# Chocolate Tabby



## valerin (Jun 13, 2015)

I am lucky enough to have a male chocolate tabby. (This is a rare double recessive in 2 traits for coat color)
I am interested in finding a female to breed him with (preferrably in the DFW area in Texas).

Does anyone have any information regarding chocolate tabbies? He is pure brown with very faint almost invisible tabby rings. My vet advised I not neuter him because of the rarity of the color. I understand it is common among Burmese, but he is definitely not Burmese.

He came as a surprise litter from a stray we took into the house. She is a lilac tabby (brown, but diluted.. She must have been b/b and D/d; cursing myself for having her spayed now!)

Have had a great deal of difficulty finding any other cats like him. I wonder how much kittens should sell for also, if I did manage to obtain a female to breed with him.

Thanks!


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm very curious of what country you live in. I can't imagine any responsible veterinarian in the US suggesting you leave an unregistered cat to procreate at random.....

There are enough kittens in the world euthanized every single day because homes cannot be found for them all. Your cat is an interesting color and that's great, but it's no reason to act irresponsibly and breed MORE kittens to dump into the system. You say he's definitely NOT Burmese which makes me think he's not any particular breed. Unless he's papered from a reputable breeder and you plan on finding a papered queen of the SAME breed with the intention if improving the breed, then forego your money making venture.

For every one that IS born that interesting color how many will be born that are not, are those just going to be tossd away? Give away and left to procreate MORE kittens that will be put to sleep? Also, you have NO idea what genetic defects might accompany that recessive trait or be contained in your cat. 

Your cat isn't a walking money machine for you to raise cash. Act responsibly and neuter him.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Unless you have papers, you couldn't ethically sell the kittens.

It's a GOOD thing that you spayed the mother.


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## Greenport ferals (Oct 30, 2010)

MowMow said:


> Your cat isn't a walking money machine for you to raise cash. Act responsibly and neuter him.


I second that. Forget the kittens. Really.


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## Mandy and Ellie (Oct 22, 2013)

I would have to agree with the other posts. Even purebred, highly sought after cats end up dumped in shelters, rescues, etc and unwanted. Although your cat's coloring may be rare, there's no guarantee the kittens will be - and even if they are, no guarantee the person looking to get a cat will even care. The kittens will not be registered, no health history/guarantee on the family line's genetics, have no indication of any special coloring or breed... and you're curious about the amount you can sell them for? Most shelters, rescues, people, etc have difficulty finding homes PERIOD for kittens. If all you care about is money and continuing this rare coloring (with NO guarantee it will be passed down to kittens), PLEASE get your cat neutered.

I would just appreciate your cat for his unique color instead of feeling the need to breed him and make money.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

It is extremely difficult to develop a new breed of cat, and is a big rigamarole to go through. It must be bred through several generations to develop a unique and healthy cat that will be an asset to the cat fancy.
New Breeds and Colors

There are already chocolate cats, e.g. Burmese, and the Havana Brown. 

What you may in fact have is a Havana Brown mix, kittens and young Havanas have ghost tabby markings that fade out in a mature cat. 
Breed Profile: The Havana Brown

Suggest you just enjoy your cat. You could enter it in a HHP=Household Pet Class at a cat shows to let the judges and the public see it.


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## valerin (Jun 13, 2015)

I'm sorry. Did I post under the wrong forum? This is the breeding forum, right? People do breed cats. I was advised by a veterinarian. Yes in the states. He is an indoor cat, and has no opportunity to procreate. He only would under my control.
I came to this forum for advice on breeding him to cultivate this color/breed combination, and yes to get information on selling the kittens. Your judgements are not appropriate nor helpful.
If there is a market and I have genetic testing done, I do not understand any ethical issues with breeding and selling kittens to happy homes. I'm not suggesting an animal mill here. If there is some law I would be breaking in the united States, that would definitely be useful information.
Initially, I was thinking to find females to stud him out to. With appropriate paperwork. I am also interested to know what appropriate paperwork needs to be done and made available. Breed tests? Coat color test obviously.. Maybe gene testing on the mother as well?
Again, please only respond if you have some information about chocolate tabbies or information regarding genetic testing, breeding papers, and etc. I will not be neutering him at the moment. Recall I had him at the vet to have exactly that done when she stopped me and advised me to investigate this. Which is what I am doing.
What I have found is his coat color is recessive. Meaning if I found another like him, the color would breed true, 100%.
Possibly some cinnamon, dependng, but from what I understand gene testing would answer this one way or the other. Does anyone have more knowledge about this?


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## valerin (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank you catloverami for addressing my questions and providing information. He does look like the Havana Browns. It would be helpful to know if he is a Havana mix. Can gene testing tell me?


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

No, genetic testing doesn't work with cats like it does with dogs. You have a brown cat. That's not a breed and no responsible owner of a purebred cat (or any other) will breed with your cat because there's no point. You don't have papers on him so you can't sell "pretty brown kitties" and try to pass them off as anything other than kittens of a kitten of a *stray cat*.

Yes, this is the breeding thread, but if you read through it, it's mostly to help people who have taken in pregnant strays and need help with the mom and kittens. Or actual, registered breeders. Of purebred cats.

And the vet that stopped you from fixing him is an irresponsible [fill in the blank].

And yes you are suggesting an animal mill, or at least becoming a BYB, which again, nobody here will help you with.

Get your cat fixed, enjoy him for what he is, and, as was suggested, show him as a housecat if you want to show him off.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Even if the _genetic test could tell you the possible breed cross, he's a cross. Not a purebred, therefore not breeding material._

_No_, you would not be a kitten mill. You would be a backyard breeder using his cat to earn a buck. 

