a treat! Good luck, my thoughts will be with you both!

Laurel 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 08:00:19 
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Laurel,
Thankyou, I have printed out your message to show my vet. Frankly, what you have said is the best option for me and pickles. I do not care about the cost, my husband and I both agree that with our girls, we took them on and they are our children. We will do whatever it takes to keep them healthy and well but will never let them suffer unnecessarily. We both agree that adopting a pet is like adopting a child. The difference between life and death is not a financial decision, its only a humane decision. 


Ragdoll Mom
Active Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 11:23:58 
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Cat Crazy, you think like the rest of us here in that our pets are our children. I truly hope the vet can help you figure out a solution. Please let us know what happens as we do care, and posting your situation may help others here. Hang in there and hugs. 


shengmei
Junior Member



USA
444 Posts
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 01:59:38 
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I don't think putting her to sleep is the best idea. You are always going to wonder for eternity if you had put her to sleep too soon. What I would suggest is to stop all medications since medications have side effects and you want your kitty to go without much suffering so let the cat take its natural course as God had intended it to be, give the kitty everything she would ever wanted and let her pass away peacefully in her sleep. Side effects from medications sometimes can be more horrible than the disease itself. You can never know for sure.

Also, if you are still using a bowl for kitty's water, it is really about time to get a decent water fountain. Kitty deserves better.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 06:54:16 
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shengmei, I appreciate your comments but I do not agree. As much as I appreciate and respect god and gods will, modern science and medicines play an important part in all of our everyday lives. If it wasn't for modern medicines, 50 years old would still be the average lifespans for humans and our darling animals would be lucky to live past five. I do not want to put her to sleep and as other members have commented, I will know when she is ready. I knew when pickles's younger sister patch had to go and as hard as it was, I knew the decision was right as she was suffering. With pickles, modern medicine will control and ease her condition. I also know that if I could get her medication into her somehow she will be fine. Sorry but I choose this method any time whether it be animal or human. As for water fountain, tried and failed. I am dealing with an obessive compulsive type situation here. Her condition causes dementia and obsessive symptoms. she has become very choosy over what food bowl she eats from and what and where her water bowl is. What I have not mentioned is that her water bowl, must be glass, and has to be in the shower bay in the bathroom. If it is not in glass, she howls, if it is not inside the shower cubicle she howls. OK I realise that we made the mistake by giving in to her demands but hey, she has given us over 19 years of loyal loving companionship. We are trying to make the time she has left as comfortable as possible. It maybe days or weeks or years but we will do whatever it takes as long as she is comfortable. My biggest worry is that I cannot tell at this moment if she is suffering.I know her condition is slowly killing her but again if I got her medication into her it will releive everything. Maybe I am blind to it, which is why I asked the initial question on this forum. I fully appreciate each and every answer I have received on this topic. I am so glad I found this forum as it is wonderful to interact with others like me out there. Thankyou to you all. 


shengmei
Junior Member



USA
444 Posts
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 17:07:37 
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I am really sorry about what I said, Cat Crazy. I did not mean to say it so strongly.

I am trained in the sciences of biochemistry and genetics. From some of the latest reseaches I had read myself I had realized that euthanasia is actually an extremely painful and agonizing procedure for pets. Pets do not show the pain they are under since they are also under very heavy anastasia that masks their expressions. During my training to become a geneticist, I have gradually come to realize that most modern medicines are made to block receptors so the receptors would not bind to specific enzymes. Those receptors are the proteins that bind specific drugs with high affinity and trigger intracellular changes influencing the behaviour of cells. Drug receptors are generally thought to be receptors for some endogenous substance not otherwise specified.

I grew up in a dormatory o*overnment hospital owned by the Taiwanese government. My father was the head of surgery. Growing up, I had seen many of his fellow colleagues make fatal mistakes, and the ones who make the most mistakes are often trained in America.

I believe that side effects from many drugs could seriously decrease the quality of life, human or animal-wise. My father was a strong believer of Western medicine (and he was a very good doctor, too) but I had chosen to not follow his footsteps since I had by now realized that Western medicine has its problems and the side effects from the drugs can sometimes make life so miserable that not taking drugs would actually maintain the quality of life. It is funny that growing up my father would never allow me taking Chinese herbal medicine and now I am a strong believer of holistic medical care. 

