# Is bitting/clawing fingers a kitten phase?



## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

I adopted a purebred Ragdoll kitten because the breed grows up to be a mellow adult, a gentle giant as they say. Hm… but kittens are, well, kittens?

At 3 1/2 months he has decided that my body is a toy and so whenever given the opportunity he wants to bite my fingers, arms, legs - or gently rack them (similar to what he does with a scratching toy). I know he probably gets lonely while I'm at work and I also know another kitten would diffuse this, but it ain't gonna happen.

Okay, I've read everything about distracting them with a toy when they do this, but he just won't distract (I guess being a single cat he is VERY focused on me - which is what I was told would make for a good adult ragdoll cat - another kitten would mean focusing on the other cat). Also I was told to praise him with attention when he does something right… well that attention soon turns to a nipping fest.

Since cats respond better to rewards rather than punishment - I'm really at a loss of what to do. I yell a sharp NO (tone is important) and immediately pick him up for a kind of time out in the bathroom. But that is not satisfactory.

So - this IS a *phase*, right? Normal for a single cat to focus like this and treat you like another cat (so to speak), and _something he will grow out of_? I'm just concerned that the interaction will turn into a habit!

Fortunately he isn't like this all of the time (just most), and when he is sleepy or not hyperactive I do make the effort to stroke him and praise him. He seems really, really smart - and headstrong!


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

He's a kitten, so lessons aren't going to stick unless you're consistent (and even then, it's a months-long process).

Rather than picking him up and carrying him to the bathroom (which is attention), when he plays too rough, let out your NO and immediately turn away and stop giving him any form of attention (and get hands into pockets or armpits or whatever else out of the way). He'll learn a lot more quickly when there's an immediate consequence (no attention) when he misbehaves. Cats don't understand "time out" the way people (and even dogs) do.

He'll grow out of some of it, I think - at least, some of the rambunctiousness and getting carried away until he's too rough. But he'll only grow out of it if you don't encourage the behaviour.


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## 3gatos (Nov 28, 2012)

My kitten was a real biter he grew out of it at about 9-10 months


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## Blakeney Green (Jan 15, 2013)

This is normal kitten behaviour, and he'll likely calm down as he gets older, but you still need to address it with training. Cats aren't born with bite and scratch inhibition; that has to be learned. If you have multiple kittens or sometimes even an older cat, they often teach each other this. If you don't, you're going to have to do it yourself.

Taking your cat to the bathroom for a time out at that point really isn't going to help, for a couple of reasons. For one thing, the picking up is attention. For another, your kitten is not going to remember by the time he got to the bathroom what he did wrong. Consequences have to be _immediate_, especially with very young cats, or else they don't associate the response with their own actions.

Time outs do work for cats (I use them at my house too,) but they aren't actually a consequence for behaviour - they're a way to calm down a cat who is misbehaving _because_ he/she has become overstimulated. In a way it's a subtle difference, but a time out works better as a way to cut down on the stimuli that are causing the issue, not as a punishment.

What I did to teach Zephyr bite and scratch inhibition was that when he bit or scratched me in play, I would tell him a firm "no!", then cross my arms and turn away from him for about thirty seconds. After that, I would return to playing like nothing happened. Because the consequence was immediate, he understood that I was responding to his actions rather than acting randomly. Because the consequence didn't last very long and the play session was ongoing, he had a reason to change his behaviour. 

It didn't take him long to realize that if he wanted me to play with him, he had to play nicely. Of course you will have to reinforce for awhile, but Zephyr has developed good bite and scratch inhibition with this discipline method.

Your kitten is being a normal kitten - but like any baby, he won't just learn everything on his own and has to be taught. Be patient and consistent. Give consequences immediately, but keep them short so he doesn't lose interest in improving his behaviour. He'll grow up to be a well-mannered cat.


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

Jacq said:


> He's a kitten, so lessons aren't going to stick unless you're consistent (and even then, it's a months-long process).


More like years long process but it is necessary unless you want a biter on your hands (excuse the pun). Even love bites hurt!


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Okay, thanks.... makes sense - especially the pull back, no attention thing. Only problem I've found with trying that (so far), is that he KNOWS where my hands are and goes after them even when I pull them back (I'm careful to do it so it doesn't look like a prey response), and he also tries to climb my legs when I'm walking past him. If I stop, he jumps up my legs, if I move, he follows jumping. Uhm, how does one "ignore" him in THESE cases?

He is VERY smart, and knows the difference between when I'm playing with him one-on-one and when I put down a play toy that moves a wand around. He shows a LOT less interest in a moving object unless I'm on the other end of it. I've heard this breed is very dog-like in loyalty and focus... and I'm sure it will be fine in the end, but right now it is wearing me down.

Again - "NO" followed by ignoring means he just goes where I PUT my hands and (other issue) ignoring when walking doesn't stop him (for NOW). I put the for now because, eh ... I'm sure it is just him being focused on me and wanting to play. So we've got two issues here. Thanks, I didn't think of the first issue as "inhibition" - that makes sense (another cat would eventually get tired of it).

