# Is this Animal Cruelty?



## bouchie11982 (Sep 8, 2007)

I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats. Some people believe declawing is an act of animal cruelty. I don't think it is because you are having a professional vet declaw the cat. But it is cosmetic....what does everyone think? I do not think it is animal cruelty...i just don't want my furniture torn up!


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Have you read about declawing and realize that it is the equivalent of amputating all your fingers and toes at the first knuckle? The opportunity for the surgery to be botched is significant. Many cats live in pain for the rest of their lives, many develop arthritis in their feet. It sometimes causes litterbox issues (litter is uncomfortable to walk on), it sometimes causes biting issues (the only way they have to defend themselves).

There are much better alternatives; teaching them proper use of a scratching post, clipping the nails on a regular basis, Soft Paws nail covers...to name a few. 

Here is a website for you to review, please do so before considering declawing:

http://www.declawing.com/


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

You will find this is a subject everyone feels very strongly about, one way or the other... Here, I think I can safely say that a lot of people feel a particular way, namely that it IS cruelty to the cat, not to mention unnecessary in many cases (unless you have an animal that is really a danger for himself or others, for instance).

If you want to have a truly informed opinion, I would recommand checking out these two sites:
http://www.amby.com/cat_site/declaw.html
http://www.declawing.com/

They include complete facts about the procedure, and the opinions of veterinarians too.


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## bouchie11982 (Sep 8, 2007)

hmmm...it certainly does give me something to think about. my cat only has his fronts declawed. but he is so used to having no front claws, he got them done when he was very young (he'll be 19 soon). he has been an indoor cat, and was planned when we got him. 
but it shows me a new view on things. 
thanks for the links!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

If you have ever met someone with an amputated limb, they will tell you that they still have sensations from the part that was amputated. Imagine scratching in a litter box with toes that feel pain.  

Dr. Jean said that vets offer it as a matter of course with one motive in mind, the money. I hope you'll reconsider; I know you love cats.


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## catnip (Aug 19, 2003)

I think only it's fair to point out that the majority of the anti-declaw crowd merely perpetuates the horror stories they've heard elsewhere and has very little experience in living with actual declawed cats.

I also wish folks would quit treating Dr. Jean like the gospel of Veteranary medicine just because she posts on this board.

(sorry, Jeanie. it just bugs me)

i'll go to the corner now


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

catnip said:


> I think only it's fair to point out that the majority of the anti-declaw crowd merely perpetuates the horror stories they've heard elsewhere and has very little experience in living with actual declawed cats.


And one thing I would like to point out is, because your declawed cat acts "normally" and does not exhibit any of the most horrible symptoms of pain you can find on those websites, does not mean he is not in pain.

One of my closest friend inherited his sister's cat, that she got declawed without even trying to train him to scratch a post, and then dumped because he would not use the litter box because of the pain in his toes (but she insisted he was stubborn, and took revenge on her because she worked too many hours).

Sundance is a very friendly, well-adjusted cat. He is not a biter, he did not hide in shock for days after being declawed. But five years later, he still cannot scratch in the litterbox, no matter what litter is used. He will pee in it, but goes number too in the bathtub, without fail. He also walks very gingerly, like he is walking on eggs. Of course he can never a full back stretch because he can't dig his claws in anything to exercize traction on his back and spine, so he developed arthritis, and will wince whenever you try to pet his back.

Do you think it was worth it? Because he did not freak out and become mentally deranged by the sheer pain and defencelessness, it was worth doing it? Would you amputate your dog of all its last digits to prevent your floors from being scratched? I can't believe people take the subject of animal pain so lightly. Just try amputating the tip of one of your fingers, for no reason, see how warm and fuzzy it will make you feel.


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

Another thing I forgot to mention is, several members here posted their story in the recent thread about declawing, all of them regretting that they did it without knowing any better. Is that factual enough knowledge for you Catnip?

http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t ... =declawing


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## catnip (Aug 19, 2003)

...and we're off !!

:twisted: 

when did I say my cats were declawed?


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

catnip said:


> I think only it's fair to point out that the majority of the anti-declaw crowd merely perpetuates the horror stories they've heard elsewhere and has very little experience in living with actual declawed cats.


And so that you don't think that I am perpetuating myths I will add that I grew up knowing several declawed cats and all of them were biters. Would they have been that way anyway, who knows...they were declawed as kittens. Back then it was just a matter of course that you had your cat spayed/neutered and declawed....combo package.

I have also been privy to the records at my local Humane Society and saw just how many cats surrendered for litterbox issues and biting were declawed. The numbers were significantly higher than non-declawed.


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

bouchie11982 said:


> I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats. Some people believe declawing is an act of animal cruelty. I don't think it is because you are having a professional vet declaw the cat. But it is cosmetic....what does everyone think? I do not think it is animal cruelty...i just don't want my furniture torn up!