Also, mistakes with medications kill thousands of people worldwide so I am not so sure that we are as advanced as we think when it comes to modern medicine and technology. God had created much. We had understood very little.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 02:15:43 
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Shengmei, I sorry I reacted that way. Reading your initial message again, I think I over reacted. I found your last post very interesting. 

Just too let everybody know. I have appreciated everyones kind words and advice. We went to the vet last night, unfortuneatly fate has made the decision for us. Sadly, blood tests revealed that pickles is in the beginnings of renal failure which at her age, there is nothing we can do. At the vets recommendation, we have stopped trying to medicate her and have brought her home to spend her last days with us. Vet says it will be at least several days, maybe a couple of weeks before she will need to be put to sleep and that we will know when it is time. Our household is very sad, but we celebrate the wonderful 19 years that we have shared with our girl and are doing our best to make the rest of her days as comfortable as possible.
Again thankyou to you all for your wonderful support. I will post a photo for you all just as soon as I can figure out how to???? 


nushikitty
Active Member



USA
938 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 06:09:26 
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I am so sorry to hear of this. My heart is with you and I will keep you in my thoughts. I am glad you will be able to spend this time with her. She has had a very long life and has obviously been very loved. I do want to tell you that euthanasia is NOT painful. Shengmei is wrong about this. Unfortunately I am familiar with this procedure. I am sure when the time comes that your vet will explain exactly what will happen. Just to try to put you at ease, I will try to briefly explain the procedure. Anesthetic is administered intravenously into the foreleg and the pet slips into sleep. The agent is designed to quickly and painlessly terminate nerve transmission. When there are no nerve impulses, there can be no thought, sensation, movement or pain. Be assured that the process is as painless and quick and humane as possible. Loss of consciousness occurs within six to twelve seconds when the pet will fall into a deep sleep. Breathing stops within one or two minutes; the heart stops beating shortly afterwards and all movement ceases. The muscles become totally relaxed. The muscles may twitch, this is pure nervous reflex caused by chemicals stored in the nerve endings being released. Many animals evacuate their bladder or bowel. This again is all reflex, and does not mean that your pet is alive or conscious. You can be absolutely sure that there is no kinder and more humane way of ending your pet's suffering. I'm sorry if this was difficult to read but I do not want you to go into this thinking Pickles will be in pain at the end. All of us feel for you and I wish you strength in the upcoming days/weeks.


Laurel 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 06:26:39 
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Laurel, thankyou very much. The last post you sent, though admittedly I have tears reading it, has given me comfort. I am dreading the day and would hate to think that by trying to do the right thing by her has only caused her more pain. Admittedly, knowing now that she is in her final days, as hard it it is, we have at least time to plan the most appropiate resting place for her. Thankyou again I have found your advice very helpful throughout all of my posts and I am pleased that your girl came through her vet check well.
Kind Regards
Karen 


peppergurl
Starting Member



35 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 08:30:16 
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Dear Karen

I am sorry you are going through this. I am feeling a bit teary reading your posts. Teary because of the pain I imagine this is causing you and teary with good feelings about how obviously well loved and cared for your Pickles has been. I totally understand the feeling that your babies are your children. I am unable to have children myself and feel a tremendous bond and responsibility to my cat as well. 

Please dont doubt any of the decisions you have made for Pickles. You undoubtably care for her extremely well and have held her best interest in the forefront of you mind. When you think of the joy she has brought to you please also think of what a wonderful 19 years she has had becasue of you.

I am sending you my prayers and hope your last days with Pickles are filled with lots of love and peace.

