# cats establishing dominance... question.



## Ranogon (Dec 30, 2010)

How long does it take for two cats to establish who's dominate? While it's funny to see them play, there is also the part where they fight. I'm not sure which one is more dominate but I do believe my male is trying his hardest to be mr. king of the house. 

For example (and yes, these are my cats).. One day they were playing and I decided to start recording them.. Surprise, Surprise it turned into a fight that I had to break up.






Then we have the funny side, I'm not sure if this is establishing dominance but my female cat can kick butt if she wants (but my male cat pretty much let her because he's pure muscle)..


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## Sphynx4Me (Mar 5, 2011)

I'll let someone with more behavior in cat experience chime in, but I just don't see much playing here. I see puffed up tails twitching fast, a lot of staring down and posturing in BOTH films. 

My experience in cats is mostly in a large open room in a humane society that I worked at for years, and being a vet tech. But usually when that type of behavior occured we were asked to seperate the cats. That they simply didn't get a long. Whether or not that's true I'm not sure. 

I'm sorry I can't offer much advice on how long it will take, or if it will ever stop. How long have they been together?


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## Vala Faye (Mar 24, 2011)

Hey..did these cats just get put together?

Adult cats rarely play, especially if they're not that well acquainted with each other, unlike dogs for instance ( a dog can go to a playground and come home with a new friend within 5 min, this is never true for cats). And if cats play, it easily escalates into a fight. Usually, when mine play, they do some hopping around, play stalking and some racing after each other, but they never come into each others space bubbles, unless they're already bonded to the point where they wash each other and stuff, or they're wanting to fight.

The difference is in the fierceness. Claws out and swishing tails= aggression =/= play. Tail-up while approaching each other and little chatters = play. There's an lightheartedness about it, and usually the play doesn't last very long. If it does, then it can easily escalate into fighting.

As for dominance..cats don't establish dominance. They do a thing called 'timesharing'. See, unlike dog, cats don't usually live in packs together. They can, when a food source is big enough and it's worth the hassle to share territories, but they're never tight knit families. Some females may band together to do the convenient babysitting thing, while the other is hunting, but that's pretty much it. 

Cats do form individual bonds. 'I like you' and 'I don't like you'. Those they like are allowed in their territory, and personal space bubble for washing and sleeping in one basket. Those they don't like they have appointments with. 'Ok, so I don't like you, you don't like me, but we gotto live here so you get that spot in the morning and in the afternoon it's mine, deal?' => timesharing. 

This way they don't ever have to see each other and can both benefit. Now, cats are first and foremost territorial. Dogs are territorial as well, but share it with their families. Cats are solitary in their territorial nature. So when you put a new cat in someone elses territory it causes great stress.

'GTFO of my territory!' 'I would, but I can't, I dunno where I am!!!'

Or, if they're both new to the territory 'This is mine, get your own!' 'We'll see about that!' 

Bottom line, cats are kinda attached to the hip with their territory and don't take kindly to being either removed from their familiar territory, or sharing it with others where it was previously all theirs.

To get them to get along, you'll have to set up a proper introduction between the two, which will probably take longer now as they already have much antipathy towards each other, which needs to be addressed. Positive associations with each other need to be build up so they can learn how to timeshare properly and potentially even become contented soulmates for life


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

Oh dear, that wasnt playing at all. The orange guy is all swishy and sidling, and I can't see the black baby but I bet it wasn't too pleased! 

I would seperate both cats and try and re-intro slowly using the threads here for advice. I think we have a sticky somewheres?


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## Ranogon (Dec 30, 2010)

Okay, I really wasn't expecting the replies to tell me they both hate each other but I'm going to reply to the questions first



> How long have they been together?


She was adopted on 18 days ago (march 10th) and they have been together nearly 16 days.



> Hey..did these cats just get put together?


This is the question I want to really answer because they basically were put together quickly, there are reasons behind this including the newest cat had a deafening howl when enclosed in the safe room. Problem is, this howl happened at night and I have thin walls and my neighbors bedroom is right behind the wall in the safe room.

When I first got Duke, he was REALLY good about the safe room, I never had a problem with him... but this new female...she was very insistent on getting out and exploring even with him near (she was very use to other cats). The next day I set up a gate, it was the weekend so they had all day and all night to sniff / get use to each other but she still had that same howl.

I let her out of the safe room and she ventured into my room, jumped on my bed and went to sleep.. Yes, Duke had a problem with that, but he never fought with her.

Fast forward to my movies - these only show what I've recorded. The two cats can and do eat / drink next to each other and they even both (recently) been sleeping near each other on my bed. Duke does chase her and she DOES play with him (she's only 1 year 7 months old...), I'm not an expert in cat body language but he does play back with her at time. The second movie shows her being a bully, I've never seen that before and by her tail wagging, I thought they both were in the playing mood till she launched and he went against the litter box.

