# Need help with feral kitties



## bobbimcd

I have been feeding feral Mommy Kitty, (who had a litter about three to four weeks ago) twice to three times a day for quite awhile. Over time, she has come to trust me, allowing me to pet and groom her. She comes inside to eat and then wants to goes back outside. This morning, to my great surprise, she has moved her 3 adorable babies into the large heated (65-70 degrees inside) doghouse we have placed on our deck for the ferals that I feed daily. I first noticed that there were two babies and while ago, I witnessed her carrying baby 3 onto the deck and depositing him into the house. 

When she had left the deck earlier, I put a bowl of Science Diet kitten food and a bowl of canned food inside the house. The back of the house has a small window so I can look thru my window and see what's going on inside the cat house. My question is: Should I put a small litter box inside the house so the kitties can use it? When Mommy Kitty returned with the third kitty, I saw her eating the canned food and some of the dry foodl. One of the kitties joined in, eating the dry food, as well. I am concerned about them messing up the inside of the house and not being able to keep it clean for them. Right now, I have a cozy heated round bed and a lambswool mat covering the rest of the floor. There is room to put a small litter pan, but would this being so close to their bed and food be a problem?

I am so excited  that she has moved them into a warm and safe place since our temps have been down to the upper teens at night. I don't want to do anything that will stress her and make her move them. As soon as them are thru nursing, I would hope to get them and Mommy Kitty spayed/neutered and find homes for the babies. Since Mommy Kitty is a petite kitty, I can only guess that her babies are around 4 weeks old. Is that about when they should be introduced to dry and canned food to suppliment mother's milk?

One other question - I feed several other ferals on the deck twice a day. Will the other cats make Mommy Kitty stressed and make her move them? She and the other cats are always camped out on the deck before daybreak for me to bring out food, so she is familiar with the others.  Will this relieve her fear of them bothering her babies?

Any advice you could offer on how to handle this situation, would be greatly appreciated.

Bobbi


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## Nell

Is there any way that you can move mom cat and kittens completely inside for a few weeks?

Its important that you start socializing the kittens as soon as possible. At the age they are now, they will adapt to people quite easily, but the older they get, the harder it will be.
But its also benificial that the kittens are able to stay with their mother as long as possible. After weaning, mom cat still has a lot to teach the kittens. Normally, its advisable that the kittens stay with mom until they are 10-12 weeks old, but with ferals that need to be socialized, its not really possible unless you have mom too. After 10-12 weeks, it becomes rather difficult to successfully tame wild kittens.
From how you describe the mother, it sounds as if she may be a stray that has been living on her own for a while, rather than a true feral. If she is letting you pet and groom her, there's a good chance that she could be re-socialized and adopted out too, which is really good news for her.

If you can't bring both mom and kittens inside, then I would suggest taking the kittens when they are 6 weeks old. At that age, they are old enough that they are weaned and don't need to depend on mom, yet young enough that it will be easy to socialize them so that they're friendly and find good homes.

I don't think the other cats on the deck will be a problem for her and the kittens. As you said, she is familiar with them being there. If she felt that they were a threat, she wouldn't have moved the kittens to the area.

Good luck with the kitties and keep us updated


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## Jeanie

I agree with Nell about keeping the little family indoors.  I think it might be wise to put food for the other ferals at the approach to the porch. It sounds as if Mother cat is a stray, but if there are feral Toms, they might kill the kittens. This is not uncommon among feral cats, although somewhat rare among housepets.

Have you contacted an organization who supports T/N/R? (trap,neuter, release) I'm sure you don't want the colony to continue to grow. Perhaps one of the stickies at the top of this forum will direct you to the right organization. Good luck!


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## bobbimcd

First, thanks for responding, Nell. I don't know if she would adapt to being inside, as much as I would love to have her inside with her babies where they would be toasty warm, out of the cold weather. She tolerates being inside for a short time, but she stays in the kitchen, in sight of the sliding door, and gets stressed if she can't get outside. She ventured off into another room a few months ago and got completely freaked out when she couldn't find her way back to the kitchen. She got up into a window sill and let out the most pitiful sounds until I managed to get a towel around her and take her outside. Not without some pretty nasty arm scratches, I might add.


So, tell me if this is the correct way to do this. I get Mommy inside and distract her long enough for my hubby to gather up the babies (out of Momma's sight) and take them to the lower level room where they will stay. Mommy Kitty won't let me hold her, so I'll have to put a towel over her to grab her and take her downstairs. I will have the room all ready with litter box, food, etc. The room is my husband's office (very large) with lots of hiding places for Momma Kitty <sigh>. Should I keep a radio on with soft music 24-7 to mute out sounds from the upper level that may spook her? I'll keep a 60 watt light on in the room 24-7 since there are no windows. I will probably do this on Sunday, giving me a day to get the room ready for her, removing things that could be damaged if she throws a hissy fit and starts jumping around on the furniture.

Now....the questions.

*1. Will she accept using a litter box since this will be foreign to her?*When we brought our other two feral kitties in, we used regular litter (not the recommended dirt) and they accepted it fine. I just put a cup of used litter from my other cats litter box and the ferals used it without any problem.
*2. How often should I go in the room to check on her and the babies?*3. What if she completely freaks out and is so stressed that she wipes the room out?
*4. Should I expect it to take days for her to settle down and accept being inside?*
*5. When is it safe to attempt to touch the babies without upsetting Momma Kitty?*

Okay, the worse cases scenerio.<sigh> What if it just doesn't work?  Do I put the babies back in the cathouse and return Momma outside and hope that she isn't so mad at me that she moves them? The little bit that I have had to observe the babies, they are still a little unsure on their feet. I don't think they could be more than 4 wks at the most, so it will be some time before they will be done nursing. She nursed her first litter babies till they well past six months old. She is an excellent mother, btw.

She has a history of moving her babies if she is disturbed. She had her first litter (2) under my deck twice and we were all set to capture them and start socalizing them and get her spayed, but she must have read our minds because she moved them back to the woods. She finally brought one kitty back when he was about 6 months old and finally left him. We didn't know what happened to the other baby. Anyway, he (Sammy)stayed under the deck, near his food source and when he was 7 mo. old he finally stayed on the deck when I brought out his food. The next step was that he allowed me to touch him and, within days, I could pet and hold him and then, he just moved in. Sammy has been the most well mannered, loving, affectionate little guy imaginable. 

Almost the same scenerio with 6 month old Buddy, our second feral that just moved in about 3 wks. ago (different mother). I don't know if I have just been incredibly lucky with these two feral babies, who are way past the typical age deadline to socialize, but their transition to becoming loving inside kitties has been amazing.  

And, as hard as it is to believe, both mothers are true ferals. Momma Kitty (approx 3 yrs. old) was completely wild when she first came to eat at our house, but, with the great advice I learned from this forum, I used the techniques suggested and over time she gradually came to overcome her fear and start trusting me. It was a slow process, but it worked. I think Momma Kitty is a special kitty that craves love and human contact and that allowed her to overcome her inate fear of humans. She has come a long way in the last year to come inside and finally allow me to close the slider without her panicking. 

Now, Buddy's mother, is quite another story. She is much, much older... Actually, I think Momma Kitty could be one of her litter babies....Sadly, I can't guess how many litters she's had. I am determined to catch her after her current litter is weaned and get her spayed. I can't touch her, she's very skittish, but a very saavy ole gal. We have never been able to find where she lives and keeps her babies, but we know she travels a goodly distance to come for her food. Any, believe me, she rarely misses a meal. :lol: 

Sorry to make this so long, but I felt I had to explain things. I'd appreciate Nell or anyone else to chime in with answers to my questions. I want to be prepared to have this a successful move for Momma Kitty and her little family.

Thanks so much.
Bobbi


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## Jeanie

> *1. Will she accept using a litter box since this will be foreign to her?*When we brought our other two feral kitties in, we used regular litter (not the recommended dirt) and they accepted it fine. I just put a cup of used litter from my other cats litter box and the ferals used it without any problem.
> *2. How often should I go in the room to check on her and the babies?*3. What if she completely freaks out and is so stressed that she wipes the room out?
> *4. Should I expect it to take days for her to settle down and accept being inside?*
> *5. When is it safe to attempt to touch the babies without upsetting Momma Kitty?*


1. She will be looking for a place to scratch, so this should work. If not, try dirt.

2. I would go to the room for a half an hour a couple of times a day. Read or talk quietly. Keep the room dimly lit, but not with a table lamp, of course, in case of fire. Move the food closer to you each day, just as you probably did when you tamed her outside. Interactive toys and treats are helpful, but she should always make the first moves. 

3. and 4. Nothing is certain, because all cats are different. Make things as cozy and quiet as possible, and keep the room quiet with only a little bit of light. Mother cats do not want bright light on their kittens eyes. There are products that claim to keep cats calm in difficult situations. Ask at the Pet Store, and make sure it's safe for kittens. Feliway is one brand.

She alreadys trusts you somewhat, but you might have to do the process again. There's more detail in this link. However, the important thing is to always allow her to make the first move. Treats and interactive toys are helpful, and you will be moving the food a bit closer to you daily, as we already discussed.

http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=36326

5. Any time she leaves the kittens to eat or use the litter box, any time possible, talk to the kittens and touch them. It's important for them to be handled young. They will probably hiss, but they'll learn to enjoy your gentle touch.