Ah - addendum. See, right now if I took out a wand he would be all over it... I have a toy that moves a wand around like crazy and it is on the floor doing its thing. Instead of chasing it, he turns to watch it now and is staring at me with "the look." Even coming over to me and staring into my eyes instead of chasing the feather.

I know the answer is just go play with him... unfortunately I'm dealing with some personal health issues that result in crushing fatigue daily. It is what it is. I do play with him daily, but can only muster enough energy for one play session, usually in the evening, followed by dinner.

Okay - teach bite/claw inhibition - got it. Not so easy in my case. Thanks.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

He needs to learn that hands are for petting and head scratches and not for biting. When he gets like that, give him a toy he can bite and scratch. He won't learn it on his own, so it's up to you to teach him. Don't play with him with your hands. I went through the same thing with Gazoo. Fortunately he seems to be catching on as all of my bites and scratch marks are healed. You should also try to keep his claws trimmed so that if he does have a momentary relapse, at least your hands won't get shredded.


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## lovetimesfour (Dec 1, 2010)

This kitten needs more interactive play time.

In addition to the excellent advice on how to deal with him when he does bite, you need to play with him more. I'm sorry you have health problems but he needs more interactive play time. At least three sessions a day.

I can't help wondering how old was this kitten when you bought him from a "breeder". Most kittens kept with their mother and litter mates until 12 weeks usually don't have these behavior issues, they learn from their mother and siblings how to play without biting and clawing.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

I can do 3 sessions of 10-15 minutes. But I don't know how to deal with him sitting on top of the furniture (that is okay with me), swiping at me (to play). By the time I react, it is already too late.

He is a genius in a cat suit, but still a cat (kitten). When I play with a wand he will also watch my hand/arm to help anticipate where it will go as much as watching the feathers! And so he will ALSO sometimes leap at my hand instead of the feathers! In other words, play time is with me, not the toy because if I put a toy down (or give him one) he will more often than not ignore it unless I'm directing it. Never seen this behavior before.

So I never use (or have used) hands for playing - he just seems to know that I am the one making something play for him. I can be playing with the wand and he will turn around, ignore it, meet my eyes and then come at my face instead of the feathers! I've heard of bonding, but this is a bit crazy.

Ah well.

I guess 10 weeks was too early.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Wow - I played big time an hour ago and he is still charged up with that "crazy look" (y'know, pretending to want to be chased). Very eye/face focused. If I just look at him for more than a second he will try to climb anything to get to my face.

I DID manage to get him to stop focusing on my hands by shoving an oven mitt in his face when he tried to play with them (all I did was sit on the floor next to him) - he grabbed onto that... so there is hope if I just find a big enough toy. No more small toys.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Yeah... back again.

Gotta keep on reminding myself... patience, he is still a "baby." The second time I put a oven glove he pushed it away and went for my fingers, twisting around (I was stroking his neck) to grab and bite. I have NEVER encouraged fingers (and face) as toys. I don't get it. The only "encouragement" was when I first got him I allowed him to put his face right up to mine to sniff me whenever he wanted to do so - now he seems fixated on it, LOL.

But I'll just be looking at him as he is sitting on furniture and he will LEAP, paws out, right at my face from a distance (as if my face were the feather toy)! Not to hurt, and it would be cute if it wasn't so... well, yikes. Or he will zoom up to me as I'm walking and leap straight up as high as he can, trying to reach the face. Looks odd, like he is trying to air climb a tree (cat equivalent of air guitar?).

And I gave him 4 play sessions today, feeding and nap time. Oddest behavior I've ever seen. Hope he does grow out of it (they get big and so can't jump so high later - I got this breed because of that, and my kitten is a world class jumper, go figure).

Unless he is sleepy, it seems most of the times I go to pet him he turns around to grab me and chew. Hoping this is because of teething and it will pass. Wowser, what a cute and weird little freak. Ragdolls should really settle down (unless something hormonal is off, of course). Will be 4 months on June 6. A kitten tweenager.


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## lovetimesfour (Dec 1, 2010)

> Unless he is sleepy, it seems most of the times I go to pet him he turns around to grab me and chew.


The way to stop that is to stop reaching to pet him. Many cats do not like, or become over stimulated by, hands coming at them.

Keep in mind that the training and behavior modification takes time. Four 10 or 15 minute play sessions a day is good, especially at the same times each day.But it will take time and repetition for him to realize that these sessions will be happening every day.

Remember that he is a kitten. He is not even close to the "teen age" phase of kittenhood, he is still a baby. You have to be absolutely consistent in everything, you are training yourself as well as the kitten. 

I would also suggest you stop thinking about what you expected him to be, and just focus on who he is, and who he will become as you two learn about one another and bond.

Does he have a cat tree for climbing? Put a bird feeder outside a window for Cat TV, also. Give him a Cardboard Box Fort and a paper bag fort (cut any handles)


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## lovetimesfour (Dec 1, 2010)

PS Keep a box of throw toys to hand all the time. At times other than the scheduled play times you can throw these things for him to chase down.

