# purebred id?



## 3katzman (Apr 11, 2005)

I have an all black long hair and was told it is a purebred. This because it has black marking on the roof of its mouth. Anyone confirm this?


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## icklemiss21 (Aug 29, 2004)

If it is a purebred, you will have papers confirming its parentage and breeder etc.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Who told you it was a purebred, and what kind did they say it was?


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## vanillasugar (Nov 11, 2004)

I've never heard anything like this before. Sound suspicious to me... If you dont have papers for your cat, he's a domestic longhair  (like my Nya, nothing wrong with that!)


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## Padunk (Oct 20, 2003)

If there are no papers, it's only a guess as to what breeds it has derived from.

http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15252


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## 3katzman (Apr 11, 2005)

Man I have never heard of a cat carrying his own papers to prove his identity. I must look into this. So if said cat has no papers on him he cant be purbred as there are no identifying charecteristics to say it is purbred unless he is carting those **** papers. Is that right?


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

3katzman said:


> Man I have never heard of a cat carrying his own papers to prove his identity. I must look into this. So if said cat has no papers on him he cant be purbred as there are no identifying charecteristics to say it is purbred unless he is carting those **** papers. Is that right?


Exactly, a cat might very well look like a Siamese and in fact have Siamese parents, but without papers to confirm it, there's nothing that prooves the cats heritage making it a DSH.


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## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

3katzman said:


> Man I have never heard of a cat carrying his own papers to prove his identity.


Ha ha....very humorous!! :lol: :lol: :lol: The "papers" are a registration with an organization that certifies the cat is a purebred because it is the offspring of two registered purebred parents. You've probably heard of the AKC....the American Kennel Club? Well, they have the same thing for cats. Such as TICA - The International Cat Association, or CFA - the Cat Fanciers Association.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

He very well may be purebred, but without papers there is no way to prove it, so then he can't be considered purebred.


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## 3katzman (Apr 11, 2005)

Thank you for all your replys. I was hoping someone would have an all black purebred who could look at the roof of its mouth to see if it was black. lol. So there is no diff between a domestic and purebred, just a piece of paper.


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## emma_pen (Nov 2, 2004)

I've heard the whole black-spotted mouth thing before, and laughed! Believe me, it's an old wives tale that has been blown out of proportion!

As far as I can remember, this is how the story goes - some details might be blurred. The origins of the myth derived from the old saying that dogs with black spots/blotches on their tongues/mouth were good workers/companions. The myth carried on until black-mouthed dogs became known as 'Pedigree Mongrels', basically a way to stereotype the working class mutt as something as special as their purebred aristocrat counterparts. 

:lol: So no, your cat having black pigmentation in its mouth does NOT make him any kind of pedigree. And as has been mentioned, a 'pedigree' is simply a piece of paper...your cat is special and has a distinguishable feature! One of my dogs has a big black splodge at the back of his tongue.

Ems


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## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

3katzman said:


> So there is no diff between a domestic and purebred, just a piece of paper.


Well, yes, there is a great deal of difference between a domestic and a purebred. Domestic is a recognized breed, only thing is it's not a purebred and thus cannot be registered. There are many breeds that are purebred, and have the papers to prove it. Everything from Abbyssinian (sp?) to Turkish Van. And each breed has its subset of colors and patterns.

This may be easier to understand if you get a good book about cat breeds.


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## Adrienne (Jan 15, 2005)

I kind of think of it as -winning the lottery but losing the ticket. Yes, you did win the lotto, but since you don't have your ticket you can't prove it. Kind of dumb but that is how I explain it to people who ask at the shelter.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

Adrienne said:


> I kind of think of it as -winning the lottery but losing the ticket. Yes, you did win the lotto, but since you don't have your ticket you can't prove it. Kind of dumb but that is how I explain it to people who ask at the shelter.


That's actuarally a quite nice explanation that probably most people can relate to.


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

3katzman said:


> Thank you for all your replys. I was hoping someone would have an all black purebred who could look at the roof of its mouth to see if it was black. lol. So there is no diff between a domestic and purebred, just a piece of paper.


There's a difference -- the paper is just what proves it. Purebred cats are purebred because they have been bred from cats meeting the breed standards for many generations. Lots of domestic short and longhairs reSEMBLE purebreds, but to be honest, I can usually tell that they aren't purebred. Lots of cats resemble each other, but meeting breed standards is pretty hard for a moggie to do.


