# Not really a "feral" cat question, but semi-relate



## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

I am asking the members for some general guidance and comment on this, I realize its not exactly feral related.

In a previous post I described how (I suspect) a neighbor killed a abandoned (not feral) cat myself and a few other neighbors were caring for here at my apartment complex. We found that the person we suspect had been arrested three times previously for animal cruelty. Since that time (March 21, 2007) three other cats have disappeared without a trace, two of them owned cats (who never had collars or tags) and one stray. All lived or hung out in the same area where mine lived, which is nearby where this person parks his car and lives.

Myself and a neighbor have teamed up and distributed flyers about the initial killing and to warn residents to tag/collar their cats and to keep them inside as much as possible and we pointed out the danger. There is still one cat left who likes to live and play in this area, he is a affectionate kitty who is very trusting and friendly, which in this case makes me very afraid for his welfare as you all might imagine. This cat is owned, and I have on three occasions pleaded with the owner to put some kind of collar on her kitty, even one without a tag would be better than nothing, to indicate that he is NOT a stray. However she either wont or cant do this, apparently. 

Im not sure what else I can do, and I guess Im just asking if I should keep after this owner to put a collar on her cat, I just love him and am so afraid for his safety. On the other hand I keep thinking he's NOT my responsibility so I shouldnt even be involved in this way. Any thoughts? Id greatly appreciate them. 

Thanks.


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## AddFran (Jul 10, 2004)

I feel your pain, I am torn between having neighboring cats neutered that seem to be impregating strays. (As I am currently caring for a litter of 5 orpaned kittens right now!) 

If it would make you feel better for the kitty to have a collar, why not put one on him? No harm in doing that. Do you think it will make a difference?


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

AddFran said:


> If it would make you feel better for the kitty to have a collar, why not put one on him? No harm in doing that. Do you think it will make a difference?



I would feel better indeed, but like I said its not my cat and I dont feel I can do that morally or ethically if the cat isnt mine. But I think it would "protect" him from a predator who just wants to kill every stray or feral he sees. Im pretty sure he wont harm a cat who clearly belongs to someone.


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## AddFran (Jul 10, 2004)

I understand he's not your cat, but if you truly think it would save his life, I think it is morally acceptable. I was also going to suggest that you tell the neighbors why you are doing it, or bring it over to them and ask them to put a collar on him while you are offering to GIVE them one. Maybe they are too lazy or don't care enough to go to the store, but if you give them one, they willb e put on the spot and more inclined to do it. Or just say, hey, I am still really worried about your cat, next time he mosey's over to my place, I'm going to put a collar on him. I don't want you to think I'm tryign to steal your cat, just want him to be safe, etc....


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

nancyinseattle said:


> Im pretty sure he wont harm a cat who clearly belongs to someone.


Please don't believe this for a moment. He will only get worse.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

You're really on the horns, aren't you?
On one horn, if you put the collar on yourself, you have infringed on the property of another and may anger them. On the other horn, if you approach them and give them a collar to put on their kitty, they may become offended at the charity, refuse to accept it and still be angry.
Which horn seems less painful to you?
Myself, I'd buy a cheap (cute) collar and bring it to the people, again with a flyer. Explain your fears and leave the collar with them to decide what they'd like to do with it.
After that, it really is out of your hands.


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## AddFran (Jul 10, 2004)

Heidi n Q said:


> Myself, I'd buy a cheap (cute) collar and bring it to the people, again with a flyer. Explain your fears and leave the collar with them to decide what they'd like to do with it.
> After that, it really is out of your hands.


I think so too.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

marie73 said:


> nancyinseattle said:
> 
> 
> > Im pretty sure he wont harm a cat who clearly belongs to someone.
> ...



Its not that I believe it, because youre right. But theres nothing else any of us who are stuck with living next to him can do about it (unless he's stupid enough to kill or maim a cat in front of witnesses), so I choose to be optimistic.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Heidi n Q said:


> You're really on the horns, aren't you?
> On one horn, if you put the collar on yourself, you have infringed on the property of another and may anger them. On the other horn, if you approach them and give them a collar to put on their kitty, they may become offended at the charity, refuse to accept it and still be angry.
> Which horn seems less painful to you?
> Myself, I'd buy a cheap (cute) collar and bring it to the people, again with a flyer. Explain your fears and leave the collar with them to decide what they'd like to do with it.
> After that, it really is out of your hands.



When I suggested it the first time she seemed noncommittal, but the 2nd time she was curt with a "No, he wont keep it on" and so I left it at that. The 3rd time it was "Didnt you hear what I said the last time"? 

Which brings up another point, it very well may be that she has tried to put a collar on and has not been successful, in which case it truly is out of my and anyone elses hands.