I think is insane and I would never do that to Tiger, he is a cat, cats have claws, I don't think it'd be fair to declawing a real Tiger, can't you imagine?
:roll:


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

catnip said:


> ...and we're off !!
> 
> :twisted:
> 
> when did I say my cats were declawed?


See, that is a very constructive and responsible attitude. Especially on a subject as light as this one. I'm not surprised.

I also did not say your cats were declawed, but saying that we are basically gullible people just passing on horror stories without the facts to back our opinions off was inaccurate at best, and pretty offensive too. You reap what you sow, don't act surprised.

Edit to add: when I said "your cat", I spoke in a generic way, addressing everybody. 
Also, I don't condemn the people who did it because they did not know any better, and are sorely regretting now.
What makes me mad is the irresponsible, deliberately rude stance you took about this, Steve.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I always feel like I have to stick up for the few members we have who have declawed cats. They had their reasons and shouldn't be condemned.

I really don't want this thread to turn bad. Feelings get hurt, and it makes me sad. 

I think Bouchie has a good idea of what some people think of it, and some good information to read.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

I'm only just now posting in this thread because I think 'most everyone here knows how atrongly I feel about declawing. 

I'm going to shut up now before I have to go to the corner.


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## Kittys Mom (May 7, 2004)

gunterkat said:


> I'm going to shut up now before I have to go to the corner.


Too late. Go to the corner.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

We understand there are drastic circumstances. Heather's cat had to be declawed because he was actually wounding her, and she felt terrible about it. 

Steve, Dr. Jean's specialty is cats, and her name is very well known. She has great credentials. It is and was a privilege to have her as a member. Sometimes I quote my own vet...more often, in fact. She knows my cats. 

That said, I know that this is a very touchy subject, so let's try to be polite to one another. If there are statistics representing the other side, Steve, by all means post a link. Everyone doesn't have to agree. However, I think anyone considering declawing should know the possible outcome.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Oh darn! I'll chime in...
I do think it is cruel. 
I did grow up with declawed cats and, fortunately, they had no noticeable ill effects from the procedure (other than Mittens who bled all over the house for two days!  ) But, that isn't always the case. The fact is, when you declaw your cat there IS a RISK of behavioral problems cropping up and medical problems like arthritis. Not EVERY cat will have a problem but SOME will. Honestly, for me that's not even the issue. It's just cruel and inhumane, plain and simple and, unless there are extenuating circumstances, completely unnecessary.
I would never declaw mine. I do keep their nails clipped and they have not so much as snagged any of my furniture. So, I know it's possible to live with nice furniture and clawed cats at the same time.
There are other alternatives like Soft Paws if your are really unable to train your cat not to scratch up the furniture.


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

bouchie11982 said:


> I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats. Some people believe declawing is an act of animal cruelty. I don't think it is because you are having a professional vet declaw the cat. But it is cosmetic....what does everyone think? I do not think it is animal cruelty...i just don't want my furniture torn up!


Declawing is banned in my country and there is a very good reason for that.

Its recognised as a cruel and vile practice.

And - you know its not all that difficult (in my experience) to train a cat to use a scratching post. Toby had apparently ruined his previous owners sofa -but all I did was buy a nice post, spray it with catnip and spray my soft furniture with cat repellant spray.

It worked immediately. Toby only ever sharpens his claws on his scratching post and his cat tree.


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## lotsofsmoggies (Dec 10, 2007)

I live in sunny Britain and this declawing practice makes me sick. Cats have claws for a reason, not just for us to remove. If you like your furniture that much don't have a cat. Because all that I've read about pain and surgery gone wrong should put everyone off it for life. I'm not saying you don't love cats etc.. but if I believe we invite these animals into our home so we should make allowances for the damage and limit it in other ways. I have a carpet on my floor for the pleasure of my cats and their claws. I have a scratching post but this arrived only this year and my cats do use it even though 90% are over two years old. Cats should be left as nature intended.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

bouchie11982 said:


> I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats. Some people believe declawing is an act of animal cruelty. I don't think it is because you are having a professional vet declaw the cat. But it is cosmetic....what does everyone think? I do not think it is animal cruelty...i just don't want my furniture torn up!


"But it is cosmetic...." Cosmetic?!?!?!?!? 8O Since when is cutting off the first joint of fingers and/or toes _cosmetic_??? grrrr.... 
As Allie has said, there is good reason for declawing being illegal in Britain. It's cruel, barbaric, and inhumane.  
It's not hard to teach a cat to scratch on appropriate surfaces.

just had to get that off my chest. I'll go back to the corner now.