I just don't understand why a full re-introduction must be done, They're starting to accept each other and in my opinion.. if they hated each other they certainly wouldn't eat / drink / sleep near each other. As in my profile picture, They can sit at that patio door right next to each other and look outside and enjoy the view, not always, but it's been really improving lately.


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

We can only go by the videos and give our opinions.  You never mentioned before that they eat/sleep together and groom one another fine. 

The vids just show two cats who are NOT playing, infact, they are posturing and then fighting. You had called it playing, and people were letting you know that they aren't playing at all. 

MY opinion was for a re-intro, because it is getting to the point that they will actually fight. IMO, that has gone too far. We've had many members with cats who got to that stage and they have done re-intros over a longer period of time and it's fixed/greatly helped the situation. 

Tail wagging in cats is NOT the same as dogs. It doesn't mean HAPPY. It means angry. So does walking sideways like your orangeboy in the first video. Staring into each others eyes is not endearing, it's a "wanna fight aboudit?!" thing. Hah.

Again, I will say, IMO these kitties would benefit from a SLOWER reintro process. I would also suggest using Feliway plug ins, since they have already starting to fight off and on. 

Sure, you could wait it out. Maybe they'd get over the fighting and be best buds. It's your call, they're your cats. I just hope things don't get worse and someone gets hurt.  Even by accident.


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## Greenport ferals (Oct 30, 2010)

Vala Faye said:


> ....Adult cats rarely play, especially if they're not that well acquainted with each other, unlike dogs for instance ( a dog can go to a playground and come home with a new friend within 5 min, this is never true for cats). And if cats play, it easily escalates into a fight. Usually, when mine play, they do some hopping around, play stalking and some racing after each other, but they never come into each others space bubbles, unless they're already bonded to the point where they wash each other and stuff, or they're wanting to fight.
> 
> The difference is in the fierceness. Claws out and swishing tails= aggression =/= play. Tail-up while approaching each other and little chatters = play. There's an lightheartedness about it, and usually the play doesn't last very long. If it does, then it can easily escalate into fighting.
> 
> ...


This was a very well thought out post. I definitely observe this behavior when I introduced new ferals to my barn colony. My established cats don't like it, but because there is plenty of food they adapt to the new-comers. 

It reminds me of the way people where I work generally react to the newly-hired.


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

Sinatra swishes his tail right before he lays on his back and invites Nutmeg to tackle his belly. That IS play.



If you don't like them playing/fighting (I think they are playing if there is no fur or blood flying) then spray them with a water bottle or shake a can of coins when they do it.


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## suwanee (Jan 22, 2011)

Ranogon,

I have had several cats over the past 15 years. Never more than three at a time - but in a small 600' one bed condo. They were all shelter cats adopted as adults ages 3+ years old. No known backgrounds.

I currently have a female tortie about 8-10 years old, and a male large 8-10 years old. They came to me about a year apart.

I never did planned introductions because I figured they would work out their problems. They came home, and had free run.

The female was here first.

They tolerate each other. Will sit near each other - like within inches. Sometimes one starts something, and sometimes the other does. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes someone gets hissy and runs. They exhibit all the same body language as your cats. But it's never gotten to, "I'm pinning you down," yowling like your first video. Lots of claw swiping and batting at each others' faces happens.

My point is sometimes the female is the aggressor, sometimes the male. They sit very close together but I've never witnessed grooming activity. They will chase and run but if anyone gets hissy, someone will bolt before it gets this aggressive. So although I never did the extended introduction, they did work through most of the aggression. I think you should take your individual cats' personalities into consideration, and how much aggression you think you want to take. I just figured they would work things out like all my cats did. If no one draws blood, I don't interfere. But since I never witnessed pinning and yowling, your mileage may vary.


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## Ranogon (Dec 30, 2010)

> You never mentioned before that they eat/sleep together and groom one another


Although these are getting better (except grooming, which they've never done but I'm hoping they reach this stage), reading the replies and gaining knowledge about signs cats are giving is helping me a lot and I've been doing some more research. When I mention they sleep on my bed, they can be close but there is never no contact between the two.. It's really hard to explain, they have good days and bad days. I have seen and witnessed them eating and drinking very close together and other days they're in separate rooms with their own food (I have two dishes for each cat for food / water).



> The vids just show two cats who are NOT playing, infact, they are posturing and then fighting.


I agree that it became a match between both of them but I think that happened after she knocked him into the box and he tried to get away to prevent a fight but she wouldn't let him. As far as the tail wagging goes before that happened, I'm reading several different sites and they all contradict each other.. One says it's a fighting pose "come on and fight" and the other says it's an invite to play.



> Again, I will say, IMO these kitties would benefit from a SLOWER reintro process. I would also suggest using Feliway plug ins, since they have already starting to fight off and on. :smile:


100% agree that they would benefit from a slower introduction, but the problem is not with how-to, it's a problem with a very verbal cat when she's alone.



