# Abby Kitten Health Issues



## Abby Dad

Some background: Ruddy male born June 2010. Bred by one of the US' top Abby breeders. We hand-picked this kitten, as a three-month old, from one of several litters that the breeder had at that time. The kitten is the only feline in the household of an elderly couple. Breeder said that the kitten had been vet-checked and had the appropriate shots. Kitten weighed 2.3 lbs (1.0kg) at purchase and now weighs 5.5 lbs (2.5kg) at the age of eight months. Since the beginning with us, he has been fed wet food only - mostly organic and all of it premium, no-grain brands. No obvious health issues initially and the kitten was presented to one of the premier animal health facilities for baseline exam and shots just under three months after purchase. No issues found and fecals came back negative. A week later, what had been an occasional loose stool became more obvious and I was certain that he had TF (Tritrichomonas foetus). The vet at the mentioned health facility declined to write a script for ronidazole without his own diagnosis so an office visit and a PCR test later, and my diagnosis was confirmed. The 30mg/kg dose was given and appeared successful. After the ronidazole treatment, the kitten was neutered (same facility) last week and a different vet confirmed loose patellas on both sides, both medially and laterally. Further, he also confirmed poor peripheral vision (especially to the left side). Prior to the neutering, the kitten had once loose bowel movement. Today he had another and the attending odor took me right back to his TF days. From a friend of the breeder, I learned this week that the litter mate that also had our attention has since died but we have no more information than that. One of the other kittens (different litter) but one that we saw at the time of our purchase was found to have only one testicle and one kidney but early on had a significant knee issue which continues. I also learned that one of the kitten's parents is PRA and PK defiency negative. My question to the wealth of knowledge here is what does these two, recent episodes of pudding-like stool suggest? Any thoughts on the peripheral vision deficiency? Thank you for making it through this lengthy piece!


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## catloverami

How very very disappointing you must be with the problems you are having with this Abby kitty when you have done everything right as far as vet care and feeding. I have not had any experience with loose patellas, but it does sound like the breeder definitely has a hereditary problem with her cats. As far as PRA is concerned, this is what I've found:

*Progressive retinal atrophy (PRA) *

PRA describes an inherited ophthalmic condition leading ultimately to irreversible blindness. The underlying pathology is of rod and cone photoreceptor dysplasia and/or degeneration. Usually the rod photoreceptors are affected first, leading to night blindness as an early sign. In time, the cone photoreceptors also become involved, so that ultimately total blindness ensues. Two forms of PRA have been described in the Abyssinian breed: autosomal dominant retinal dystrophy (Rdy) and autosomal recessive rod-cone degeneration (rdAC):

Rdy is a rare, early onset, autosomal dominant condition. Mydriasis (dilated pupils) and intermittent nystagmus (rapid sideways movement of the eyes) are apparent from as early as 4 weeks of age. Ophthalmoscopic examination (looking at the retina at the back of the eyes) reveals signs of retinal degeneration from 8-12 weeks of age, and affected cats are usually blind by 1 year of age. 

Rod-cone degeneration (rdAC) is the more common type of PRA in this breed. It is recessively inherited, and affected cats begin to show signs of disease at around 1.5 to 2 years of age. Night blindness progresses to total blindness over a period of 2 to 4 years. 
Many breeders in this country and abroad have been testing for one genetic form of PRA through the lab at UC Davi. More info:
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cat/pra.php


I've not had any cats come down with *TF*, but here is some information, with a *caution* about _*Ronidazole.*_

Tritrichomonas foetus infection


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## catloverami

Did you get a health guarantee with your cat, that it could be returned for money or kitten back? With so many problems, if I were in your shoes I would return the kitty. It might give a wake-up call to this breeder. Even tho it is many months now that you've had the kitten, a good breeder would take the kitten back.


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## Abby Dad

A couple of points that should've been in my original post: (1) Since ending the course of ronidazole, the kitten has had a half packet/daily of the Purina probiotic product to jump start the flora in his gut. (2) With this morning's bowel movement (the second soft one since finishing the ronidazole) was some small amount of bright blood. I hasten to point out that this blood was often present with the pudding-like prior to the TF diagnosis.

catloverami: 

In my reading about PRA, I saw nothing that suggested that peripheral vision might be a symptom. 

