# Do cats "feel" love?



## RachandNito (Nov 21, 2008)

This has been a topic of great pondering for me, ever since a philosophy lecture we had about a week or so ago. My professor presented an argument, detailing the minds of animals. He said that without a phonetic language, they cannot "think" in the traditional sense. They have no inner monologue, and they live their lives by the moment. They have no emotions besides basic instincts (fear, contentment, aggression...) and thus are incapable of feeling love. Instead, what we cat owners (or should I say, cat servents :lol see as love, is actually a cat connecting a creature with food. 

I think this is a bunch of pish posh! When Nito and I are cuddling, the look in his eyes is unmistakable love. Just because they don't talk like us, doesn't mean they can't think. And, hey, he tries to talk! How do they know that animals _don't_ think with language? Many animals can understand a multitude of human words, they just don't have the correct mouth apparatus to form the words themselves. Humans need to stop considering intelligence as merely a human trait! 

I am wondering what everyone else thinks about this matter.


----------



## bluemilk (Oct 3, 2005)

Check out St. Thomas Aquinas. OF COURSE THEY FEEL LOVE.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Depends what you mean by "love." That can mean a lot of different things. The Greeks had five words for love, dividing it into (roughly): desire (as in ambition); affection; contentment; platonic love; and sensual or physical love. I would say that cats' emotion that we call love bridges the second and third Greek kinds of love. But whatever it is that's going on in a cat's mind, it's definitely something that's triggered by their relationship with their people.

As an aside, I'd guess your professor is either playing devil's advocate to get you to think, or your professor doesn't have and has never had any pets.


----------



## RachandNito (Nov 21, 2008)

He's never had any pets besides a turtle :mrgreen:


----------



## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Ooooh I hated philosophy! :evil: 
My professor was always smiling a smarmy kind of smile. Like he had a secret and we'd never be able to figure it out. The lecture that sticks out best to me, was when he discussed that ALL actions are based in selfishness. Everything you or anyone does, is because of a selfish reason; 
...it will make me feel good. (self gratification)
...I have to do this chore or I'll get punished. (covering your butt)
...I volunteer. (more self gratification)
...obey the traffic laws. (covering your butt so you don't get punished by law enforcement)
...disobey traffic laws. (self gratification)
...eat, because I have to, to survive. (still self gratification)


----------



## RachandNito (Nov 21, 2008)

yep yep! Just had that lecture, it's called egoism- that all we are capable of pursuing is ultimately our own pleasure. What really got to me was the lecture about how we don't really have free-will. Stupid stuff. At least it gets you thinking, and teaches you about forming a sound argument.


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Philosophical questions about altruism and (especially) free will are to my mind perfectly legitimate. There are some very interesting questions there! The notion that we need language to perform certain kinds of cognition is also a viewpoint that's held by a number of people, although it's certainly it's not held by everyone.

I believe that this is only meant to apply to higher cognitive functions, though, not to things like emotions.

Do cats love? You can't answer that without defining "love."

In one of my philosophy classes in college we once watched a video on "are animals conscious" and the professor asked us to write down every different definition of "consciousness" used in the video. One of the reasons no one in the program could agree on whether animals had consciousness is that none of them were answering the same question. Definitions of consciousness ranged from everything to, "Can animals form an internal representation of the spatial layout of their environment" (yes) to "Are animals aware of their own mortality." (Probably not.)

If you define "Does my cat love me?" to mean, "Does it make my cat happy to be near me?" I'd say yes, they do. 

If you define it to mean, "Does my cat consider my well-being as important as, or more important than, its own?" than I'd say fat chance.

If you define it as, "Does my cat get a warm fuzzy feeling when they look at me?" I'd say, maybe -- I'd like to think so. 

If you define it as, "Am I in some way special to my cat in a way no other human is?" then I'd say no. My cats would be perfectly happy with any kind owner, whereas the average human wouldn't want their lover swapped out for a randomly chosen replacement!


----------



## ShadowKitty (Nov 18, 2008)

Philosophy is not the discipline that can answer this question, although philosophers never seem to tire of trying to answer questions best left to science. Animal behaviorists are finding that more and more animals are capable of emotions we once thought were left to us - dogs feel envy, many primates have a sense of fairness and altruism, and a very few are self-conscious. I also think it's rather bogus of your philosophy professor to put 'love' on some higher plane than other emotions or instincts.

But a shorter answer, of course they feel love. Anyone who's had a loving pet can answer that right away.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I had a great philosophy professior. I would have elected another couple of courses if I'd had room in my schedule. A good professor wants you to prove him wrong. We had to be told to leave that classroom..(seriously), and it was a 2 hour summer course. He was great!  

I believe our pets feel something special towards us. I think it's love.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

My opinion: cats, dogs, birds and rats DO feel happiness, contentment, and affection for and in the presence of their special people. They voluntarily express this emotion (it's not instinct) and they don't share it with just anyone. I define that as love.

I'm sure other animals do the same as well, but I have no direct experience beyond these four kinds.


----------



## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

Cats DO have language. Their language may not be as complex as ours, or able to express as wide a variety of ideas, but they do have language. And they are able to think and plan ahead. How would cats be able to hunt if they could not?

And what limited mind said thinking with words is the only kind of thought process that can exist? I have long held the belief that cats think in images, rather than in words, and the way Arianwen communicates with me has proven me right time and again.

To prove that Arianwen is really trying hard to learn some English words, and that she does feel love, I'll cite what she did just a couple of hours ago. I went to go lay down, and Arianwen came in our room. But she didn't jump on the bed to ask for treats. Instead, she said, very plainly, "Love", and then jumped up to snuggle against my hurting leg. She sniffed and flopped against my leg, purring like a little engine, and pushed herself up against my leg for maximum snuggle-ness and warmth.
That sequence of events proves she plans ahead, she does have language, and most of all, Arianwen does feel love. :heart


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 29, 2008)

Great post, Bethany.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Bethany said:


> If you define it as, "Am I in some way special to my cat in a way no other human is?" then I'd say no. My cats would be perfectly happy with any kind owner,


When I see the poor older cats who've spent a lifetime with one, two, or several, humans, perhaps the only home they've ever known, who are now in a shelter because their humans died, got sick, too old, or whatever, I'd have to disagree with that statement, Bethany. Perhaps younger cats are more adaptable at accomodating to new homes. But to say these lifetime companions would be as happy doesn't jive with the absolutely dejected and abandoned body language they display.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Anybody wants to ponder this question in more depth should read this book:

The Nine Emotional Lives of Cats


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

coaster said:


> When I see the poor older cats who've spent a lifetime with one, two, or several, humans, perhaps the only home they've ever known, who are now in a shelter because their humans died, got sick, too old, or whatever, I'd have to disagree with that statement, Bethany. Perhaps younger cats are more adaptable at accomodating to new homes. But to say these lifetime companions would be as happy doesn't jive with the absolutely dejected and abandoned body language they display.