Also,my cat will only drink water if it is in a cup on the cofee table. My friend said to me "Arent you just encouraging bad behavior by putting her water there for her?"
I thought "PLease you obviously dont know cats!!" 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 05:11:00 
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Thankyou peppergurl, good to know someone else out there understands. There are many people who think those like us are strange and obsessive but then as I say to them, "put yourself in my situation". 
Pickles is doing well, she is quiet as expected but is getting spoilt with all of her favourite treats. To quote my vet when he phoned me with the test results "Forget her medicine and dont worry about diet, give her anything she wants". Needless to say I am following this prescription totally. I woke up during the night last night to find her snuggled beside me which is not unusual but strangely, she had one paw tucked inside my hand. My other girl Luka (6) is also very quiet and has withdrawn by taking to spend most of the time in the linen cupboard. The two dont get on too well as a rule but I suspect she knows and is reacting. I have been giving her treats also and making sure I give her heaps of attention so she doesn't feel left out.

OK, cup of water on the table??? I would love to see that! Isn't it wonderful the personalities and quirks that these wonderful creatures develop. I believe that the more you love and interact with cats, the more that they develop their personalities. I have had three of my own over the years since leaving home, and each one have had totally different personalities. I wish that I could read their minds sometimes. 


shengmei
Junior Member



USA
444 Posts
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 09:21:28 
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Cat Crazy, it sounds to me that you have a wonderful vet. I wish that I could find good vets like you. I think kitty is very well-off considering that kitty has you as an owner and a caring vet that does not push medications until the very end (perscriptions are very lucrative).

I agree with Nushikitty that euthansia, if done correctly with enough anesthetic, is painless. However, I have read way too many articles and reports about hospitals that cheap out and do not give the pets sufficient anesthetic. 

Pets would then suffer,especially in the notorious city shelters. In that case, the pet will be in pain when it dies. If you do decide to go through with euthansia make sure your vet give your kitty enough anesthetic

My boyfriend had two golden retrivers. Four and half years ago, my boyfriend's dog had uncontrollable seizures and was foaming at the mouth. They took him to several hospitals, each one recommended the dog to be euthanized since the dog was already extremely old.

My boyfriend's family are pro-life people and just could not do it, so they just brought the dog back and gave the dog whatever it wants. The dog recovered and he is in very good shape now.

My boyfriend had another dog who was beautiful, playful, and vivacious. Every single one of us expected her to live a long, long life since she had so much energy. On January 2004, they took her in for a heartguard booster and they was unaware that there was a bad batch of heartguard out on the market that had already caused 500 dogs to die (later I read it on the news). If the confirmed death toll was 500 and sweet Sunny was never on the official death toll, then the real death toll must be much higer. 

The dog died shortly after in her sleep of congenial heart failure and my boyfriend's family was extremely devestated. We could not take her to an emergency hospital because we did not expect her to die in our sleep. They did not see it coming. The night before she passed in her sleep she was jumping up and down, wiggling and wagging her tail like crazy. She was a happy dog all the way to the end.....then all the sudden, she was dead. 

It was extremely ironic seeing the note posted on the refrigerator reminding us to take her to get the heartguard booster after we had buried her. We cried a lot and surprisingly the dog's nurse had cried for her, too. 

We finally found a very caring hospital for our sweet Sunny and even so we could not prevent the hospital from giving us an booster from batch of heartguard medication that the company had messed up. (My cat, Sunshine, was named in her honor)

Not everything a vet says or does can be taken as complete truth. God had given us many things and events we do not understand. People used to think neural cells (neurons) do not regenerate once they die but there are some new research coming out that says they do regerate at a regular level. Don't give up yet. Kitty still has a pretty good chance of recovery.

Sheng-Mei Yeh / Genetics Graduate Student / Texas A&M University 
[Sunshine Tiger Micah Yeh] AND [Jade Moonlight Jabez Yeh] BOTH BORN O8/13/04
[Melody Sunrise Hezekiah Yeh] BORN May 2004 


nushikitty
Active Member



USA
938 Posts
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 10:15:46 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said, it is an extremely personal decision. I certainly hope that Pickles' life expectancy exceeds that which the vet estimated. But we certainly don't want our cats suffering. Only we, as their guardians, can gauge when the time is right. I lost a cat to cancer. Yes I could have subjected him to surgery after surgery. But I was terrified he would die on the operating table and I didn't want that. I had rescued him, given him two wonderful years and when he was sick I did the only loving thing I could - I let him live as long as he could with the illness until prolonging his life was only benefitting me and my heart. Miracles certainly do happen, and I will absolutely pray for one for Pickles. But CRF in a 19 year old cat is very serious - and while it certainly can't hurt to hope I think what Karen is doing is absolutely 100% the right thing. Enjoy this time, and when the day comes when you feel her quality of life has deteriorated then to end the pain and suffering is the only humane thing to do. Hang in there, Karen.