There was no guarantee with this $1000 kitten. We've bonded with the kitten and there is no turning our backs on him now.

The unnamed facility mentioned in my original post is Boston's Angell Memorial.


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## catloverami

Yes, it's very difficult to give up a kitten once you've bonded, and I'm sure it's a beautiful very sweet kitty. I've always admired Aby's their exquisite beauty. 

Have you mentioned the blood in the stool with your vet? I would be concerned with anaemia if kitty continues to have blood in the stool. I wish you all the best with kitty. Good luck!


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## Sol

I'm so sorry to hear about your sick kitten. The first warning sign I saw in your post was the kitten's weight at 3 months. A healthy 3 month old kitten should weigh more than 1 kg. I'd suspect this kitten has had problems since before it moved.

Did your vet check for anything else than TF? I know giardia can be hard to catch in a stool sample, it can take many tests until you find it. Maybe you should follow up woth stool samples regularly. "Chronic" bowel prooblems are often caused by giardia, TF and/or coccidosis. Stool samples can easily be done by the owner and it doesn't cause the kitten any discomfort so I'd really recommend you to follow up with stool samples on a regular basis.

If the kitten has had bowel problems since its time at the breeder it's possible it's had problems to absorb nutrition from the food so it might actually have some kind of nutrient deficiencies which of courde would affect its development. Some kind of deficiencies will damage the eyes. A blood test to make sure the kittens doesn't suffer any deficiencies now may be a good idea. A small amount of blood in the stool would be normal for an irritated bowel and as long as it's bright red it's not a problem (but you shoud of course tell your vet). If the blood is clotted and/or very dark it might be a sign of severe damage in the bowel.

I'd also check the inbreeding coefficient of the kitten. The severe patella problems suggest inherited problems and inbreeding is often an important factor. Sadly inbreeding also weaken a kittens immune system. 

The bowel problems I'm sure can be solved but the eyes and the patellas... no. I'd contact the breeder and ask for economical compensation. You've bought a kitten that quite possibly will have chronic problems with its health and the patellas might have to me surgically corrected. You should not have to pay full price for such a kitten.


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## kwarendorf

I have a purebred Javanese from a top breeder. Franklin had intestinal issues from the day I brought him home, nearly 3 years ago. It began as loose stool and morphed into vomiting 3-5 times a week. We went through every parasite in the book, including TF. Nothing helped. The average weight of a male Javanese is 9-10 Lbs. Franklin got down to 5. Finally we did an endoscopic biopsy and he was diagnosed with Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD). In May of 2010 he started a lifetime of prednisolone, now down to 5mg every other day, and has not vomited or had loose stool since he started. 

The nutritional deficit he endured while being diagnosed, a nearly 2 year process, has resulted in a less than full coat and third eyelids that do not always fully recede. I have never considered if his peripheral vision has been impacted, but his eyes certainly were. This exercise cost me around $8,000. The breeder offered me the opportunity to return him, but it was too late  I was not letting him go anywhere. I cannot speak to the orthopedic issues. He may not be perfect, but he is pretty healthy now and he's all mine


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## Abby Dad

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. 

When we met our boy, there were ten kittens from three litters available. All were born within a week of each other and all were the same size.

The blood (in the stool) was mentioned to the vet just prior to the TF diagnosis and the vet wasn't concerned about it. The vet is DACVIM certified and is a staff member of one of the top veterinary medical facilities in this country.

I'm going to try to focus on the individual issues and the most urgent is what is going on in his gut. IBD is something that I've thought about after a friend recently lost her Abby to this disease (at too young an age), however, in the short term I'm going to take Sol's advice and test for giardia and coccidosis. Is there anything else to specifically look for? Is it possible that the TF is so persistent that the ronidazole course didn't stop it?

Finally, there is the question about the breeder. In your case, kwarendorf, I believe that the breeder should've returned whatever you paid for the kitten. Did the breeder really expect that you'd return the kitten (to be "disposed" of by god only knows by what means)? In my case, I'm certain that the breeder doesn't have the resources to make any kind of an adjustment. But there is another large issue surrounding this and that is the damage being done to the breed itself - an issue for another day.