All I know is that in August, my father helped me move. Who do you suppose the cats wanted to drape themselves all over in the hotel in the evening? Me, who feeds them, pets them, loves them, is the provider of all good things in their furry little lives? Or my father, who they'd hardly ever met, and whose arrival was accompanied by complete upheaval of their entire life?

Hint: it wasn't me.


----------



## RachandNito (Nov 21, 2008)

He probably slips them tasty treats when you aren't looking. :wink: 

Nito does that to me all the time. Usually when he thinks his dinner should be much larger than it was, and is cross with me for ignoring his 'FEED ME!' yowls. He'll go and drape himself over my boyfriend's roommate who expressively hates cats, and pushes him off every time he comes near him. 

Ah, silly kitties


----------



## white_elanor (May 31, 2008)

It seems to me that cats will often interact with someone who is ignoring them, more than someone who is willing and ready to pet them. Maybe it is some weird version of how if a person you are interested in ignores you, you are supposed to want them more. Although I doubt that cats plays the stupid dating games we humans do. I think it is more of a "hey, everyone else pays attention to me, what is up with you?" kind of thing.

Now I've got to go fish two kittens out of a tunnel of wrapping paper.


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Human love? Not a chance. Cats are smart, but not that smart. Do they feel something we might call "love"? Possibly, although it's probably far more like trust than anything else.


----------



## ShadowKitty (Nov 18, 2008)

Huge said:


> Human love? Not a chance. Cats are smart, but not that smart. Do they feel something we might call "love"? Possibly, although it's probably far more like trust than anything else.


Intelligence is not a necessary component for emotions. Researches are showing that love is formed in the brain from various hormones. These hormones, oxytocin, vasopressin, and endorphins, play a role in maternal behaviors, social behaviors, trust, sexual feelings, and bonding - all those things we tend to lump together under the title of "love". These hormones are present in all mammals. 

A young kitten trusts and is closely bonded to its mother. It displays behaviors very similar to the ones that a small human shows towards its mother. It seems rather arrogant to say that the human child loves is mother but the kitten does not. The kitten certainly cannot think "I love my mommy" but those same chemicals responsible for the feelings in a child who can think and say "I love my mommy" are present in the kitten.

I use the example of a kitten and its mother because that may be very close to how our cats see us.


----------



## OctoberinMaine (Sep 12, 2006)

I'm not sure cats feel love in the way we think of it. I interpret it more as _comfort. _ They certainly know if they're comfortable or not, both in survival things like getting fed and having a roof over their heads, but also having an owner with a gentle spirit who treats them well. I'd think Murphy's ultimate compliment to me would be, "I feel very comfortable with you."


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

I don't think emotions have anything to do with intelligence, but we have to remember that love is essentially a social emotion. Cats are social animals, but they're a much different sort of social animal than we are. The two biggest things humans think of when they think of "love" are the love between partners and the love between a parent and a child. Cats don't pair-bond the way humans do, and while they do raise babies, it isn't the sort of long-term relationship a human has. (Cats only have to refrain from throttling their offspring for a few months, humans have to manage to do it for 18 years!)

From an evolutionary standpoint, humans love because we need to have long-term relationships with other humans for our own survival... and in particular, because our offspring take so darn long to grow up! Love is what keeps parents together for long enough to raise their children, love is what keeps parents from throttling their teenagers, love is what gets your siblings to help you out when times are tough.

Cats do have social relationships with their parents, their siblings, and with friends (not with mates so much) but they're not the same sort of relationships humans have and they don't depend on them for survival to the extent that humans do.

So do cats love? As I said above, it depends on how to define love. But even if cats were as smart as humans I'd be surprised if they "loved" in exactly the same way humans do. Socially they're just too different from us.

Much as I hate to say it (being a confirmed cat person) but I'd guess that dogs love people in way more similar to human love then cats do, simply because their social structure is more similar to ours.

Aside: despite all the chasing, I think Misty and Stormy love each other more than either loves me.


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

It's a warm fuzzy feeling to think that cats "love" but they don't. They WANT and NEED and have instincts and bonds, but nothing that we would recognise as love.


----------



## brokenrose (Nov 25, 2008)

RachandNito said:


> This has been a topic of great pondering for me, ever since a philosophy lecture we had about a week or so ago. My professor presented an argument, detailing the minds of animals. He said that without a phonetic language, they cannot "think" in the traditional sense. They have no inner monologue, and they live their lives by the moment. They have no emotions besides basic instincts (fear, contentment, aggression...) and thus are incapable of feeling love.
> 
> Humans need to stop considering intelligence as merely a human trait!


Well said RachandNito.
of course they feel love. Cats are very intellegent. Like you said, you can just tell. Arthur knows that I love him and I know that he loves me (even if it is just cos I give him food and let him get away with murder!!) 
I did philosophy as a level and this comment about animals not been able to "think" would leve me angry time after time. Stupid lecturers! :lol:


----------



## cmw0829 (Nov 23, 2008)

Whatever it is, I interpret my cat's behavior toward me as love. She interprets my behavior toward her as love. 

After all, my son learned that I love him because 1) I tell him, 2) I hug, kiss, snuggle with him (not so much now that he's 17 :lol: ), 3) I protect him, 4) I provide for him and 5) I always act in his best interests. It's what he understands love to be. Why can't a cat learn these same things?


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

I think there's a good case for saying that love is an entirely ficticious human invention.
However, I personally think that love in it's basic form does exist. If people want to apply that to an animal then they have to attibute it to all animals, be it cats, dogs, rabbits, octopi, fish and chickens.


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Huge said:


> I think there's a good case for saying that love is an entirely ficticious human invention.
> However, I personally think that love in it's basic form does exist. If people want to apply that to an animal then they have to attibute it to all animals, be it cats, dogs, rabbits, octopi, fish and chickens.


Why? Cats != dogs != rabbits != octopi != fish != chickens. Their social structures are different, their brain structures are different, their behaviors are different.

