# Substitute For Pet-Tinic ?



## CatDad (Sep 7, 2005)

My little Maggie May has recently been diagnosed with diabetes. As well as having CRF and elevated ALT levels. The Vet gave us Pet-Tinic to address anemia and depletion of B vitamins. 

However reading the ingredients I discovered Pet Tinic lists Corn Syrup, Water then Sugar as the first three ingredients. For a diabetic cat ?

Is there a better B-complex with Iron & Copper without all the sugars ??? 

Thank You, CatDad


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't understand why the vet wouldn't just give an iron tablet (for the anemia) + a B vitamin?

As a diabetic myself, I totally agree that giving corn sugar + sugar simply does NOT make sense! That could cause a MAJOR spike in your cat's blood glucose, possibly to lethal levels. Plus, properly untreated diabetes can lead to chronic kidney disease. (Which I also have btw)

I'd definitely talk this over with the vet + possibly even find a different vet who knows more about treating diabetes + chronic renal failure. Perhaps a *Cat Only* vet? 

PERSONALLY, I would NOT give the Pet-Tinic until I had alot more information.


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

Bon said:


> Plus, properly untreated diabetes can lead to chronic kidney disease.


This should read *improperly/untreated* diabetes.
(my bad)


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## TabbCatt (Mar 26, 2014)

Have you read from this link before? It's pretty informative: Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - All About Anaemia

It seems the Pet-tinic is given because it's palatable to pets (and can be mixed in wet foods easily). But yes, the sugar content in it is a good question to bring up. Pilling a cat? Not sure if you'd enjoy doing that over a lengthy period of time, as a cat with anemia would require for it to resolve? I guess you could ask about other iron rich sources of food, but not sure your kitty will readily eat those either...maybe ESA or the vitamin B shots? Not sure, I'm far from being an expert on this. 

I'd personally discuss this with your current vet and ask whether the Pet-tinic is still safe for your diabetic cat, and mention you're not comfortable giving additional sugars if there are other alternatives. I wouldn't be putting off giving your cat these supplements for too long; it can exacerbate current problems, so I'm hoping you'll get some quick answers/resolutions from your vet.

Good luck, well wishes for your kitty!


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

If you're administering subQ fluids, you could administer Vit B complex or B12 as an injectible right into the injection port on the IV line as you're giving fluids. That's actually a better way to admin Vit B, anyway, as B12 is poorly absorbed when given orally. You'd have to get a prescription for the injectible Vit B from your vet, though, or buy it from your vet directly.

Organ meats, esp. liver, spleen, and lung, are high in iron. You could feed a small (nickle-sized) piece of raw or cooked liver daily to bump up your cat's iron intake without added sugar.

BTW, I assume you have eliminated ALL kibble and other carb sources from your cat's diet. Here's a link that will explain the critical importance of doing this for a diabetic cat: YourDiabeticCat.com - Helping and Preventing Feline Diabetes
It's a must read!

Laurie


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

I always crushed the pills, dissolve them in 1-2cc's of water + squirt it in the side of their mouth, Followed by a little squirt of plain water + a treat. Always worked great for me! 

But I still SERIOUSLY question the use of Pet Tinic with all the sugar + corn syrup for a diabetic cat who already has renal problems. 

IMHO


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## CatDad (Sep 7, 2005)

Yes I agree I am very against giving the Pet Tinic. I feel the vet is wrong on this. And I believe I found at least for now a good substitute. It has the same ingredients more or less with no sugars of any kind. So the Pet Tinic is gone... GNC Ultra Mega Multivitamin Plus Senior Soft Chews for Cats. And she actually likes them. 

Yes I have read through Tanya's CRF site. Very informative ! Don't recall but none of the vitamins there seemed appropriate for our situation. I've read so much in the last few days ! One site leads you to another. 

No I do not admin fluids at this time, but yes B complex injectables are a very good idea. Actually I never gave her kibbles except a few at night for a treat. Very few. She has always been on wet food. I recently switched her to a near zero carb diet - at least according to the DMA. Tiki Cat and Weruva. And picked up a food processor to make it easier for her to eat it. 