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## kwarendorf

This is a process of elimination excercise and ithink you are doing the right thing. IBD requires biopsies, and even though Franklin's were taken via endoscopy, it was a last resort. The breeder did offer me my money back and i declined. I had already made arrangements to adopt one of her retired females and she waived the $150 spay charge. I did adopt the female and she is great. I have also gone back to this breeder to buy a kitten for my GF and the kitten is spectacular. Franklin just drew the short straw  He's doing really well now though. He's up to about 8 pounds!


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## Sol

Abby Dad said:


> I'm going to try to focus on the individual issues and the most urgent is what is going on in his gut. IBD is something that I've thought about after a friend recently lost her Abby to this disease (at too young an age), however, in the short term I'm going to take Sol's advice and test for giardia and coccidosis. Is there anything else to specifically look for? Is it possible that the TF is so persistent that the ronidazole course didn't stop it?


I don't know much about how TF works, it's a quite "new" problem here in Sweden so I don't know more than I've read on American websites, but both giardia and coccidosis can be quite persisten so if TF is anything like them maybe another course of antibiotics is needed. But that's for your vet to decide.


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## Abby Dad

A fecal test (centrifugation float) done last weekend came back negative. I've been told that three consecutive fecal tests are needed for truly accurate findings so we'll try again. About every third day I find a pudding-like bowel movement. Very, very frustrating!


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## kwarendorf

As frustrating as it is in the short run, ruling things in or out definatively is good in the long term. These intestinal issues, regardless of their cause, can fade for periods of time only to resurface with a vengence. TF is not always present in each sample. To be sure, one way or the other, you realyy do need to check multiple samples. 

Each time you rule something out you move closer to finding the real cause.!


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## Abby Dad

*Parasite Testing Update*

In the last two months, the kitten has had a standard fecal exam (negative), a PCR exam to rule out Tritrichomonas foestus (positive & treated), a standard fecal exam (negative), and a standard fecal exam and a giardia-specific exam (both negative). The standard exams were conducted by different facilities. Predictably, the once weekly, watery-stool appeared in his box this morning on the same day the last test result came in. I'm looking for suggestions as to what the next step is (I have ruled out stress - in the kitten but not with me). Ideas?


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## saitenyo

Abby Dad said:


> In the last two months, the kitten has had a standard fecal exam (negative), a PCR exam to rule out Tritrichomonas foestus (positive & treated), a standard fecal exam (negative), and a standard fecal exam and a giardia-specific exam (both negative). The standard exams were conducted by different facilities. Predictably, the once weekly, watery-stool appeared in his box this morning on the same day the last test result came in. I'm looking for suggestions as to what the next step is (I have ruled out stress - in the kitten but not with me). Ideas?


I apologize if you already mentioned this and I missed it. Have you ruled out any dietary sensitivities yet? I don't know for sure if that'd cause the symptoms you're describing but I figure, it may be worth looking into if you're out of ideas.

One of my kittens had pudding-like stools and bad gas from the day we brought her home. We too ran parasite tests (standard fecal, and giardia test) which all came back negative. Finally my vet suggested it might be a dietary sensitivity, such as an intolerance to a specific ingredient in her food. We ended up trying grain-free, and that helped a little. Canned food (also grain-free) helped even more, and finally a fully raw diet was what did the trick. Her stools have been completely normal since switching to raw food.

So if you haven't yet, you may want to try the food intolerance route. A good place to start is to see if there are any common ingredients in the foods he's been on (if he's been on more than one kind). Grain sensitivities can be common in cats since their digestive systems really weren't designed to process grain, but it's obviously not that if he's already on grain-free foods. Some have problems with certain vegetables, certain proteins, or (as with my Athena) processed cooked foods in general.

In any case, I wish you luck. I hope you can get to the bottom of this soon!


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## mimitabby

I am sorry to hear your sad story, Abby Dad. I have forsaken purebred cats for all the reasons that you have enumerated. Let's face it, most people who breed cats really don't understand the complexities of genetics. By breeding within an increasingly small gene pool, many nasties come to light. 
It sounds like your cat is very sweet, so enjoy him for the life that he has.