I wish you the very best. I sincerely hope this works. It is an ideal solution for the kittens and mother. I hope there are toys to distract her. Catnip toys should help. Good luck. Please keep us informed.


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## bobbimcd

<<I agree with Nell about keeping the little family indoors. I think it might be wise to put food for the other ferals at the approach to the porch. It sounds as if Mother cat is a stray, but if there are feral Toms, they might kill the kittens. This is not uncommon among feral cats, although somewhat rare among housepets. >>

Hi Jeanie,

You were one of the angels who gave me such good advice in introducing Sammy to living inside.  Actually, it was exactly one year ago that he became a wonderful addition to our family.

So far this evening, the other cats have not disturbed Momma Kitty and babies. They ate their food and after grooming, left. I had to ward off a pesty possum with a broom that had Momma Kitty a little stressed, but all is well now. We have two heated boxes on the deck bench for any kitties that want to spend the night, so the occupied cathouse will not prevent them from having a warm place to sleep. 

I just peeked thru the window into the cathouse and Momma and babies are all stretched out in their toasty warm house fast asleep.  It just makes my heart go piddy pat when I see those adorable babies snuggled up to their mommy, with their little tummies full from having nursed into la la land, knowing they are safe for the night, not sleeping on the cold, dark, damp ground in such cold temps. Now....if they can just hang on for one more night till we can get them moved inside. <sigh> We may do it tomorrow if I get some of my questions answered so I can be better prepared for what to expect from Momma Kitty.

Jeanie asks<<Have you contacted an organization who supports T/N/R? (trap,neuter, release) I'm sure you don't want the colony to continue to grow. Perhaps one of the stickies at the top of this forum will direct you to the right organization. >>

Yes, I did last year when I was going to trap Momma's first litter. But, there isn't any organization locally. We have a live trap already and I can manage the expense to neuter/spay the cats, so, it's just a matter of getting it done. I wish I could get someone else to do the trapping. I have a hard time thinking about trapping the cats  , but I have to get over that and concentrate on the eventual good gained from getting them spayed/neutered. I do get a lot of solace in knowing that I am, at least, doing so good in providing them with good nutrious food so they don't have to go scrounging for their meals. 

I do have to share a cute story about Buddy's mother (who we call Floppy because one ear is all bent and crumpled from a fight, I imagine), the old, saavy gal, who is a real survivor. As I told Nell, she travels a good distance, across a busy road and down clear across a golf course, to come to my house for her meals. Part of her educating her last litter was to bring one baby, (probably when they were about 6 wks. old) clear across the length of the golf course to my house to show them where the food source was. She would bring one baby in the morning when she came to eat and leave them under the deck (where I kept dry and fresh canned food and water twice a day) and she would return in the evening, eat and then return home. She did this with all four of the litter mates.  

When she had them weaned (earlier than I would want), she deposited her little family at my house and moved on with her life.  Three of them soon got brave enough to venture off to live in the nearby woods, but return daily for their meals. One of the babies who decided he wasn't brave enough to leave was Buddy, our newest family member.  
He decided that he wasn't cut out for being a survioralist and knew a good thing when he saw it, I guess.  He was a gutsy little guy from the git go and was right at home immediately.

After I get Momma Kitty and her babies settled inside (fingers crossed), I hope to get the rest of the litter mates vet-checked, shots and spayed/neutered. If someone could adopt them, I think there is hope that they could be still be socialized. They come look in thru the sliding glass doors and see Buddy inside and they seem very curious with why he is inside amd what they are missing. With a little patience, I believe they could be wonderful inside kitties. They are adorable. Our only no-kill shelter is over-flowing with cats and, it's difficult for them to find room for more. Sadly, as you know, older kitties aren't as easy to adopt out, and they have many older ones that stay in the shelter far too long iwth little hope of being adopted.  

Well, I have rambled on enough for one night, so I'll close for now.

Thanks again for your help, Jeanie.

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, you're the angel, not me. I'm so glad Sammy is a member of the family now. It's heartwarming to hear how well he has done, and how Buddy came to you. Cats are such smart little mommies. I wish you the best with this little family. 

It's so sad to think of the dear cats that are waiting in shelters. My prayer is that they will find homes. I'm sure the shelter knows about Petfinder. 

I feel blessed to have played a small part in Sammy's life, and you are a blessing to these cats. God bless you and your mission. 

Keep us posted, please!


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## Nell

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan and I don't have much I can add. I think things should go okay, but if mom cat can't adjust to being inside, you'll have to make the decision on whether or not you keep the kittens there. 
If it were me, I would choose to keep the kittens inside, feeding them some KMR or other kitten formula to replace mom's milk. If you were to put them all back outside, mom would probably move them and you may never see them again...

I look forward to the next update. good luck!


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## bobbimcd

Nell says>>If it were me, I would choose to keep the kittens inside, feeding them some KMR or other kitten formula to replace mom's milk. If you were to put them all back outside, mom would probably move them and you may never see them again... >>

Hi Nell, My biggest fear is that she would move them today. She was gone most of the day, which made me fear that she was out preparing a new location for the babies. <sigh> So.....tonight is the night to bring them all in. I have the room all ready (I hope), I got lots of new cat toys, scratching post, litter box, food and water, child-proof gates up at the entrance doors to keep her from darting out when I open the room doors. and have catnipped everything in sight.  

I decided to put the large metal dog cage in the room with the cat bed inside for the babies (leaving the cage door open). I covered it with a dark sheet to make it more cozy. I thought that she and the babies might be frightened in such a large open space and the cage might make them feel more secure. 

Frankly, I am terrified about trying to gather her up and take her downstairs. If she freaks out and gets away from me and runs thru the house, I'll never get her to come out of hiding.  The plan is for me to put a thick beach towel around her (have been practicing by putting a blanket around her, which she tolerates) and then my husband (who will be hiding nearby) will come in with a pillowcase to put her in to be sure that she can't wiggle out of my grasp and get injured. Then, once she is safely in the downstairs room, we will get the babies. 

My husband peeked in to check on them earlier this afternoon and they were way back in the rear of the cathouse hiding behind the cat bed and they hissed at him and showed their claws, so they may put up more of a fight than I thought. We'll be wearing gloves and protection on our arms to ward off any scratching that might ensure.

I'll post later to update you when the deed is done. :lol: I just hope that she doesn't freak out too much to where she won't nurse the babies.

Fingers crossed,
Bobbi


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## bobbimcd

*Update on Momma Kitty transfer*

Well, it didn't go well. I brought Momma in and did our usual cuddling session and then wrapped her in a towel ready to transfer into a pillow case. But.....she squirmed out of the towel, completey freaked out, running around the kitchen. She came running back to the sliding door and crashed into it....more running, returned to the door and another loud thud as she hit the glass. My husband was trying to catch her, but she was't having any of that. He said we should just let her go outside, but I wanted to try one more time to catch her. Finally, when she came back to the slider, I grabbed her and hubby got her and took her downstairs. <big, big sigh> She cowered under a table, panting, with big wide frightened eyes. I was in tears, sure we had done the wrong thing. She was so, so scared and just glared at me. All the trust was gone....I was the predator.  Hubby returned to the room in quick order with all 3 babies in tow and showed each of them to Momma and put them in the cage. Thank goodness we had decided to get her there first or they would have witnessed her terror and been even more frightened of us.

I sat quietly for awhile, talking softly to her and then left, totally crushed at what we had done to her. 

I waited about 45 mins. and went to check on her. I saw that she had found the fresh bowl of canned food and had eaten most of it, which made me feel a little better. One of the babies had gotten out of the cage and was with her under the table, where I had left her. Baby took off to a corner.....very scared of me. I sat on the floor and motioned to Momma, and amazingly, she walked over, rolled on her side and allowed me to pet and cuddle with her. What a relief! I checked out her head to see if she had any bumps or signs of injury and didn't see anything. She didn't seem to mind me touching her head, so I hope she wasn't hurt.

After I paused from petting her, she walked toward the baby and called him to her. The baby came over. Momma groomed him and then stretched out on her side and the baby started nursing....both seeming to be very content. I just sat very still, not talking, but just watching her. The 2 other babies peered over the back of the cat bed in the cage to look at me, but made no attempt to leave the cage.

Apparently, Baby fell asleep while nursing and Momma let out a whirly little sound, as if to say, "Hey, Kid, get with it. I don't have all night."  Immediately, the little paws started kneading into Momma's breast and the sucking resumed in earnest. This happened three times  and finally, baby collapsed on her Momma's side into a deep sleep.  

I continued to just sit on the floor for another 10 mins. or so, and could see that Momma was asleep, as well. When I got up to leave, she opened her eyes, without stirring, and closed her eyes again.


So far, she hasn't let out a peep of that distressed meow I feared, which I am so grateful for. I hope that is a good sign. I will not go down anymore tonight to allow her to check out the room and get some much needed rest. I just hope that she finds the litter box. Surely she will investigate it and know what to do.

I'll give another update again tomorrow to let you know how things are going. 

Thanks so much, Nell and Jeanie, for your wise advice. I'm sure I would have botched this big time without your help.  

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, I'm glad the hard part is over. I hope all goes well from now on! Even cats who have been pets can react this way to a change, such as the vet's office. A trap would have been easier for you, but she would probably been just as upset. Dry your tears. You did well.