That's the same sort of argument that's used to suggest that no animal but humans have various cognitive abilities. "Chimpanzees are animals! So are guppies! Therefore if you say that chimpanzees can plan a series of actions, you have to say that guppies can, too, because they're BOTH ANIMALS!"

Sorry, that's silly. The world isn't divided into humans and animals. For one thing, humans ARE animals. For another, suggesting that all animals (from fish to our fellow primates) are exactly alike in terms of cognitive abilities except for US who are TOTALLY DIFFERENT is just... well... demonstrably not true.

Aside: what would the case be for saying that love is a fictitious human emotion? I don't see one.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

While Bethany makes some excellent points with respect to the social nature of some forms of love, and the social structure and interaction of cats with respect to each other, it's my opinion (and based on my observations and reading) that cats' relationship to their humans is different than their relationships with each other. Two points: 1) if cats' relationship with their humans is of the same nature as their feline relationships, their only reasons for associating with us at all would be for their physical needs. Who, with a cat, hasn't observed their cat enjoying their time with their humans when physical needs weren't involved? Some cat breeds are known for their affinity for humans. Why would Twinkie run to the bedroom when I change the sheets or fold the laundry? Because that's when we have some fun together. 2) It's known that cats reserve their meow-type vocalizing principally for their communications with their people. If they weren't getting something out of those communications, why would they even do it? Why would they learn to meow at all? I have conversations with my cats, sometimes in English, and sometimes in the form of imitating their vocalizations. I have no idea what I'm saying when I do that, but I can definitely see different reactions. And likewise when I talk to them in English I don't expect them to know what I'm saying, but they do enjoy "talking" with me, and I can deduce that, again, from observiing their behavior. Why do they run to the room where the toys are when I say "playtime!!" if it's not because they understand the word and know that it's going to be fun? It's not something they do with other cats, and only vaguely simulates what they might do outside.

So, my conclusions from the above: cats do get something out of their relationships with humans that they don't get from socializing with other cats, and that what they're getting out of it is pleasurable to them, and that it's more than just food and shelter. Love? I guess that depends on the definition.


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

I dont know, although I'd like to think so.

Toby certainly appreciates my company. There are many a time when he comes to me just to be stroked or petted. And there have been times when he has come to me when I have been upset or ill, perhaps just checking if I'm ok? Who knows - but again, it would be nice to think so.

Why does Toby go around the house meowing on the odd weekend I cant take him to my mothers with me? Why did my mothers cat, Felix, start sleeping on her pillow from the first night after his brother died?

I find it hard to believe that cats dont have any affection towards us. Whether thats 'love' in the way that we define it (love is not 'fiction' by the way - its a true emotion) is open to debate, but someone would have to work very hard to convince me that Toby doesnt feel some kind of affection towards me.

As for dogs ... I'm utterly convinced Benji loves me. Why else would he completely ignore the person who feeds him etc and be with me the entire time even though he only sees me once a month and is looked after by my mother every day. And lets not forget those slobbery wet doggie kisses :lol:


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

coaster said:


> While Bethany makes some excellent points with respect to the social nature of some forms of love, and the social structure and interaction of cats with respect to each other, it's my opinion (and based on my observations and reading) that cats' relationship to their humans is different than their relationships with each other.


I don't know. I agree that my cats' relationship with me is different from their relationship with each other, but I still think it's *based* in the sort of feelings they have with other cats.

My relationship with my cats is different from my relationship with my children would be, if I had children. And I certainly don't think my cats ARE children! But I suspect our affinity for falling in love with small cute animals is based on our affinity for loving our children. I doubt we evolved a special capacity for loving our pets, rather it hijacked a capacity that evolved for different reasons.

Similarly I don't think my cats think I *am* their mother, their kitten, or their littermate. But, I do think my relationship with them is based on capacities that were evolved in order to support those relationships. Cats, I think, are still too close to the ancestral form to have evolved a special affinity for loving humans.

I should add that I don't think cats' feelings for other cats is based strictly on survival needs. Like I said, I'm pretty sure Misty and Stormy are more important to each other than I am to either of them. (They don't sit by the window and cry when *I* leave the house!) Though sadly they don't cuddle they do play together and do seem to enjoy being in each others' company. (Sometimes. Sometimes they chase each other. They're sisters, after all!)


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Bethany said:


> Huge said:
> 
> 
> > I think there's a good case for saying that love is an entirely ficticious human invention.
> ...


I'll respond to your first points. All very good. I was being a bit daft I realise :lol: Maybe I need to make it a bit clearer (cos I thought "what rubbish did I just write" :lol:
To my mind Chimps don't "love" and as they are far superiour to cats in intelligence and brain development, then cats can't love nor do they percieve it.
The argument that love doesn't exist is purely based on the idea that love is a human invention to describe the natural bond between different people (father - son, mother - father) etc. It's not one I suscribe to, but it's an interesting idea.

Humans are simply far beyond most animals (apart from the higher apes), and the proof of that is our development.


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Do you have any proof that chimps don't feel love, Hugh? I'm not suggesting you are wrong - its a genuine query.

As for human being far beyond other animals - although I obviously take your point - in my view our very intelligence had led us to be the most stupid animals on the planet.


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Huge said:


> Humans are simply far beyond most animals (apart from the higher apes), and the proof of that is our development.


In what sense?

You can't just say, "humans are far beyond most animals" unilaterally. There are some things that humans do seem to be truly and genuinely unique in (linguistic ability), some things that we share with most of the animal kingdom (visual processing), and some things we share with some animals and not others. (I suspect a fish doesn't have a conception of the notion of unfairness, but dogs and monkeys seem to.) Some things some animals are better at than we are. (Animals who cache have phenomenal memories, for example.)

I think you can take the desire to avoid anthropomorphism too far. Frans de Waal calls this anthropodenial. He points out that we can't forget that animals are not people -- but we also can't forget that people _are_ animals.


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Theres nothing special about humans. Indeed, some people suggest that we are NOT the most intelligent animals on earth (bear in mind that is not what I am claiming)


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

I disagree that there's nothing special about humans. If there were nothing special about humans, we'd all still be grubbing in the dirt for grubs and picking berries off the bushes, living and dying naked out in the open. Humans have something that you can give different names to and that sets them apart from the other animals. I didn't say it necessarily set them above; but it does set them apart. Call it spirit, soul, intuition, or whatever, humans have a sense of themselves in the stream of time; recognizing their beginnings, thinking about and planning and working for their future, recognizing their endings, and hoping for something beyond that. Man has the ability to make connections where there's no obvious connection to be made: lightning sets the trees on fire <-> fire is warm <-> fire can cook meat <-> let's try to make our own fire. There's no indication that any animal has that indefinable something extra that has enabled man to get outside of himself and his present circumstances and begin to cultivate crops, create language and the written word, build civilizations, architecture, scince, art, music, and yes........make war, kill each other, rape the planet. Yes, humans are animals (in more ways than one), but there's something better about humans, and there's something worse. Yes, there's definitely something special about humans.