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## Abby Dad

saitenyo said:


> I apologize if you already mentioned this and I missed it. Have you ruled out any dietary sensitivities yet? I don't know for sure if that'd cause the symptoms you're describing but I figure, it may be worth looking into if you're out of ideas.
> 
> One of my kittens had pudding-like stools and bad gas from the day we brought her home. We too ran parasite tests (standard fecal, and giardia test) which all came back negative. Finally my vet suggested it might be a dietary sensitivity, such as an intolerance to a specific ingredient in her food. We ended up trying grain-free, and that helped a little. Canned food (also grain-free) helped even more, and finally a fully raw diet was what did the trick. Her stools have been completely normal since switching to raw food.
> 
> So if you haven't yet, you may want to try the food intolerance route. A good place to start is to see if there are any common ingredients in the foods he's been on (if he's been on more than one kind). Grain sensitivities can be common in cats since their digestive systems really weren't designed to process grain, but it's obviously not that if he's already on grain-free foods. Some have problems with certain vegetables, certain proteins, or (as with my Athena) processed cooked foods in general.
> 
> In any case, I wish you luck. I hope you can get to the bottom of this soon!



I appreciate the advice but, like stress, food isn't likely the issue. In his seven months with us, he has never had dry food nor has he ever had any canned food with grain in it. His favorites are By Nature Organics, Blue Buffalo and the like (all poultry - no beef or fish). In addition, I'll have Whole Foods grind (two trips through the grinder) their organic chicken parts - about 15% of his diet is raw.


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## kwarendorf

At this point, food allergies are as likely as anything else to be causing his intestinal issues. Franklin does not do well with chicken. I feed him Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea. There is a venison formula as well. Both are canned and grain free. It is another "rule out" item that is worth exploring and is a lot cheaper than vet bills. How are his vision and hip issues?


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## Abby Dad

kwarendorf said:


> At this point, food allergies are as likely as anything else to be causing his intestinal issues. Franklin does not do well with chicken. I feed him Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea. There is a venison formula as well. Both are canned and grain free. It is another "rule out" item that is worth exploring and is a lot cheaper than vet bills. How are his vision and hip issues?


I haven't seen any worsening of either. His vet has confirmed loose patellas - both laterally and medially - on both knees. The peripheral vision deficiency isn't something that I can conclusively point to inbreeding as the cause. Insofar as canned food goes, the kitten's favorite is duck and that is what he receives the most of. I have tried pheasant, venison and rabbit - he is somewhat interested in the latter but is lukewarm with the others. Your suggestion is one that I will followup on during my next trip to Whole Foods and I'll see what they have besides chicken.


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## Tiikiri

Just curious, what has the breeder done for you? If *I* were the breeder I would have refunded the purchase price and offered to help with medical expenses.


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## kwarendorf

The key to finding a food allergy is to try and use a novel protein, one that the little guy has not been exposed to. That's why you see people trying duck, rabbit, venison etc. The important thing is to remove al other protwins from his diet, including dry food, for at least 4-6 weeks. If you don't see any improvement you can try soemthing like Hills z/d. z/d protein is hydrolized. Its structure is made so small that the body cannot see it as an allergen. If it's not a food allergy, the problem persists and the vet can't find a reason, it may be time to start thinking about IBD. It is was Franklin was finally diagnosed with and he has been right as rain ever since.


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## catloverami

If you've received no contact or interest from the breeder about the "luxating patellas" , I would contact the _registering body_ and _Aby breed council_ and outline to them your concern for the breed of these defects, and the negligence of breeders to perpetuate them. If you're cat is registered with CFA, you should contact:

Cat Fanciers' Association, Inc. 
1805 Atlantic Avenue, 
Manasquan, NJ 08736

CFA - Abyssinian Breed Council CFA Abyssinian Breed Council


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## Abby Dad

The kitten is registered. The breeder is aware of the issues but I suspect that, with different lines each showing obvious signs of inbreeding, this party's world is very uncomfortable now.

I can't rule out allergies (and I wish that the time needed to determine this was a bit more finite) but this is my next logical step.

Nor can I rule out IBD and that possibility is looming larger everyday. Pudding-like bowel movements are fast approaching the rule rather than the exception. I still can't dismiss the possibility of a recurrence of Tritrichomonas foetus (TF). I've searched the literature but I've seen nothing to indicate the ronidazole (correctly dosed as was my kitten) isn't 100% effective with TF and I'm wondering if anyone here has ever heard/seen a recurrence of TF after being treated with ronidazole?