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## fuzzyfeathers (Dec 9, 2007)

I don't consider de-clawing a cosmetic surgery, it is a conveinence surgery for people. My personal opinion is it should be considered cruelty. Many surgeries for animals should be considered cruelty, and many are no longer being done because vets are realizing it is cruel. Tail docking and ear cropping on dogs are a prime example. Yes, there are still vets that do these procedures, but there are just as many NOT doing them. Given the course of time I feel that many more will soon see the light and stop lining their purses with the blood of their patients.


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## moarias1984 (Oct 20, 2006)

bouchie11982 said:


> I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats.


Just out of curiosity, do you mean your friends?
I just ask because the MSPCA is Springfield does not support declawing. 

I think this is one of those subjects that once you do the research you learn that it is not a cosmetic process. 

Are you having clawing problems? When my kitten starts trying to claw at the sofa anything else, we just pick her up, take her to the scratching post and she continues scratching away. There's so many alternatives to dealing with this sort of behavior.


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## Heather102180 (Nov 19, 2003)

As far as declawing goes...I think desperate times call for desperate measures. And as, Jeanie stated, I have had one of my cats declawed. It was either that or get him put to sleep and I do not regret the decision at all. He was very viscious and the only reason I had him declawed is beause the vet refused to de-tooth him!! :? 

Then, my other cat I got, came declawed already. I feel if you are out looking for a cat and don't have the time to truly train one to use a scratching post, well then you better find one that has been previosuly declawed.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Bouchie, I'm sure Gunterkat was not growling at you, but at the thought of the procedure. He really loves cats, as I'm sure you do.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

Jeanie said:


> Bouchie, I'm sure Gunterkat was not growling at you, but at the thought of the procedure. He really loves cats, as I'm sure you do.


Thank you for clarifying that for me, Jeanie  I was going to post some pictures of declawing surgery, but I couldn't bear to look. The procedure is really horrific.  
There are many alternatives to declawing. And rescues often have already declawed kitties who need a loving home available for adoption.
Check out www.petfinder.com.


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## mykittytoodles (Feb 2, 2006)

My Toodles is declawed and when I had this procedure done, it was offered as a combo kinda deal when I had her spayed at 8 months old. Had I known what was really done during this procedure, I would have never had it done. I should have found out more about it before I had it done, but I didnt and I cant change that now. Blessedly, Toodles has not had any of the problems that can result from a cat being declawed. That certainly does not negate the fact that one of these issues may still arise. Now that I know what is involved in this surgery, I would not have in done to any other cat I own. Sometimes I wonder if Toodles would be a more loving cat if I had not had her declawed. She prefers my husband to me!  

Now for a little confession .... I have always kept it to myself that Toodles is declawed because I didnt want anyone here to have any animosity towards me for my un-informed decision.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

mykittytoodles said:


> Now for a little confession .... I have always kept it to myself that Toodles is declawed because I didnt want anyone here to have any animosity towards me for my un-informed decision.


That's why I always post something like this: 



> I always feel like I have to stick up for the few members we have who have declawed cats. They had their reasons and shouldn't be condemned.


I didn't know until I joined this Forum what was involved, either. When I was a kid, you got a kitty, had it fixed and declawed and brought it home. Package deal. 

Now we know better.


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## camel24j (Jan 12, 2007)

i have always thought that declawing was bad but when skeeters nails grew into his pads i was torn and the only solution seemed to be to declaw him so i did i didn't want to but i didn't see an alternative so far he has had no behavioral problems but he is sensitive and dose not jump any more so i know he is in some pain and i feel awful but i know the nails in his pads was painful to. skeeter is 8yrs old i had this done only a yr ago so my poor boy. but its done and i will do anything to keep him happy and healthy.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

mykittytoodles said:


> My Toodles is declawed and when I had this procedure done, it was offered as a combo kinda deal when I had her spayed at 8 months old. Had I known what was really done during this procedure, I would have never had it done. I should have found out more about it before I had it done, but I didnt and I cant change that now. Blessedly, Toodles has not had any of the problems that can result from a cat being declawed. That certainly does not negate the fact that one of these issues may still arise. Now that I know what is involved in this surgery, I would not have in done to any other cat I own. Sometimes I wonder if Toodles would be a more loving cat if I had not had her declawed. She prefers my husband to me!
> 
> Now for a little confession .... I have always kept it to myself that Toodles is declawed because I didnt want anyone here to have any animosity towards me for my un-informed decision.


I had my Mittens declawed in ignorance. Now I know better. he limps, acts in pain in his front declawed feet, will bite, has liter box issues and marking issues. The remorse I feel for doing this to him is deep. I wish I had found catforum and been better educated. 

I adopted a second cat ~ Mz Tess who has her claws. She started to use my irreplacable very expensive Iranian rug to scratch on. I rolled it up and put it away. Id much rather have Mz Tess and live without out my rug for a few years. I found she loves to scratch big phone books. So that is her scratching area! 