> They exhibit all the same body language as your cats. But it's never gotten to, "I'm pinning you down," yowling like your first video. Lots of claw swiping and batting at each others' faces happens.


This does scare me and I certainly hope it doesn't progress to the next level.

Duke does play rough though, he did even before I got Marley. He's pure muscle and can easily win the battle.. So it's up in the air but he did get use to her presence quite quick after I brought her home.

With the information I've learned from this thread and the signs to look for from this website and others, I'll be more focused on what they're telling each other and if it continues on, I'll be forced to do the separation / reintro again. Thanks everyone .


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## Vala Faye (Mar 24, 2011)

Greenport ferals said:


> This was a very well thought out post. I definitely observe this behavior when I introduced new ferals to my barn colony. My established cats don't like it, but because there is plenty of food they adapt to the new-comers.
> 
> It reminds me of the way people where I work generally react to the newly-hired.



Thanks, and yeah, our corporate structure is very much like a cat colony 



Ranogon said:


> Although these are getting better (except grooming, which they've never done but I'm hoping they reach this stage), reading the replies and gaining knowledge about signs cats are giving is helping me a lot and I've been doing some more research. When I mention they sleep on my bed, they can be close but there is never no contact between the two.. It's really hard to explain, they have good days and bad days. I have seen and witnessed them eating and drinking very close together and other days they're in separate rooms with their own food (I have two dishes for each cat for food / water).
> 
> I agree that it became a match between both of them but I think that happened after she knocked him into the box and he tried to get away to prevent a fight but she wouldn't let him. As far as the tail wagging goes before that happened, I'm reading several different sites and they all contradict each other.. One says it's a fighting pose "come on and fight" and the other says it's an invite to play.
> 
> ...


Hey, I know what you mean. I had two cats at home where one tortured the other out of the litter tray. They did the whole sharing territory thing just fine, but when the black one heard the grey one in the litter tray she turned into a little devil. The black one also followed the grey one around. Lying where she laid, eating when she did...i think it was a) out of boredom and b) coz she wanted to take over. They even got competitive over my body. The grey one likes my lap, so the black one woud lie on my chest, asses touching but never looking at one another. 

They...did not like each other and the grey one peed on my bed out of stress. 

Here's what you can do imo:

1) more play. Find out their favorite toys and let them get their energy out that way instead of torturing each other. Just make sure that when you use fishing rod toys, you have two so they don't fight over the same toy.
Every day 15 minutes should suffice

2) bribing. Get some canned salmon or something, and feed them that when they're near each other. Good things happen when you're together! Feed them in food bowls which you slowly push closer and closer together

3) When they do have a hissy fit, have some toys on you. Balls for instance. The idea is to distract them. I liked the water gun and can of coins idea, but this is a way to interrupt them with a positive thing. Toss toys at them the second they get going (this works especially with playful cats and younger cats). This way you keep the situation from escalating and making them dislike each other more and more and give the situation a positive spin.

I don't think, after the additional info you provided, that you need to reintroduce them again..not yet, but if you keep letting it escalate you might get there. It might also be wise to play with them right before you go to bed, so they leave each other alone during the night, or, to keep them seperate for that time. I used to take the grey one with me to the bedroom, closed the door and did her play time there as I have 6 others that wanted to play as well and she never let go. Then she'd have a peaceful night in my room where she didn't have to worry about being attacked. It did a lot for her 

Good luck!


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## cushman350 (Mar 16, 2011)

They seem to be testing the limits. I feel they will decide on their own. I've had 2 out of 15 that just didn't like each other and if the submissive one is blocked, it becomes physical, otherwise avoidance is usually what happens. The submissive will stay out of dominate's zone.


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## Goldtanker (Jan 9, 2011)

Talk about dominance. This morning (0530) I'm looking out the upstairs window with a powerful flashlight to see if the foxes need more food at the end of the driveway. I see one of the foxes by his reflecting eyes. At the same time I see another animal with much brighter eyes coming down the road and turning into the driveway. It's Midnight, the wild cat, coming home for his breakfast of sliced deli beef. The fox leaves him alone. Who's the boss?


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## Ranogon (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks everyone who responded! I've been paying attention to the signs they're giving each other and lately they've been playing (yes, playing.. not fighting 100% sure this time! haha).. Laying right next to each other, eating out of the same dish together, and Duke finally started licking Marley's head. She is a wild one, she's constantly running around and she seems to be in a better mood and a little less shy.

Yes, I still have the battles between them but it's really calming down.. I distract them as soon as I see signs of aggressiveness and then have them playing with a toy side by side in a matter of a minute.. So I'm hoping that's providing enough positive energy where they'll become 100% comfortable with each other.


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## Vala Faye (Mar 24, 2011)

That's great! Keep them distracted and they should find their routine pretty fast


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