----------



## momocat (Aug 29, 2008)

Nice post.

I think our cats and other animals feel (sense possibly?) love. It may be different that how we perceive it, but it's still a comforting feeling for them. I know for a fact that animals feel emotions. you can see it in their body language, eyes, tone of meows, and so forth. 

I just lost my train of thought. LOL.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

I'll bet at least some of the differences of opinion in this thread are prompted by the differences in the relationships between the posters and their cats. Even cats raised together from infancy form different bonds with their humans, and not all cats, no matter their background, become closely attuned to their caretakers.

I have three cats, but it is because of my relationship with Allen alone that I KNOW cats are capable of love. His behavior with me is unexplainable in any other way, and the affection in his eyes when he comes to me is undeniable. The fact that I feed, protect and provide for him has nothing to do with it - I feed, protect and provide for Rachel and Meghan, too, yet they do not respond to me in anything close to the degree that he does.

While I like to believe that all my cats "love" me, I probably wouldn't be sure of the feline capacity to truly love if I had to base my opinion on the relationships I have with Allen's sisters. They certainly spend time with me and enjoy our interactions, but I kinda get the feeling it's as much for their benefit as it is for mine. With Allen... well, he simply _adores_ me, for me.

Bethany, 'though I disagree with your point of view, I can understand where you're coming from. Huge, our viewpoints are so far apart I hardly even know if an understanding is possible. Love is not an invention, it exists all around us. If you don't believe in love, there's no basis for discussing whether cats are capable of it. :wink


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

melysion said:


> Do you have any proof that chimps don't feel love, Hugh? I'm not suggesting you are wrong - its a genuine query.
> 
> As for human being far beyond other animals - although I obviously take your point - in my view our very intelligence had led us to be the most stupid animals on the planet.


There no proof of anything that's been said in this thread. Of course there's no proof that chimps or dolphins (often regarded to be more intelligent than us), can't love. However there's no proof that they can.

Human beings ARE special. Do you think a Chimp looks at a car and thinks "ohh that looks fun" and then builds one? Of course they don't. Yet they have all the attibutes needed. Except for that extra intelligence.



coaster said:


> I disagree that there's nothing special about humans. If there were nothing special about humans, we'd all still be grubbing in the dirt for grubs and picking berries off the bushes, living and dying naked out in the open. Humans have something that you can give different names to and that sets them apart from the other animals. I didn't say it necessarily set them above; but it does set them apart. Call it spirit, soul, intuition, or whatever, humans have a sense of themselves in the stream of time; recognizing their beginnings, thinking about and planning and working for their future, recognizing their endings, and hoping for something beyond that. Man has the ability to make connections where there's no obvious connection to be made: lightning sets the trees on fire <-> fire is warm <-> fire can cook meat <-> let's try to make our own fire. There's no indication that any animal has that indefinable something extra that has enabled man to get outside of himself and his present circumstances and begin to cultivate crops, create language and the written word, build civilizations, architecture, scince, art, music, and yes........make war, kill each other, rape the planet. Yes, humans are animals (in more ways than one), but there's something better about humans, and there's something worse. Yes, there's definitely something special about humans.


Great post.



Auntie Crazy said:


> I'll bet at least some of the differences of opinion in this thread are prompted by the differences in the relationships between the posters and their cats. Even cats raised together from infancy form different bonds with their humans, and not all cats, no matter their background, become closely attuned to their caretakers.


There are fewer people participating in this thread that raised their cats from birth than there are people who think cats can love. It makes sense what you're saying, but it's just not the case here


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

Intelligence does not equal 'special' in my view, Hugh. It just equals intelligence. And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we are 'better' than other animals. Who the heck do we think we are, lording it over everything else? Anyway, I could go into the debate far more thoroughly but wont, as we would be going way OT.

Thing is, we don't know how cats think, or dogs, or any other animal at all. And we never will. So, although we cant prove that they 'love', we cant disprove it either.

Personally, however, I think I prefer to go with the they 'love' us opinion, whatever form their love happens to be.


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Well that's fair enough. These things are always pretty grey, so we can't really know for sure either way.

You know I love being devil's advocate. It's just the way I am  The problem is, I'm not very good at it :lol:


----------



## melysion (Mar 12, 2007)

:lol: :lol: :lol: Hugh


----------



## doublemom (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm choosing to believe that my cats LOVE me unconditionally, and I them. There are just things that in my mind can't be explained any other way. Why, when I have a migraine, does my old Fuzzy stop what she's doing, and come and wrap herself around my head and purr my migraine away? What's the benefit in that for her? She's getting nothing out of it except to know that she's helping her human feel better. She also sleeps on my hips when my bursitis kicks in, but ONLY when they hurt, never when I'm feeling fine. Again, there is nothing beneficial to her in doing that except for a warm sleeping spot on my hip, which she could get from any other human in the house or any of her many cat beds/other comfy places to sleep. 

My little Monkey NEEEEEEEEEDS to be held and loved and snuggled several times a day. He literally comes up to me and raises up on his back legs with his arms outstretched for me to hold him, just like a little kid would do. Then he snuggles up as close as he can under my chin and won't let go. He's not asking for food or water or a clean litter box or to play with a toy, he's just asking to be held and loved, nothing more, nothing less.

And our big Jet boy... he most definitely has a special place in his heart for one of my daughters. He loves us all, but when she is in the same room she is the center of his universe. Interesting considering she never is the one involved in feeding/grooming/giving treats, etc. or any other other things that a cat might learn to associate as a good thing coming from a human. She rarely even plays with him. Jet and my daughter simply have a connection between them that goes so deep that I can't begin to explain. She has a sleep disorder, and Jet stays with her every night until she falls asleep (which can take hours sometimes) and is with her immediately in the morning as soon as she starts to wake up. 

As for communicating with cats, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they can communicate with us humans if we're only willing to listen and learn what they have to say.

So, no, there is probably no scientific proof or any actual way to measure or even define "love", but I choose in my heart to believe that our cats DO love us. Now... I'm off to snuggle with my babies and tell them I love them   

Andi


----------



## petspy (Sep 11, 2008)

can someone tell me if my cat's love me, or only use me...  