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## Abby Dad

*Kitten Update*

At the age of nine-months, the kitten weighs 6.7 lbs. This last weekend found him only eating about half of his food ration which is odd because he's always eaten like a horse. The pudding-like stool is more common than ever since the TF treatment and now occurs almost daily. The kitten never slows down and outwardly is healthy except for the occasional limp. On Wednesday (3/2), I started him on EVO 95% Duck - no chicken in the ingredient list and he likes the stuff. I am debating another PCR test (or perhaps the bag culture bag technique this time) to rule out a possible reinfection of TF as my earlier question about this has garnered no response.


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## Mimosa

Abby Dad said:


> Nor can I rule out IBD and that possibility is looming larger everyday. Pudding-like bowel movements are fast approaching the rule rather than the exception. I still can't dismiss the possibility of a recurrence of Tritrichomonas foetus (TF). I've searched the literature but I've seen nothing to indicate the ronidazole (correctly dosed as was my kitten) isn't 100% effective with TF and I'm wondering if anyone here has ever heard/seen a recurrence of TF after being treated with ronidazole?


 I just went to a parasitolgy lecture about tritrichomonas fetus at Utrecht university this saturday and the lecturer stated that treatment with ronidazole often only gives a clinical improvement and relapses are common.
The good news was that TF resolves spontaneously in most cases. The bad news is that it often takes about two years to do so and that treatment may even prolong this period.

This lecturer advised only to treat when the clinical signs of the infections make the situation acutely insufferable for cat and/or owner.
Besides treating with Ronidazole there are also other things you could look at to alleviate the symptoms. TF feeds off the waste products of intestinal bacteria, so a changing to a less digestible diet to influence the intestinal microbiota may help. 
I think Danielle Gunn-Moore did a study that showed clinical improvement with a combination of antibiotics and change of diet, but I think she was also the one who showed a slower spontaneous recovery after treatment. (so not just treatment with Ronidazole, also different diet & antibiotics)


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## Mimosa

Abby Dad said:


> I am debating another PCR test (or perhaps the bag culture bag technique this time) to rule out a possible reinfection of TF as my earlier question about this has garnered no response.


The lecturer this saturday really emphasized that a negative test is not very reliable because cats can harbour TF without shedding. He showed us some slides of cats that tested positive for TF once, then negative for weeks on end and then positive again. Both on PCR and the in-pouch test.
My notes seem to be insufficient as to why but I got the impression he liked the in-pouch test more.

He advised repeating the test several times and/or use faeces collected for three days.

I hope this info helps you in any way, I don't envy the position you're in with this kitten.


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## Abby Dad

Mimosa said:


> The lecturer this saturday really emphasized that a negative test is not very reliable because cats can harbour TF without shedding.


This is just the data that I was looking for! I've read bits and pieces (from different sources) about this but not this much data from a single source. I am concerned about ronidazole because its been banned for human usage because its been deemed a carcinogen so how can this be much good for my kitten? I am monitoring the kitten's stool and the pudding-like consistency has waned during the last few days but I suspect that when it comes around again, I'll have it tested.

In the meantime, I've taken kwarendorf's and saitenyo's advice and the kitten has had chicken removed from his diet (he is eating a rotation of EVO 95% duck and venison) and I'll see where that takes us.

The kitten is outwardly fine and is a very happy guy. He's treated like the prince of the realm and he is the light in our lives. He'll get the best that we can give (and this forum has helped towards that end). We toy with the idea of a second kitten and, if we do, it will almost certainly come from overseas.


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## Abby Dad

*Food Allergy Ruled Out*

Its been six weeks since my kitten was taken off of what was primarily a (wet organic canned or organic raw) chicken diet. He has never had any grain in his diet nor any dry food. At the advice received in this forum, I put him on EVO's 95% duck in the hope of ruling in or out a food allergy. It appears that the latter might be the case as I have seen no significant stool changes and several days of normal stool will be followed by one or several episodes of smelly, pudding-like stool. This has me again considering a resurgence of TF and/or IBD. The kitten is outwardly healthy but I continue to worry about the possibility that he's genetically damned.


