# Serious Behavior Issue (picture added)



## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

Sorry if I jump right in without all the proper introduction, but I'm really very concerned and hoping -praying- someone has an answer. Everything else has failed so far.

We have three male cats. The oldest is 6; he was neutered a little late in life by the Humane Society, around age 3, but has had no issues. The youngest was also neutered at the Humane Society, around 6 months. No issues. The middle was neutered around a year or so, and is a source of immense concern.

This is gonna be a little long.

The first visit I brought him in his carrier, sat him on the floor in the lobby between my legs while I filled out the paperwork. Stupid Humane Society doesn't have seperated lobbies and someone's uncontrollable dog landed in my lap. The kitten in the carrier was scared so bad the carrier jumped across the floor. When his time came to go to the back, he was too frightened to come out of his carrier.

Fast forward a week or so. Try 2. This time one of us sat in the car while the other waited inside. When his turn came, we covered his carrier with a blanket and took him straight to the back. The attending vet was a bit rough. I tried to take the cat out of the carrier, but she snagged the carrier from me and said "I'll do it!" and proceeded to reach for him. She snagged him by the scruff of the neck and was gone. I hesistated but figured he was already out of the bag, should be upfrom there.

Wrong. Hours later they call to advise he's hissing in the kennel and no one can get him out. I said can't you tranq him and just get this over with, he's terrified. No. Come get him. 

So I do.

The bring him in a freakin' cardboard box. His soft carrier opens all the way from the top to front, but they chose to put him in a box. He is yowling and carrying on. They drop him on the table. I demand to speak with their supervisor. The staff is curt, refuse to find a supervisor or vet, and I leave with my cat. As soon as I got him to the car, I said his name and stuck my hand over an air hole for the scent. He immediately began mewing and I held him on my lap the ride home (passenger side).

A few weeks go by. He's extremely aggitated. We hope it'll pass. 

He still needs fixed.

Getting him to the new vet office requires a lot of patience, cooing, and finally trapping into the carrier. He hisses at the new vet; she specializes in ferals and isn't taken back. She has to use cat gloves, net and instantly tranq him. We have her do all shots, nail clippings etc while he's out. He has not been back to the vet since.

Fast fwd over a year later. He is still a walking mess. He has been perfectly fine with the household people and the other cats. Problems begin when company comes over. It can be one or more people, people he already knows and had previously developed postive relationship with - but he begins hissing at them. Sometimes small swipes. The problem is, he approaches them -- even if they proceed to ignore him, he presses forward, ears back, yowling and hissing and swipes. He draws blood. Men, women, doesn't matter. Anyone.

Up to this point, a household person could simply say his name in a reprimanding tone or clap hands together. Sometimes just entering the room with him would send him to his polite corner or more often -- up to the legs of a household person. Up to this point, he would just want attention from a household person, proceed to roll on his back and do cute things to get a tummy rub.

I've sought other advice, from ignoring him or having just one guest gently touch a safe spot for him then stop before he starts hissing.

Until this week. Nothing has changed, but now when company comes over he is far more assertive with them. And saying his name, entering the room, hand clapping does nothing. Tonight, he began hissing at company staying over. I said his name and he began a deep horrible growl and began a crouch like he was gonna spring at me. The guests backed into the other room and cat continued to approach me very unabashed, growling. 

He had never growled before.

I had to wait for him to wander into the room with the litterbox and shut the door.

Within minutes he begins the pitiful "I'm sorry" meow.

What do we do with him??

We have had him his whole life and before the neutering fiasco he was absolutely loving to everyone.

Had I known, I'd rather steam clean carpet every night than be faced with this horrible situation of feeling like there's no option but euthanizing. I can't believe there's no other option.

Someone please tell me there is an answer.


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## faerymagic (Jul 25, 2006)

awww he is adorable :luv and that is sad about what is happening. I wish I had better advice to give you.


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

Thank you.

BTW - I just saw online that on occasion, neutering isn't 100%, ie, a testicle might not have been fully descended. Therefore, he's still developing hormones. Does his behavior sound like unneutered male cats? I've really only had one, Boo, that wasn't neutered young, and he didn't act that way but he's pretty weird anyway.

