# wet food and the litter box -- what's going on?



## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Another poo thread, courtesy of my darling b. Believe it or not, she's one of the most charming cats I've ever met...just proving that you can't judge a cat by its contents.

Before I launch into this edition of her saga, I want to say that my goal is to have both of my cats on at least 75% wet food (keeping dry in the picture for our occasional 3-4 day trips away from home)...and probably ultimately raw. So I'm not looking for justification for feeding dry only...not at all! Not least of all because b adores wet food of all kinds, and I wouldn't deny her any pleasure (short of eating our birds  ). 

But something odd is happening with her when I've fed wet so far, and I want to pick your brains. Maybe you can toss some new ideas onto the fire. My thinker is thought out.

Here's the poo-story:

*1.* She came to us on Purina One (a salmon/tuna flavor, I think) *dry only*. Her *stools were perfectly firm* and normal-looking, but they smelled pretty strongly (and she was going 3 times a day, so there was plenty to smell). And she had _frequent gas that would singe your nose-hairs._

*2.* About 2 weeks later, I started transitioning both cats to grain-free (Blue Wilderness chicken) dry. _The horrible gas went away immediately._ 

At the same time, I started introducing wet food, an ounce at a time. I tried a small variety of grain-free flavors at first (we have another cat who's picky), but settled on Wellness for b after a week or so. 

*b's poos began to be quite soft about half of the time, as soon as we started this. *Sometimes it was an entirely soft stool...sometimes half was firmer and half soft. But it was never really firm. And she was still going 3 times a day, so the opportunities for stepping in it, or dipping her tail in it, etc., were plentiful. 

I tried 2 probiotics, Prozyme, canned plain pumpkin. She's been treated for worms and fleas as well. 

*3.* After a few weeks of this, I noticed that more chicken-heavy wet food flavors _seemed_ to produce the worst stools (never diarrhea, just mushy). So I decided to try Natural Balance limited ingredient foods, to see if an elimination diet would reveal the culprit. I had already used up the first bag of BW chicken and started a bag of BW duck (still has chicken in it, but less), so I ordered NB duck/pea dry and venison/pea wet. 

The dry food came first, so I took away the Wellness wet (to remove as much chicken as I could, in case it was, indeed the culprit) and started mixing the NB dry with the BW duck dry. *On this dry-only mix, b's poos immediately improved fairly drastically*...they were almost as firm as they had been when she first got here, and she started going less (2 a day, instead of 3). 

*4.* The NB venison/pea wet food arrived almost a week afterward, when the transition to NB duck/pea dry was almost complete. I started giving her about an ounce of the new wet food a day, since I assumed venison was something entirely new and might upset her. *Right away, her poos took a slight turn for the worse*...maybe 75% firm, 25% soft(ish) (but still better than they'd been on BW/Wellness, so I wasn't too discouraged). I worked her up to half NB dry/half NB wet and waited a week or so to see if things improved. They didn't, so I tried phasing the dry out entirely, thinking that maybe the different rates of digestion between wet and dry was complicating things for her. 

*Wet-only* seemed promising for a couple of days (at least, she was pooing less often, and in smaller amounts, but they smelled again). Then, on the third day, it was *worse than ever*. So I started phasing dry back in, a little at a time. Things went back to ~75% firm as soon as dry was back.

*5.* What I've done now (please don't hurt me!) is phase the wet out altogether, temporarily, because I wonder if the NB venison/pea wet was a bad choice. Also, I'm going to be going away for a few days this weekend, and can't stand the thought of coming home to a house smeared in b poo. 

Tomorrow, some by Nature Organics 95% wet (in beef and turkey flavors) will be here, so I can start introducing one of those (think I'll start with the turkey) when we're back from our little holiday. My fingers are crossed, but I can't help but be skeptical at this point.

What do you think? *Why do b's poos firm up on dry only, and get sloppy when I introduce wet?* Could I have been right about the chicken allergy, but then goofed in choosing a venison wet (it does seem an odd thing for a small species of cat to eat)? Could it be NB LID wet foods (when I look at labels, I find that the by Organics 95% and similar wet foods like EVO 75% are actually simpler foods than NB LID, which is aggravating)?? 