*she* climbs up on me and nuzzles my chin to instigate petting.
I pet her for about 3 minutes till she gets bored and politely
leaves to do other things. She may repeat this ritual a few
times one after another. She does not relax for very long,
and has not napped while near me yet. no matter how
gentle I am, she ultimately gets up and is on her way.

*he* comes up to me, jumps on my lap, meows a few times to instigate petting.
I pet him, if I pause he may meow at me or nuzzle my hand or wrist to get me to
start petting him again. if I stop, he'll jump down and be on his way. he may come
back to try again, or not. If I keep petting him, he'll seldom leave, and will even
fall asleep right on or next to me while I warm him with any convenient body part.

ironically, they react opposite what you'd expect when I approach them.
she'll stand her ground and stays relaxed about me petting her,
while he gets nervous and will often squirm away at first.

don't get me wrong - after only 3 Months, I'm fine with the current relationship.
I'm just wondering if any of this is called "love" and if it's likely to evolve soon.
I don't let my cats in the bedroom yet. Once I do, and they can sleep above my
blanket over night, will that have any impact on our "relationship"? I've slept on
the couch a few times - he'll come over and nap by me, while she'll have none of it.

both cats do purr while I pet them, and occasionally soft bite me, but no kneading.

*I'm certain dogs do love their humans,
but the jury is still out for me on cats.*


----------



## RachandNito (Nov 21, 2008)

Petspy- personally, I think letting your kitties into your bed will really help your relationship. Back before I got Nito, when I live at home with the three boys, Lil'Fella used to sleep with me every night. Because of that, my relationship with him was more special than with the other two. I think that my kitties feel more safe and secure when they can snuggle up in the crook of my knee, and know that they are safe all night. I know I'm safe too, cause Nito growls whenever someone is coming.

You got your cats as adults, didn't you? It may take a little longer, but even if they only love you as their "servant" right now (don't be sad, all cats treat their owners like sevants) it will develop into love, I have no doubt! 

Hey, I have been wondering, did you ever name them or is it still "he" and "she" ?


----------



## mstx (Mar 4, 2008)

obvisly its still "he" and "she". Maybe naming them finally after 3 months will help too so that they know they are family


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Huge said:


> You know I love being devil's advocate. It's just the way I am  The problem is, I'm not very good at it :lol:


Good enough that I don't need to do it any more. Any forum only needs one devil's advocate, and I guess now

*YOU'RE IT!!*  8)


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

:lol: Fancy doing a time-share. I'll do 6 months, you do 6 and see what happens 


mstx said:


> obvisly its still "he" and "she". Maybe naming them finally after 3 months will help too so that they know they are family


Mee-OW. :lol:


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Regarding to playing devil's advocate.... No thanks not unless you announce that you are just asking people to consider another view. Otherwise it can leads to hard or hurt feelings, if the subject is a sensitive one. I know you are not _completely_ serious, but I honestly think it just causes problems.


----------



## mstx (Mar 4, 2008)

Maybe we could come up with a list of names and you could put them on little pieces of paper- scrunch them up in balls- toss them on the floor and which ever the kitty plays with the most is its new name!!!!!!


----------



## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

I like that!
Or, you could just try names out on them, and see what they respond to, and how.

That's how I knew Arianwen was the right name for my silver mackerel tabby baby. She responded to Arianwen, never having heard that name before.

Now, back on topic
In my opinion, cats do feel love, and they have a more direct way of communicating their love than any of the human languages we use.


----------



## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Re: humans being special.

Yes, but we have to be careful not to go to far.

Psychology went through this phase earlier in the century where animals (and even at times, people) were assumed to be this sort of black box in which nothing happened: just a connection between inputs and outputs. Some adherents to this school of thought still remain -- when I gave a practice lecture in grad school, 8 years ago now (that long?) the professor in charge yelled at me for saying that rats "anticipated" a shock because rats can't anticipate things. According to him, rats can't "anticipate" or "think" and if I gave undergrads the impression they did, all my future colleagues would dislike me. Really, he said that. Probably he was so vehement BECAUSE his viewpoint is on the way out, but still.

I remember a little Disney educational film we watched in elementary school which had the chorus, "The only thinking animal is you, you, YOU." Very catchy, certainly not true.

But it's a viewpoint that persists, ironically generally with the most hardnosed behaviorists on the one hand (animals are just inputs and outputs, they don't think) and with creationists on the other (man isn't an animal, he was created separately by God!)

Sure, it's undeniable that humans are unique among currently surviving animals in many ways. The most obvious to me as a psychologist is our linguistic ability -- many animals have impressive communication abilities, but none that we've found have anything like human language. (And believe me, people have looked really, REALLY hard.)

I think, however, that we may have an exaggerated idea of our own uniqueness by virtue of having out-competed all our closest relatives. I suspect if _**** neanderthalensis_ hadn't become extinct we might have a different notion of exactly how different we are from every other animal. We're completely unique among species surviving now, we're not quite as different when you consider the whole recent history of the planet.

So yeah, we're special. Animals are not human. But while we have ample evidence that we're different quantitatively from other animals, the question of whether we're different qualitatively is a matter of opinion. Humans ARE still animals, after all.


----------



## newkitty5 (Aug 18, 2008)

I do think most other animals, and probably cats, do feel love. This is an interesting article that discusses how different animals respond to the death of other animals: 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -baby.html

You can probably explain some of this away as "instinct," but how much of our own feelings and behaviors are driven by instinct..particularly parents' love for their children and children's love for their parents? There is no doubt to me that animals can feel "love" for their offspring, or something very similar, in the way that a human mother loves her child, even if it is just instinctual. 

I have heard the argument that pets like consistency and show affection to whoever is a source of security, food, and playtime. To me, this is vaguely similar to the love a young child has to his or her caregiver. Children are generally most bonded to their primary caregiver, the individual who provides them with love, warmth, security, and everything they need to survive. This probably develop as a survival instinct (young children want to stay close to their caregiver), but it does not mean that the child's love is not meaningful or legitimate. Overall, aren't feelings of love between adult humans also generally tied to feelings of mutual security, comfort, protection, and support?

I am not trying to trivialize our own feelings of love, as it is a real, strong, and powerful emotion. However, I think it is also deeply rooted in biology and evolution, and I do not consider it a feeling that requires a great deal of advanced intelligence or reasoning power.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Bethany said:


> I think, however, that we may have an exaggerated idea of our own uniqueness.