I do believe that your suggestion about giving her the collar is a good one though. I may yet do that.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Nancy, what an awkward situation, awkward and dangerous. However, I'd bite the bullet and put a collar and ID tag on the kitty with a little note attached, explaining that you're fond of the cat and wanted to give her a little gift. Also, emphasize what good people they are, in comparison with the monster who's been killing stray cats. Good luck.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Jeanie said:


> ...I'd bite the bullet and put a collar and ID tag on the kitty with a little note attached, explaining that you're fond of the cat and wanted to give her a little gift. Also, emphasize what good people they are, in comparison with the monster who's been killing stray cats.


What?! I really do NOT think this is the way to approach this matter. 

Nancy just stated the cat owner was:
1st: noncommittal
2nd: curt
3rd: just plain rude with a "didn't you hear me the first time?"

Exactly what response do you think Nancy will get by putting a collar and a syrupy sweet note on this person's cat? I don't think doing that is a good idea at all. I can plainly see the cat owner is getting peeved at being 'advised' on how to keep her cat. If someone puts something ON the cat that the owner did not want to do herself, I can see her getting very snarky (at minimum) and nasty (at worst).

Nancy, please don't put anything on the kitty. Give her the flyer and a cheap collar and leave it be. You will have done the best you possibly could for someone else's kitty.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Heidi n Q said:


> Jeanie said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'd bite the bullet and put a collar and ID tag on the kitty with a little note attached, explaining that you're fond of the cat and wanted to give her a little gift. Also, emphasize what good people they are, in comparison with the monster who's been killing stray cats.
> ...




Jeanie and Heidi, I really thank you both, youre both giving your own opinions which are a lot more reasoned than any I could come up with. I have already given her the flyer and may now try leaving a collar in a envelope on her windshield some night with a anonymous note saying basically "Cats without collars here are disappearing under mysterious circumstances. I dont want your lovely kitty to be one of them. Signed, a neighbor who thinks the world of your cat". 

Hows that? Think it might work?


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I think that's lovely. She'll probably know who it's from, but it's a nice note and thoughful of you.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I think that would be a great way to avoid a possible confrontation with this cat owner. She won't know for certain (unless you tell her) and she can accept or decline as she wishes.
Still, you've done all you can for your complex's kitties...and that is commendable.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm sorry if my "syrupy" suggestion seemed insincere, in comparison with the others who suggested that she buy the cat a collar. If the people had difficulty putting a collar on the cat, as surmised, it would solve that problem. I am not an insincere person. That man is a monster, and these people care about their cat. That's fact. Sometimes a sincere note is easier to accept that a face to face suggestion..which catches people off guard. Who knows what will work? 

Nancy, it's quite a problem. We can only throw ideas around for you. You will make the decision. But if these people resented your suggestions, they might not refuse a gift and an explanation. The note could be a copy of the flyer...with a few personal remarks. Perhaps none of these ideas will work; all you can do is try what you think best. 

Sometimes we do our best and still meet with criticism or denial. I hope that doesn't happen. Please keep us informed.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I didn't think your suggestion wasn't sincere, I am certain it was. I just didn't feel the cat owner would appreciate it at all, having gone from disinterested to short to bluntly rude, and it could cause some serious problems for Nancy if she ignored the warning-signs from the cat owner.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I understand "rude." I have had to deal with people like that, and still do. This is not a simple problem. The important thing is the cat and the possibility of Nancy preventing its death.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Jeanie said:


> The important thing is the cat and the possibility of Nancy preventing its death.


You are so right, and I hope the cat owner consents to placing the collar on her kitty. Actually, I wish she'd just keep him inside!


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Heidi n Q said:


> Jeanie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I wish she'd just keep him inside!




Wish she would too, that would really solve everything. Marie, Jeanie and Heidi I again thank you for all your help. I am vacillating between approaching her in person or leaving the note and collar now, i may have given the impression that this young lady is/was rude and I honestly never felt that way. She is very nice and intelligent and shed tears with me when my cat was murdered. Actually it was when that happened that I first broached the subject of what might happen to her own two cats (now one) and that I didnt want that to happen to hers. 

By the way, the reason shes down to one cat now was because the other one was hit by a car in the street out in front of our complex, not due to any foul play. 

I will keep you all posted...


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

nancyinseattle said:


> the reason shes down to one cat now was because the other one was hit by a car in the street out in front of our complex...


  Yet another reason why I wish she'd keep the kitty indoors. 
If she's friendly enough, I'd probably speak briefly with her and just hand her the envelope as I left. Good luck with however you decide to approach her, you need to do what is comfortable for you.