Also note when Mittens is stressed and marking the house he pisses on the phone book! Luckily they are deleivered as often as junk mail so I never run out of free scratching post!



catnip said:


> I think only it's fair to point out that the majority of the anti-declaw crowd merely perpetuates the horror stories they've heard elsewhere and has very little experience in living with actual declawed cats


I hope all the posters with declaw cats help dispell your belief they heard it else where. Were all living with the experiece and results. :roll: Or do you just like to pimp us! :twisted:  :?


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

melysion said:


> bouchie11982 said:
> 
> 
> > I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats. Some people believe declawing is an act of animal cruelty. I don't think it is because you are having a professional vet declaw the cat. But it is cosmetic....what does everyone think? I do not think it is animal cruelty...i just don't want my furniture torn up!
> ...


It is illegal in Spain too!!

http://www.best-cat-art.com/cat-declawing.html


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

> Now for a little confession .... I have always kept it to myself that Toodles is declawed because I didnt want anyone here to have any animosity towards me for my un-informed decision.


I don't think anyone here would hold that against you!
The sad fact is, a lot of vets still push declawing as a routine procedure because there is money to be made and most people do not realize what is involved. I think they also underestimate the owners ability or willingness to do the alternatives and it's just easier to say, declaw. 
I was lucky that I worked at a hospital that did not do declaws unless under extreme circumstance. We educated people when they requested them and 9 out of 10 times they decided not to do it. A few went elsewhere to have it done. We could have made so much money on declaws if we'd done them but, thankfully, the 4 vets at the practice were more interested in the animals welfare than the owners furniture or convenience.
I also believe that, one day, delcawing will go the way of tail docking and ear cropping but it will take some changes in the veterinary community. I look forward to it. In the meantime, all we can do is educate people and hope that they decide against it.


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## mykittytoodles (Feb 2, 2006)

I just wanted to say that my confession was not meant to imply that I really thought anyone on this forum would treat me differently if they knew Toodles was declawed, I just know that declawing is something that many people on here feel strongly about-so I just chose to keep it to myself, esp. after I found out what that operation really involves.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

When I had Sam neutered the vet and his staff really pushed to have him declawed, too, as a "package deal". I had to be very firm with them, and finally even had to imply that I'd sue them if they did that to my Sam, just to get them to quit badgering me about declawing my cat.  

I'm sure there are still vets out there who hard sell declawing. They'll tell you "it makes them better pets" or "what if your nieces and nephews visit and he claws them", or "what about your furniture", and many other excuses. The worst thing is that it's not out of concern for your cat or you, it's all about the dollars.


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

mykittytoodles said:


> I just wanted to say that my confession was not meant to imply that I really thought anyone on this forum would treat me differently if they knew Toodles was declawed, I just know that declawing is something that many people on here feel strongly about-so I just chose to keep it to myself, esp. after I found out what that operation really involves.


I still like ya


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## bouchie11982 (Sep 8, 2007)

ok let me say this first.....please do not attack me because I didnt think declawing was cruelty. My geriatric cat only has his FRONT paws declawed. He still has his rear claws. And give me a break...i was 5 or 6 years old when we got the cats....it was my parents choice of declawing the cat because she didn't want her furniture mangled up. Butterscothc hasn't had any problems whatsoever. He will be 19 in february and he still "claws at" the edge of the rug or on the furnace vents (for whatever reason he does that, itchiness?) he certainly doesnt walk as if he's on eggshells. he has NEVER been a biter and not aggressive whatsoever.
and i am not looking for a cat, but sometime in the future i will be onc ei get my own place and i already know i'd liekto get a semi adult cat, between the age 2-4 years old from the animal shelter. 
i don't have a weak stomach, and i've never seen the procedure of declawing a cat. 




moarias1984 said:


> bouchie11982 said:
> 
> 
> > I got mixed reviews by some locals (in my living area) about declawing cats.
> ...


oh no this girl i know she goes to some veterinary school and a topic came up about declawing is more of a cosmetic. the topic was originally about this guy cutting his put bull's ears (the flappy part) off....how it is animal cruelty and such, so the dog will look "meaner", and it just turned towards declawing and spaying and neutering animals, if that is even a cruelty thing.


marie73 said:


> mykittytoodles said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't know until I joined this Forum what was involved, either. When I was a kid, you got a kitty, had it fixed and declawed and brought it home. Package deal.


exactly


years ago poodles got their tail cut off because that was the "look" same with some dobermans. my grandparents got a toy poodle from a puppy mill and they had her tail cut to make her look good. but that was in the early 1990's. i mean no doubt cutting an animal to make it look good, (like the pitbull's ears or the tail cutting), no doubt that is cruelty. you have to put the dog on painkillers.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

> ...you have to put the dog on painkillers.