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## Nell

It must have been heartbreaking to see her so scared. 
You did a good thing though, and it sounds like everything turned out alright. Mom and kittens are safe, and it sounds like mom cat is adjusting to being inside pretty well so far. 

Keep up the good work!!


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## bobbimcd

*Sunday update*

All was quiet through the night and when I went down early this morning, Momma was very happy to see me and quite lovey. No sign of the babies, so I assumed they were in the back of the cage out of sight.


Thankfully, Momma had used the litter box. Actually, I was surprised that she chose the Litter Robot instead of a small generic type litter box that I had set up, thinking she would be afraid to go in the weird looking Litter Robot. But, that is great because the Litter Robot is so much easier....no smell, no scooping.  

I have been down several times to check on her and spend time with her. She seems so relaxed and even laid right beside me and took a short nap. I just hope things continue on this tone and she doesn't start getting antsy to go outside. Not having any windows is a real plus because she can't see outside and get panicked to get out. 

My 3 other kitties know something really big is going on in "that room" because they run at break neck speed when I head down downstairs. They camp outside of the office door, hoping they are going to get inside.

I have one concern, which may be too soon to get all worked up about, but each time I've gone down (after the first time this morning) I saw that the babies are hiding together behind a large wicker bookcase. I don't know if they spend anytime in the cage. I replaced the larger cat bed for a smaller one that doesn't have high sides so I can see if they are in there when I go in the room. They won't be able to hide completely behind it so that I can't see them, at least.

I haven't attempted to approach them because I don't want to have them be more frightened of me than they are. I can see that having such a large area for them to hide may make it a little more difficult for me to make contact with them to overcome their fear of humans. *Should I just give it a few more days and see if they start getting curious enough to come out of hiding? * Since they are so young, I don't think tempting them with treats would work. None of the toys have been moved, so they aren't playing with them. I wish I had a webcam so I could see what goes on in the room when I am not there. :lol: 

Momma Kitty did a couple of her whirly little cat talk sounds calling the kitties when I was down the last time, which I guessed was to bring them out of hiding, but they didn't budge from their hiding place. Maybe she'll be able to get them to come out when she thinks the time is right.

So....for now, everything seems to be going pretty well, considering that it is less than 24 hours since Momma and Kitties were moved inside.

I'm going to re-read the article Jeanie referred me to on tips dealing with contact with the kitties, but if anyone has any suggestions, that would be great.

I hope I'm not boring you all to death, but this is such a new and untraveled experience for me and I just want to make it work for Momma and the kitties.  I'll keep you posted on any new developments.

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

This sounds great, but I think you'll have to have a play pen of sorts for the kittens. The younger you socialize them, the better.


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## bobbimcd

Jeanie says>>This sounds great, but I think you'll have to have a play pen of sorts for the kittens. The younger you socialize them, the better. >> 


Hi Jeanie,

Will this distress Momma to have them confined in the play pen? I could put an upholstered stool that I have in the room at the side of the playpen for her to jump up on to get in. I have an older square mesh sided playpen that I loaned to my daughter when her cat had kittens, so I guess I should go get that right now. Worth giving it a try.

She said her baby kittens climbed out of the playpen, but, I imagine that they were a little older when they did that. Hopefully, my kitties won't do that until I have had time to get them comfortable with me.

On my way to get the playpen right now. Thanks so much, Jeanie, for the suggestion. I'll let you know how it goes.  

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Yes, she should have easy access to the playpen. The mesh is good. Just pet them gently, offer tidbits on your fingers, ignore the hissing. Even two week old kittens will hiss at first. There are more suggestions in the sticky, too.  This is exciting!


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## bobbimcd

*Me again...needing clarification on Jeanie's instructions*

Jeanie said<<There's more detail in this link. 
http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=36326 >>

Hi Jeanie,

I've read the article on feral kittens twice (and printed out), but I'm more than confused since the article seems to reference how to deal with orphaned feral kitties. It says to put them in a cage in an area when people are so they can get accustomed to humans and household sounds, etc. 

My situation is different in that we have Momma Kitty, as well, and she can't be trusted out of the secured room. Unfortunately, the upper level of our home is very open with no secure place to put Momma and the babies. As it is, I have them in a dimly lit room, quiet (some household noises do penetrate the room, however). I haven't had the radio on while I'm not in there, contrary to the article's instructions. 

I got the babies moved into the playpen around 12 p.m. today . We lined the inside of the mesh walls of the playpen with clear plastic strong enough that their little claws can't penetrate to allow them to crawl out of the cage. I put a 9X12 baking pan with litter in it and within the first hour, someone used it. Yeah!! I don't even want to think about the previous days "deposits" on my good carpeting while they were in deep hiding behind a large decorative folding screen or behind the wicker furniture. :lol: I thought Momma Kitty took care of their tolieting waste until they were a little older, until a friend told me otherwise. Shows you how much I don't know about baby kittens, never having had one before.

I have tried to not disturb them until they get settled in to their new surroundings, but when I peek in to see what they are doing, do I ever get a birage of hissing directed at me!  I don't know if Momma has been in the pen yet to nurse them, but she could have done it when I wasn't in the room.

Momma Kitty is still doing okay. She just wants me to pet her constantly when I am in there. She just seems to lay around all the time, which concerns me. I've tried to interest in some of the cat toys to give her some exercise, but I don't think she has ever had the chance to do playful things trying to survive in the wild, which is really, really sad.  I sure hope she isn't getting depressed being trapped inside the room. My husband is very concerned that we will be keeping her penned up in that room for 6 to 8 more weeks. He thinks we are being cruel to do that to her, but until the babies are weaned, I can't see any other options.  

If you have any other instructions that fit my circumstances, I would be very grateful. Thanks so much.

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, The only part of that article I thought might be valuable is to approach the kittens gradually, with a closed hand. I would also start touching the tops of their heads. Talk to them, and offer little bits of 
good canned food when they are hungry. Let them lick it off your fingers.

Mother cat _does_ clean up after the kittens, but not after they start eating solid food. They might be a bit older than you thought, but certainly nottoo old to tame. Be brave!

You will probably need an enzyme cleaner for the areas where they hid. However, they might have been using mother's litter box, so check before you buy the special cleaner. Good luck! 

You and mother kitty are doing so well!


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## bobbimcd

*Some really new developments......*

Well, it has been a major eventful day, so far. When I went down very early this morning to feed Momma Kitty, I saw that two of the babies were no longer in the playpen. They were under the wicker furniture, looking very cautiously at me. I decided to leave them alone and try to move them back to the pen when I came down again later. 

It was cleaning lady day and I wanted to be in the room with Momma and family when Mary ran the vacuum near the cat room. And, as expected, they were all pretty freaked out with the noise. I was sitting by Momma petting her to soothe her fears. The black kitty that was still in the pen was really crying. This upset the other babies and they came out of hiding to the pen, as if to try to get the baby out of there. Their fear of the noise must have overcome their fear of me and they made a mad dash to Momma and she started nursing them, right at my feet. I went over to the baby in the pen and started petting her, even tho she was hissing. Within a few minutes, she relaxed and seemed to enjoy me touching her. I took her out of the bed and placed her on my lap and pet her all over for a couple minutes more and then put her down with Momma to nurse. I started petting all the babies as they nursed for several minutes, with no adverse reaction. I realize that they probably had no idea that it was a human doing this, but it gave me great joy to be able to finally touch them.  The vacuuming had finally ceased near the room, so I decided to leave them to finish nursing.

But.....another very interesting development. When my husband and I returned from voting, my husband went out to get the mail and while returning noticed that a very small grey and white kitty was on our front door stoop. 8O I went out to look and sure enough, there he/she was. I went back in and got a fiber cat pad and, dispite the hissing, placed the baby on the pad. My only thought was that it was one of Floppy Kitty's babies (the other older momma cat) and she would probably come get the baby soon. An hour went by and the kitty was still on the door stoop.

I had suspected that Floppy had moved her kitties near the deck because she has been spending most of her time here, which is not normal for her. And, we were right. My husband went out in the backyard and, sure enough, saw a couple kitties playing in the bushes by the deck. They appeared to be much bigger than this unknown kitty, however. So, when Floppy came to get lunch, I brought the kitty on the deck and placed it by Floppy. She gave it a sniff or two and then started to hiss and growl, walked away, totally rejecting the baby. 

We couldn't believe that it could Momma Kitty's baby, thinking she would never have left it alone. She had ample time before we moved the 3 kitties from the cat house into the house for her to have moved the 4th baby. But, I took the baby downstairs and presented it to Momma. She did the sniffing thing and then hissed, with ears drawn back, and growled even more than Floppy Kitty. I made a quick exit, with a very confused little bundle of fur, who seemed very happy to have found her mommy.  

So now, what to do? Neither mother claimed or accepted the baby. It was obvious that the baby was very thin and hungry. Amazingly, we had instant socialization with this little one. She didn't want to be put down and even producted a steady purr for us.  

We had some KMR and a baby bottle, so I whipped some up. But, bless his heart, my husband made the hole in the nipple too large and it slit down the side, so off I went to the vet. After tellling the Vet about the situation, he thought that possibly Momma Kitty's babies had been threatened by some animal and the grey baby got separated from the rest of the litter and Momma Kitty moved the rest of the litter to the cat house to protect them. He thought the baby had wandered around to the front of the house, where we found her. He said that he didn't think Momma Kitty would accept the lost kitty after being separated since Saturday. I don't know if he is right. Does anyone have any opinions on this?