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

I'm a lot more of a vigilante than the rest of you. If the cat is truly in danger, which it sounds like he is, and the owner cares that little, I think you would be on solid moral ground spiriting him out of there and finding him a new home. Whatever her intentions, leaving her cat out to roam in these circumstances is blatant neglect. :evil: 

But I realize that you probably don't want to do that, and that it could have unhappy repercussions for you if you did. This sounds like an agonizing situation. I can only echo what everyone else has said about the two collar-gift options. 

Here's one more thought: what are the laws about roaming cats where you live? Where I live, there's a leash law for cats, and letting one roam freely is illegal, even with a collar and tag. It's a stupid law that everyone ignores -- unless a neighbor complains to Animal Control, at which point someone will come out and give you a lecture. They don't seize your cat or anything, and you're generally free to keep breaking the law after that. At worst, if there are repeated complaints, you might be fined.

If you have anything like a similar law in place, maybe you could consider giving Animal Control an anonymous tip. Maybe a lecture from an offical source would scare her into keeping the cat indoors. These are a lot of "ifs," and you may not want to do anything like this in any case, but I thought I would bring it up, just in case it would be helpful.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Jet Green said:


> I'm a lot more of a vigilante than the rest of you. If the cat is truly in danger, which it sounds like he is, and the owner cares that little, I think you would be on solid moral ground spiriting him out of there and finding him a new home. Whatever her intentions, leaving her cat out to roam in these circumstances is blatant neglect. :evil:
> 
> But I realize that you probably don't want to do that, and that it could have unhappy repercussions for you if you did. This sounds like an agonizing situation. I can only echo what everyone else has said about the two collar-gift options.
> 
> ...



Where I live, is in a condominium complex. The homeowners association rules as presently written dont say anything about cats, except that all should be tagged/collared and they should be registered with the association office. However its purely voluntary since theres no mechanism to allow the association to have any recourse against cat owners who fail to abide. On the other hand dogs are required to be on leashes at all times when outside the owners residence. Dogs are also required to be picked up after as far as waste goes and are restricted as to weight. (Dogs can weigh a maximum 30 lbs). 

Our county has no leash laws regarding cats. I believe I read that the county animal control considers cats to be wild animals for the purpose of county rules and regulations. 

I do appreciate your suggestion about taking the cat away to a safe haven, because I do very much believe he's in danger as you say. However I couldnt, morally or otherwise do that to the owner whom I like. I may not agree with how shes keeping her cat, but other than tactfully suggest alternatives I feel my hands are tied.


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

I understand. I hope that she will come to recognize the danger of what she's doing on her own. People just seem to think it will never happen to them -- but I really really hope it doesn't in this case.  

Thank you for doing so much to look out for the cats, even when their owners won't.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

*A compassionate God....*

....sometimes I have to wonder if there really is one. Especially after encountering the jerk I suspect of killing my cat in the condo complex, while passing each other on a pathway he smirked and said in a snide voice: "Guess theres less cats to worry about these days, huh?"

Would a truly compassionate God create beings such as this? It was all I could do to keep a straight face and keep walking without pause.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I don't think he was listening to God when he did such a heinous act.  What a horrible thing he said to you! He's cruel. I would tell my neighbor what he said. He must take joy in killing. Would you consider calling and reporting that conversation and the rest of this incident to Animal Control?


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

He would just say he was commenting on the fliers he saw posted. :?


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

marie73 said:


> He would just say he was commenting on the fliers he saw posted. :?



Marie is exactly right


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Poo! Report him and his comment to the authorities anyways. 
IF he does something he must be investigated for, this will count against him. In addition, if they come to question him, he will KNOW they (and others) are 'watching' him.


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

Heidi n Q said:


> Poo! Report him and his comment to the authorities anyways.
> IF he does something he must be investigated for, this will count against him. In addition, if they come to question him, he will KNOW they (and others) are 'watching' him.


Agreed. I would definitely report your suspicions to Animal Control. That way it will be on record.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Jet Green said:


> [quote="Heidi n Q":1vgnw7no]Poo! Report him and his comment to the authorities anyways.
> IF he does something he must be investigated for, this will count against him. In addition, if they come to question him, he will KNOW they (and others) are 'watching' him.


Agreed. I would definitely report your suspicions to Animal Control. That way it will be on record.[/quote:1vgnw7no]



Actually, I already tried, on Friday. They wouldnt even take my name *OR* his *OR* his comment. Quote: "_We dont have any proof he even committed a crime, or even if we did which cat or cats would he be referring to?_"

Im back to feeling hopeless and frustrated, but mainly sad at how evil some humans can be.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Ooooh! That makes ME feel so frustrated...I can only imagine how YOU feel!
They wouldn't even take an information report? How about Animal Control? Gah!