Just FYI, declawed cats are put on heavy duty pain meds too.


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

nanook said:


> > ...you have to put the dog on painkillers.
> 
> 
> Just FYI, declawed cats are put on heavy duty pain meds too.


And declawing is actually considered as the standard for "severe pain" in veterinary schools... they tested pain meds taking this as the top of the pain scale.

Also, I don't think anyone here would question the fact that docking a dog's tail or cutting their ears is cruelty. 
And if declawing was all that great, then why would there be so many declawed cats in shelters and rescues?


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Bouchie, I'm curious as to why you started this thread. I believe you know Don - I'm assuming from his other cat forum, where I'm pretty sure this has been discussed thoroughly and frowned upon. 

Just wondering.... :?:


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## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

No-ones attacking you personally bouchie11982 - you asked our opinions and we are giving it thats all


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## AddFran (Jul 10, 2004)

catnip said:


> I think only it's fair to point out that the majority of the anti-declaw crowd merely perpetuates the horror stories they've heard elsewhere and has very little experience in living with actual declawed cats.


I feel this is very inaccurate. I declawed Franny before I knew any better and am able to see a VERY clear disadvantage that she is faced with. Not to mention the phantom clawing she does nearly everywhere, the crying noise she makes whenever jumping down from something, the biter she has turned into and the litterbox problems I have started to have with her as she ages and her paws are starting to show signs of arthritis. 

I have also done a lot of volunteering and rescue work and I can say that the majority of adult cats that were dumped at the shelter were declawed and were turned in by the owners who listed the reason as "not usign the litterbox" or "Biting" which are both known problems resulting from declaw...


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## catnip (Aug 19, 2003)

alright folks. I apologize. I was in a pretty snarky mood tuesday night when I posted that. 

 :twisted: :wink:


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## nklincoln (Aug 2, 2005)

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Molly is 13 and when I had her fixed I also had her declawed. If I had known what I know now I would never had it done. She was climbing me and swatting at me until she drew blood so instead of discipline I chose the easy way out so I thought. She now has a behavioral problem like not wanting to use her box. She is always chewing at her little paws as if they bother her. The vet told me as long as she had her back claws she would be able to climb a tree and defend herself. What he didn't say was they usually try bitting. Which she does. So I would have to say a big NO WAY to declawing your baby. 

As you can see I posted this two years ago. Molly still has issues but I did find using puppy pads in her litter boxes instead of litter was a big help. She thinks she is covering up her mess and comes and tells me to please dispose of it for her. So again would have to say a big NO WAY to declawing your baby.


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

nklincoln said:


> Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:33 am Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



This is such a sad story, I am very sorry to hear about Molly having issues. :roll:


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Bouchie, there was nothing you could have done when you were a five year old child. I'm sure everyone understands that. This is just a very touchy subject. People react strongly against the act of declawing, not against people who do not know what often happens as a result.


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## Megan1216 (Nov 28, 2004)

gunterkat said:


> I'm sure there are still vets out there who hard sell declawing. They'll tell you "it makes them better pets" or "what if your nieces and nephews visit and he claws them", or "what about your furniture", and many other excuses. The worst thing is that it's not out of concern for your cat or you, it's all about the dollars.


 Here would by my replies, in order of you quoted what a Vet might say:

"It doesn't make them better pet, it makes them in severe pain, and it makes you rich"

"I don't have a niece or nephew"

and

"We've been meaning to get more furniture anyway" :twisted: 

I feel strongly about de-clawing: it's cruel! I wish it was banned in Michigan.


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

Meaghan1216 said:


> gunterkat said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Amen!!


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## bouchie11982 (Sep 8, 2007)

i honestly never ever thought declawing was cruelty. i dont' knwo EXACTLY what they do, but now i do. 
this is the dog i was talking about. he cut her ears because he didn't liek them floppy. because they wouldn't look "bad***"
http://a507.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/im ... a4d34a.jpg


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

That's awful! I didn't know they did that to dogs.  Do they give the dog pain meds when they do that?
Poor pup!


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## bouchie11982 (Sep 8, 2007)

yea he said the dog has pain meds. but i still believe that is cruelty even though they disagree :roll:


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

bouchie11982 said:


> yea he said the dog has pain meds. but i still believe that is cruelty even though they disagree :roll:


Yes I would definitely call this cruelty too. Funny how people will find all kinds of argument to defend something that is convenient to them, and pretend it's for the good of the animal too... even the most gruesome treatments.


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## Nell (Apr 7, 2005)

I had a toe amputated when I was a child. Not just one joint, though, but several.