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## marie73

I have no advice or experience with this, but I'm so sorry this hasn't been resolved yet. You've gone above and beyond, tried so hard and you've done so much for little Abby. atback


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## NRD

I am not a vet, but it does occur to me that at this stage it wouldn't hurt if maybe you tried supplementing his diet by adding about 500 mg of L-Lysine, powdered form, to his food once a day. L-Lysine generally strengthens the immune system, so if he has a low-grade infection, that might help him fight it off enough to clear up his loose stool. When I adopted Little Hersh, he had constant crusties in his eyes and a loose stool for the first few weeks. With all the usual disclaimers, I will just say that in my case I gave him L-Lysine daily (and yes, he had a vet check-up right away), and both the crusts and the loose stool cleared up that first month and have not come back. At worst, you'll be out a bottle of L-Lysine. I recommend powdered capsules, so you can just open it and sprinkle into his wet food, adding a bit of water to help dissolve it. Again, may not help, but if I were in your situation I'd at least give it a try. And BTW, I use EVO wet cat and kitten food, as well as Weruva and Wellness wet.


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## Tiikiri

Do cats get SIBO? (small intestine bacterial overgrowth)
I have known of dogs that had it, and the symptoms were very similar. Has he been to a GI specialist?


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## Abby Dad

An article appearing widely this week has me wondering about the portion of raw food to my kitten's diet. Could his post TF diagnosis/treatment, GI difficulties be traced back to an antibiotic-resistant staph? Is there any experience with this here? This differs from the kitten's genetic issues and I'll take a look at the raw diet forum and see if there is anything on this there.

However, with all the negative on the kitten, I do want to point out that he shows very well. He is as solid as a rock. He has the ruddy's dark-ticked coat with red underneath and were he to be shown (because, in the experience that I've gleaned from this kitten and his breeder, the CFA only pays scant attention to genetic disorders [like bad knees, single kidneys and peripheral vision limitations; essentially, if he can stand up, he can win), I'm quite sure that he'd do very well.


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## Abby Dad

*Kitten Update*

In the intervening three weeks since resuming his previous diet regime (primarily a rotation of Merrick Turducken and By Nature Organics [their three chicken and turkey recipes] and an occasional treat of raw, ground organic chicken from Whole Foods), I began seeing more and more pudding-like stool. That was until this week where the pudding-like stool now comprises about 75% of the kitten's BMs. This morning I noticed liberal daubs of blood on the stool despite its loose consistency. Today reminds me very much of what I was seeing just prior to the TF diagnosis. 

Obviously the blood isn't the result of straining or constipation. With half a dozen fecal examines performed by two different vets, I think parasites can safely be ruled out - in addition to fecal floats, a PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) was also done.

My instinct tells me that whatever this issue is, it goes back to the breeder and the breeder's cattery. This party is a major (US) breeder of Abyssinians and is an officer in the (US) Abyssinian association. My next kitten will certainly come from overseas.

Thoughtful advice much appreciated.


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## kwarendorf

At this point you seem to have eliminated parasites and allergies. I think it's time to rule IBD in/out.


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## catloverami

I've been following this thread....thanks for keeping us updated. I certainly hope one day you'll find out about what's causing his stool problems. It's a possibility it might have something to do with antibiotics used on kitties when they were very young, and it upset the digestive system. Have you tried probiotics?


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## catloverami

Abby Dad said:


> ... However, with all the negative on the kitten, I do want to point out that he shows very well. He is as solid as a rock. He has the ruddy's dark-ticked coat with red underneath and were he to be shown (because, in the experience that I've gleaned from this kitten and his breeder, the CFA only pays scant attention to genetic disorders [like bad knees, single kidneys and peripheral vision limitations; essentially, if he can stand up, he can win), I'm quite sure that he'd do very well.


I remember many years ago there was a Manx cat being shown in CFA(actually owned by a judge) that got its Grand Champion, and this cat was crippled! It could not walk normally, but hopped. The other Manx breeders were furious that this cat ended up with a Grand Champion. So the members of the Manx Breed Council proposed a rule that all Manx must "stand and walk" to demonstrate soundness. This was accepted by CFA and was part of the breed standard for many years. I don't know when this was changed but the present breed standard says judge must _Disqualify_ if there is _"evidence of weakness in hindquarters"_. It really is up to the breed council members, to make the changes if there are any skeletal weaknesses that are apparent. Judges after all are not making vet exams on their show table. It really is a beauty pangeant, and it's _breeders'_ repsonsibility to safeguard their breed is healthy and sound and are not carrying weaknesses that will affect their health. Frankly, I'm shocked at some Persian pics I've seen lately, with cats that have such extreme noses and "wonky" eyes---so ugly! and can't imagine what a cat sees when it's eyes are looking in different directions.