Yes, this forum is for breeders. Ethical and moral breeders who research, study genetics, and slave to improve the breed of cats they love so much for the purpose of keeping their bloodlines strong and intact.. We don't have any hunting for an unregistered male cat to breed 'Neato colored' kittens whose sole purpose is to make a selfish human some money.

This type of backyard breeding is what every ethical breeder of cats (and dogs) stands against.

As for your 'vet', she needs to be reported to the stats's veterinary board for her ethics.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Rereading your last post, I can't decide if you are a greedy cat owner just wanting to pump out mixed breed kittens for cash or if you are saying you WANT to get him registered and honestly try to get into cat breeding.

If it's the later then I apologize for my very harsh response, you simply don't understand how the registration process works for any purebred animal. A genetic test may be able to give you some idea of what his cross is (I thought I saw some people on here get the test for S*Gs) but even if he turns out to be 99.99999% Havana Brown (or whatever breed) that breed club will still never provide you with papers for him. That's not their purpose.

Their purpose is to protect the integrity of their breed. To insure purity and prevent dilution. They would never provide registration papers for a cat without proof of pedigree. It doesn't work the way you are proposing, no 'breeder' papers for cats who are kind of purebred.


You would be a backyard breeder hocking unregistered kittens to earn some extra money. Really, does that sound unethical to you? Sure, you might be sure to find good homes but who is to say the people you sell them to are going to do the same thing? Not just randomly breed them and the kittens wind up in shelters being euthanized when they can't find homes?

Imo, to do this ethically you would need to find a reliable genetic test that tells you a mixture of his breeds (still not sure this even exists). Then you would have to find a female of the same coloring and test her. Next you'd have to research what genetic issues all those breeds suffer from and then test your mating pair to make sure they aren't gong to pass these genetic traits on to your kittens. Seems pretty unethical to sell kittens with genetic diseased that may kill them....

Say we've passed all the above obstacles and you've bred your first litter. Wahooo, cute kittens of an interesting color. To properly raise them and give them time to mature they should stay with mom and their littermates for 12 weeks. That's 12 weeks of feeding, litter training, lots of litter boxes, and numerous kittens running around your house trashing the joint.

Remember the point is to do this ETHICALLY and MORALLY so before they are sold and go to their new homes they need to have their shots and be spayed /neutered. How are you going to feel about those vet bills cutting into your profits? What happens if the queen has trouble during delivery? Are you prepared to cover the costs of vet bills which may well negate any profits the sold kittens will provide?

I also forgot the most wonderful aspect of a breeding male... you do know that male cats spray as they get older, right? It's going to be a real joy living with him after that starts.

ETA: My opinion of your vet still stands. You might not know better, but she absolutely should and to encourage someone to breed their unregistered cat is absolutely reprehensible.


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## Mochas Mommy (Dec 9, 2013)

You have a beautiful cat...enjoy him and share him with others as a household pet at cat shows.

As others have told you, as a breeder, he will only sire mixed breed cats. Even IF there were a test that could say he was 100% purebred, you would not be able to register him. You would need a blue slip from his mother's breeder with her registered, purebred number AND the sire's purebred number (and the sire's breeder's permission that he was the indisputable sire of the litter) in order for the cat organization to accept him and provide you with papers. That, unfortunately, is not likely to happen for you. Finally, both owners of the parents of your cat have to agree that he could be used as a stud cat....you cannot just get a male purebred and breed it. If such permission is not granted through TICA or CFA, no offspring of that cat would be registered ever. (I know the process as I have 4 purebred cats who are breeder/show cats). 

Having an intact male cat in your house is NOT a pleasant thing.,,,,their sole purpose in life is to mate. They are not pleasant, loving cats when they want to be mating...they seem to make it their life's work to be as stinky as possible so they attract females (go figure that one) and they will literally spray urine straight up your walls....and there is no smell worse than an intact male cat's urine on your walls and carpet! He will also holler non stop trying to attract every female cat in a 10 mile radius. You will also have to consider who to breed him to. He isn't going to be happy with once or twice a year.....are you going to have enough females to keep him....ummm...satisfied so you get some relief from his hormones? Purebred breeders with chocolate cats are not going to be wanting to use an unregistered male....and people will not pay purebred prices for a non-purebred cat. We put a lot of money into our purebreds for their health testing and care.,,,.hence the price. People expect to see all the paperwork on the parents when they purchase a purebred kitten.

Ultimately it is your choice what to do with him...but he will be a lot more loving, clean smelling, and happier as a neutered male.


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## Nuliajuk (Oct 25, 2014)

This colouring might not be as rare as you think. Many Siamese get faint tabby stripes as they age and start darkening. He probably just has some Siamese in him.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

The OP hasn't posted even though they've been back, I think we have ourselves a little troll here


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## Mandy and Ellie (Oct 22, 2013)

marie73 said:


> The OP hasn't posted even though they've been back, I think we have ourselves a little troll here


I think they were more so offended that we didn't promote breeding a random cat because they have a cute coat color.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Sorry can't respond, busy trying to schedule Cali a spay reversal.....


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## 10cats2dogs (Jun 16, 2013)

marie73 said:


> sorry can't respond, busy trying to schedule cali a spay reversal.....


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## Mandy and Ellie (Oct 22, 2013)

marie73 said:


> Sorry can't respond, busy trying to schedule Cali a spay reversal.....


LOL!!! Must continue the pretty coat! :lol:


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Call me, i'll talk to the vet and we'll set her up with Mow!!


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