So....seems like I have become her new Mommy.  The Vet suggested that instead of giving her milk by bottle, I try feeding her a couple Tbs of Science Diet canned kitty food first. If she didn't accept that, then try dry kitty food soaked in warm water. Also, he suggested offering her a small bowl of KMR to see if she could lap it. Last resort was to use the baby bottle.

When I got home and had the baby all settled in our half bath which is right off the kitchen, I offered her the canned food and she gobbled down about a Tbs. or so of it. The Vet said I should use a warm moistened tissue to wipe on her bottom to stimulate her going to the bathroom and then put her in the small litter box. She didn't do anything, but who knows when she had nursed last.  She seems quite content in the bathroom. We put a child's gate up at the door so she can see out. My other kitties camped out at the door's entrance staring that thekitty for awhile until they got bored with the whole thing.  
......................................

I'm finishing this post that I had started earlier. News......I added used cat litter to her little box and she went Tinkle! Yeah! She apparently hasn't learned to cover this up. Do I have to show her?  And, best of all, I gave her a half a cup of warmed KMR and she lapped it up. I really want her to drink the KMR as much as possible for the next couple weeks or so. Should I suppliment it with the canned food or just do KMR only?

Lots of questions....... I need help, here, Ladies.  I am in completely untraveled territory with this new baby. At least Momma Kitty is taking care of the duties of the other three. I wonder about all the other things Momma's teach their babies before weaning. Will this baby suffer from not having Momma to teach her the necessary things they need to know?

Gotta run. Will look forward to any responses to my quesitons. Sorry to make this post so long.

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, I think a bit of canned food will be fine. I am really pleased that you have become the kittens' heroine, their savior from the big, bad noise! Who would have believed it?

I think this little grey and white kitty could be Mother Kitty's. If not, she could become her kitten...with some effort and luck. Regardless, her odor is wrong. If the little one is not weak or ill, I would bathe her to rid her of the odor she has now. (Keep her warm, of course.) Then, you have to get Mother Kitty's smell on her. First, rub Mother with a small towel, and use that on the baby. Do that frequently. Also, when Mother is distracted, try putting the kitten in with the other kittens, one at a time..in the playpen. You could also put a tiny drop of vanilla on the back of Mother and all the kittens, including the grey and white one.

I don't know if this will work for you, but it's possible. Years ago, I had a litter of kittens, and the last had just found a home. A friend came with a very young orphan kitty, hoping to compare her with my kittens and decide which she would take. Of course I had no kittens left--as of the day before. The little orphan could not eat from a dish. I told my friend I would take care of the orphan until she was ready to leave. Then I held my mother cat down and allowed the little one to nurse. Mother was not happy. She hissed, of course. I did that quite often day one. Since mother cat was my pet, after a few feedings, I did not have to hold her down by nighttime, just say "no" when she decided to get up. By the middle of the next day, she started to bathe the kitten, and from then on, it was her baby. Thank goodness! I was much younger, and didn't know as much about cats, or I would have done "the scent thing" first. 

So, do whatever is possible to get the Mother and kittens' scent on this new baby. It would be great if she had a family. Make sure you have bathed her and rubbed her with mother's scent, and do the "vanilla thing" before you put her in with a kitten. I would do one at a time. If that goes smoothly eventually, and after a couple of days of putting mother's scent on her, try her with mother. Wear gloves! My cat was my pet, so you will probably not have results as quickly as I did. I sincerely hope this works, because I like nature's way best. Good luck and a prayer for that little orphan. :luv


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## Nell

oh boy! It really does sound like today was an eventful day!
Its great to hear that the kittens are warming up to you, and that momma cat is adjusting to being inside quite well... makes me think that it could be very possible to turn her into a house cat. You'd be surprised how well some outdoor cats adjust to being indoor only... My Sadie was an outdoor cat proir to the time she came to me. The first few nights indoors for her were a bit stressful and she was very restless and uneasy. I wondered if having her indoors was going to work out at all, but after a couple days she settled down, and now she doesn't even like being outside.

Any guess as to how old the new kitten is?
I agree that it would be great if she could become part of the other little family.  I don't have any experience with introducing orphanded kittens to a foster mother, so I can't give you any suggestions, but I wish you the best of luck!

Its so great that you've taken these kittens and mom cat into your home  You're giving them a wonderful chance at a new life that they wouldn't otherwise have, and helping to control the feral population at the same time. 

Are you planning on catching Floppy's kittens too? They may still be young enough that they can be successfully socialized and adopted out. It might be hard having all those kittens to care for, but maybe you know someone who would be willing to take them in instead?

To answer some questions,
Kittens who leave their mother early are more likely to have problems, but that doesn't mean they all will. Sometimes it just means that the people that are caring for them have to work a little bit harder to ensure that their mental and social needs are met, so if you don't get momma cat to accept the new baby, all hope is not lost.

We just got a new kitten a few weeks ago. He was a feral rescue and the day I caught him, the vet guessed his age to be about 4 weeks, maybe 5. He had been living in a greenhouse where my mom works along with his sibling, but no one had ever seen an adult cat in the area so its a mystery as to how long he's been without a mom. My mom had been putting out food for the kittens, so they were eating solid food. When I brought him home, I fed him KMR mixed with canned food because I thought he could use the extra nutrition. He has had a few extra issues that I attribute to being seperated from his mother early, the biggest one being biting, but we're addressing that issue and its much less of a problem now. He hasn't had any litterbox, hygeine or nursing/dependancy problems which are sometimes an issue with kittens that didn't spend enough time with mom.


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## bobbimcd

*Wednesday morning progress with the orphan kitty*

Hi Nell and Jeanie,

Thanks for all your advice. Oh, how I wish I had written first for advice before trying to put the orphaned baby with Momma Kitty. And, darn, I knew about the scent transfer. I think you told me that, Jeanie, when I asked about bring our new Ragdoll baby home to join Sammy, our feral kitten last year.  Well, I can't redo, so I just have to move on.

The grey baby is lapping warm KRM from a bowl, but not very much at a feeding. She is eating a little of the canned food, as well. I have been feeding her about every 2 to 3 hours (or when I see that she is awake). Nell, thanks for the tip about mixing KRM with the canned food. I am going to try that so I can get more milk in her. I fed her at 8 p.m. last night and did the moist tissue stimulation, and Waa Laa, she had a BM. She then snuggled down in her cozy bed until 2:30 a.m. I woke up and went to check on her and she was awake, so I fed her again and she went right back to sleep. When I got up at 6:15 a.m., she was awake, but laying quietly in her bed.

The days have been so hectic, running one into the other, it didn't occur to me until I was in bed last night that she has been on her own since, at least, last Friday morning, Four Days . That's the morning Momma moved the remaining three into the cat house. And, Nell, you asked how old she is. She can't be more than 4 weeks. She is about the same size as the littlest of Momma's other kitties. I am more certain that she is the fourth from her litter. How she survived four days and nights without a predator getting her, I just can't imagine! She had to be so cold, hungry and afraid. What a miracle that she managed to end up on our front door stoop. We have a step up from the sidewalk and a wide stoop area and then another step up to the door (where we found her). She is so small, I marvel that she was able to navigate those steps to get where she was. She had to have an angel watching over her to get her there where we could find her.  

She is extremely thin, but, is very alert (eyes very bright) and seems healthy, as far as I can tell. I am relieved that she is eating, and doing her bodily functions. I take that as a good sign. I witnessed her going into the litter box on her own early this morning for a healthy BM. She still hasn't figured out she has to cover it, however. :lol: Will she learn that on her own? I held her so she could watch me cover it, so I'll see if she does it.

She is so tame and lovey, it's hard to believe that she is a feral kitty. She is exposed to the normal household sounds and seems to not be frightened by them. She allowed my son-in-law and granddaughter to pick her up, as well. Which presents my dilemma about trying to return her to Momma Kitty and babies. Momma Kitty just won't leave the babies in the playpen. We put them in there and when I return to the room, they are out again. After the positive step of the kitties allowing me to touch them last night, this morning, they ran for cover the minute I came in the room. I tried a couple of the toys on sticks and string to entice them out, but nothing doing. I am afraid that if the orphan kitty were put back with the litter before the others start getting over their fear of me, she will pick up on it and revert back to fearing humans, as well.

I haven't decided against trying to rejoining her back into the litter, but I do have concerns about a major backslide in her socialization with her. I would love nothing better for Momma Kitty to accept her back and teach her all the things only Momma Kitty can teach her. I would just like to see a little more progress with the other 3. I have read that separating kitties sometimes is for the best when you are trying to socialize them, however, our situation (with Momma Kitty caring for the babies) doesn't make that an option.

Jeanie, you said this would take a few days, introducing the kitty to one of the littermates to see how that goes, and gradually, with scent transfer, to Momma Kitty. Would it hurt I waited till tomorrow to make a decision? I just don't want to rush into it today?

If I decided to not put her with Momma and the littermates, would the orphan kitty learn from my other kitties (Sammy, Buddy and Chloe)? I don't plan to give her free reign for awhile.....she is too small and fragile, but, if all goes well with her weight gain, possibly in another week or so.

As for Floppy Kitty's babies.......I'm working on finding someone to take them. As I said earlier, we don't have resources locally, so it is tough finding someone to take feral kitties to socialize. I think I have my hands full with my current brood. If anyone had told me a year ago that I would have eight cats in my house, I'd say they were crazy! :lol: I know that her kitties need to be trapped soon.....I think they are about 5 wks old right now and something needs to be done soon, but should they be taken away while they are still nursing and not eating solid food yet?