I do this for my almost three year old cat who still needs a lot of interactive play time daily. At the end of the evening when I am tired and want to read on the couch, and the two older cats want to curl up with me, she still wants to play.

I toss the toys from the box next to the couch while I read. She chases them down, eventually going off to play her own Games. She tells me where she wants me to throw the things by positioning herself in the proper direction.

In the morning I pick those toys up and that is her first Game of the day, as I pick them up and toss them toward the box, she again chases them.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Thanks luvx4… time and patience - he's a odd one, though.



> The way to stop that is to stop reaching to pet him.


I don't understand, I wait for him to come to me (thanks Mr. Galaxy) and when he comes the first thing he does is start chewing like I'm a toy. So I give him a toy, he ignores it and comes back to me.

This morning I pulled out a feather on a stick toy and played for 15 minutes (my exhaustion level) and the moment I put it up he ignored that and started going after my legs big time to continue playing.

Here's how other toys work with him:

I put down a a automated wand toy (which he used to play with) and he just ignores it. Instead he is laying across the room staring at me. When I meet his stare he leaps across the room to tag me.

I am "the toy master" and "master toy" to him. If it isn't attached to me, it isn't a toy (most of the time). I wouldn't be so concerned except that he is a kitten and forming his habits and I cannot figure out how to get him interested in attractive toys separate from me. 

Never had this issue before with a kitten, a toy was a toy was a toy. 

As for the other things - no cat tree, I'm trying to figure out where to put one. My windows in the condominium (so not allowed to put a feeder outside) are all floor level with blinds (on weekends I open the vertical blinds to the sliding glass door and he likes to watch - but that is in a room he must be supervised in, so not during weekdays). He is odd, shows no interest in cardboard boxes or paper bags of any size… tried that early.

Yep, there he goes, totally ignoring the dangling, chaotically moving feather to stare at me. Never saw a cat or kitten ignore such an object (simply because I'm not holding it??????). Wowser. And, instead… comes over to me to "play" with my leg. I never encouraged such behavior - don't know how to stop it.

Time and patience - but how does one STOP it from becoming a habit? Perhaps I protest too much - I assume he will grow out of this as adult Ragdolls tend to be settled.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Have you tried something you can throw and have him chase? A little stuffed mouse or even a crumpled up ball of aluminum foil might help get his attention off of you. Have you tried a laser pointer? I think maybe he's not getting tired out from your play sessions. If you can get him running and jumping to the point where he's panting like a dog, then you may see better results. 


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

I understand. I run back and forth across the furniture having him leaping and jumping for a solid 10 to 15 minutes ... I've gone as long as 30 minutes of solid running and he just doesn't get winded. Good for him! (Not so much for me.)

Regarding tossed objects...the moment the object leaves my hand he loses interest... which is odd because Ragdolls are supposed to be easy to teach to fetch, LOL.

I think part of the problem is my place is carpeted and toys tend to NOT roll very far. Two toys I can hear him playing with in the bathroom at night after I've closed off the area is that plastic ball that lights up when it is rolling and something that is a ball with feathers on one end. He even plays with the other one on the carpet, but not long... it doesn't roll far.

The laser pointer sort of works. About half the time he chases it, the other half he focuses in on my hand moving it... again, genius cat knows I control the toy. Seriously, I know it sounds nuts, but that is what it looks like to me. I'm trying NOT to attribute human motivations to his behavior.

For instance... if I hold a wand with a feather out, perfectly still and look at it, he goes for it... but if I look away, he follows my eyes and ignores it... and for as long as I look away. So I can't just "throw a toy out there" to distract him. Kind of funny and spooky at the same time. Well, maybe a day alone (while I'm at work) kind of intensifies things.

Do not take away from this that I am disappointed or don't love the guy... the bottom line is, as I've said before, the habits that may be formed and how to break them before they get set. All comments are appreciated - just some of them I've already tried.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Has he been neutered?


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Not yet... only 3 1/2 months old. Every Ragdoll breeder says wait until 6 months (minimum 5 months). Don't think I haven't thought that he may be maturing early.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Wow. Got a new wand toy and played until he was panting. Fed him and no change. (Trying the hunt, kill, feed, sleep recipe). I'm just a big toy right now, really hoping that this is just a phase. Last week we were cuddling and petting, this week he turns it into biting and scratching (similar to when they grab the toy, hold it and rake it). Sigh.

I know, one night does not change behavior - patience. Still, considering early neutering if it doesn't void breeder's contract.


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

I know it's rough right now, but hang in there. You're doing the right thing (playing until panting). Keep it up.

I know it must be tough in your condition, but is it possible you could play longer with him by making a sort of "playground nest"? If you put lots of fun things for him to climb up and go under and around and over, all around a place where you can sit and just move the wand? Even a blanket on the floor that you can poke the sick end of wand under and wiggle around will catch his attention more.

I'm not sure if it will work, but it might be possible to get him to focus on the toy if you keep your face and posture as impassive as you can, moving only the wand so it's the only "interesting" thing to focus on.