He was eventually neutered at a feral clinic. Maybe they botched??


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Hi, I'm not sure I'll be much help.
I don't think extra testosterone could be the source of his problem, though I think a blood test could let you know if his levels are normal for a neutered male or exceptionally high. I think he had a very bad experience the times you took him to the vet and he was traumatized by the way they handled him. It almost seems like 'misdirected aggression' but it is happening with every *new* person in his territory. I'm not sure how I'd go about fixing that. My usual response would be to socialize and desensitize him, but that almost seems dangerous to try with him when he reacts so aggressively. I'm also not sure I'd like to keep him medicated so he remains mellow all of the time.
Can you contact a behaviorist? Maybe they would be able to help more.
Best of luck to you and your kitty,
Heidi


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## Kobster (Feb 1, 2007)

This may not be the right answer, but this is what I would do. He is obviously greatly distressed when company comes over. I would put him, a litter box, water and a bed in a safe room away from the guest before they arrive and have him stay there until they leave. Its safer for the guests and it would be less traumatic for him. Yes he might not like being locked up, but I think that feeling pales in comparrison to the deep fear he is experiencing at the sight of strangers in his home.


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

He went full out at the other cats again, and making horrible noises at us. We had to get a kennel setup for him. He now looks very small and confused. Calling vet tomorrow.

This sucks.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I hope you get some answers. atback


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

So far the plan is have the vet do a blood test to rule out hormones. See if I can get a medication for the time being to chill him out. Keep the wire kennel and try a desensitizing method I found online, that says to keep them in a kennel, not too close to but not isolated from the stimulant. In small doses reward cat with treats while stimulant is in the area, but not directly involved. When he begins to ignore the guest and is comfortable eating the treat, move on to the guest attempting to give treats. From there we can try out of the kennel and eventually, months down the line, move onto gentle petting. He's too far shot at the moment to start with the petting desensitizing.

So, basically break it down into very very small steps based on his responses. I guess the worst thing you can do is back away when he starts his behavior. Unfortunately most of my guests wouldnt be willing to risk a limb (can't blame them) and so his behavior is being re-enforced. I do know someone that would be willing to help with this.

If anyone has any experience or comments on the plan of action, please let me know 

Everyone has been great for a new member jumping in with such a weird issue. Thanks, it's been a cr*ppy night so I appreciate all the sincerity. I can see on your posts you all love your furry children like we do ours.

I feel horrible for the cat, he's so confused by the whole scenario. His "brothers" are out comforting him now through the kennel and he's already stopped hissing at the kids when they walk by his kennel.

Months, but not impossible?

@kobster - that's a great short term solution, you are right, but it's not really practical long term with the house setup, company, etc. Another great worry of ours is we don't have children - yet. Some people say that he should be accustomed to any child that lives here full time -- but what if they're wrong? Obviously I'd never leave a child unsupervised even with a calm fat cat. But it's not realistic to expect to live with a dangerous cat and have children. Anyway, thanks for your reply - I agree with it short term, and have done it at times when he's over bearing.

@Heidi n Q - Thanks for the idea on blood test. I was wondering what they'd need to do to test for a botched job; a little frazzled at the moment, kept thinking xrays or god knows what. I will also ask them for a behaviorist recommendation.

_As a kitten, he'd run around in circles 'til he fell over, like this. . ._









_We think he might be a ninja cat in training. . ._









_ohlooksomethingshiney_


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## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

He really is a gorgeous kitty.

I read a book called The Cat Counsellor ...there were examples of cats behaving the way yours does and she wrote about how the issue is resolved...it was long ago, but might be worth trying to get hold of?


*edit* I have found it, hope its ok to link Amazon?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Counsellor- ... 522&sr=1-3


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

That looks like a great book - I'll order it. Thanks!


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Wow! What an awful story. Poor kitty! Poor you!
It really does sound to me like he was extremely traumatized by the vet and is now afraid of all "intruders". A form of redirected aggression? But to go on this long? Yikes!
I wish I had a good suggestion but mostly I just wanted to wish you both the best of luck and I hope he will come around. My only thought was the same as Kobster's, to simply put him in another room when company comes. But I realize, long term, that may not be plausible if he doesn't get over it in time. After a full check up (by a really good, gentle vet!) I think a good behaviorist would be my next step. I hope the book gives you some answers and help. 
God luck!