I got worm medicine for Floppy and Momma Kitty and they've had their second dose today. The Vet gave me worm treatment for the babies that I will give as soon as they start eating solid food....vaccinations to follow at the appropriate time.

I'll keep you posted on the kitties. By the way, is there a place on the cat forum site with instructions on how to insert a photo in a message? I would like to get a photo of the kitties to share with you.

Bye for now,
Bobbi


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, just take your time about the introduction. Do what feels comfortable. It's a miracle that the little gray and white kitten found her way to you.  

I've been hoping for pictures! You can upload your pictures to the gallery. (Cat Photos, at the very top of the forum) Then, you can post them by following the directions in this thread.:

http://www.catforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=184459#184459

You're doing so well with this little family! I'm always anxious to read your posts.


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## bobbimcd

Hi Nell and Jeanie,

Thanks Jeanie for the info on posting photos. I'm working on it and hope to have some posted tomorrow.

Latest report on kitties. Good news!  Yesterday afternoon, I got the idea to try to win the kitties over with food. So, I put a couple or three tsps. of canned kitten food on a lg. plastic lid when I took Momma's food down and placed it in front of the wicker bookcase the kitties hide out behind. Within a few mins., the aroma had filtered to them and that brought them out, cautiously, sniffing to find out the source of the smell. I was sitting a few feet away from them with Momma, yet, their curiousity was more powerful than the fear of my close presence. 

After the grey kitty checked out the food, he dove right in and started lapping it up. The others were mildly interested, but didn't hang around, being more interested in playing with some of the new toys I had bought yesterday. Shortly after, Momma gave out her "come here, babies" sound and amazingly, the blk/white kitty, (dubbed "Socks" because her/his front feet are white and the back legs are completely white) strutted up to Momma and me. She/he allowed me to pet her, even though I was doing a "no, no" of approaching her from the front, which she didn't seem to fear. I picked her up and put her on my lap, held her in my hands and kissed and loved on her with no struggle from her to get away. I put her down and Momma groomed Socks and then he/she started nursing. The other babies were taking a nap by that time, so I left the room, feeling like I had made a major gain with Socks, at least.  

I should say that by offering them the canned food, it was only an experiment to see if that would get their attention and they would venture out of hiding. The grey baby was the only one that seemed interested in eating the wet food. The other two were just more curious to see what it was. I don't want Momma to cut back on nursing and start weaning them this early by feeding them solid food. I have seen the babies over by Momma's food area when I come into the room. I don't know if they are eating any of her wet or dry food that I have for her. I haven't seen any signs (from the litter deposits) that they are using the litter box, so she must still be cleaning up after them. 

On my second visit this morning, the kitties had been playing out in the room when I walked in. They scattered quickly, but as soon as I sat down in the middle of the room with Momma, they came out of hiding and started playing about 3 feet from me. They were climbing in and out the wicker bookcase shelves, playing with the balls and the felt mice and having a great time, totally oblivious to my presence. Then, without any call from Momma, Socks came right up to me and allowed me to pick her up, kiss and love on her for several minutes. 8O Yeah!!!!! This baby was been the most aggessive hisseer from the beginning, so I am very surprised and pleased that she is the first to begin to accept me. 

So far, I have been able to pet each one. The grey baby seems very curious of me and while she isn't as brave as Socks, she peeks out and watches me when I am talking, petting and loving on Momma. She just hasn't figured me out yet, but she is getting more comfortable in my presence. The blk baby, smallest of the three, is the most timid and fearful. My first encounter with her, when she was in the play pen, went well, but I haven't been able to touch her since. It seems that when the three are together and one is afraid, group fear mentality takes over and they hiss at me, but when I encounter them one on one, they are much more receptive to me touching and holding them. So.....I feel very encouraged with the progress in the last 24 hours. We still have a long way to go, but it is looking so much better that they will all come around. Momma seems to be encouraging my contact with the babies and is totally relaxed during my interaction with them.

And, now.....the latest on our upstairs baby. I've gotta to come up with a name for her and the others.....Any appropriate suggestions are welcome. She is doing great.....drinking the KRM mostly, and some of the canned wet food, but not eating every much at a time. Her litter habits are getting better, but she doesn't always cover her deposits. :lol: She will dig a hole, but ends up going in a totally different place than the hole.  She seems to think she is supposed to groom herself in the litter box. It is so cute watching her try to groom herself. Many times the paw is waving in the air, totally missing contact with her body, losing her balace and falling over in the litter. I have been taking a tissue dipped in warm water and grooming her all over (as Momma Kitty would do), which she seems to enjoy. She gets her chest pretty sticky from the KRM because she hasn't completely mastered the lapping technique to keep from dripping milk off her chin onto her chest. Sometimes, one foot ends up in the bowl.....She doesn't like that at all. Then, the "yuck" is only compounded when she steps into the litter box to groom her feet and the litter sticks between her toes. That's when I step in to help her by dipping her feet in a sm. bowl of water. Otherwise, she ends up with litter in her mouth... What could be more yucky? :lol: 

She has the same white markings as Socks, (blk and white baby). They both have very long white whispers around their big eyes. She is definitely the (runt) smallest of the litter. Could Momma have possibly rejected her, rather than her getting lost? She really seems healthy, but, I think I am going to take her to the Vet tomorrow and have her checked out to be sure that she is getting enough nuriousment and, hopefully, see if they can guesstimate how old she and the others are. They are all so adorable. What can be cuter than baby kittens?????? I have to keep reminding myself that I will not be keeping these babies. I will not be keeping these babies....I will not be keeping these babies.  


Enough of my ramblings, somewhat boring to others who may be following this thread, perhaps, but a milestone for my little kitty family. I wouldn't have made it this far without your generous help, Ladies.

Hope to have photos tomorrow.

Bye for now,
Bobbi.....


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## Jeanie

Very engrossing and very heartwarming! You're doing so well! Some name suggestions:

Smoky (gray)
Shadow ( black)
Socks... of course
Misty (gray and white)

Of course, when you know the sex, Misty could be a bit sissified!  The only reason mother kitty would reject a kitten is if there is a problem. How does little gray and white kitten walk? She obviously eats and defecates with no problem. Don't worry; she'll learn how to cover the litter. I would still rub Mother and her with the same towel in advance.


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## bobbimcd

*Latest update on feral babies*

Boy, I can't believe how long since I checked in with the progress of the kitties. I've been busier than a one-armed paper hanger tending to Momma and the kitties, cleaning 4 litter boxes umpteen times a day, in addition to my regular duties.  

The kitties are doing great! Oh, by the way, Jeanie, I used some of your name suggestions. Socks, of course, the blk and white; Misty, I decided fit the grey kitty (her eyes are killer beautiful...very mottled misty tone)and what a lover she is, very affectionate and calm, but more about her later.

I decided to call the more timid black baby Shadow, because she/he is always following the others. Even when they are in the bed, he/she is always in the back, protected by the others. And, our little orphan, I have named Angel. She is gaining weight and has become the ruler of the roost. We allow her out after naps and her duties done and she is not afraid of anything or anyone. Chloe, our Ragdoll, is the babysitter when Angel is out on the loose. She sits nearby and just watches Angel and follows her when Angel heads off to another area.

Buddy, our 7 mo. old former feral plays with her and is reasonably gentle in his swatting when he plays with her. She dishes out as good as she gets, by the way. :lol: Sammy, the 15 mo. old former feral is kinda "ho hum" about Angel, but does engage in play with her when my husband gets out the wand toys. Angel loves the ball disc and playing in the chair and table legs....dashing from one place to another. 

Shadow has finally gotten brave enough to not go in hiding when I come into the room and plays with my slippers and pants legs when I am on the floor with them. She has made wonderful progress in the past two days. All are eating canned food and Momma is still nursing, but not for very long at a sitting. Momma is doing great, as well. Very calm and settled in with her new home.

I had been taking tons of photos of them in their playful antics. Are they michieveous. It is so entertaining to just sit and watch them play.

I have been struggling in my efforts to post photos in the Cat Forum Photo Gallery. As much as I want to get some posted for viewing, I have decided to post my online gallery URL for you to view the photos I have there until I have time to mess with the Cat Forum Gallery. The URL for my Feral Kitties Gallery is: 

http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/fostered_f ... s&page=all

You will probably have to copy and paste the address into your browser. Once you are there, if you look on the upper right hand corner, you can select the Slideshow or just click on the first photo to enlarge and click on Next in the upper right hand corner of that page to advance to the next photos. I have, what I think is a really cute series of Misty clinbing my 7ft
palm tree in my husband's office. I had initially thought Socks was the biggest and bravest, but she lost out to Misty after the tree climbing experience.  

I would like for you to see my other kitties, Sammy, Chloe and Buddy. Here is the link to their gallery:

http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/my_kitties&page=all

I think the kitties are ready to be introduced to other people by now, so, for starters, I am going to have my 8 yr. old granddaughter come over after school this week and see how things go with taking her in to see the babies. My husband hadn't been in the room since the babies moved in to his office until yesterday when he had to go in to get some paperwork. Momma Kitty came right up to him and rubbed her body around his leg to greet him. The kitties didn't go into hiding, but continued to play. I thought that was a good sign since they had not seen him since he retrieved them from the cat house. He will go down and spend more time with them and try to engage them in play. 

