# appropriate correction?



## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

I've got a 10-11 month old polydactal kitten, and I've been cutting her nails since she was little, making sure to do it on a regular basis to keep her dewclaws down. She's never liked it, been very wiggly about it because she has never liked to be put on her back. I can do some of my cats single handledly, others I need help with. Gracie has always been one I could do on my own. Last time she tried to bite me.

She's biting now when I mess with her paws, whether for nail cutting or just to hold her paws, she bites me. Not too hard yet, but that's very bad behavior I'm not going to tolerate. So what's an appropriate correction in that situation?


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## my5kitties (Sep 13, 2005)

Meowmie said:


> If your cutter is not the absolute best quality cutter you can buy, please invest in a _real _good one. As I said, the cutter itself can cause pain and discomfort and some cats will just react more strongly than others.


What brand would you recommend, Meowmie? I've tried the scissor kind (twice) and now I'm using a guillotine-type cutter. And everytime I've cut my 3 babies claws, it seems like the claws flake on the sides.


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## my5kitties (Sep 13, 2005)

Meowmie said:


> I wish I could recommend a particular brand, but I can't. The clipper we have is a special tool a very dear friend of ours who is a tool and die maker made for us from an adjustable wire stripper. (He made one for their own cat and when he saw how terrific it was, he made one for us too.)
> 
> Anyway, I looked around a little bit and this clipper (based on the picture) comes pretty close to what we have (at least the basic idea is the same), but of course, I have no idea whether the clipper in the picture would be any good or not, so I wouldn't dare recommending it.
> http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod. ... ram=df5628
> ...


Actually, you've been a tremendous help. The clipper that you linked to is the same brand as the guillotine-type clipper I'm currently using. And I came this><close to buying the one you posted. I'll have to give that one a try. It can't be any worse than the one I'm using.

I probably am trimming just a bit too short. I have come a bit too close to the quick on all three cats.

Thank you for all of your help, Meowmie.
*hugs*


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm sorry, I was in a huge hurry when I posted that. I am a professional groomer; my equipment is professional quality and I do know where and where not to cut  I don't flip her onto her back to trim her nails - I start all the cats out in a natural position, sitting upright on my lap. The other cats I do this with deal rather well, but Gracie eventually starts wiggling and does sometimes end up on her back, cradled between my legs. As I stated, I do need help with some of the cats, and I get it from my girlfriend, who is also a professional groomer. I'm just disappointed that despite working with this kitten since she was tiny, she still doesn't take it well at all, and even seems to be getting worse. It is not appropriate for her to bite me when I touch her feet. She is not trapped nor being hurt; she doesn't act afraid or try to get away, just instantly resorts to biting, which is why I consider it BAD behavior. 

I do not know the proper way to correct biting in a cat. If she thinks it is appropriate and acceptable to bite when I touch her feet, I do not want her to apply that to the rest of life, thinking she can bite any time she doesn't like what's going on. I know all about how to handle dominant and/or frightened dogs in this situation and others, but I'm not really sure abot cat psychology, and I do not want to punish her and certainly not traumatize her, but I do want her to understand that biting is not the answer. Because she is polydactal and has double dew claws, it is important to make sure they are trimmed down before they dig into her feet, something I have seen happen.


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

I understand that you are trying to help, and for that, I thank you. 

I am not cutting any more off the nail than necessary. I am not cutting past the curve, and I am not hitting the quick or getting anywhere near the quick. I am not causing my kitten pain when I cut her nails, nor am I scaring her. I know my cat and I know the situation. My cat is a brat. If you don't want to believe that, then that's fine. You can believe I'm intentionally traumatizing her, as I can't stop you. You don't know me or what I know about cats, nor do you know how unwilling I would ever be to scare or hurt any of my animals. You also don't know my girlfriend, who knows twice as much about cats and has dealt with a lot more cats than I have and who agrees that the problem is not pain but the simple fact that spoiled little Gracie is a brat who does not like not getting her way. I know it's hard to understand where people are coming from when you don't know them but for a post or two on a message board, and I can appreciate that. 

When I read your first couple replies, I was a little offended because you assumed I didn't know anything, but then when we discussed it, we realized that if we'd read my hastily-written initial post, we'd probably assume the same thing. And yes, nail cutting can be a horribly traumatic experience if the person doing the trimming doesn't know what they're doing - how to hold the cat, how to extend the claws quickly and efficiently, how and where to cut, etc. All I can tell you is that I do know what I'm doing. I've done it for years with many of my own cats, and I do it at work. Most times I can do it quickly and easily without help and without upsetting the cat. If I need help, I get help. I am just troubled by the fact that a kitten who should be used to it by now (seeing as I started with her early and consistantly as opposed to an adult cat who'd never had it done before) is acting like this.