For many years I had pain associated with it. Pressure is put on bones that weren't supposed to feel it. I was on crutches for several months because, well, you shouldn't be walking on a limb that just had part of it amputated.
The growing pains were pretty bad sometimes- sharp pains when I walked, and even when I didn't put any weight on it. Its not just the bones and muscles but also the nerves that are affected...

And thats just one toe... I can't even imagine 10...

Did the doctors do a good job with the surgery...? heck yeah, its just that your feet are designed to carry the whole weight of your body. They are designed especially for that purpose, and when you remove part of it, even just a small part, well it kind of throws off nature's whole plan. Those bones are there for a reason, and removing them will have side effects.
And usually those side effects can be pretty painful.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

What a shame that a little child had to suffer such a loss, Nell. I know you have adapted, but I'm sure it has not been easy.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Nell said:


> I had a toe amputated when I was a child. Not just one joint, though, but several.
> 
> For many years I had pain associated with it. Pressure is put on bones that weren't supposed to feel it. I was on crutches for several months because, well, you shouldn't be walking on a limb that just had part of it amputated.
> The growing pains were pretty bad sometimes- sharp pains when I walked, and even when I didn't put any weight on it. Its not just the bones and muscles but also the nerves that are affected...
> ...


Nell yours is an excellent example. Whether a kitty or human feet are designed to carry the weight. Otherwise you experience pain and problems.


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## devilsheep22 (Dec 9, 2007)

I think it's cruelty. Unfortunately, my cat is declawed. Stupid mother... >.<

I was only nine years old and I kept on telling her to not get the cat declawed, but she didn't want her furniture ripped up...*****.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

I have to politely disagree about the use of the word "cruelty" when talking about declawing. To me, cruelty implies intent to harm.

I am very anti-declaw. Addison was adopted from the humane society already declawed. While I would not have chosen to do it, I also found it very convenient to not have to worry about the clawing issue. I was a little nervous to see how it would work out with Skylar just because it just wasn't an issue before. She's NEVER tried to scratch the furniture and always uses her cardboard scratcher or her cat tree. Plus, she's an angel for me trimming her nails.

However, opinions aside - declawing is a surgery. The animals are under anesthetic and maintained very well with pain medication. It is also done as a preventative measure. Not saying its needed, but there is at least some sort of reasoning behind it. Stupid yes, but reason nontheless. Having someone hold your cat down while you rip and tear out their nails is cruelty yes. But I don't believe the surgery is.

The same can be said for docking ears... it is done while dogs are under. Of course there are the people who try to do it at home while the dogs are awake. I feel they should be shot. Someone came into our local emergency clinic when he mauled one dog's ear and couldn't get the bleeding to stop... then pitched a fit when they wouldn't do the other ear for him 8O THAT is cruelty. And serves no purpose other than the look of the dog. Puppies are awake for tails and dewclaws to be removed. They are numbed, but the injections seem just as painful IMO. And again, it is cosmetic. 

So let me AGAIN stress how anti-declawing I really am... I would be a much happier person if it were outlawed. I see way too many people come in with 6 week old kittens asking when they can have them declawed BEFORE they start scratching on furniture. And scratching posts are just so tacky and clash with the decore of their houses. However, I don't see it as animal cruelty.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

Jessie, I just want to comment that cruelty also can be having no thought for the animals' feelings, besides having the intent to do harm. In my opinion people who have their cats declawed, while they might not have actual cruel intent, are making their furniture more important than their cats' comfort and quality of life. 
rcat


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## stormyknight (May 17, 2005)

I remember when we took our first kitten to the vet (who we had used for years prior) to have her checked out at about five weeks of age (she was a bottle baby). We didn't know anything about declawing or what it really entailed. After the vet checked over Panda, she asked us "When do you plan on getting her spayed and declawed?" I said that we would be getting her spayed as soon as she was big enough but that I wasn't sure about the declawing. The vet looked at me and said "Well, you don't want her to scratch up children you will have in the future, do you? It's better to get it done early." 

I was appalled. For the vet to assume that I was planning on children (I was twenty at the time with no children and I do not plan on ever having children), and then to use that as a reason to take declaw our kitten, was shocking to me. It wasn't even a "Are you planning on declawing?"; it was a matter of "When" to her. I was never able to look at that vet the same way again. 

I will say that since I work at an animal shelter, I see alot of cats dropped off for biting and/or house-soiling. When I ask "Is the cat declawed?", 9 time out of 10, the answer is "Yes." I have tried educating the owners about the dangers of declawing, but they are convinced that it is just "that cat" that has a "bad attitude". It's incredibly frustrating as 95%+ of these cats are euthanized because of their behavior problems that were brought on by their owners. :x


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## PrimoBabe (Feb 23, 2006)

> "When do you plan on getting her spayed and declawed?"