She has been very lethargic as of late and not all that interested in her food. Im hoping to control her diabetes soon. The vet is incrementing up one unit every few days according to the blood tests Im doing at home. Blood glucose monitor. Im not clear on this, did the diabetes lead to the CRF ? Are they connected ? What is the best approach to deal with them ? They seem to have come on at the same time. The liver issue though has been there a while now. 

Thanks for all the help and support all ! 

CatDad


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

From my understanding (in MY case . . . ) Yes diabetes can + most likely did, cause the kidney problems. It's important to get the diabetes under control so as not to harm the kidneys even more. Extra fluids might be a good idea - to keep the kidneys flushed out.

I'm just too tired to remember the explanation all of my docs have given me right now - sorry 

ps. glad the pet tinic is gone!


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## CatDad (Sep 7, 2005)

Thank you for that explanation Bon. 

Yes I was not giving all that sugar to my little girl. 
She is still high at 388 as of todays BG Test. I called the vet and he raised her one more unit to 4. We'll see where that takes us....


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## TabbCatt (Mar 26, 2014)

CatDad said:


> Im not clear on this, did the diabetes lead to the CRF ? Are they connected ? What is the best approach to deal with them ? They seem to have come on at the same time. The liver issue though has been there a while now.


Diabetes can cause all sorts of systemic damage over time. Complications include nephropathy (impaired kidneys), neuropathy (injury to nerves), and retinopathy (harm to retina of the eyes). A lot of the things aren't noticeable early on, so it's often missed until symptoms appear. Over time, damage occurs from continued elevated sugars in the blood stream because the pancreas cannot make enough insulin needed to transport glucose into the cells as needed. When cells are "starved" for glucose, the affected patient typically becomes hungry all the time. Additionally, excess glucose molecules are released into the kidneys where they can clump, clog, and damage the delicate capillaries in the kidneys, thus cause kidney problems. Glycosuria also compels more water to be excreted from the body, so the affected patient has symptoms of excessive thirst while producing large amounts of urine. Usually, though you may see the cat intaking a lot of fluids, the cat still remains thirsty and often becomes dehydrated. Water and electrolyte imbalance from increased blood sugars may lead to nausea and lack of appetite. Low blood sugars (due to _too much insulin_ or lack of glucose) can cause the patient to become weak, lethargic, irritable, confused and hungry. 

The best thing you can do for your kitty is exactly what you're doing now: getting the diabetes under control with the _proper dose_ of insulin and following it up with a healthier diet (minimal carbs). Also, it's very critical to monitor for any signs of Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA) and recognize the importance of taking regular BG levels, even if your cat isn't consuming any food. DKA is a life-threatening situation and requires an e-vet.

Links on feline diabetes if you haven't checked it out: 
The Signs, Diagnosis & Types of Diabetes Mellitus in Cats
Diabetes In Cats. Conditions associated with feline diabetes, including hypoglycaemia, cystitis, kidney failure or CRF, Chronic Renal Failure, low blood sugar, hypo episode, hypo attack.


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

I'm not sure what the normal range for cats is but if it's around 100 like it is for humans, going up 1 unit every few days isn't gonna get it (been there, done that) - is there a vet in your area who specifically treats cats with diabetes? 

Admittedly, this is a sensitive subject for me as I am struggling to get MY diabetes under control and it has seriously affected my kidneys . . . so if I seem to be over-reacting, I apologize! It's just that I can relate to what you + your little girl are going thru!

*paws crossed*


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

TabbCatt - THANK YOU! That's what my addled brain wanted to say + couldn't


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## TabbCatt (Mar 26, 2014)

Bon said:


> TabbCatt - THANK YOU! That's what my addled brain wanted to say + couldn't


I'm so sorry to hear your struggles with diabetes, Bon. I believe diabetes is tougher on humans because we really _crave_ carbs and even I admit I cannot live without eating breads, pastas, rice, and some sweets myself. I feel like it can be better controlled in cats because they're natural carnivores and can do so much better without carbs in their diet. Sugars/carbs are needed for humans (in proper controlled amounts), but I can't say for sure diabetic cats need to eliminate it completely (if they are hypoglycemic, for example, they'd require some dosage, I'd imagine).

I just put the information out there for folks who wanted to understand the disease process better. It's quite similar, though.

Well vibes to the OP's cat and you, Bon.