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Heidi n Q said:


> Ooooh! That makes ME feel so frustrated...I can only imagine how YOU feel!
> They wouldn't even take an information report? How about Animal Control? Gah!




Nothing. The person was sympathetic and seemed geniunely concerned, but read me word for word from the department policy about accusations of animal cruelty and what they can legally do. Theyre not permitted to take a information report when theres no pending or previous report about animal cruelty to begin with.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Nancy said:


> Theyre not permitted to take a information report when theres no pending or previous report about animal cruelty to begin with.


 :?: 
They're not making sense. If there has to be a previous report, they should consider your report as the first, at least. And I believe they should notify him that there is a report on file. Otherwise, no report would count. Someone's report has to be on file, or this could go on indefinitely!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Argh. I can understand that. I don't like it, but I understand the policy. Maybe you could document it yourself (date/time/who/what-said) and keep it handy that you had _tried_ to report this possible threat from a convicted animal abuser in case the information does become needed. 
I hope it is never needed.

When you see him, point your finger at him to get his attention and grin/wink and not say a word to him. It will make him wonder what you know...


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

Heidi n Q said:


> When you see him, point your finger at him to get his attention and grin/wink and not say a word to him. It will make him wonder what you know...


This reminds me of a friend who used to live in a neighborhood that had prostitutes. The neighborhood watch group would take walks, and when they'd see one, they'd all point and yell, "LOOK, THERE'S A PROSTITUTE!" The idea was to shine as much of a spotlight on the activity as possible, in hopes of intimidating them into stopping. 

I don't think you can go around pointing and shouting "LOOK, THERE'S A CAT MURDERER" without getting sued for slander or at least in trouble with your condo board. But maybe if you had multiple neighbors staring, pointing and whispering to each other, it would make him afraid: People know! I wouldn't grin or wink, though.

Of course, you might be doing this anyway. And certainly with the flyers, he knows that someone knows. But maybe some additional ostracism would help?


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

What the person said, and I agree whole heartedly with, is that if there were a "Megans Law" regarding animal abusers then my information report would have some relevance. Remember the thing that started my initial post back in March was that a *abandoned* cat I was caring for was killed, allegedly by this person in question, but no witnesses of course and I wasnt the owner in any case. I was told then and it still holds true today, that no one at animal control or law enforcement in this area considers what happened to my abandoned cat to be any sort of reportable or prosecutable crime, as sad as that is. Where theres no owner, theres no crime when it comes to cruelty UNLESS a witness steps forward whos willing to prosecute. And this witness has to be able to physically ID the attacker as well as been present at the scene and time of the crime. How often does that happen? 

If there were a Megans Law for animal abusers, thered be a database with animal cruelty offenders that would be searchable by the public and my information report *perhaps* could be added.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

So unfortunate!


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

nancyinseattle said:


> If there were a Megans Law for animal abusers, thered be a database with animal cruelty offenders that would be searchable by the public and my information report *perhaps* could be added.


Man, would this ever be a good idea! I'd certainly like to know if there are any in my neighborhood. Who wouldn't? If not just for the animals, don't serial killers often get their start this way? :x


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

OK wait...it just occurred to me to Google, and look what I found:

http://www.inhumane.org/

http://www.pet-abuse.com/

It's a start... 

Edited to add: Warning, graphic and demoralizing content.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Jet Green said:


> OK wait...it just occurred to me to Google, and look what I found:
> 
> http://www.inhumane.org/
> 
> ...




Sure is a start, thanks for looking that up. Ive heard of the 2nd one actually, and unfortunately I dont have 1/10th of the information they require to submit a case for inclusion. 

I guess in a ideal world the data base would be run by the US Justice Department and administered by the Attorney General. therefore making it a federal law enforcement tool.


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

*Some good news, hopefully*

This morning I had a talk with the owner of the kitty I am concerned about in this post. She verified that she has accepted a promotion with her company that will mandate a move to a state in the eastern US. She is of course taking little BoBo with her so this means I only have to worry about his safety for about 30 more days.

Please, keep him in your thoughts as I try to watch over him for the next few weeks. Thank you.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Good! But, he'll probably keep killing other cats, the monster!


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## nancyinseattle (Mar 28, 2007)

Jeanie said:


> Good! But, he'll probably keep killing other cats, the monster!




Well, thats true Jeanie, but theres not a lot I can do about him, other than dream about what Id *like* to do. Im just hopeful that this one kitty will live long enough to escape this environment with his life.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

I know, Nancy, and I can imagine what your frustration level must be!


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