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

Thanks nanook.

He spent the night in the kennel, which was really sad though it was large and has everything he needs. He's not use to being caged, so whined the whole night for me to hold his paw. How heartbreaking is that?! Jeez. Company left in the morning and he's been let out. Nose kisses to all. A week or two of down time is probably in order before starting the desensitizing.

Something else I didn't mention is he gained a lot of weight very suddenly. He went from being slim and slinky to having a major fat bulge, he's actually kinda round now. This has been in the last couple of months. He has no changes in his eating or litterbox habits. I'm thinking it's a stress thing though there's no new real stressors.


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## faerymagic (Jul 25, 2006)

rainysparadigm said:


> Unfortunately most of my guests wouldnt be willing to risk a limb (can't blame them) and so his behavior is being re-enforced.


I know this doesn't help you any, but if you were my friend I'd help! He is so adorable :luv


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

lmao thanks though  btw, love the signature, I always tell people that about cats hahaha...they never forgot.


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## droogie (May 15, 2009)

I notice when pets misbehave many people point to something that forces the animal to misbehave. Earlier in this thread there was a comment about a vet must have done something traumatic so therefore the cats acts up when company arrives. Well, maybe the cat is just psycho and there really isn't anything you can do for him/her? Some people commit crimes because they have a screw loose I suspect that screw can be loose in any animal. I know we get attached to our pets but in this particular situation the cat is possibly endangering others, if something does change soon I can think of only one alternative.


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

While I agree with you entirely, even though I love my cat, I find it a strange coindence in this case that he was perfectly fine even with the same company in the same enviroment for a year, and began acting hysterical only after returning from the vet.


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## droogie (May 15, 2009)

That is strange, we know so little about the mind. While the cause is good to know, the effect is what you are dealing with. I can only imagine being afraid of my cat, I know it has to be hard on you.


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

They did -drop- the box on the counter when they returned him to me, for instance. I've no doubt in my mind they are the cause. But how to deal, yes. Now that company is gone, he's fine around us again. He has a vet appt now to get a mild sedative, and I'll start working on kennel based desensitizing. Make no mistake, I love my animal but I'm also aware that he is an animal capable of serious harm. We've already considered that his fate might be sealed. At this point in time though, he will be kenneled while guests are over until he's proven himself with a few different people as individuals, then collective. It may be years before I give him the benefit of the doubt again, but I think we are also obligated to not give up -too- easily.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

You mentioned that he had suddenly gained weight...I would see if they could run a thyroid panel while you were at the vet. Some signs of thyroid disorder are sudden weight gains, laziness, slow hair growth, and over grooming. 
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/hypothyroidism.html

I agree with locking him up when you have company, but I wouldn't keep him in a crate where he could see the company at all. Esp kids. (who may tease/try to play with him while unsupervised). I would put him in a safe area away from the company. I have had to do this. My oldest kitty, Jitzu, does not like guests. She never has. She's gotten better lately with lots of work from me. And lots of directions from me to my guests. I don't let anyone touch her when I'm not there, I don't allow guests to move towards her if she's looking uncomfortable, and if I can't control the situation (ie: too many guests to control) I take her out of the situation completely.

This isn't mean, in fact it will help your kitty. Don't force them into a confrontation when you know it could go poorly.

Something you may not realize is that your guests may be unintentionally winding the kitty up. In cats one of the most aggressive signs they can give is to stare. 9:10 people who see a new cat stare at it. If your kitty responds by hissing/swatting it now has the attention of everyone in the room, who is staring at it. To him they are threatening.

Try having *one* calm person come over. You need to act like it's no big deal, they need to completely ignore the cat. Don't look at him, don't say anything to him. Nothing. Take them to a common sitting area and chill out. It's important that you stay calm. If you are stressed out or anxious then your cat will pick up on that.

Sprinkle some yummy treats throughout the room, and let kitty to whatever he wants.