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## KsKatt (Jul 6, 2014)

Is that a total of 4 units per day? My Moon was on 2 units, 2x per day= 4 units. This is still pretty new to me and I take Moon in periodically for the blood glucose tests. The last visit his numbers were up so the vet upped him to 3 units, 2x per day= 6 units.

I can't imagine dealing with that many issues! Your cat is lucky to have you!


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

TabbCatt - thank you again!


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## CatDad (Sep 7, 2005)

Thank you TabbCatt for your very informative explanation ! I printed it out to use as a reference. I wish my vet was that concise... 

Sorry to hear about you situation Bon. I can see why this is such a hard subject for you. I read the normal range for cats is 75-120mg. So far with every increment of one unit she drops about 100mg. She is at 388 and I will be retesting Monday. so hopefully it will resolve within the week. I also found a zero carb diet - at least according to their DMA report. Hopefully that will help. 

KsKatt, Maggie May gets 4 units twice a day for a total of 8. And I have no doubt it will be much higher by the end of the week. Thankfully I picked up a blood glucose monitor to test at home. She really doesn't handle being taken to the vet all that well. And in her condition I just can't do that to her. So this way I just check her levels, and phone them in. How long has Moon been diabetic ?


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## Bon (Mar 13, 2014)

*hugs* for Maggie May + Moon! AND their parents who take such good care of them!


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

CatDad said:


> Maggie May gets 4 units twice a day for a total of 8. And I have no doubt it will be much higher by the end of the week. Thankfully I picked up a blood glucose monitor to test at home. She really doesn't handle being taken to the vet all that well. And in her condition I just can't do that to her. So this way I just check her levels, and phone them in. How long has Moon been diabetic ?


It's very good that you are testing her BG at home, because it's extremely risky and difficult to try to accurately adjust insulin dosages based on in-clinic BG testing. If you purchased a good quality, accurate meter (the cheaper ones can be frighteningly inaccurate), and if you're testing her at least twice daily, your vet should be able to adjust her insulin dose both safely and effectively. A no-carb diet will also help substantially to stabilize her BG.

I assume you understand that your girl's BG almost certainly takes huge swings during the day, depending on when you test her BG relative to her meals and her insulin dose. In order for you to understand how her BG relates to her meals and her insulin doses, you might want to test her every hour or two over the course of a day to see when her BG is at its highs and lows. If it is staying consistently in the high 300's all day with no response to insulin (which is possible but not likely), you should ask your vet about switching to a different insulin.

With her multiple health issues, her lack of appetite could have a number of different causes or combination of causes. Diabetes, anemia, and kidney disease can all seriously diminish appetite. Anemia will also make a cat feel weak and lethargic. 

There's such a steep learning curve for you right now. I know it can be overwhelming. You're going to find yourself having to do a lot of juggling over time to manage multiple health concerns, but you're clearly dedicated to doing everything possible for your cat. Kudos to you for that!

Laurie


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## CatDad (Sep 7, 2005)

laurief said:


> It's very good that you are testing her BG at home, because it's extremely risky and difficult to try to accurately adjust insulin dosages based on in-clinic BG testing. If you purchased a good quality, accurate meter (the cheaper ones can be frighteningly inaccurate), and if you're testing her at least twice daily, your vet should be able to adjust her insulin dose both safely and effectively. A no-carb diet will also help substantially to stabilize her BG.
> 
> I assume you understand that your girl's BG almost certainly takes huge swings during the day, depending on when you test her BG relative to her meals and her insulin dose. In order for you to understand how her BG relates to her meals and her insulin doses, you might want to test her every hour or two over the course of a day to see when her BG is at its highs and lows. If it is staying consistently in the high 300's all day with no response to insulin (which is possible but not likely), you should ask your vet about switching to a different insulin.
> 
> ...



After a long discussion with her dr he asked that I do a BG scan every two hours. I imagine my little girl wont be all too happy about that, but it must be done. Id like to resolve this issue as quickly as possible for her sake. 

I'm using an AlphaTrak2... I hope that is a good one, I read the reviews and it seemed to be. Also, I picked up a food processor which has made a big difference in getting her to eat more. Hopefully that may help others whose little ones are having appetite issues as well... 

CatDad


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