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## 3katzman (Apr 11, 2005)

Two cats, say longhair, sitting side by side. One is and one isnt. How can you tell by looking at them which is purebred?


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

In my opinion it would be very obvious which one met breed standards for a certain breed. There are lots of longhaired breeds though. So it really depends on the cats.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Again, it depends on what the cats look like that you are comparing.

I can take a persian and stick it next to a maine **** and tell you which is which. Now take maine **** and put it next to a norwegian forest cat and I'd be lost without a guide... but looking at breed standards I can tell you which is which.

Lots of people think their long haired cats are maine coons, raggamuffins, siberians, etc just because these breeds tend to resemble your everyday long haired cats... but you've got to be familiar with the breeds.

Again, do you know what specific BREED this woman said the cat was? Have a look through the breeds at www.cfa.org and see what it resembles, but also look at how different the breeds are from one another (and regular old moggies) and again at how similar some breeds are... this is why it can be hard for some people to accept that their cats aren't purebred even though they really LOOK like one of the breeds. It'll also help you understand why we can't help you much when you say you have a black cat with long hair - could be something, could be a lot of things, could be nothing...


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

3katzman said:


> Two cats, say longhair, sitting side by side. One is and one isnt. How can you tell by looking at them which is purebred?


If you know the breed well, you'll be able to tell the difference. But there are always some purebred cats that aren't very well typed. If you put a badly typed Devon Rex besides a badly typed Cornish Rex it will be hard to tell the difference, but most experienced breeders would be.

The same thing goes for other breeds. The experienced ones know what to look for and what to FEEL after. The Norweigan Forest Cat has a very special fur and head, Russian Blue has very special coat and eyes etc. But it can be hard to tell of a badly typed cat is purebred or not.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

3katzman said:


> Man I have never heard of a cat carrying his own papers to prove his identity. I must look into this. So if said cat has no papers on him he cant be purbred as there are no identifying charecteristics to say it is purbred unless he is carting those **** papers. Is that right?


i totally agree with you some people in this forum are negative ,if you dont have papers then its just a long hair domestic.i have found bobtail cats feral, that look just like the ones on the sites i have been on,but everyone in this forum says they are just reular bobtails.i have adopted a persian from the humane society,but i guess she is just a domestic long hair because she dosent have papers.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

teebos69 said:


> 3katzman said:
> 
> 
> > Man I have never heard of a cat carrying his own papers to prove his identity. I must look into this. So if said cat has no papers on him he cant be purbred as there are no identifying charecteristics to say it is purbred unless he is carting those **** papers. Is that right?
> ...


Strictly speaking all cats without papers are Domestic Shorthair/Longhairs. What's so negative about that? Moggies are wonderful cats just as any purebred cat is and as long as one isn't interested in breeding or showing, who cares about the papers of the cat has X % of a certain breed in it or not. It's just technicalities.


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm not negative -- just giving you the facts. Most people would swear their moggie "looks JUST like a purebred of somekind or a mix of some kind"...and it's actually a lot more clear-cut than that. I have had three moggies in my life and I think they are wonderful and beautiful and wouldn't trade them for any purebred. 

As for your bobtails, you already described what they look like, and they don't meet american bobtail breed standards, so that's why I replied to you as such. Not negative -- just honest.


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

A lot of the reason people seem so "negative" about cats being just domestic short/medium/long haired instead of purebred is because we've had quite a few people say things like "my cat looks just like a siamese and want to sell the kittens, how much can I get for them?"

We're not exactly sure what motives people have when they ask the breed of their cat. I think a lot of people think of cats the same as dogs in that most people have golden retrievers and labs and terriers and specific breeds, and they know there are a lot of breeds of cat, so they must have one! 

I think sometimes it does get a little extreme. For instance, people who rescue persians from a persian rescue don't have papers so they technically have a domestic long hair. Persians LOOK persian, so you can pretty safely say its some sort of persian type cat. But in the most technical sense of the "breed" you have no proof. 