My daughters have been chomping at the bit to see the kitties, but I have held off allowing them to see them until I thought the kitties were ready. I'm going to have them over this weekend so they can see the babies and, hopefully, the kitties will not be afraid. 

I would like to try taking them, one by one, out of the office and bring them up to see how they do with Angel, but I'm not sure if Momma will get stressed if I take one of the babies out of sight. Any suggestions on whether that is something I should or shouldn't do for awhile?

And, Nell......when you asked what I was going to do about Floppy Kitty's two babies that were staying under our deck. Sad to say, but the day before you wrote, she moved them.  We had men cleaning our yard and blowing leaves out of the shrubs, including by the deck, and she must have gotten frightened by the disturbance and moved them. She is still coming to eat at least once a day, but no sign of her bringing the babies back. 

It's hard to believe the kitties have made such good progress. I am so pleased. They are the cutest little bundles of fluff. They must be teething, especially Angel. She tries to bit my fingers or whatever she can get hold of. My daughter said I shouldn't reward her by letting her continue doing that, but put a small toy mouse in her mouth to let her know that's what she bites or chews on. She recommended a small leather mouse type of toy that you spray catnip oil on. Is that something you would agree with or any other suggestions to discourage her from biting. She doesn't bite out of aggression, but playfully, but I want to discourage a bad habit and send the message to her that biting is a "No No".

Gotta run. Hope that you go to my gallery to see the babies photos. I am so anxious for you to see my mischieveous little cuties. I have falled in love with all of them and it's going to be hard giving them up. My daughtes are going to help find good, good homes for them. I am going to be very, very picky who gets our babies.  

I will work on getting my Cat Forum gallery going when I have more time and patience to deal with it .

Bobbi


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## bobbimcd

*Just a comment about My Kitty Gallery*

Good! The link to my gallery is hyper-linked so you can click on it to get to the galleries without having to copy and paste. 

Just wanted to explain something in the "My Kitties" Gallery, the Momma Kitty photos with babies at the end of the gallery are her first litter babies, of which Sammy is the little black one. Unfortunately, the blk and white baby didn't return with Momma when she moved them back from the woods. Our little Socks, looks so much like that baby, which makes her so much more special.

Gotta run......dinner time for the babies.  

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

The kittens are just as precious as I thought they'd be! You have done such a beautiful job with them.  All kittens like to chew on people, but as you know, it's not wise to allow it. If the toy works, great. Otherwise, they'll chew on mother's tail, each other, etc.! Momma kitty is so sweet; I wonder if she used to have a home. 

LOVE the pictures!! Keep updating us!


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## carolsclan

Good gracious , I thought my life was hectic < i havent been around much with our crazy weather messing up phone lines so i havent noticed this post.

You are doing a damm good job with your crew .... I have a pregnant feral ..... the bad cat broke through her secure door and I think did "the" deed. See my other post.... no peace for the wicked is there?

:lol:


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## bobbimcd

*Have some other important questions*

Hi Jeane and All,

Babies are doing great; they have completey bonded with me and are very affectionate and loving with me. From my calculations, they are now 7 wks old. Fortunately, I made a note when I thought Momma Kitty looked like she had given birth, so I have a week span of Oct 1-7th that they were born. 

First, from my many visits each day with them, I believe that Momma has no longer been nursing for the past week. When they are crawling around on her, they no longer make any attempts to nurse. She grooms them when they finish eating their food, but shows no interest in allowing them to nurse. The Vet said that she can't be spayed until she has stopped nursing for 2 weeks. 

First question: What should I look for in her breast changes that tells me that she is no longer producing milk?

2. Am I wrong to think that the babies will be ready to go to adoptive homes at 8 to 9 weeks? 

I don't have adoptive homes lined up yet and will need to put out feelers very soon to be sure I find very good homes for them in the next couple weeks or so. It breaks my heart to have to give them up, but it's not feasible for me to keep them.  Angel, the orphaned kitty we are keeping upstairs, well, I don't know about her.  It's not been verbalize between my husband and I, but she has become such a part of our family being around my other kitties, Sammy, Chloe and Buddy; she may not be leaving us (fingers crossed).  They have totally accepted her, grooming her and playing with her. 

I am very concerned about Momma Kitty...she seems so unhappy and depressed. She just lays around and has the saddest look in her eyes. She doesn't seem to have much of an appetite and is getting so little exercise, which concerns me. I try to get her to play, but she shows no interest. 

It's all I can do to keep from just releasing her, knowing the kitties are approaching the age to be adopted, but, I know I can't do that. She has to be spayed before she is released! I feel so guilty for putting her through the last three weeks of confinement, even though I know it was the best for her and especially, the babies. And, at the same time, I hate to think about her being back outside in the winter weather. We have had incredible weather the past week in the high 50's to low 60's, but normal winter temps will be arriving soon. I worry that she will be so fearful of me trying to capture her again that sh will not come back for her daily meals.  

I really don't think there is much of a chance that she would be satisfied to stay inside, but, until I have her spayed, I don't dare allow her freedom of the house for fear she will go ballistic and try to get out or, worse, hide somewhere and traumatize her trying to catch her.  I am going to try it and see how she reacts. I could be pleasantly surprised. I would be satisfied if she would be an inside/outside kitty, but I guess we'll have to see how she reacts after being spayed.

3.When I do find homes for the babies, do I let her see me taking the babies away from the room, so she will not look for them and should I take away one at a time? What should I expect from her when the babies are gone? 

This is my first experience with a Mother and baby kitties that have to be separated, so I don't know the correct way to do this......need help in the best way to do this.

The babies have been wormed and should have first shots at 8 weeks, which will be the end of next week. We have even had our first nail clipping session that went surprisingly well.  I won't take them to the Vet until they have been adopted and may just let the new family do that, even if I pay for the shots, if necessary, so that they won't have to be taken away from Momma Kitty until they are going away for good, so as not to traumatize her twice.

Up until now, this has been the most memorial experience, even though the first few days were pretty tough when the babies were so frightened of me. But, little by little, I won their trust and it has been so rewarding to know that they will not have to live in the wild and will be able to have a good life in a loving home. I am going to be very picky who gets these babies; hopefully I will find just the right families for each one of them. 

By the way, the babies are very friendly with my husband....Momma is tolerant of his presence and reasonably friendly with him. She hid when my daughters went in (separately) to see the babies. My 5 yr. old granddaughter went in to see the babies and Momma hid from her, but the babies were not afraid and allowed Maddie to hold and play with them.

I know I am bombarding you with a lot of questions at once and if anyone else, who might be following this thread, wants to jump in with answers, I will be most grateful for their advice.

Thanks in advance,
Bobbi


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## Jeanie

I'm a bit concerned about Momma's health. Is it possible she has an infection? 

For the sake of the kittens, I would wait until (ideally) they are 12 weeks, or at the least 10 weeks before they go to new homes. They learn so much from playing and from mother cat. However, shelters want the kittens younger, because that's what the public wants.  And they are always short of space. If you see mother lying on her tummy so that the kittens can't nurse, she has probably weaned them...even if they keep pestering! 

If you can keep mother cat happy for a while, there's a good possibility that she will get quite used to the comforts of a house. If worse comes to worse, there's always a kitty door. Of course, as you know, it's dangerous outside, and her life span would probably be shortened. There are cars and larger animals, etc. Even a scratch can become infected, as cats get abscesses easily.

As for the kittens: If you are going to find homes for them....Usually people come on different days. I put the kitten(s) being considered in a carrier and take them to another room. After all of the kittens are gone, mother will probably look for them for a little while, but nature seems to tell her that this is necessary. 

You had better stay with us after this is over...well it won't ever be over, really.. This has been a great experience for all of us who have read and continue to read your story. Don't dare leave us! Your experience will be valuable to people in Cat Chat and Feral Cats, and we'll enjoy talking to you in the Lounge. 

Keep us posted!


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## bobbimcd

*Thanks for the fast response*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wow, Jeanie, that was a fast response. Thanks so much. Don't worry about me leaving.... I desperately need your advice and encouragement to get me through the worse part of this experience......giving up those precious babies and getting Momma fixed, etc.

Jeanie says<<I'm a bit concerned about Momma's health. Is it possible she has an infection? >>

I have wondered if something was going on, besides possible depression, which caused her lack of appetite. I know she must be eating some because the dry food bowls levels go down between refilling. But, when I bring their food in, she acts totally disinterested. I am feeding them three times a day....perhaps that is too frequently for her. The babies dig in right away, but rarely are the bowls completely empty when I return.

As I touch Momma Kitty so much, all over her body, she doesn't seem warm (as in a temp) and doesn't seem to hurt anywhere when I touch her, but that's not any sign of a problem, is it?

If I thought the Vet would make a housecall, it would be worth the expense to have him check her out. I really don't want to put her thru the trauma of crating her up and taking her to the Vet, unless it was an emergency. We just had Buddy neutered last week and it nearly broke my heart to hear his desperate cries crating him up and when we were driving to the Vet Clinic and have to leave him there overnight.  The other kitties were really upset to hear him crying when I took him out of the house, as well. Am I a woos or what? :lol: He was fine when I got him home after a few minutes.