At the risk of offending veterinarians and their employees, I wouldn't trust a vet's advice about declawing. Veterinarians make money by performing the procedure, so -- at least in my experience -- many of them are willing to do so. Some of them even encourage and promote the procedure, as your vet did. 

Yes, declawing is animal abuse. There are valid reasons why so many nations have outlawed the procedure. In countries where the procedure remains legal, most humane and enlightened veterinarians refuse to perform it (along with cropping dogs' ears and tails for cosmetic purposes).


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## PrimoBabe (Feb 23, 2006)

> To me, cruelty implies intent to harm.


With all due respect for your opinion, I disagree. Cruelty is _doing_ harm. These innocent animals are in our care and completely at our mercy, and we're responsible for keeping them out of pain.

I have a small tumor on my thyroid gland. My primary care physician told me to get a biopsy done by "needle aspiration". I've decided not to have the procedure. I don't want someone sticking a large needle through my neck and into my thyroid gland without anesthesia. I simply refuse this treatment. Unlike my dog and cat, I have the power to speak up and protect myself from being hurt. It's my responsibility to be the same voice for my animal companions.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

> Cruelty is doing harm.


Agreed.


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## Nini (May 6, 2007)

nanook said:


> > Cruelty is doing harm.
> 
> 
> Agreed.


I agree too. Ignorance should not be used as a shield. You can mean well and be very cruel... pain is pain, inflicted with the intent of doing harm or not.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

PrimoBabe said:


> I have a small tumor on my thyroid gland. My primary care physician told me to get a biopsy done by "needle aspiration". I've decided not to have the procedure. I don't want someone sticking a large needle through my neck and into my thyroid gland without anesthesia.


Off topic, but my Mom had thyroid cancer, so I feel a little compelled to speak up. I'm pretty sure you could have a local anesthestic for the needle biopsy. My friend has had two needle aspirations in her breast, and both times had local anesthesia. It's not something you should ignore, Lori.


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## PrimoBabe (Feb 23, 2006)

> It's not something you should ignore, Lori.


Thank you so much for your concern, Marie. I've been feeling very smug and secure about the statistics -- more than 97% of thyroid tumors are benign, and most of the malignant tumors occur in children. It's unsettling to learn about your mother. Also, just a few days ago, I heard about another adult with thyroid cancer. 

Would you please ask your mother if she had a needle aspiration biopsy and, if yes, whether it was very painful and frightening? I'd really appreciate that.


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## mykittytoodles (Feb 2, 2006)

Well, I guess that I am a cruel person. My Toodles is declawed and I didnt know what the surgery involved. It is my fault for not researching what really happens during the surgery. It's done and I cant go back. I love my furbabies, they are well taken care off. I shouldn't have voiced my opinion in this discussion, because I am coming out on the other side of it feeling inadequate.

For primobabe .... have the thyroid biopsy done. I had one back in March and it wasn't something that I would want to go under anesthesia to have. Of course, that is your decision to make and if that is what you want and you doctor agrees to it, then that is what should be done. I am a big advocate for getting what I want in regards to my health care. My biopsy only took 15-20 mins start to finish. My doctor numbed the biopsy site first and after that, I didnt have any pain. I actually watched the samples being taken on ultrasound. I had a bruise about the size of a nickel on my neck for 2-3 days, but other than that it was a simple procedure. Please dont use statistics to talk youself out of doing it, you never know if you may be the 3% that isnt benign. Mine was benign, but I am still glad I had the biopsy done, because that gave me a definative answer.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

> Well, I guess that I am a cruel person. My Toodles is declawed and I didn't know what the surgery involved. It is my fault for not researching what really happens during the surgery. It's done and I cant go back. I love my furbabies, they are well taken care off. I shouldn't have voiced my opinion in this discussion, because I am coming out on the other side of it feeling inadequate.


I really don't think anyone is pointing fingers at the owners. It's the veterinary community who should know better and stop pushing it as a matter of course. That's cruel!
You should not feel in anyway inadequate. We all do our best and we're all learning.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

mykittytoodles said:


> Well, I guess that I am a cruel person. My Toodles is declawed and I didnt know what the surgery involved. It is my fault for not researching what really happens during the surgery. It's done and I cant go back. I love my furbabies, they are well taken care off. I shouldn't have voiced my opinion in this discussion, because I am coming out on the other side of it feeling inadequate.


You were an uninformed person. No one (e.g. your vet) explained it to you in detail. Maybe you should have investigated it further, but if it was made to sound matter of fact, you went with the advice your were given. Now you've learned and you won't do it again. 