There are many distinct looking breeds. I'm perfectly happy saying someone has a persian, or ragdoll, or siamese without papers... just as long as they don't go overboard trying to breed and make money off the cats they know nothing about. It doesn't hurt me in the least to give a breed name to a cat. Just like someone mentioned in another thread that its odd we don't call them mixes, like a persian mix or a siamese mix... just jump right to DSH or DLH. Again, I have no problem with that!

But at least in this case, all we STILL know about the cat in question is it is black and has long hair... that honestly doesn't say much of anything. I think in situation, saying "without papers, you have a DLH" nobody is being negative.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

well some peeps in here are extremely ignorant.i have a white copper eyed spayed,white persian,not interested in selling her.i saved her from the humane society.she does not have papers but to me she is considered a full breed so please just drop it............... :twisted:


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

Ok, its dropped - this still isn't your thread though, so I believe the ORIGINAL topic is still open for discussion.


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## teebos69 (Apr 2, 2005)

i never meant by dropping it ,that it was my thread.what i meant was to please stop trying to tell me that my cat is just a domestic breed.


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

I think Osnowbunnie answered your issue about your persian though, and I agree. Persians and siamese are those iffy ones. If a cat has a pushed in nose, I always call it a persian, even without papers. It's just...one of those things. Plus, persians are so common that it's not surprising for them to be found in shelters. Now if someone says they have an egyptian mau or a singapura, there's another story.  

Please don't get upset over a petty issue like this. Your cat is your cat, and you love it. It's beautiful no matter what, and that's all that matters.


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## SiberianKitty (Dec 10, 2004)

Oh...your cat can be whatever purebred breed he wants to be or looks like. If you take him to the vet and you fill out some papers...then the paper, not literally...but it's typed on there, asks for the cat's breed then you can say he is whatever purebred cat he confirms the most to. The people at the vet clinic don't care. They will input whatever breed you wrote down in the computer for their records. If you're not sure what breed your cat is then they will make things simple and put down DLH. As oppose to trying to figure it out. People are lazy. Those darn humans!

You just need the papers in order to register or show your cat (if he's not neutered). Other then that you let your cat be whatever he wants to be after all...it is a free country!

_________________ 

"If we would spend as much time and effort improving ourselves mentally, physically and genetically, breeding ourselves properly as we do our animals...can you image how much better the human race would become?" ~ Corina A. Gonzalez


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

(SiberianKitty Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:47 am) 
"You just need the papers in order to register or show your cat (if he's not neutered). Other then that you let your cat be whatever he wants to be after all...it is a free country!" 

I agree!
O, and I tried the quoit thing and cant seem to get it... O, well.  
Anyway, I feel people pin their hopes on having purebreds when they may be anything other than that, even with characteristics of a purebred (Just me). I also feel their are a lot of unregistered and paperless cats out there... but that does not mean they are simply household cats. As to the markings question, no most cats cannot be recognized by markings usually they mean nothing. Just an off track comment in purebreds if a certain breed has a color type of Queen like a tortie and she produces a red or pointed red then they will have dark brown or black spots on their nose. Just thought I would add that


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

CyPurrHimmie said:


> if a certain breed has a color type of Queen like a tortie and she produces a red or pointed red then they will have dark brown or black spots on their nose. Just thought I would add that


What? I didn't really understand your post, but if you are saying that tortie point or tortie queens that give birth to red point or red kittens they will always have black spots on their nose...that's not true. A tortie or tortie point is perfectly capable of having a true red or red point cat. (pointed only if the parent carries the gene of course). It happens all the time.


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

Sorry if I did not explain this well...
Let see, what I mean is in some breed types like Himalayans, if you breed a female Tortishell to any other pointed Himmie mail and she produces a red color carrier (solid) or a red point himmie it will have black or brown spots on its nose. Hope that is said in a better way.


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## EllyMay (Dec 31, 2004)

The others have had some good explanations. I've heard of that black spot wives tale, too. 

I face this issue with Charlie. He's a Tabby Maine **** (both parents Maine ****/Tabby), but always write him down as a DLH or Maine **** mix because he has no papers. There's just no real knowing whether or not they are pure bred without the papers, that's all.


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

CyPurrHimmie said:


> Sorry if I did not explain this well...
> Let see, what I mean is in some breed types like Himalayans, if you breed a female Tortishell to any other pointed Himmie mail and she produces a red color carrier (solid) or a red point himmie it will have black or brown spots on its nose. Hope that is said in a better way.