As an aside, he's a perfect age to start clicker training, and it will give both of you something to focus on that will use energy and increase a bond. It might also give him a little bit more discipline, if you can teach him to accept gentle pats without biting. Others here are way better at the nuances of cat training, and there's loads of tutorials on youtube for that sort of thing. 

What's his name, by the way?


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## FurbyFace (May 13, 2013)

My kitty was the same way, she mellowed as she got older, but she's a
Manx so there is still a good amount of toe attacking. It never hurts too bad. 


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Observing him today (Artemis or Artie) it appears he would have done (would do) better with another animal. Basically he wants to play, Play, PLAY!!!! And not by himself (tossed toys do not do much). He wants a playmate.

Unfortunately today I had some tough medical news - basically my treatments are not covered by insurance and will cost a lot - so, the heartbreaking thing is that I may not be able to afford another kitten and he will have to learn that life isn't fair (to put it in human terms). (But I will look into total costs to adopt a kitten with shots, dewormed and neutered up front.)

I did buy a puzzle toy and he did show interest - and solved it in a few minutes (it is supposed to occupy for hours). Genius. 

Company isn't enough, company exists only to play with him... and playing isn't petting. I think that is why he reaches out with his paws and grabs me.

I've come to the conclusion, in part, because the little guy started vocalizing his wishes in a new way. Running up to me, chirping, soft bat, run away and another chirp. Cute as can be, and obvious. Artie is one smart kittie.


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

Our Animal Control will give you a cat/kitten that is already spayed or neutered for $25. That includes the first round of shots and microchip. A great deal.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Looks like $100 here.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Actually, I was going to ask about getting him a playmate but I saw in your first post where you said it wasn't an option. It really sounds like that is what he needs. 

Of course, you have to realize that there's a chance it could backfire on you and then you'd have two of them attacking you. 


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## Marcia (Dec 26, 2010)

Plus, there are always lots of cats looking to be rehomed on Craigslist, but frankly if you can't freely afford to adopt again - even $100, the I would not do it. You may need the extra $$$ for emergency vet visits.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Could some of it be:

1) Teething
2) Hormonal

So, having a peaceful moment after playtime and dinner with him laying on couch between my legs looking content and out of nowhere (no movement on my part) he turns around a starts chewing on my leg, and (playfully?) clawing with his paws. Yow. No instigation whatsoever.

It was so sudden I reacted in anger (I know cats are mirrors), nearly kicking him (totally unconscious guys). So off he runs.

Ragdolls are instantly forgiving, but it took awhile for him to come back and settle back in.

I want to do this/treat him right! Although I planned to wait until 6 months, I contacted the breeder about neutering at 4 and she said, based on his weight, that it would be okay and could help to calm him. Calm him? Wow, didn't expect hormones to be an issue this soon... although I know of some other people who had multiple cats where it was.

Last week Artie was a sweetheart, but this week he has changed. The neat thing about the ongoing changes is the changing interest he shows... No interest in bags two weeks ago... now he will play a little with them. But this unprovoked biting/clawing must be resolved.


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## Tokkaebi (Feb 5, 2013)

As others have expressed, cats do bite and attack instinctively, and as kittens it's fun for them, it's what they would do with their mama cat. However, she'd smack them down for biting her or playing too roughly. lol

So, the only combination that regularly works is training in addition to maturity. When my 3 kittens would bite, I basically yelled a "No!" every single time and stared at them very sternly. Cats don't really care about your approval until they know what it means to not have it, so I was quite strict when they were little.

But I always praised them excessively when they bit and played with their toys, and I played with them a lot. I'm a student and don't have a day job so that was possible for me. The goal is for them to be able to differentiate between the good and the bad behavior. My cats very rarely bite anymore. If they do, it's because they've had some catnip and can't control themselves.


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## Tokkaebi (Feb 5, 2013)

Oh my goodness, yes, neuter him! It will significantly reduce distress and fighting instincts. I think a lot will change when you take him for his operation.

Also, unprovoked attacks could be aggression from a lack of stable territory the cat feels. I allow my cats to walk on everything. They can move around most rooms with higher places to be. They definitely own the place, and if a cat doesn't feel secure in this way, the cat will lash out. 

But I actually think most of the issue is that he hasn't been neutered yet.

P.S. - Definitely clip nails. Sometimes my cats when happy and content do that kneading on me, and sometimes will softly grab onto me and chew very lightly. I don't consider it biting because when they do this it's after they've eaten, at night when they're sleepy.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Yep, really hard - being consistent with firm NO, not acting like prey... but he is turning it into a game. Runs over, grabs my leg and chews, I yell NO and he moonwalks across the room. Shampoo, rinse, repeat.

That's the problem. No provocation. Argh!!!


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Firm "MRAWR" works better. I'd rather not go that route, who's the cat here? LOL


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, sounds a lot like a kitten! They're adorable little devils! I'd deffinitely get him neutered before considering another kitten if you can afford it. You will most likely observe a big change in his behavior after he's neutered. 