For years I fed my cats crap food thinking it was the good stuff (Iams & Pro Plan) because I got it in a pet store not the grocery store. I had no idea that better foods existed. Onyx died of a stomach tumor, Callie of IBD...I'm betting the diet they were on played a part, maybe a big part. I don't consider myself cruel, I just didn't know better, but my food decisions probably did cause them harm. I do know better now and I'm feeding them the good stuff.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

doodlebug said:



> mykittytoodles said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I guess that I am a cruel person. My Toodles is declawed and I didnt know what the surgery involved. It is my fault for not researching what really happens during the surgery. It's done and I cant go back. I love my furbabies, they are well taken care off. I shouldn't have voiced my opinion in this discussion, because I am coming out on the other side of it feeling inadequate.
> ...


Cinderella was being fed tuna - the kind that you and I eat - not tuna cat food - when I rescued her. Cinderella still won't eat the good stuff, but I'm doing my best to sneak some in, the kittens only eat the good stuff, and Cleo's about half-and-half. 

So please don't feel bad, mykittytoodles. I think everyone who has joined this Forum has learned something new or better for their cats. I'm still learning.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

> For years I fed my cats crap food thinking it was the good stuff (Iams & Pro Plan) because I got it in a pet store not the grocery store. I had no idea that better foods existed. Onyx died of a stomach tumor, Callie of IBD...I'm betting the diet they were on played a part, maybe a big part. I don't consider myself cruel, I just didn't know better, but my food decisions probably did cause them harm. I do know better now and I'm feeding them the good stuff.


That sounds almost exactly like my story! For years I fed my cats Science Diet W/D or R/D dry! Twitch died of a stomach tumor (cancer)and Sundance had IBD. I always wonder (I'm inwardly sure really) that their diet had a lot to do with it, if not was the cause and, although I know I did what I thought was best for them with what I knew (or was told) at the time, I feel terribly guilty and responsible for what they suffered. I wish I had done some reading on my own and educated myself earlier! But, it just never entered my mind that their was an alternative, or that the vets could be wrong! I hope, and will try my best to never let it happen again.


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## hypertweeky (Nov 25, 2007)

doodlebug said:


> mykittytoodles said:
> 
> 
> > For years I fed my cats crap food thinking it was the good stuff (Iams & Pro Plan) because I got it in a pet store not the grocery store. I had no idea that better foods existed.


Same thing here! We learn from our mistakes!


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## PrimoBabe (Feb 23, 2006)

> Well, I guess that I am a cruel person.


No, you're not a cruel person. You probably trusted a veterinarian's advice, fully believing that a vet would never do anything to cause unnecessary harm or pain to an animal.

Years ago, I had a cat declawed. My vet told me that declawing is a simple, harmless procedure, and that my cat wouldn't suffer at all. I trusted him...after all, he was the expert. Now, I look back and shudder with guilt and shame about what I did. I put my precious friend through agony and, for all I know, he may have never fully recovered. Declawing is a drastic, traumatic procedure, and some cats experience pain and discomfort for the rest of their lives. I would never, ever do that again.

Also, years ago, I bought Science Diet food for my animals, thinking that I was getting the best product. I've since learned that the stuff is low quality, and that responsible stores refuse to stock it. Why do so many vets recommend it? Science Diet teaches the nutrition classes at many veterinary schools. The schools save money by not having to hire faculty and develop a nutrition curriculum, but the students get what's little more than a corporate pitch for proprietary merchandise.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Kittytoodles, I just want to echo what has already been said. You didn't know! You're a good kitty Mommy, I'm sure. We learn every day, as Hypertweeky said. We have all made what we now know are mistakes. What's done is done.


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## mykittytoodles (Feb 2, 2006)

I just want to apologize for any of my comments that may have sounded offensive. That was not my intent. I just feel bad about having Toodles declawed, now that I know what is done in that surgery. We have long since changed vets, and although I dont know what our current vets take on declawing is, I do know that he would respect my decision and he would make sure that I had all the facts on any surgery they may need to have, and that he wouldnt push me to do something I didnt feel good about-like declawing.


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## PrimoBabe (Feb 23, 2006)

> I just want to apologize for any of my comments that may have sounded offensive.


Not in the least. I don't think that your comments offended anyone. I'm guessing that everyone's sympathetic to your feelings, and I'm very sorry if I said anything to upset you.

So often, life is an on-the-job-training experience, and we learn as we go along. That's the reason why I confessed to having had my own darling cat declawed many years ago, and how I deeply regret having done so. The little guy passed away about 7 years ago, but my guilt and shame still cause nightmares.

When I said that "cruelty is _doing_ harm", I was referring to the veterinarians who promote and perform this barbaric procedure. When we hire professional experts, we should be able to trust their advice and counsel.


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## ianuk (Dec 22, 2007)

how would you like it?


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## ianuk (Dec 22, 2007)

i couldnt do such a thing, a cat needs its claws.


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

ianuk said:


> i couldnt do such a thing, a cat needs its claws.


This is soo true! Since they are predators by nature, a cat's claws really are part of who they are.


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