Jeanie continues>>For the sake of the kittens, I would wait until (ideally) they are 12 weeks, or at the least 10 weeks before they go to new homes. They learn so much from playing and from mother cat. However, shelters want the kittens younger, because that's what the public wants. And they are always short of space. If you see mother lying on her tummy so that the kittens can't nurse, she has probably weaned them...even if they keep pestering! >>


I was shooting for 10 to 12 weeks to adopt them out, but I thought that, given Momma Kitty's possible depression, it might be best for her to find homes for them a little sooner. She doesn't really play with them when I am in there. Fortunately the 3 entertain each other, so they are busy, busy, busy little fluff balls. They crawl all over her (don;'t try to nurse, however) and, for the most part, she will get up and walk away from them, as if they are a nusiance. Other than grooming them some, she doesn't seem too interested in them. She almost seems jealous if I pick up a baby and love on them. She will snuggle up closer to me, as if to tell me to pay attention to her, instead of the babies. :lol: 

<<If you see mother lying on her tummy so that the kittens can't nurse, she has probably weaned them...even if they keep pestering! >>

When I am down there with them, Momma will lay on her side and roll over from one side to another as I pet her. The thing that disturbs me is that when she is laying on the floor next to me, she kneads her paws into the carpet, constantly.....kinda like she's nervous. And, her claws are like daggers..... Boy, would I love to trim them! She will rub up against my legs when I am cleaning up the litter boxes and errant litter and tiding up the room, as if she doesn't want me to be far from her. It's really sad to see her like this.  She hasn't made any attempts to jump over the child gate that I have at the entrance door, but I am very careful to make sure she is not near the door when I leave. She always looks sad when I prepare to leave. It just breaks my heart to see her so sad. 

I mentioned her possible depression to the Vet when I picked Buddy up, but, to be honest, our Vet is not overly compassionate and he had nothing constructive to offer and even said the babies could be taken from her at 6 weeks!!!!!! Of course, there is no way that I would have done that. I told him that I disagreed about taking them away from Mother that early, but, I imagine that he thought "What does she know???"  

So, you can see how appreciative I am that you and the other wonderful experienced people in this forum, who are so knowledgeable about ferals, and are so generous to help me and others who need your advice. I trust what your advice me over my Vet. I think they get too jaded over the years, unfortuantely. 


I really don't have a problem with keeping the babies until they are 10 weeks old, as long as I have families lined up to take them. You are right that people want babies....... I would hope that if we have a family wanting one of the kitties that they would understand that it's best for the baby to stay longer with the mother.

well, it's getting late, so I will close for now. 

Thanks again, Jeanie.

Nite,
Bobbi


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## Nell

Parting with the kittens sure will be difficult... its so easy to get attached to the little furballs. I will cross my fingers that Angel will get to stay with you! Oh how sad it would be to seperate the little kitty from a group she has settled in so well with! :wink:  

Poor mamma kitty. I would feel bad too keeping her isolated, but it is only temporary and for the better in the long run. Perhaps she isn't very active because she's a bit bored, and perhaps she's not eating so much now because she's not very active and the kittens are weaned... She's not losing weight at all, is she?
You shouldn't have to wait till the kittens are gone to have momma spayed. I have even heard of mother cats being spayed right when the kittens are almost weaned... I'm not sure what the pros and cons of that are, though. I do know that its a good idea to have it done before she goes into heat again. If she goes into heat you may have to wait even longer.

As far as adopting out the kittens, I would suggest waiting until 10-12 weeks as well, but it would be good to start looking for potential adopters as soon as possible. Just let them know that they will be staying with momma for a while yet because it is better for them and will make them better pets. You could send their new owners picture updates so they don't feel like they're missing out on their kittenhood.
(psst... any chance we could get more pictures now that they're a few weeks older? :wink


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## bobbimcd

Good morning, Nell,

>>As far as adopting out the kittens, I would suggest waiting until 10-12 weeks as well, but it would be good to start looking for potential adopters as soon as possible. Just let them know that they will be staying with momma for a while yet because it is better for them and will make them better pets. You could send their new owners picture updates so they don't feel like they're missing out on their kittenhood. >>

I am going to make up small posters with photos of the babies and have one daughter post at the grade school she works at and at her church. The other daughter teaches exercise classes for mothers part-time at the Y and she is already putting out feelers for potential homes. They should come up with some good responsible prospects, hopefully. I am so glad that I have been able to get lots of photos of the babies in their antics over the past few weeks so I can send along a CD of each baby so the family can see what fun babies they will be getting. When we got Chloe, our Ragdoll, the breeder emailed me photos of her from 4 wks to 12 wks old, which was really neat to have.

>>(psst... any chance we could get more pictures now that they're a few weeks older? )>>

Here's one of granddaughter Maddie with Angel. Hope this link works. :? 









On my agenda today, since this is their 7th week birthday.  I will alert you when I get more photos posted in my gallery. I was going to do it last night but they were so sleepy when I went down with their supper, all they wanted to do was cuddle up next to me and Momma and just snooze. They are really live wires when they are playing, though and just a kick to watch. 

I agree that Momma is probably just completely bored and has cabin fever. Who wouldn't, being confined to one room for three weeks? The "paw kneading" that she does constantly reminds me of zoo bears that just pace back and forth and is heartbreaking and makes me feel so guilty that I have put her in this situation, but, at the same time, I know I have done the right thing for her and the babies and this confinement will eventually end.

I was wondering if the babies do stay until they are 10-12 wks how they would react if I would take Momma to have her spayed while they are still with us? Would Momma be very stressed to be taken away from her babies or would it be best to wait until they are ready to be placed in homes.

My comments last night about my Vet were a little too harsh. He really is a great Vet and loves cats. I may just be too over protective of my kitties because of my lack of knowledge. 

Well, gotta run. Thanks so much for responding, Nell.

Bobbi


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## bobbimcd

*Photo link didn't work.......here's another link*

Probably did something wrong, but no time to investigate now, so I am posting the same photo from my online gallery. This photo was just too sweet. Maddie loves animals, like her Mom. And, look at the lashes on that child!  

http://www.pbase.com/image/70389978

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

That picture is absolutely lovely! 

In regards to the kittens, they love to be around mother because her tail is so much fun to play with, and they love to sleep with her. However, they will have each other to cuddle and play with while mother is at the vet. Mother kitty will need some quiet recovery time after the surgery--perhaps in a bathroom with a soft bed. The kittens antics and the fact that they are bigger and a bit rougher would be a lot to put up with immediately after she is discharged. 

What concerned me was the possibility of a bit of retained placenta causing a problem. There would probably be a discharge if that was the case. 

I am relatively certain that mother kitty has had contact with human beings in the past, that she might be a stray. Once she has had her shots and tests for FIV and feline leukemia, you'll want to see how she reacts to a bit more freedom, a new place to explore. Of course, your ragdoll would have to be put in another room for a few hours. This bit of freedom might cheer her up, and give you an idea how she would react to being a house cat. I hope that's possible. It's obvious that she loves you....and you have been a great mommy to her!


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## Nell

that picture is so sweet! what a beautiful little kitten and a beautiful little daughter  

The paw kneading that momma cat does is nothing to be worried about. This is something that many cats do that stems from their kitten days when they used to knead their momma when nursing. My cats like to do this at night when we settling down for sleep. I take it as a sign of being happy and comfortable, not a nervous behavior at all. When momma cat rolls over and shows you her belly the way she has been doing, its a sign that she trusts you. When she rubs up against you, one of the things she is doing is marking you with her scent... probably trying to tell the cats upstairs that hey, she's mine!  
If she were nervous and feeling cooped up, I'd expect her to be pacing around the room and meowing sadly, especially right after you leave. It actually sounds like she has gotten pretty comfortable inside. I am betting that she will make someone a great little housecat  Maybe after she is spayed and has had a little time to recover, you could try placing her in an indoor home to see how well she adjusts. She might have forgotten all about the outside and the reasons she'd want to be out there. My Sadie was like that... in her previous life (before she came to me, that is), she was an outdoor cat and was very uncomfortable being inside (at first) but now she hates being outside unless she's on the balcony.


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## Jeanie

I agree with Nell about the kneading!  (forgot to tell you) It's comforting, something most cats like to do to their human parent's tummies! And they purr like a Rolls Royce when they do it!


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## bobbimcd

*Desperately need some advice*


Hope someone can answer soon. I started an ad for my kitties yesterday and have found wonderful families for Socks and Misty. I am so heartbroken to have to give up these babies..... I can't begin to tell you!

Anyway, Shadow, the shy baby is the only one left. I have had calls that my better judgement has made me reject these people. One lady called last night at 10:15 p.m. (rather late, I think). Just wanted to know if I had any kittens left and what color. When I told her 2 were promised, she said she'd take the last one. She wanted the kitten for her 3 yr. old as a Christmas gift. She was going to take it to another place until Christmas morning. She didn't want to come to see the kitten ahead of time.....just wanted to come get it sight unseen this morning.

I put her off, asking if she would call back this morning, since I was already in bed. Well......thankfully, she didn't call back yet. I was prepared to tell her someone who had previously called wanted Shadow. Sure.... I was going to lie, but I didn't think she would appreciate the real reason I rejected her. It was as if she was getting a free used bike for her kid and all she wanted to know was what color it was. My better judgement told me this person wanted a plaything for this 3 yr. old, not appreciating it was a fragile baby that needed loving care.