Honestly though, just getting another kitten in order to keep Artie preoccupied is not the best way to go about it. Remember, he won't be a kitten forever, and so I would honestly wait a year or two before getting another kitten in your case. Just because, he will mature as he ages, and remember, Ragdoll's I believe take longer than other cats to mature!


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

I can afford neutering easier than another kitten - discount certificate program in this state - only $35. As soon as I get the certificate I will schedule it.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

I observed him very closely tonight (and thank goodness I finally found a toy he will actually play with for more than 10 seconds) and how he acted towards me - when we met eyes.

Now I'm leaning towards "he's just a kitten that has bonded to me and wants to play with me as if I were a kitten too." Point of this being, I can put up with this behavior if I believe it is something that he will grow out of (and not be establishing HABITS).

Why is this important (beyond the obvious)? Well, tonight he drew first blood in a playful bite! And, as was just mentioned, while another kitten would probably solve THIS problem, this is a lifetime responsibility and I have to be very cognizant of that. Two kittens squares the chaos.

So I guess I'll just suck it up and appreciate him in his less frenetic moments. The guy is just gonna hafta learn that guardians are much less fun than siblings because they aren't around enough - and when they are around, they only bestow so much worshipfulness (it is never enough). Bast will watch over them when they are alone. 

Hard for me to imagine how big he will be (I've never had a large breed before) as, even without pictures, I notice him growing about every day (hey, I pick the guy up). It was neat today because it seemed as if a whole bunch of color came in overnight above his eyes because I first thought I saw some dirt/smudge... nope, color.


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## Tokkaebi (Feb 5, 2013)

He will grow out of it, though, yes, it will be more difficult for him since he'll be more bored than if he had a companion. But I would also grab them by the scruff, or turn my back to them after yelling. I know it feels like talking at a wall (lol), but sooner or later he will understand, and understand that what he wants is praise and rubs and treats. And when he is neutered, you'll see a big difference as you continue the discipline with him.

I also want to recommend a toy that I have gotten suspicious kitties to play with. It's called the Go Cat Teaser Cat Catcher Wand. 

Go Cat Teaser Cat Catcher Wand Cat Toy at PETCO

It's very good for cats who like to go after something that looks real.

I know you want something he will play with on his own when you're not with him, but my neediest and most vocal kitty prefers playing with me cuz I make it a challenge, so I understand. When you do play with him, it might be easier to wear him out with this toy. And then when you get tired, you can close the wire in a cabinet door. He might like to bat at it.

Or! Maybe he would like a treat ball. I have one that has a spiral of plastic on the inside, so the cat HAS to play with it and roll it around to get at the treats. I have 3 cats so they figured it out and had it empty before the end of the day. But! It kept them very focused and occupied. lol


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

There's a really cool toy that I want (but doesn't ship to canada cheaply) called the "Catamazing" that might be good. It's a cardboard puzzle that you put a treat in and the cat has to get out. It has three stages for smarter or not so smart kitties. 

It might keep him occupied for a while?


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Interestingly, I did get the Catamazing. Put a favorite toy in it and some treats. He solved it in 10 minutes and hasn't shown any interest in it since - he is not very treat oriented. He is adamantly ME oriented.

There is a toy, kind of a straw ball with catnip in the center that he will play with for more than a few minutes. Hm, this morning I rolled up a piece of paper into a ball and - OMG, he is finally acting like a normal kitten - playing with it and carrying it at high speed from room to room. Oh boy, there is hope for this kitten to entertain himself yet.

Oh, that lasted all of 3 minutes. Oh well. Baby steps.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

*Self destructing super charged kitten*

Very depressed here. I had to stay out later than usual (but managed to get home to feed him), so when I got home (and it is my bedtime) he was supercharged. I've never seen this kind of behavior. Zooming back and forth, yes, but pouncing, biting and clawing like crazy again and again and again, really hurting me.

First firm NO, then emotional NO - wouldn't get through to him, super focused on me…. he runs to the other side of the room then charges me, leaping up with paws extended in what would be super cute if it wasn't super painful.

I didn't want to appear as "prey" so I batted him away (thinking like a momma cat). This did not stop him. Batted away again and again (opening the other hand to gently catch his nose or maybe an ear)… but he leaped into the batting motion and he got caught differently and suddenly it sounded like he couldn't breathe! I grabbed him to listen closely and he tagged me yet again and again, squirming to escape - it sounded like a stuffed up nose, I forced him against my ear to listen to his breathing - sounded okay, but then he swiped at me again, broke free and set himself up for another "love run" at me.

I listened intently as he tagged me, and it sounded like a closed nostril (he has always had a sneeze), stuffed up and I felt awful because I couldn't figure out if he had been hurt by coming in at just the wrong angle at the wrong time (or if I had even accidentally swiped his side at a bad angle). But he continued to be VERY active, even playing vigorously with some of his toys. So I closed him out of my bedroom, and left him alone for a few minutes.