Humans are still animals in that they share the same physiology -- ie their physical bodies operate the same way. But personally, I think psychologists and psychiatrists take a too mechanistic and deterministic viewpoint of the human animal, and thus are seeing an under-aggerated (to make up a word on the spot) entity -- just a glorified animal. I think there's more to a human than that. There's more than flesh and bones; there's more than biochemical reactions. There's just too much that can't be quantified or even described, much less explained by science.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Huge said:


> :lol: Fancy doing a time-share. I'll do 6 months, you do 6 and see what happens


Well, you can have it full-time. It's hard work playing devil's advocate.

But I still want to be the forum grouch. That's more fun, and besides it comes naturally for me. :twisted:


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeanie said:


> Regarding to playing devil's advocate.... No thanks not unless you announce that you are just asking people to consider another view. .


That defeats the whole purpose of playing devil's advocate. You can't be taken seriously unless the other people in the discussion _think_ you're serious. And anyone whose feelings are that easily bruised be contrary opinion should stay out of the lounge or go post on one of those "yada yada" boards where everybody agrees with everybody, and where they're all half asleep with boredom, or maybe too enervated to do any critical thinking.


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

coaster said:


> Jeanie said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding to playing devil's advocate.... No thanks not unless you announce that you are just asking people to consider another view. .
> ...


Spot on.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

coaster said:


> Jeanie said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding to playing devil's advocate.... No thanks not unless you announce that you are just asking people to consider another view. .
> ...


Amen to that. I've learned so much because people spoke up and said, "Hey, I disagree, and here's why." I've disagreed with plenty of opinions on this forum, but never been offended by anyone - surprised and amused perhaps, but not offended. :wink :lol:


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks!! Then I think I'll go on disagreeing, in the hopes at least, that some might be amused. :lol: 8)


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

There is a huge difference between a philosophical discussion and an attack on the sincere beliefs or principles of other members. There are those who get joy out arguing and attacking, under the premise of sincerely felt opinions. There are those who "love a good fight," and enjoy watching the reaction of the other member. They will continue the argument, even though it means nothing to them. On occasion, these "devil's advocates" will even refer to the subject in other threads, hoping to cause a bit more hurt or continuation of the argument. This is neither informative nor fun. There are few things more enjoyable than a respectful, philosophical discussion, but those whose motives are to hurt or humiliate are not an asset to the forum. Eventually, they will reap the consequences of that sort of behavior.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

No disagreement there. The problem arises that some people are so sensitive to contrary opinion that even a philosophical discussion is perceived by them as an attack on principles or beliefs when none such was intended. I think it's important to look to the intent of the author of the message; only much less so the reaction of the readers. If the majority of the readers are offended, then off course, the author should rephrase or refrain, but if only a small minority of the readers are offended, then I think one can assume that it's their sensibilities that aren't suitable for that discussion rather than the discussion itself is unsuitable.


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

The readers read some posts. The moderators follow questionable threads post by post, and there is ongoing discussion. Consequences do not follow without considerable thought. And sometimes it's just plain obvious to all. We have quite a few members who never enter a serious discussion because of these fake "devil's advocates."


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm not doing any of those things by being a DA Jeanie. I'm merely thinking about different ideas and posting them. I don't do it to annoy and insult. On occasion I have offended people by pointing out a differing opinion and seeing if they're willing to think about it, and if it's a genuine problem, I will appologise when neccessary. However, if people just point blank refuse to acknowledge the opposite of what they believe, then that's when it gets frustrating.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Jeanie said:


> There is a huge difference between a philosophical discussion and an attack on the sincere beliefs or principles of other members. There are those who get joy out arguing and attacking, under the premise of sincerely felt opinions. There are those who "love a good fight," and enjoy watching the reaction of the other member. They will continue the argument, even though it means nothing to them. On occasion, these "devil's advocates" will even refer to the subject in other threads, hoping to cause a bit more hurt or continuation of the argument. This is neither informative nor fun. There are few things more enjoyable than a respectful, philosophical discussion, but those whose motives are to hurt or humiliate are not an asset to the forum. Eventually, they will reap the consequences of that sort of behavior.


I take your warning, Jeanie - it's as much the death of a forum when people are afraid to post honestly for fear of being attacked as it is when no one posts honestly for fear of offending someone. 

I don't think anyone meant to even pretend to be anything like what you've described, but, perhaps, the words "devil's advocate" meant more to some folks than others. I took it as play. *shrug*


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

There were no posts like that in this thread. Tim and Hugh were kidding.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Auntie Crazy said:


> I take your warning, Jeanie - it's as much the death of a forum when people are afraid to post honestly for fear of being attacked as it is when no one posts honestly for fear of offending someone. *


You're right, there's a balance between one extreme and the other, and it's not easy to find where that balance point is. I'm saying that you can't let a few people decide where that balance point is. If we didn't say anything that might offend someone, then we'd have to zip our lips and never say anything. There's always a danger someone is going to be offended when the subject is one that brings out widely-separated viewpoints. Do you refuse to discuss it because of that one or two people? I say NO. Especially when there is no intent to offend.

Playing devil's advocate is a useful discussion tactic in that it airs differing viewpoints in a discussion even when all participants might be of the same mind. If the one taking the devil's role is obvious in doing it, then the whole discussion is artificial. People are more likely to speak what's on their mind when they feel they have a vested interest in presenting their viewpoint. If they know the other person really agrees with them, but is just taking the contrary viewpoint for the sake of debate, then they have no vested interest. It's just a charade.

Another point to consider about the one playing the devil's advocate: maybe that person doesn't have a firm viewpoint as of yet and wants all viewpoints to be considered, so he tests out various viewpoints to see if that viewpoint has a solid base of reason and evidence behind it. Someone taking a viewpoint they don't really have an interest in maintaining and they don't have the points to support it will soon be found out by those with a more solid position. I've used this technique upon occasion and when someone poked holes in my arguments I knew the position wasn't defensible, and that told me something valuable about both those viewpoints.



Jeanie said:


> Tim and Hugh were kidding.


No, not really. I sprinkle my posts with happy smilies when I'm kidding.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Hmmm.

I guess there's been a misunderstanding on both sides here, then, Coaster. Dishonesty, for whatever the reason, is still dishonesty, and I don't subscribe to that at all (there you misunderstood me). I honestly thought you guys were airing disagreeing opinions that you actually felt, but doing it in a humorous way (that's where I misunderstood you).