I also fail to see the problem with playing with her feet. Maybe you took that the wrong way and think I'm holding her down, grabbing at her feet, and playing with her toes or something ( ? ), but I'm talking about simply holding a paw for a few seconds here and there to desensitize them to having their feet touched. I'm not holding on for dear life and not letting them go -- when they're relaxed, I'll often gently take a paw and hold it (lightly) far a few seconds and let go. I do this with all of them, and they're all used to it, including Gracie. It's just in the past few weeks that she's been biting and acting generally more of a brat than usual, both with people and the other cats.

*Someone out there has to have some suggestions about a biting cat. If we can all give me the benefit of the doubt for a few minutes and assume I am not hurting my kitten, I would love for people to adress the actual question about what to do with a cat who is biting when not given her way. I know other people have to have had similar experiences.*

I am not going to have her declaws removed. If kept trimmed, they are not a problem. I have seen polydactal cats in the salon whose dewclaws _have_ dug into the sides of their feet, but that is something routine maintenance can prevent and not a reason to partially declaw my cat. If I wasn't willing and dedicated to taking care of her extra toe(nail)s, I would have had them removed when she was spayed, but at that point and up until recently, I was able to trim her nails without much problem at all.

I do appreciate your help, and I know that you're trying to help my kitten. I am too, but if after readin this post you still don't think I've "heard" a single word you've said, then I guess I'm deaf, so save yourself the time of repeating everything. I mean that politely, not sarcastically, because I know how it feels to waste my time and energy trying to help someone and them not "getting" what I have to say. If that's the case, then we'll have to both assume that the other just does not understand the cat and/or the situation and leave it at that. 

I am still open to suggestions about dealing with a bratty kitten who bites when she doesn't get her way.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Hey AmberD, I think the point is that you can't correct your cat's biting because she's doing it for a reason , so you may need to change the way you're cutting. Either nail clipping is uncomfortable for her or she feels threatened. It's not that you are doing anything WRONG! Some cat's are just more sensitive (or bratty 8O ) and it's just a matter of figuring out what will work for her. 
My Little-one used to be a monster when I first got him. He HATED having his nails trimmed and even now can tend to get annoyed when I cut them. And, yes he will try to bite (albeit not hard). So when he's in one of those moods, I will cut as much as he will tollerate and stop before he gets upset. Then he gets a treat. I think, with a cat that gets upset with trimming it's important not to force it. that way it doesn't become an unpleasant memory for them and they'll tend to act better the next time. I think the key is to watch her very closely and make sure you stop BEFORE she starts to bite. Also, Meowmie's suggestion of putting her on a surface, like a table, is a good one. I know the other cats are fine in your lap but obviously it's not working for her so it may be helpful to find another position that she is more comfortable with.
Just like us, each cat is very different and eventhough you've done tons of cats with no trouble, this one, for whatever reason, jsut plain doesn't like having her claws trimmed. Heck, people spend fortunes on pedecures and find them very enjoyable and relaxing and to me it's complete torture!! Go figure.
As for biting in general, I have found the best way to teach them to stop is, whenever they went to bite me I would give them a sharp "No!' and then completely ignore them for a few minutes. They figured out pretty quickly that they would not get any atttention if they bit.
Hope that helps.


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

Thank you. I do understand that all cats are different and do need different approaches. I am working on it 

I have another cat I caught out of my backyard when she was approximately 2 years old. She's a sweet cat and loving, but she also a huge brat. Not only does she give me problems with the nail trimming, but just general things she doesn't like. If she's laying where I want to sit and I can't share with her for whatever reason, my suggestion that she make way (however gentle) is often met with growls, swats, or even nipping motions. She's a BRAT, plain and simple. 

My whole concern here is that while Sophie, the above-mentioned kitty, came to me full grown and fairly set in her ways, I would like to be able to work with my kitten's brattiness before she starts biting me when I try to move her aside. That is BAD behavior, no matter how anyone wants to spin it. I wouldn't tolerate one of my dogs resorting to biting when I pressed his comfort levels, except if it was a dog I'd just set about re-affirming pack hierarchy - he eats after me, goes through doors after me, doesn't get anything without earning it, etc. But cats don't do that kind of thing, so I'm just looking to correct a problem before it really starts. I do plan on trying different things with cutting Gracie's nails. Thanks for replying w/o taking the tone like I'm a blundering idiot.