So....I just received another call a few minutes ago from a local policeman who wants to come see Shadow this evening. He had children, the youngest 2 yrs. old, who he wants the kitten for. I am getting the same feelings as my late night caller. Honestly, my stomach is so upset I can't eat, worrying about placing Shadow in a good home. If she was more assertive, I would feel that she would overcome her fears, but she is definitely the follower. 

Momma Kitty is at the vet recuperating from spaying and I have been letting the babies out into our large family room to explore and get used to more household sounds they are not familiar with. They are rather skittish, but are getting a little braver. I stay with them while they are exploring and sniffing......lots of sniffing. :lol: Shadow was in their room alone and couldn't find the other kitties and I could hear her crying for them.  It just breaks my heart to think that she will be left after the others are picked up by the families. Two of the families want to come get the kittens later tomorrow. I stalled them off until at least tomorrow, but they are very excited to get the kittens.


So.....what do I do? This last caller (policeman) said he had had pets all his life and I would assume would not let the 2 yr old unintentionally hurt the kitten. I don't know how much a 2 yr. old can interact with a kitten, anyway.....perhaps the older children will have more contact that the baby. I have thoughltfully questioned the new families who are taking Socks and Misty and explained why I want to be sure they are going to homes that will give them good care, keep them as exclusively inside cats, get shots, etc. Both of the ladies who took Socks and Misty are big time cat lovers and had already bought toys, etc., anticipating the new kittens. Misty is going to one lady's mother, who is a widow. The daugher bought a $200 gift certificate at the vets for spaying, shots and any future vet visits, which was a great idea. I know Misty will get lots of attention and love from her new owner.....same with Socks new family.

I fear that Shadow, being a black kitty, rather than the mulit-color kitties, may be perceived as not be as desireable to a potential family. I totally disagree, but, I have got that impression in my conversations with some of the callers. I did put my web gallery address in the ad and several people looked at the web photos before they called, which showed the kitties in all their fun activities, which, I hope shows their personalities.

Sorry to ramble on......but, I guess my question is.... Should I wait, hoping for a better family candidate for Shadow, or do you think I am being too paranoid? Honestly, I don't think I could go thru this again. I have just gotten too attached to these babies..I just love them to death.... and I can't bear giving them up, but I just can't keep them.....  

Some good advice is desperately needed, ladies. 

Bobbi


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## bobbimcd

*Recent photos of babies*

I just remembered that I had promised to forward more recent photos of the kitties. Socks is a real "ham" in front of the camera.  His markings are so incredibly beautiful, I can only imagine how gorgeous he will be as an adult. Fortunately, both Misty and Socks new families have promised to email me photos of them.

Sammy, my first and oldest former feral has really taken a fancy to the babies and hangs out in their room to observe and interact with them. They have gotten used to him....passed the constant sniffing each other phase. Chloe and Buddy observe the kitties, but aren't interacting with them yet. And.... baby Angel... doesn't want anything to do with them. All she does is hiss if they come near her. Too bad she doesn't know they are her siblings.  ,she could be a great playmate with Shadow if she remains after Socks and Misty go to their new homes. 

Gotta run.... Anxiously waiting for some help with my problem.

Bobbi


Socks
http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/image/71384958

Misty
http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/image/71364968

Shadow
http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/image/71384679

Angel
http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/image/71403474 

Three mischieveous babies
http://www.pbase.com/bobbie2/image/71384955


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## Jeanie

Bobbi, everything depends on the parents. I had four children, and it seems as if someone was always dropping off a kitten, or my children would find a stray. I never had a problem, not even with the babies. I taught my babies (toddlers) to be gentle with the kitten. I called it a baby.

However, I think if you have a really bad feeling about this family, you won't feel right about it. Did the officer promise it would be an indoor cat, as you requested? Does he realize how rough 2 year olds can be, if not watched very carefully? Are you asking for a fee--to make sure he cares? I would prefer that he would come, but the man usually falls in love with the kittens _after_ they get to the home. He's more concerned about the children having a pet. 

Think it over, even pray about it, and go with your heart. I think black cats are one of the most beautiful cats. I had one since I got married. I told my fiance that when I got married I wanted a black cat and a collie. Good thing he is an animal lover! 

Let us know what you decide. Can you keep Shadow? I know you're having a hard time parting with the babies. It's difficult, but I'm glad you're getting such wonderful homes for them. It's obvious that you love them! :luv


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## bobbimcd

*Fantastic news about Shadow!*

First, thanks for responding so soon, Jeanie.

The really great news is that Socks new Mommy is taking Shadow, as well.  She called after I had written my post in the forum and I asked if she would consider taking Shadow so they wouldn't have to be separated. She is a real softy and after checking with her hustband, said they would take Shadow too, Of course, my breaking into sobs probably pulled on her heartstrings a little too. What a wuss I am, huh? I didn't have to do much a sales job convincing her that two kitties aren't any more trouble than one and they are great companions when the family is gone. She is in her late 20's with just one little boy, who's almost four, and both she and her husband are cat lovers, so I'm very confident that my little kitties will have a wonderful home. 

My poor husband witnessed my meltdown worrying about Shadow being alone and instead of going out to the golf course behind us to take advantage of the unusually warm temps to hit some golf balls, he came inside to console me and suggested that we give April (Socks and Shadow's new mommy) money to cover the cost of having Shadow spayed. Bless his :heart 

>>I think black cats are one of the most beautiful cats. I had one since I got married. I told my fiance that when I got married I wanted a black cat and a collie. Good thing he is an animal lover! >>

Well, I may be partial, as well, because Sammy and Buddy are black cats, but they are very affectionate and indeed, beautiful.

We will be picking up Mommy Kitty from the vet office in the morning and get her additional recuperation time from her surgery. Thank goodness they trimmed her dagger-like nails. 

After this experience, I can understand the evolution of the Cat Ladies that we read about so often in the newspapers, that have 250 cats. If I didn't have my husband to rein me in, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't have kept all three of them and I would have been well on my way. :lol: 

It will be great to get followups from the kitties families to know how they are doing and, hopefully, the joy they have added to their new families. In the weeks that we had them, they brought immeasurable joy to our lives....and we have Baby Angel. Our other kitties have totally accepted her and she is such a doll! 

Gotta run, but want to wish everyone Merry Christmas.

Bobbi


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## Nell

Its great to hear that Socks and Shadow will be going together, and to someone you know will be giving them a great home  Its so nice when you can keep siblings together because they do seem to provide the greatest playmates and companions for each other.

Glad to hear mom cat did well with her surgery too. Do keep us updated on how she's doing! What are your plans for her so far?

oh, and the pictures of the kittens are great! so cute!! :love2


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## bobbimcd

*Momma Kitty's future*

>>Glad to hear mom cat did well with her surgery too. Do keep us updated on how she's doing! What are your plans for her so far?>> 

Well, we will see how it goes when she returns home. Without the kitties, she may get real antsy to get out of the confinement of the room we have been keeping her and the kitties in.

Depending on what the doctor says about when she will be completely recuperated my plan is to allow her the freedom of the house and see if she is content with that.

May have been a slip of the tongue this afternoon when my husband was trying to comfort me about giving up the babies, he said we already have five cats, when, technically, we have four (not counting Momma)  

I really hate to release her to the outside cold temps if she really rebels to staying inside. I could live with her going out on decent weather days as long as she would return inside, but I don't know if she would do that. At least I know she won't be having more litters, but it must be a very lonely and hard life living alone in the elements. She was not in a colony....always was alone, while Floppy Kitty has been coming with a couple of her grown former litter mates. She has brought the one surving kitty once in awhile recently, but Floppy's older kitty gets in the house with the baby while they are waiting for me to bring out their food. You'd think Floppy would stay with the baby, but she doesn't. Of course, she is an ole lady, having had many litters, so she is more than happy to have one of the older kids babysit the little one.

I couldn't believe that my husband suggested this afternoon that we should try to capture Floppy's baby and bring her in to find a home for her. Amazing that he would suggest that, but, I'd never let him know that the thought had crossed my mind. :lol: This kitty is about 11 weeks old, but I wouldn't pretend that it would be as easy going socializing it as Momma Kitties babies were. It will be difficult to capture it because she/he is very terrified of humans and always leaves the deck the minute I start to open the slider. It is unpredictable when Floppy brings the baby. I don't know where she leaves her in her absence. She had two kitties when she brought them here several weeks ago, but something must have happened to one of them.  

I need a few days to regroup and do my long put off Christmas shopping and then think about what we can do about Floppy's baby. Momma Kitty's future is my top priority now.

I feel so fortunate that we did find wonderful homes for Momma's babies and, as my husband reminded me when I was so upset about giving them up, we achieved the goal to get those adorable babies out of the wild, get them healthy and find good homes for them. That's what it was all about.  


I'll keep you posted on Momma's progress and future.

I'm so glad to have all the photos of the kitties to look at to help remember the great memories of them. Aren't they just the cutest??  But what is cuter than a baby kitten? 

Bobbi

Bobbi


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## Jeanie

This is wonderful news--all around. I am so happy for little Shadow. I know it breaks your heart, but those littermates will have lots of love and each other. They *will* be happier! 

You are an angel married to an angel! :angel I hope Mother kitty stays! I know this is a very busy time, but the sooner Floppy's baby is socialized, the easier it wll be. You are a rare person, very kind to these cats, and I think it is a blessing to you and the animals! Keep posting. We want to know everything!


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