Personally I use timeouts for bad behavior. If any of my cats shows any signs of aggression towards a guest they get a time out. Since your cat isn't a fan of kennels I would use a big one, or a bathroom. Do not put in a toy/food bowl/litterbox. Timeouts should be just until the cat has calmed down, no longer than 10 minutes generally. Also, don't let the kitty out when he cries. Make a point of waiting until he's quiet, then open the door.

So if he shows any signs of aggression calmly walk over, pick him up, and put him in time out. No attention at all. If you feel unsafe doing this wear thick clothes and gloves. Don't hesitate when you go to pick him up, just do it. I've found with Jitzu and with feral cats I've worked with that they get more aggressive if you hesitate. So just act like it's no biggie, and do it.

Keep in mind that it is your job to make sure your guests know how to behave around this cat. I tell everyone new to my house not to approach Jitzu, and not to pet her even if she approaches them. That's my responsibility. She needs to know that random people aren't going to suddenly muss her fur, pet her, or generally get in her personal space.

Using these tricks I have gotten Jitzu to the point where she's much better. We had 5 people over last night, and she didn't scratch a single one. To me, that's a victory. I didn't lock her up, I had to warn her a few times, and I'm constantly picking her off people's laps (she uses them as stepping stools...*sighs*), but no blood and no angry hisses. To get her to that point has taken me 3 years. It can be done, but it's not easy.

In your favor you have the fact that he already trusts you. I had to gain Jitzu's trust. That took me the first year.

*Good luck, it can be done!* I absolutely would not give up on your kitty!

*note* make a point of leaving the travel kennels out where they can be used as napping spots. This has helped Jitzu so much with vet visits. I used to have to sedate her to get her in a kennel, now I just pick her up and do it. No fuss from her. Admittedly only me and my SO can do that, but that's a step. So make the kennel a safe place...you can even put a food bowl in there. And ignore them when they go in it...they'll feel safer.


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## Mom of 4 (Jul 29, 2006)

Our crates are always out. The cat sleep in them in the winter for extra warmth and on top of them the rest of the year. No big deal when they go in them for a trip to the vet or elsewhere.


The medication should make the desensitization go easier. Th hardest part is to not go too fast and have to back up a couple of steps. My experience is with autistic kids and some dogs, no cats. You've gotten some great suggestions on here.

Good luck.


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## faerymagic (Jul 25, 2006)

Just like humans, cats can learn from experience. Just because the kitty has gone "psycho" does not mean there is NO reason behind it. Just because it makes sense to us doesn't mean it makes sense to the kitty. The mind is a mysterious, yet complicated thing.


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

Well he's back to his bouncey loving self now that it's been two days without company. Peace restored to the household. For now. But I'm encouraged that this is really just a fear based reaction and something he can unlearn. He's still young and it's a relatively new condition, not like retraining a long time feral. It's true, he has more trust in us and we can use it to our advantage.

I'll update progress. 

Thanks to everyone


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## faerymagic (Jul 25, 2006)

Such a handsome boy, I think there is still potential


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

WELL! It's been a long while but I thought for the kind replies I had received, I'd give a courtesy update. Zonka didn't do well with any sort of training, desensitizing, isolation, or handling. He even became very aggressive toward the other two cat, and in turn started to put them on edge. 

It was pretty much snowballing until:

Pheromones.

Believe it or not, I just got a giant bottle of spray "calming cat pheromones" the ones based from feline facial pheromones and I simply spray the common area with it every evening, then spray some on my hands and rub the back of his head and under his chin. It takes maybe a minute of my time, and Zonka loves everyone again lol Strangers can even touch his feet O.O

After a few months of steady application, I'll try seeing if using it in the kennel and car will help get him to the vet. I'm sure this won't be the end all miracle cure and I'll probably never let him roam the house when there's a large amount of children or active people, for example, but he's been fine with the evening guest and has begun playing nicely with the other two cats again.