I know how different each cat is, and that trial and error is the name of the game...but if any of you have any thoughts, I'd be so happy to hear them. Thanks!


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

^ Up there was a bit confusing, so lets see if i can sort it out x__X
How many weeks had Bee been on _wet only_ before something happened and you changed it up?
It could be that her system is so used to dry, that when you switch to wet, her system goes O__X; and doesn't know what to do with the extra moisture/less carbs.

I think the best thing to do would be to stick with one wet flavor at a time, for at least 3 weeks and see what happens. (Otherwise I don't think her system has enough time to change.)
Before that though, since you are currently on dry only, phase into the Duck/pea wet *super slowly*. Like only half an oz a day for 3 days, then 1 oz for 3 days, etc. Then once she is on Duck/pea only, leave her for 3 weeks and see if the poo improves. If it doesn't, switch to a different flavor.

Additionally I _have_ heard of cats that do 'great' on dry, terrible on wet and fantastic on raw. She might be such a girl.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

MinkaMuffin said:


> ^ Up there was a bit confusing, so lets see if i can sort it out x__X
> How many weeks had Bee been on _wet only_ before something happened and you changed it up?
> It could be that her system is so used to dry, that when you switch to wet, her system goes O__X; and doesn't know what to do with the extra moisture/less carbs.
> 
> ...


Thanks!!! Sorry for the extra detail...it's as much for my benefit as everyone else's (I keep thinking I must be missing something obvious...how can it be this difficult to squeeze normal poo out of a cat on a healthy diet??).

Yep, I've tried to give every switch at least a few weeks to normalize. Here's the short version:

--Purina One* dry only*, ~2 weeks = 3 firm but smelly stools per day, plus horrible gas

--Blue Wilderness chicken (later duck) *dry* + Wellness (mostly chicken) *wet* (half/half), ~6 weeks *=* no gas, but 3 smelly half firm-ish/half soft stools per day

--Natural Balance LID duck/pea *dry only*, ~1 week *=* 2 firm, non-smelly stools per day (whoop!)

--NB LID *dry* + NB LID *wet* (venison/pea), ~3 weeks *=* 3 mostly firm-ish, but partly soft again, stools per day

--NB LID *wet only*, 3 days *= *2 smelly, small stools per day for 2 days, and then 2 _very, very soft and smelly_ stools on day 3 (couldn't face this indefinitely...so, for the sake of my own sanity, called off the wet-only experiment for now and started easing dry back in)

--NB LID *dry only*, just yesterday and today = back to 2 firm, non-smelly stools per day

There were transitions between each change...I try to make every change (even when it's back to something she's already had) over a minimum of 3 days...but it's usually 5-7.

The even shorter version is: the only time she's had completely firm stools is when she's on dry only. I hope that it's just a matter of finding the right wet food...the simpler the better? Raw's just not yet feasible, for a few reasons.

Argh!!


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

littlebee said:


> There were transitions between each change...I try to make every change (even when it's back to something she's already had) over a minimum of 3 days...but it's usually 5-7.
> 
> The even shorter version is: the only time she's had completely firm stools is when she's on dry only. I hope that it's just a matter of finding the right wet food...the simpler the better? Raw's just not yet feasible, for a few reasons.
> 
> Argh!!


It looks like the time on each 'combination' might be long enough, but I don't think the transitions were. (But obviously its up to you if you want to do them longer.)

Why not try Feline's Pride? It's frozen all-raw food for cats that might make a difference without having to chop and grind and such.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

I just looked into Feline's Pride. It's 10 dollars a pound. 8O

I'd say, just keep trying to find the right wet food. My aunt went through several wet food brands before starting Royal Canin (Medi-cal - Hypoallergenic) as it's the only wet food that doesn't result in problems for her cat.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Can't get any sort of pre-made raw locally, or I'd definitely have given it a try already...and the shipping is killer.  I haven't had a chance to sit down and look up prices for all my raw options, but one Nature's Variety flavor that I totted up at Amazon came out to ~$55.00 or so a month _for just b _(Sabine is a bigger cat, so would more than double that if I put her on raw, too). And, especially since b's a big licker, my husband's not convinced raw's safe with young kids in the house...so the safety issue is something else I have to take the time to dredge up evidence for. Double argh.