If you take a position you truly don't feel and pretend you do, I'll have nothing to do with the conversation. If you're honest about where you stand and suggest alternatives that others disagree with, even those you might not agree with, all well and good. 

There has to be a balance between disagreeing and flaming, of course, but honesty must always be involved. 

Hope I've made my position clear.

And, wow, are we way off topic!


----------



## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Jeanie said:


> Tim and Hugh were kidding.





> No, not really. I sprinkle my posts with happy smilies when I'm kidding.


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, Tim. But I'm not using smilies either.



I guess that's settled, but we have run away with this thread. My apologies Rach. This is an interesting thread.

Do cats feel love? My opinion is that they do.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Auntie, playing devil's advocate for the reasons I outlined in my post above isn't being dishonest, IMO; it's a discussion and debating tactic to bring out all viewpoints on the subject at hand. I'm sorry you see it as dishonesty, but I don't and I respectfully disagree with you on that.

Maybe I should clarify that you don't walk away from the discussion leaving people to believe that was really your position; at some point you have to reveal that you've been playing d.a.


----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

I wasn't doing either as it happens (being dishonest or taking the mick), but nevermind.

I'll put a warning up next time.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)




----------



## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

mmm waffles.


----------



## mstx (Mar 4, 2008)

Tim now you got me wanting waffles!!!!!!


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Note that I posted a smiley with the waffle picture. :wink:


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 9, 2007)

What an interesting topic. 

The philosophical answers are very interesting as well and I am not sure I have much to add there.

I didn’t get to read everything yet, so I am not sure that this been addressed, but a definite measurable component of love is the chemical response in one’s brain. Endorphins and dopamine etc.

While I have never had it tested, when my cat is sprawled out in my lap, belly in the air, purring like crazy and drooling, I am pretty sure there’s got to be a good amount of dopamine running through those synapses of hers.

Regards,
Brian


----------



## rescuecatsrule (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Beauty felt love when she was with me - she'd follow me around and deliberately seek me out for love and strokes. Dylan's the same, only Dylan meows constantly when he wants attention.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 29, 2008)

How do you explain why cats generally run away from you when they're in trouble, rather than to you? This must tell you something about how a cats intelligence is different from humans. Not taking sides here, or playing DA, just asking, honest.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Oh, oh, I can answer that one! 

Cats are champions at reading cues (it's what keeps them alive and fed in the wild). When an owner is upset, their body language just about screams *threat* to a cat. Naturally, 'though it has no clue why it's human is acting aggressively, it runs away.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 29, 2008)

Yes I see what you mean in that case. Maybe I should phrase it more like, why do cats generally go off by themselves when they are sick or in trouble, rather than come to you. 

Do you think they are ever able to associate anything you do for them, like medicine, cleaning wounds, as being good, or do they just tolerate it? I sort of doubt it. That is one of the most frustrating things about caring for animals, IMO.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> Yes I see what you mean in that case. Maybe I should phrase it more like, why do cats generally go off by themselves when they are sick or in trouble, rather than come to you.
> 
> Do you think they are ever able to associate anything you do for them, like medicine, cleaning wounds, as being good, or do they just tolerate it? I sort of doubt it. That is one of the most frustrating things about caring for animals, IMO.


Well, the first part of your question goes back to instinct again. If they're sick or hurting, they're vulnerable; therefore, they hide.

While I think cats can trust their owners enough to let them do uncomfortable and even painful things to them, they aren't capable of reasoning out, "I am sick. I will not get well without X. My human knows this and my human even knows what X is. Therefore, what my human is doing to me is to make me well again."

It's kinda like the revenge thing. It's just not possible for a cat to do something for spite. They'd have to think, "I don't like going to the vet. My human is responsible for me going to the vet. My human doesn't like poop on the bed (this involves even more complex thought). Poop on the bed will make my human know I don't want to go to the vet. I will poop on the bed."

A cat could certainly poop on the bed because it's stressed out, but it won't, it CAN'T, do it for revenge. 

Er... I think I kinda got off topic, but hopefully you will find something useful in my rambling.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 29, 2008)

Auntie Crazy said:


> ...It's kinda like the revenge thing. It's just not possible for a cat to do something for spite.


Absolutely agree with you there.



Auntie Crazy said:


> ... Er... I think I kinda got off topic, ....


I don't think that's possible. Heck we even discussed waffles at some point.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Instinct is a "hard-wired" reaction. When an animal feels threatened and instant response is required, it's the hard-wired reaction that the muscles respond to. Humans are this way, too, but to a lesser extent than other animals. A human, by conscious and voluntary will can override instinctive reaction, but it's very, very difficult for an animal. It can be done, but it takes lots of conditioning. Teaching a cat not to bite you when you're playing with it is an example. And that's an instinctive reaction that's only loosely hard-wired in an adult cat, because it's a kitten behavior. Running away from a threat, or hiding when ill and injured, are very hard-wired reactions because they deal with survival, and you don't get much more hard-wired than that.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> Do you think they are ever able to associate anything you do for them, like medicine, cleaning wounds, as being good, or do they just tolerate it? I sort of doubt it. That is one of the most frustrating things about caring for animals, IMO.


I have to disagree with my Auntie on this one, based on my own experience. Mellie has FORL. She was in discomfort, likely in pain, for I don't know how long, a couple weeks at least, before I discovered the lesion and got her in to the vet for an extraction. After the recuperation period, I notice that not only was she more perky, as to be expected, but she was also more attentive to me -- more head butting, rubbing, etc -- all the behaviors that are associated with "affection" and bonding were quite noticeably increased after as compared to before. Nothing else had changed except that I took her in to the vet and afterward her pain in her tooth was gone. I can only attribute her changed behavior toward me as making the connection between me and the cessation of her pain. In other words, I believe that she knew that something I had done was what resulted in her healing, and that she was saying "thank you" in the way she knew how. (and this isn't the only example of me noticing something like this)

I really think animals are capable of more, and understand more, than the purely behavioralists would have us believe. Nancy -- your cats KNOW that you're taking care of them.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Animals becoming more affectionate after recovering from an illness or injury is well-documented. The why of it is totally up for grabs; I'm certainly not going to argue against gratitude as the cause. :mrgreen:

Remember, I firmly believe cats are capable of loving their special people. :luv


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Ah.....love, but not be thankful. Sounds like a three-year-old. :lol:


----------



## petspy (Sep 11, 2008)

someone earlier posted how your cat eventually "trusts" it's human,
consequently, I don't agree cats react that dramatically or consistently
to a humans negative emotive mood or body language. I'm a case in point;

every 2 weeks I trim my cats nails. i put on the same skin tight
long sleeve sweatshirt, and mill about my foyer waiting for a cat
to wander through so I can grab and subdue him for nail trimming.
( I want them to always feel safe where they play or sleep )
I'm very melancholy during this ritual, because I don't like to stress my
cats, but know the benefits of nail trimming far exceed their trouble.

the first time I did this when my cats were new to me, they would
run away from my attempts to grab them. but after only a Month
or two, they "trust" me, even though I'm sure instinctively they know
I'm up to no good - by my garb, demeanor, even my nervous sweat.