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

Hmmm... well, I don't know how long these nail clippers are supposed to last. I've had them less time than my dog nail clippers and used them a whole lot less... But it might be worth the investment to just buy a new pair and see if that helps. (I've heard too many stories about nail clippers getting sharpened poorly around here - maybe our sharpeners suck, I don't know) It's really just a brattiness issue (princess is putting it nicely  ), as she's tending to bite a lot more in the past few months - including biting FOR attention, lol. Snot. She's also started chasing the other cats, especially a couple females (merely, I think, because they're the lower end of the totem pole) . . . not to mention peeing. Don't know what's gotten into the little devil, but she's been a fireball since day one when she appeared out of thin air in our backyard, screaming her tiny (yet huge) lungs out, demanding food.

Oh well, we'll see what happens in a few weeks when I trim her nails again. I will, btw, be putting her on the table to see if that helps her any, and I will have someone there to help me 

Thanks.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Hi Amber, It's starting to sound like you're dealing with more than a nail trimming issue (although I think the suggestions still apply). If she's acting more agressively than usual and inappropriately peeing, I'm wondering, have you brought her into the vet to rule out a UTI or other health issue? If not, that would be the first thing I would do.
As for biting when she wants attention, that's really common. Little-one did that when he was younger. I think I just wasn't giving him enough attention so I made sure that I had a few good play sessions with him every day. Then when he went to nip at me I'd say "No!" and ignore him long enough for him to stop. THEN i'd pay attention to him. He figured out, pretty quickly, that biting=getting ignored and stopped.
I think the best way (if not the only way) of dealing with "bad" behavior in pets is to try to think like them. They do not react as we do and often chaging our own approarch can do wonders. I think seeing them as being bratty, or spoilt is anthropomorphizing them. They don't have the same intent to their behavior as we do instead they are reacting. So the question should be "Why is my cat misbeaving and biting?" Not how do I correct her bad behavior. Does that make sense?
Anyway, that's just my opinion. Hope it helps.


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

nanook said:


> Hi Amber, It's starting to sound like you're dealing with more than a nail trimming issue


Well... that was the whole point, and why I was getting a bit frustrated in earlier posts. The nail trimming was never the point, just an example (though, yes, I am going to try to work with the suggestions). The point is her behavior. I'm not trying to anthropomorphize the kitten, but they all have very different personalities, and the best word I can use to describe hers is "brat"  I was never looking for a way to physically correct the kitten, necessarily, I am just looking for a big-picture correction/solution to avoid my "brat" becoming a "drama queen."

I have not taken her to the vet for the peeing yet because it seems to me like more of a marking issue - she pees in a couple specific places. I actually haven't caught her doing it in the past few days, but if it continues I probably will look into the UTI possibility.


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## AmberD (Dec 29, 2003)

Again, Meowmie... thank you... for your effort. I'm getting the impression you've got a set view of me and my intentions that cannot be changed no matter what I say. I read what you just posted, and to me, that is common sense. I _do not_ punish my cats. I do not swat them, I do not squirt them, I certainly do not rub their noses in their waste. I understand that physical punishment, or punishment on a whole, is not a productive solution, and in fact is often counter productive, as it not only does not help the problem, it just welcomes negative associations for the kitty whenever it sees you. 

Gracie is not afraid of me, and I would not consider doing anything to change that. When I call her, she comes eagerly. When I reach out to her, she raises her head to be petted. Sometimes she bites, but not out of fear or pain, just because she doesn't see a problem with it, and I've not figured out how to inform her that biting is not appropriate - be they affectionate or annoyed bites. Like I said, I'd like for her to stop seeing biting as an appropriate reaction to not getting her way before she turns into another kitty of mine and starts biting and growling when I ask her to move off a chair I need or a window I need to shut.


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

> You don't have to inform the cat that biting is not appropriate. Interrupting and redirecting the behavior is the only thing you have to do.


Could you give me an example of what to do instead? Twix bites/scratches people when he gets annoyed, sometimes just a second before he was purring like crazy. What should I do to redirect the biting? He's not interested in toys when he's like that. If he won't do anything else, how do I get him to realize he shouldn't bite people?


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

> The big important question here is, what was happening while he was happy and purring? Can you possibly give an example? Was somebody petting him? Playing with him? Brushing him?