Full of guilt I opened the door to check on his breathing and he immediately started purring at the sight of me, followed by, you guessed it, jumping up, paws spread and leaping at my face. I backed away and he landed against the wall instead of me, hitting his head. Unbelievable luck! But, as kittens are wont to do, got right back up and prepared for another lunge. Nothing more I can do tonight, he is obviously supercharged because he did not have his evening exercise and I have to get to bed. I've closed the door. He isn't even meowing to be let in (that was the reason I checked on him after a few minutes the first time to find the banzai kitten waiting for me). So I have to trust that he is okay, just beaten up a little by our exchange, and I'll check in the morning.

He caught me TOTALLY off guard with his intensity…. undoing a lot of what I have worked for this past week in training. So I'm putting this out there as a lesson for others and a call for help and confessional. As careful as I was, he was relentless in his pursuit of playing with me as a cat. Little claws and teeth vs massive human is not a good combination. 

Hm, a few minutes and still no meowing and clawing at the door to get in, dare I peak? I did… he was laying on the bed in the other room… up as soon as our eyes met and zooming toward me with that crazy look in his eyes. No strange breathing sounds. Guess he finally figured out I'm not letting him in for the night. Glad I did a final check - again, will check first thing in the morning.

I never expected quite this much excitement. HE IS SO BEING FIXED AS SOON AS I GET THE CERTIFICATE. Just want the guy to not be a danger to himself!

Thanks for listening. But depressed with the exchange and worrying that he may be hurt (they hide pain so well) because I defended myself from Banzai Artie.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Well, resilience describes him. He is fine, better than fine. I'm just trying to figure it out and I'm guessing it is that cats are mirrors thing?

Maybe he picked up my frustration even as he just did what kittens do and this changed his breathing pattern.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

*Da Bird: BEST - TOY - EVER*

Suggestions have been made to play until he is panting - but every wand toy I've used has taken more effort from me than I have to give right now (health issues).

I'm not associated with the company that makes this - but I got it today hoping it would take less effort on my part - YES IT DOES. Not only that, he cannot resist it's fluttering motion - got him panting in 10 minutes, tuckered out in 15.

So I'm figuring he will be more likely to do the hunt, kill, eat, sleep thing now. And I can easily do 10 minutes before bedtime to tire him out.

That is half the problem. Just wanted to share the joy at finding something that is really worth it.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

*Kitten biting and clawing - Redux - pleasure zone?*

Well, I've made a lot of progress with Artie. Playing until panting and stroking him under his chin and sometimes belly (Ragdoll style) when he is sleepy… but I made an observation tonight that really concerns me regarding this behavior.

After a sleepy stroking session, he got up, stretched (so cute) and then immediately turned around and grabbed my hand (unprovoked) and started chewing and clawing with great enthusiasm - WITH THAT FAR OFF LOOK THEY HAVE WHEN KNEADING. Artie has never kneaded, but I know the look.

This has me worried because the whole time he was doing this I was firmly shouting NO(!), and popping him on his nose or his ears (with fingers) while saying NO.

So, just like you can't really stop the kneading, he would not back off. Finally when I pulled him off he looked at my fingers (the ones that had popped him) and got a look of fear in his eyes at the sight of them - moving away, ears back, eyes wide open.

I'm worried that I'm running a fine line between hands as friends (petting) and hands as scary things (a la "My Cat from ****" where they had a cat totally freaked about a guys hands because he hit the cat once - I'm popping multiple times before I have to remove the guy because I think he is in a pleasure zone when biting).

Ragdolls are a very forgiving breed, so maybe I'm worrying over nothing… I just now walked over and since the "play moment" has passed he started purring and I stroked him under his head. But it seems almost Jekyll and Hyde - that's why I think it is his version of kneading?

I guess what I'm saying is I've never heard of anyone successfully breaking the "kneading" behavior (pleasure generating), and if this is Artie's "pleasure behavior," things could get rough as he gets bigger.

Any ideas? Do I seem "out there" in my observations of his actions?


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Have you tried prying his mouth open to get his teeth off you? I have to do that to my cat sometimes, as cats do tend to "love" bite when they are content. It isn't something I'd encourage, and I'd pry his mouth open, remove my hand and leave the couch or wherever you are with the cat. It can really hurt, and it has taken me a few months to get my cat to stop doing this, now he only does it on occassion. 

Just out of curiosity, how long have you had Artie?


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Have had Artie 6 weeks. Only began this new loving behavior in the past 10 days.

Will have him neutered in less than 2 weeks - no later than 4 1/2 mark.


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## MsMichael (May 11, 2013)

1st: All kitten bite and claw. It is part of their "prey/hunter" learning. While cats are domesticated ( somewhat:sad) They still retain their wild instincts, they also play with their litter-mates ( or people) for dominance. If this is the case, the best thing to do with young kittens is to do what their moms would have done.... *hiss*. But do this quietly, not in a "human" voice but in a lower, deeper tone. I was taught this by a very wise mother cat 20+ years ago. Every kitten I have raised,or helped raised grew up to be well behaved, social animals with no personality damage ( some "discipline" can cause animals to be antisocial or anxiety-ridden). Just as the kitten heads to bite you... *hisssssss*. But don't do this all the time, pick your battles. Elsewise your become a feline "nag" and the kitten will stop listening.