In some breeds? What other breeds does this happen in? I have never personally seen that happen.


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

ForJazz


> In some breeds? What other breeds does this happen in? I have never personally seen that happen.


I know American Shorthair's, Persian's, Himalayans and exotic's have this trait as well as any cat that has tortie in them (usually). Other than that I am not sure of what other breeds have this.


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

I emailed my friend who is a Ragamuffin/Japanese Bobtail breeder and asked her this question. Her response was:



> As for your question about the colors.. any cat that expresses the red gene (whether solid, tabby, color point, mink, silvered, smoke, shaded, etc) regardless of what colors its parents are, CAN get black or dark brown spots on its nose. They are freckles! Reds frequently freckle as they get older. I'll have to take some pics of Bronx and Walker's faces for you.. Bronx is 4 years old now, and Walker will be 3 this summer (time flies!!), and both have a good spattering of freckles coming in! Nose leather is the place most people think of when they think of the freckles, but they actually appear on all parts of the cat. Walker has a couple of muzzle and eyebrow whiskers that have "turned" black over the years, where his freckles have come in under the fur. He's also got some random black hairs in his tail. Bronx has a big one right in the middle of his bottom lip too! I think freckles are just adorable.. they make each cat so unique!


So...I guess it has nothing to do with tortie parents.


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## Feral Fan (Feb 9, 2005)

I never really thought of them as freckles before this post, too funny. My big red boy (the orange Fawkes) is very dark in colour and his nose is soo freckled that it is hard to tell they are spots as they almost completely cover his nose! My calico just has a big beauty mark on her nose (but she didn't spend as much time as Fawkes, feral out in the sun... I imagine like human red heads with freckles the sun can be a factor!).


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## CyPurrHimmie (Apr 23, 2005)

Please excuse me, I did not know that... I was told of this buy an all-breed judge, that is the tortie thing in relation to my red point Himalayan. Well, their you go I have once again learned something new


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## ForJazz (Dec 30, 2003)

Oh no problem -- I was just wondering what was behind that b/c I had never heard it before. Thought I'd ask Kate -- she knows everything about colors.  Sharing info, that's what we're here for.


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## PrincessOreo (Feb 27, 2005)

Ok,
I have a question. Silly, I am sure, but I am gonna ask anyway. If you can not register what you believe to be purebred, then how do any cats ever get registered? I mean, what I am trying to say is, how do the kittens ever get registered if they won't even allow you to register a cat you believe to be purebred? Do you follow me? LOL I know it sounds confusing... But when I wanted to register Oreo as an American Bobtail, no one would hear me out. I just want to know how any cats are ever registered if they aren't allowed to be if their parents weren't registered? I mean, where does the cycle start??? It's extremely confusing to me. The only "purebred" with papers I have ever owned is a Chihuahua. Still have her, she is 7 months old and Oreo's best friend.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

PrincessOreo said:


> Ok,
> I have a question. Silly, I am sure, but I am gonna ask anyway. If you can not register what you believe to be purebred, then how do any cats ever get registered? I mean, what I am trying to say is, how do the kittens ever get registered if they won't even allow you to register a cat you believe to be purebred? Do you follow me? LOL I know it sounds confusing... But when I wanted to register Oreo as an American Bobtail, no one would hear me out. I just want to know how any cats are ever registered if they aren't allowed to be if their parents weren't registered? I mean, where does the cycle start??? It's extremely confusing to me. The only "purebred" with papers I have ever owned is a Chihuahua. Still have her, she is 7 months old and Oreo's best friend.


The cycle starts when one or more breeders start up a project to create a new breed. They seek permission from their cat organisation to breed non-approved breeds/mixes in order to create a new breed. Every organisation have their own rules when the breeders later on wanna have their new breed approved. Usually they have to present a certain number of cat (of this new breed) at an international cat show, they have to form a breed standard and they have to show the lineage of the cats for a certain number of generations. If the breed is approved, some organisations allow people to register their moggies as this breed IF they follow the standard, most cats don't however. After a while, when the gene pool is big enough, the possibility to register moggies is closed and only the registred cats are allowed for breeding and the only cats EVER to register as this breed are offspring of those cats.


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