So after following this thread, I amend my initial statement;
Dogs do love their humans.
Cats can trust their humans, at least.


----------



## mstx (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes cats can trust humans. One sign of trust is if they show you thier stomach (this leaves them in a vulnarable postiion). Also cats can have affection for humas too, I dont think they really "feel" love but I do know they have affection and trust.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

coaster said:


> Ah.....love, but not be thankful...


Love originates within the one who loves, while gratitude is a thinking/feeling reaction to something done to the one feeling grateful. A grateful creature has to be able to recognize that circumstances could be different in order to be grateful for what exists. That's a more complex feeling than straight up love, and while I believe cats can both love and appreciate their humans, I'm not so sure they can understand the motives behind our behavior, even when it involves "helping" them by pilling, re-hydrating, force-feeding, etc. I think calmness during those activities can easily be explained by trust, rather than by understanding.



coaster said:


> .... Sounds like a three-year-old. :lol:


Yes, it kinda does, doesn't it? (Shared :lol


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

petspy said:


> someone earlier posted how your cat eventually "trusts" it's human,
> consequently, I don't agree cats react that dramatically or consistently
> to a humans negative emotive mood or body language...


If you're talking about my post that references cats running when their owner's are unhappy with them, Petspy, there's a difference between unhappy behavior and threatening behavior. There's not much reason to run from an unhappy human, but plenty of reason to run from a ticked-off one, especially if it that same body language has previously presaged any type of "discipline". Cats are discerning enough to tell the difference in moods and smart enough to remember the negative result of the threatening one.

I do believe cats can grow to trust their humans enough to let them do uncomfortable and even painful things to them, as well as love and appreciate them, so you and I meet about halfway. :wink:


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 29, 2008)

Auntie Crazy said:


> ... A grateful creature has to be able to recognize that circumstances could be different in order to be grateful for what exists. That's a more complex feeling than straight up love, and while I believe cats can both love and appreciate their humans, I'm not so sure they can understand the motives behind our behavior, even when it involves "helping" them by pilling, re-hydrating, force-feeding, etc. ....


I think so, too. The only way I might believe that a cat would appreciate your helping them would be if it has an instant effect, like some sort of anesthetic.


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

Honestly, I think we're getting WAY too carried away with analyzing cat's motives behind their behaviors that we interpret the way we want anyway. No doubt we're ALL wrong, because there's no way to know the feline mind, and even if we could stick some sort of a probe in there, I doubt we'd understand what it was telling us anyway. I think it's enough to enjoy them, love them, take good care of them, and interpret what they give us back in return as whatever we choose to appreciate about them.


----------



## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

How about this:

If we define love as chemicals that make us feel good then yes, I am sure cats experience the same thing.

I mean what is love other than the above?

:luv


----------



## Kobster (Feb 1, 2007)

I believe that cats love, and feel love for many of the reasons already mentioned. I'd like to respond to the comment that a cat will be happy with any loving caregiver. That is certainly not true. My childhood cat went into mourning when I went away to college, and her new caregiver wasn't even a new person to her. She stopped eating, stopped using the litterbox and refused to leave one room of the house. She stayed that way until she died many years later. She was never the same after I left. A part of who she was left with me. When I was living in Mexico my cats lived with my Mother. Kobie again, became extremely clingy and needy. He was constantly seeking reassurance. To this day, even though I've been home over a year, he still refuses to eat unless I'm in the room, and howls if he is shut out of my room at night. Prior to my absence this was a well adjusted confident cat, who was nearly aloof in his personality. Tell me this was anything less than a broken heart.


----------



## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

I've got the perfect response to this question: 

Watch Christian the lion's reunion with his owners a year after he was set free in Kenya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adYbFQFXG0U


----------



## bluemilk (Oct 3, 2005)

O.K....but I wouldn't take it as far as 'bear whispering'. Fuzzygood video, though!


----------



## Talessen (Jan 6, 2009)

Ask your professor this - why would a cat lead his old, blind, deaf doggie friend to food and water every day and night, making sure they avoid obstacles along the way? I have the article. Why would a crow bring food to a lost kitten?


----------



## petspy (Sep 11, 2008)

I posted earlier in this thread that I don't (yet) think my cats can love me, but
I find it remarkable how they have grown to trust me over the last few Months.

on Sunday I put my cats through ****;
I skipped their raw dinner (for an unrelated reason)
restrained them to trim their nails (front & back)
applied wax solvent insider their ears
harness them and gave them a shampoo, rinse and towel dry
reapplied a fresh but stinky Revolution ampule
put bell collars back around their necks
_and thru it all they are squirming and meowing._

so after all that, I figured, let me stay out of their way and give them a few 
hours to dry, lick themselves and decompress, _only I had forgotten to remove
the bath harness from one of the cats who was now hiding up in the cat tree._
I knew he'd want it off to dry and lick himself completely, but I figured after
all that manhandling he would not let me near him.

So - I calmly walked right up to him, and with one hand slowly unbuckled the harness, 
loosened and lifted it off his neck, then calmly backed away. The cat didn't even flinch.

I was so proud of him :luv - two Month ago he'd have stayed out of sight all day.

_I'm kinda impressed with myself as well.
I survived all that grooming work without
getting a single new scratch or bite_ :wink:


----------



## coaster (Dec 1, 2004)

I think most cat people would say that their cats are incredibly forgiving and tolerant, altogether unlike the typical stereotype that goes for "common wisdom." The thing is that cat's trust and affection has to be earned; it's not automatically given like it's in a dog's nature to do.


----------



## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

That's my point, Tim. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years longer than cats. They have been selectively bred for their loyalty, and other behaviors. Cats have been domesticated for only half as long as dogs have been., thus, my assertion that kitties do feel love, and love their humans by choice.
rcat


----------