2) Kittens need to play. So you can get kitty something on which to teeth and play. Often biting and chewing have to do with teething. I cut up strips of old towels (CLEAN) and soak them in no salt chicken broth, then freeze them. When ever GiGi starts to teeth, I pull a frozen towel strip out and tie it to a ribbon and let her play chase and chew with it. It kills two birds with one towel strip. The cold towel soothes her gums and she gets playtime.
The other tip I will share is teach your cat UP & DOWN hands. Cats,even young ones are pretty smart. I was shown how to let your can know when your up to playing and when your only going to pet. If your hand is palm up ( fingers up, also known as dead bug pose) its time to play. Only allow the kitten to play with your hand when it is palm up. So when your hand is palm down... that means "PETS"... no biting no playing. Our vet loves us for teaching our cats these hand signals. Teaching our baby kitten (8 wks) these signs now. But I know it will take until after teething to completely sink in... so for now I try to use toys to play with her ( keeping hand away from her mouth / head) and use the *hiss* only when she's really wound up. So far so good, bloodletting has been held to a minium.. GOOD LUCK


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## MsMichael (May 11, 2013)

Tokkaebi said:


> He will grow out of it, though, yes, it will be more difficult for him since he'll be more bored than if he had a companion. But I would also grab them by the scruff, or turn my back to them after yelling. I know it feels like talking at a wall (lol), but sooner or later he will understand, and understand that what he wants is praise and rubs and treats. And when he is neutered, you'll see a big difference as you continue the discipline with him.
> 
> NEVER>>>>NEVER>>>NEVER YELL AT A KITTEN!!!!
> 
> ...


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## MsMichael (May 11, 2013)

NBrazil said:


> Artie 6 weeks. Only began this new loving behavior in the past 10 days.
> 
> Will have him neutered in less than 2 weeks - no later than 4 1/2 mark.


6WKS??? If you did not find him abandoned, he should not have been taken from his mother BEFORE 12 weeks, 8 at the VERY earliest.

The earlier a kitten loses its mom and siblings, the more work and possible problems your can have with a kitten. Since YOU will have to provide the socialization and PLAY that mom and sibs would have given your kitten.

From Reading your post:

Artie is very young, expecting him to be Loving (like a mature CAT) at this age is like expecting an infant to speak at 6 months... it's just not developmentally possible.

Also, you might want to wait til at least 6 months before neutering Artie. Kitten who are weaned early can be developmentally delayed.

I am dealing with a kitten that was abandoned at 3 1/2 weeks. I had to hand feed her every two hours for her first 2 weeks with me. She's 7 weeks now, she is teething and romping all over. I am having to teach her how to be a well behaved kitty ( as a mommycat would, not as a person would) It takes a lot (A LOT) of work. But if your KIND and LOVING ( even if it doesn't feel like your getting anything back in the early months) you'll be a amazed at the wonderful fluff-balls-O-Love they can suddenly turn into.

Wishing you and Artie All the Best!!
:jump


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

I believe NBrazil's had Artie for six weeks, but she got him when he was 12 weeks. I think she mentioned in her other thread that he would be neutered around the 5-month mark (she asked the breeder if it would be okay to do it a bit early).


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## Jakiepoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, NBrazil has had Artie for 6 weeks. I had been curious because the new his environement is the more stimulating it will be to him. You're still relatively new to him, he spent the first few weeks getting to know his new home and his new mommy, now that he's reached that point he's ready to come out making up for all of that lost time where he was more nervous.

Also, I don't think they meant pick the kitten up by the scruff and shake, I think they just meant scruff the kitten on the ground (that's what I took out of it anyways). I punish my cat by scruffing him and growling or hissing at him when he gets very out of line (rarely). I wouldn't call it scruffing in the literal sense though, more like firmly holding his head down by the scruff of his neck.

But yeah, I wouldn't yell at a kitten, that would scare the living daylights out of him! Maybe consider picking up a squirt bottle if you think your cat would be ok with it (as in not get overly skittish or afraid) it's a good deterent when used sparringly.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Quick note, NBrazil is a daddy (from fictional Nathan Brazil) - and Artie will be 4 months old on May 6th (got around 12 weeks) and he will be neutered shortly after that. And by popping I mean forming a circle with the thumb and middle finger (so it doesn't resemble a hand) in a spring loaded manner and releasing against his ears or nose.

I'm not expecting him to be like a mature cat, of course not... and Ragdolls take up to three years to reach maturity - the basic point (to be redundant) is that it looks to me like his biting isn't so much teething (but thanks very much for the advice there, because of course that is what he is also going through) but a pleasure activity like kneading - just from the look in his eyes (that far off look). Could be wrong, hope I am. Because that is an activity nobody breaks.

Low hissing like a momma cat does help, I just thought it might be too weird to do... Right now I'll take weird.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Yeppers - doing all the kitten stuff - untying my shoelaces as I tie them. Funny.