Supposedly you can lower usage to as needed basis, but I'll compromise on a quick spray around the house to have my kitten back 

For those who read this and have similar problems/use for the spray: I spray the couches, area rug, scratch post and the couch (aka fur) blanket. Then, like I said, spray a little on my hands and just rub across the back of his head and under his face/chin and neck area. It doesn't have any distinguishable odor, no color and doesn't seem to have any adverse effects on any of the fabrics (including the Persian rug). It's ridiculously cheap too. ($10 for a bottle I haven't made a dent in yet.)

So there you go. Happy ending


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Fabulous news! It's amazing how many people don't think Feliway helps--often the results are less dramatic than this (just a general "chilling" effect) but sometimes they are WOW!

For anyone interested, the product in question here is Feliway:

http://www.feliway.com/us

Where in the WORLD did you get it for $10??? It's usually more like $30 (and well worth it, esp. as it lasts forever). It's available in the spray (which I prefer) and an infuser that plugs into a wall outlet.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

hoofmaiden said:


> Where in the WORLD did you get it for $10??? It's usually more like $30 (and well worth it, esp. as it lasts forever). It's available in the spray (which I prefer) and an infuser that plugs into a wall outlet.


There are other brands of "kitty calm" sprays. Feliway is just one of the most popular ones. I have a pump spray that works pretty well that I picked up for $10 at PetSmart. I don't remember off hand what the brand is called though.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Comfort Zone? It contains Feliway. I've seen it at PetStupid--perhaps that's it? I got it this last time (Jonah's intro) b/c I needed it ASAP and it's seemed to help, but I suspect it of being watered down and prefer to use the real thing.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

I think it is NaturVet "At Ease" Spray that I have.
http://www.amazon.com/NaturVet-At-E...?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1258126645&sr=8-11
It seems to work for me


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Hadn't seen that one.  Glad it's working! I think Feliway has the most science behind it, since it was the first one, but I'm sure other companies are reverse-engineering now to get their own products and they may work just as well.


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## Momto3boys (Nov 10, 2009)

Goodness, I just read through both pages and all I can say is you have one lucky kitty :luv most people would have given up...

He is gorgeous and you are an amazing cat owner!! Im glad you finally found something that worked :mrgreen:


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## doublemom (Feb 17, 2008)

Wow.. I just read through this post for the first time and your kitty is one very lucky feline for having such wonderful humans who love him so much. Sooo many people would have never had the patience to go through what you did. I'm so partial to black male kitteh's, and yours looks a lot like our little Monkey  

I hope things are going much better for your family how, humans and kitteh's included. Thank you for trying so hard to do the right thing, wish there were more people like that out there...

Here's a happy for you from our two black male cats, Jet and Monkey:









Andi


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## rainysparadigm (May 18, 2009)

Thanks for all the positive posts, everyone here is always so nice  

This spray is "Pet Organics No-Stress Behavior Modification Spray". It is 16 oz and I paid around $10 at PetCo. They did have a selection, including the infusers but this one seemed to be more targeted at these specific behavior issues ("Reduces anxiety, unfriendliness, scratching and nervousness"). I'm sure in the end they are all pretty much the same deal. Some of the active ingredients are Rosemary and Clove Oil. I've never used anything like this before but it seems to be just enough to take the edge off so that he's less scittery. And when he's less scittery, he's busy loving on all the furniture and people, etc. Seems to break the cycle. I'm sure he'll be overwhelmed if too many people tried to handle him or something but for day to day, I'm very pleased. In all this he's also started to bond with my sister who has talked of taking him on herself when SO and I decide to have children if he seems too stressed with the new addition(s). So I have to agree, for a black cat, he's got some pretty good luck 

//

PS - Jet and Monkey are beautiful!


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

rainysparadigm said:


> This spray is "Pet Organics No-Stress Behavior Modification Spray". It is 16 oz and I paid around $10 at PetCo. They did have a selection, including the infusers but this one seemed to be more targeted at these specific behavior issues ("Reduces anxiety, unfriendliness, scratching and nervousness"). I'm sure in the end they are all pretty much the same deal. Some of the active ingredients are Rosemary and Clove Oil.


Huh. Well, that does NOT contain any of the pheromones that Feliway/Comfort Zone do. It's strictly herbal. 

http://www.petco.com/product/106276/Pet ... Spray.aspx

Glad it helped (and surprised it did, honestly!).


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