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## Abby Dad

catloverami said:


> I've been following this thread....thanks for keeping us updated. I certainly hope one day you'll find out about what's causing his stool problems. It's a possibility it might have something to do with antibiotics used on kitties when they were very young, and it upset the digestive system. Have you tried probiotics?


Both of us thank you for hanging in with us! As followers know, the kitten has spent considerable time with very qualified vets but there have been no answers forthcoming there despite a four-figure investment. I've since learned that the breeder (apparently) handled what would normally be vet visits themselves. Again, this breeder is very very prominent player in the fancy and on the show circuit. The bottom line is that despite the assurances that all the kitten checkups and vaccinations were done, I just don't know for sure. I have given the kitten the Purina probiotic product but (after a suitable plus trial period) I've seen nothing positive or negative there.


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## catloverami

There may be some information on Probiotics in the website that you may find helpful....I hope so.

Probiotics for Irritable Bowel Syndrome Treatment in Cats - VetInfo


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## Abby Dad

*IBS or IBD?*

I regularly confuse IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) with IBD (inflammatory bowel disease). The vetinfo article lays much of the blame for IBS on poor diet - something the kitten has never had. My concern is IBD and this is likely my next focus - yet another diagnostic costing a small fortune. I'll, of course, update this thread.


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## Tiikiri

I would just like to comment... although I don't know who your breeder is, "ethical" and "reputable" are two different things. Just because they have top winning cats doesn't necessarily make them ethical. Since they have not refunded your purchase price I would consider them to be unethical.

However, we are talking about living creatures here. They could produce 40 kittens a year and 98% could be healthy, but like humans sometimes heath issue crop up. Breeders try to avoid them, but they happen.
I know a lot of good, ethical breeders who would have refunded the price of the kitten and offered another (not exchange, but given another). 
Importing a kitten from Europe won't necessarily guarantee that it is healthy. I would hope that you don't tar all American breeders with the same brush due to your bad experience.
Make certain you get a contract with your next kitten that outlines what sort of compensation they will give if the kitten comes down with a congenital illness. I have contracts on ALL of my animals.
Just my 2cents.


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## kwarendorf

Abby Dad said:


> I regularly confuse IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) with IBD (inflammatory bowel disease).


IBS is what they say when they can't really find anything specific. IBD is a very specific diagnosis, reached only through biopsy. Cat discomfort and expense aside, at least with IBD you know exactly what you're dealing with and how to treat it. With IBS you're back to shooting in the dark. 

Franklin came with a guarantee against congenital defects. Things like IBD are not congenital and would not be covered by the guarantee. His breeder offered me a full refund or exchange or what ever I wanted to make the situation right. I kept him


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## Tiikiri

*SIBO and EPI*

Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO) and Pancreatic Insufficiency | petMD

Has your cat been tested for pancreatic insufficiency?


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## Abby Dad

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Tiikiri said:



I would hope that you don't tar all American breeders with the same brush due to your bad experience. Make certain you get a contract with your next kitten that outlines what sort of compensation they will give if the kitten comes down with a congenital illness. I have contracts on ALL of my animals.Just my 2cents.

Click to expand...

_I appreciate your thoughts but must respectfully disagree. I see nothing but passing interest in breeding for genetic vigor in North America. Please point out a bylaw or policy (or something with teeth in it) in any of the associations for a specific breed or even the fancy itself. It is my opinion that North American breeders are far more interested in adding to their line a better chin or eye set than they are an outcross. At this time there are some European countries that require breeders test for certain genetic disorders. Anything like that in North America?

In many cases a contract attesting to genetic health is much like a lowest price guarantee on a big box store advertisement. They aren't really saying that they have the lowest price, just that they'll match it if your legwork finds a (documented) lower price. Until there actually is a consequence to a policy of inbreeding, there will never be an incentive to end inbreeding.


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