Usually, someone is petting him, one of us so he knows us. We know he doesn't like people reaching over his head, so we pet him from behind. Nothing changes at all, he just suddenly switches. Beleive me, we've watched for any signs. 



> If a situation gets to the point where he bites, stop whatever you were doing (petting him for instance) immediately. Do it quietly, without making a fuss.


Wouldn't that just teach him to keep biting? We've tried that, it only let him know that biting was a good way to get us to stop.




> If it's your hand or arm that has to be freed, move it toward your cat. This confuses the cat because that's a response he didn’t expect, and it also makes it easier for you to disengage his teeth.


It doesn't confuse him at all...he just keeps biting. 



> You can quietly walk away from the cat and let him calm down, or whether he is interested or not, you can make him play for a few minutes with things you throw for him, away from you and away from him.


Wouldn't that teach him that biting gets us to stop petting and play with him?



> I really believe that it is absolutely and totally unrealistic to expect a cat to realize that he shouldn't bite people. When a cat bites someone he is responding to something the person has done.


I guess I disagree...I don't expect them to understant like a person would if you told them not to, but cats can learn that some things are not allowed. Jumping on counters, for example. Whenever our cats jump on the counters, we take them off again, and they have learned they are not supposed to do that anymore. They have also learned not to shred the carpet, and we gave them a scratching post. 

If just leaving encourages Twix to bite, the only other option is to not pet him, which isn't really an option because he would be lonely.

I don't think spray bottles are inhumane. It doesn't hurt them, they just lick it off and are fine a few minutes later. If a little squirt is cruel, does that mean giving them baths is absolutely nasty? The squirt bottle helped our cats learn not to shred carpets, and not to be on the counters. Now they don't have to be shut in a room when a door to a room is closed, because they know not to shred the carpet. Which is better, being shut in a room every time we have to close a door, or a few squirts?


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

The thing is, we aren't provoking him at all. And we have been using the squirt bottle method, and he *is* improving. Walking away did not improve it. From what I have experienced, a little, not-harsh discipline helps alot.


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

> When, for example, petting leads to aggression, you are "provoking" the cat by petting him too long. This is especially important if you already know that petting is one of those situations where the cat will get upset.


So are you saying just don't pet him at all? That would make him lonely. 

No offense, but you haven't provided a solution for me. You've said that petting him provokes him...well, what do you want me to do then? Either I pet him, and teach him not to bite me, or I don't pet him, which would make him lonely.


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

> For a cat like this you need to learn his tolerance limit and then never go beyond it


It's different every time. Sometimes he doesn't care at all, sometimes it's after 30 seconds. There is no way that I can tell when he is going to bite. It's completely random. 



> No matter how relaxed and trusting your cat looks, avoid petting the sensitive stomach area because it’ll elicit a defense reaction. This is a natural reaction, so don’t cause confusion for you or your cat by trying to rub his belly the way you do to your dog.”


He loves being rubbed on his stomach, though.


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

Nevermind...I don't think we'll agree on this. Thanks for the advice, though.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Oh yea, I've been following the "correction" post. :roll: 
If it weren't so frustrating it would be funny. She, obviously, is unable to read her cat. You can not tell me there are NO signs that the cat is going to bite. A tail twitch, dialated pupils, fur twitch... How can you teach someone to be observant? I don't know. Clearly, the ct is stressed by SOMETHING and she is just refusing to see that. Poor cat!


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## Paw Prints (Apr 1, 2005)

Excuse me, but that's very rude. I'm trying my best to help my cat. I'm trying my best to look for signs, and I can't see any. Unless you've been in my exact situation, with my cat, you can't know that you would do any better.


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## Heather102180 (Nov 19, 2003)

Please don't assume that someone can not "read their cat." Paw prints is obviosuly trying to do her best with her situation and doesn't need any negativity added to it.

And I personally have a biting cat as well that I've been dealing with for almost 3 years now and most of the time there really are no signs at all! He can be purring and perfect one moment and as soon as I walk away, he lunges and bites me all the way up at my thigh.

I feel for you Paw Prints, it's a very tough situation to be in and I know you are doing your best to detour your cats behavior.


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## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Paw Prints, That was rude and I sincerely apologize. It was not directed at you. 
Having had a cat that used to bite I know how frustrating it can be. One thing I remembered that I did with Little-one, aside from all the above, was if he did actually get to bite me I would NOT pull away. Instead I'd gently push my hand TOWARD him. You should have seen the look of shock on his face! And he'd immediately relax. I had forgotten about doing that and it was extremely effective. He doesn't bite anymore, thank goodness.


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