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## MsMichael (May 11, 2013)

NBrazil said:


> I'm not expecting him to be like a mature cat, of course not... and Ragdolls take up to three years to reach maturity - the basic point (to be redundant) is that it looks to me like his biting isn't so much teething (but thanks very much for the advice there, because of course that is what he is also going through) but a pleasure activity like kneading - just from the look in his eyes (that far off look). Could be wrong, hope I am. Because that is an activity nobody breaks.
> 
> Low hissing like a momma cat does help, I just thought it might be too weird to do... Right now I'll take weird.



Hoping that even (possible) weirdness doesn't last very long.rcat
I'll pray that Artie is an exceptional Ragdoll, and matures above the bell curve, so that you have peace with a minimum of bloodletting!


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

*Finally found useful information...*

Ah, finally found some information that makes sense, and I've been doing it wrong of late:




> *A kitten that is engaging in play aggression lashes his tail back and forth, flattens his ears, and dilates his pupils.* These are signs that an attack against your hand or other vulnerable part is about to follow.
> 
> If you see your kitten readying to jump you, try to distract him with a loud noise or a hiss from you. If he's already being too rough with you, say "Ouch!" and place him on the floor and quit playing with him for several minutes. Then use the toy instead. Don't strike him, which he can interpret as extra-rough play, encouraging him to escalate his own aggression, or which can teach him to be afraid of you or your hands.


Well, so much for popping his ears with my fingers or smacks on the nose while affirming NO. _This explains why he actually keeps on coming back for *more,*_ I thought the look he gave me was one of escalating excitement, now I KNOW it is. (I was more afraid of him becoming afraid of my hands, didn't think of this!)

Back to square one, I don't know how I can "ignore it," when he grabs my leg while I walk on past and holds on for dear life, chewing all the time. I've already tried ignoring and distraction, he won't have it. He is very, very bonded to me, so any eye contact initiates this faux aggressive play (and who wants to avert their eyes from a kitten's face?). The only distraction that currently works are wand toys, and he manages to mangle them pretty quickly (well, sometimes he will chase a piece of balled up paper - hm?).

Well, I'll just have to get more dangling toys and really, REALLY ignore him (even though he has been alone all day).

What happens when I ignore him is that he either settles down near to me and naps OR goes ballistic (this is more likely) - meaning running at full speed back and forth across the room, in an attempt to get me to engage with him. Eventually running full tilt into ME and tagging me. 

Well, I feel less frustrated now that I know what is going on in his little head.


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## bluemilk (Oct 3, 2005)

Try a LIGHT tug on the scruff. I'm guilty too,when Robin attacked my toes as a kitten,I thought it was 'cute'. Scruffing-GENTLY APPLIED,TO A KITTEN!-doesn't cause pain,but clearly signals kitty to stop his problem behavior. And I don't think he sees your body as a toy,rather,1 of many things to investigate! He SHOULD explore his surroundings ,like any red-blooded adventurous kitten. He shouldn't bite or claw you.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

So what is all the fuss about? Here's a picture of Artemis - about 4 months old, and really into play aggression - initiating it in any way he can. Now that I understand it better, I can counter act and hopefully make him realize it isn't cool in my household.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Yep, now that I've identified it, I've been able to decrease this behavior with the "Owwwwwwch" and distractions. Still, seems like acute "single cat syndrome."

So the "animal person" who assured me that a single cat was a better idea for me because kittens would be so much into each other that neither would bond with me - well, that isn't the whole story.

After I get him fixed (sometime in next two weeks), I will seriously consider a rescue kitten if I can find one between 3 and 9 months in age that is confident and has a sweet personality to be his play pal.* Let'cha know if/how that goes.

He is essentially by himself for 18-20 hours a day (although I have expanded his territory) and he is too smart & bored (yeah, I think kittens can be bored) even with all of his toys. He is also very aggressive when playing, needs another kitten to help him learn restraint (hence the confidence requirement).**

Say, is it true that in general, kitten introductions are not so "dangerous" as cat introductions? He'll be about 5 months old (Ragdolls mature slower) when I find a companion - that is still a kitten, right?

*I found some indication in online articles that not every kitten that is in a single cat household matures into a healthy cat - particularly on a Ragdoll breeder page. Interesting.

**Really intensely expressive face/eyes - these critters have emotions which aren't so hard to read!

Tonite will be a milestone test - to see if he will calm down enough to sleep with me AND/OR allow him access to most of the condo (outside my bedroom) if he won't settle down. Right now I've set up barriers that restrict him to the 2nd bedroom, hallway and bathroom... but he has managed to stay out of trouble for up to 3 hours unsupervised in the living area - and the barriers are a PITA to set up at night. Not entirely kitten proof, but what is?

Sweet guy who is totally bonded, we'll see what happens. Thanks for following my adventures and giving suggestions. I thought I knew all this cat stuff - WRONG.


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## NBrazil (May 16, 2013)

Nope. Won't settle down and sleep with me. Wants to chew on me. Even gave gave him a second chance at two in morning. 

Well, at least the barrier is down. It was hard to put up.


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