Laurel 


Sassy99
Starting Member



USA
6 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 17:23:11 
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Is Pickles still here or has she slipped over to the Rainbow Bridge?
I know exactly how you feel, right now I have my 13 year old cat Pumpkin dying of liver disease. She refuses to eat her food for her liver disease and stopped eating altogher. Finally the dr gave her some pills to get her appetite going again, and it did work, but he told me to just take her home and enjoy her and give her any kind of food she would eat. So thats what I have been doing. That was 2 months ago. I think she has gained a little bit of weight back and I could care less if she wants to eat food that is $1 a can, that is what she will get, just to keep her going. 


Cat Crazy
New Member



Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 02:25:05 
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Sassy99, thankyou for asking. Pickles is still with us. Its been exactly a week, almost to the minute since the final diagnosis. She is doing well, seems to have gained a little weight and has quietened down alot. Her appetite is good, though never once have I known her not to want food. We also discovered last monday night that her cateracts had got bad quickly and part of the reason for her constant howling at night was because she is 'night blind" Now we leave lights on around the house all night so she is comfortable. I hope pumpkin continues to improve for you. I know that it would be a miricle if pickles does but hey, she has beaten the odds on several occasions over the past years. Who knows???? 

shengmei
Junior Member



USA
444 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 16:35:25 
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I am so glad that Pickles is doing well.
Personally, I would recommend nettle extract for his problems.


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## Gudewife (Jun 27, 2004)

If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you possibly post things like that as URL links rather than pasted text? It's very difficult to scroll through the text and make sense out of a thread from another forum (one that I'm not familar with) without the formatting that should be there. I don't mind reading things, but my eyes fuzz out when I get that much plain text thrown at me all in one go. Thanks!


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## Petrafan4life79 (Sep 24, 2004)

Could you maybe check with the humane society and see what they charge? A guy from work had a cat that had to be put down, years ago. This was before they came out with injections for euthanasia. He found out all they did at the time was gas them.  So, he took his kitty home in its carrier and let it die by exhaust in the garage.  I lost respect for him at first cause I didn't know the whole story. All I knew at the time was that he had killed his cat at home with exhaust. He explained it to me and it made more sense. His thinking was if they're gonna gas it, why not do it himself and bury the body on his property? 

Anyway, now that they do euthanising by needle, maybe the humane society charges less?


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## Ianthe (Jun 7, 2004)

You're doing the right thing...at the vet I work for there is certainly no extra charge if the owner wants t stay with the animal!! THere is a charge for the euthanization, and the cremation burial ( a cheaper price for the regular one, and a pricier one for if they want the ashes privately creamated and returned to them).


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## emrldsky (Aug 31, 2004)

Ianthe said:


> You're doing the right thing...at the vet I work for there is certainly no extra charge if the owner wants t stay with the animal!! THere is a charge for the euthanization, and the cremation burial ( a cheaper price for the regular one, and a pricier one for if they want the ashes privately creamated and returned to them).


I've never had to euthanize an animal, but when Rain died they offered me two way to cremate, exactly as you mention Ianthe.

It would be taking advantage of someone's grief to charge them MORE to be there when their beloved (pet) passed.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Gudewife said:


> If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you possibly post things like that as URL links rather than pasted text? It's very difficult to scroll through the text and make sense out of a thread from another forum (one that I'm not familar with) without the formatting that should be there. I don't mind reading things, but my eyes fuzz out when I get that much plain text thrown at me all in one go. Thanks!


I agree, Gudewife. However, for the benefit of all members reading this, the rules state that we do not promote other cat forums. I have deleted the name of the forum.


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