Of course, I'm not saying that my cats don't deserve the best I can give them...but we have to be as economical as we can, you know? We've got two cats, two birds, two horses and three dogs, all on pretty good foods. Plus two human "pets". Who would live off frozen chicken nuggets if they could.


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Yeah, sadly Feline's Pride is a bit above my budget as well. Thankfully there are a lot of different premade raw options out there if homemade is not feasible right now.

I feed my cats Primal which is half the price of Feline's Pride, and is sold at local stores, negating the need to pay for shipping. I've been very happy with it so far.

Edit: Ah nevermind, just saw your latest reply. Must have posted as I was typing. Although, just in case, may want to give this a shot if you haven't already: http://www.primalpetfoods.com/locator/index.php


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Carmel said:


> I just looked into Feline's Pride. It's 10 dollars a pound. 8O


Right?! Ouch. It stinks, because I really, really, really want to try it...I feel pretty sure it'd do the trick in the litter box, and I'm sold on the health benefits to the kits.



> I'd say, just keep trying to find the right wet food. My aunt went through several wet food brands before starting Royal Canin (Medi-cal - Hypoallergenic) as it's the only wet food that doesn't result in problems for her cat.


_*Thanks*_....that's reassuring! Fingers crossed for the by Nature 95% cans that are on the way!! Luckily, I think I've discovered the secret to getting Sabine to eat whatever wet I want her to (Parmesan to the rescue..,thanks, Saitenyo!), so what b can't eat won't be wasted.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

saitenyo said:


> Yeah, sadly Feline's Pride is a bit above my budget as well. Thankfully there are a lot of different premade raw options out there if homemade is not feasible right now.
> 
> I feed my cats Primal which is half the price of Feline's Pride, and is sold at local stores, negating the need to pay for shipping. I've been very happy with it so far.
> 
> Edit: Ah nevermind, just saw your latest reply. Must have posted as I was typing. Although, just in case, may want to give this a shot if you haven't already: Primal Pet Foods: Store Locator


Thanks!! About 60 miles away are some stores that carry Nature's Variety...but that's the closest option I've been able to find. It's a city I like visiting, and I keep trying to think of an excuse to go there regularly to stock up on cat food....


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

In that city is there not a Whole Foods?
I noticed you were in Texas and they are everywhere here..
(I also understand the far away thing... 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store seems like forever when I was used to down the street when I lived in Cali. And that nearest by town doesn't have much of anything there, so hour to the closest city X__X)


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

MinkaMuffin said:


> In that city is there not a Whole Foods?
> I noticed you were in Texas and they are everywhere here..
> (I also understand the far away thing... 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store seems like forever when I was used to down the street when I lived in Cali. And that nearest by town doesn't have much of anything there, so hour to the closest city X__X)


(quietly weeping)

I'm in deep east Texas...which might be "enough said". 

The closest Whole Foods is 130 miles away, a fact that I bewail at least once a week...Wal-Mart and Kroger are our grocery options. There's a Mexican market with a proper butcher, but it's as far from my house as possible. There are two small mom/pop organic food stores, too, but both have very limited meat selections. 

Sigh.


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## Penny135 (Apr 6, 2011)

I use dry only food for the same reasons you do. When I add wet, Sassy's stools are horrible. Soft and extremely stinky. She had alot of gas on wet food too.

She is now on TOTW venison and smoked salmon. It is grain free.At first I felt guilty because I wasn't giving her wet. But all cats are different. Some just can't toolerate wet. I have to drive 70 miles to get it but its worth it for her health. I just buy in bulk. Shes much more active, Her coat is shinier, shes not vomiting anymore, and she really likes her food now!!!  

Do whats healthier for your cat be it wet or dry and don't feel guilty.

Most of all just enjoy her!!!
Penny


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Penny135 said:


> I use dry only food for the same reasons you do. When I add wet, Sassy's stools are horrible. Soft and extremely stinky. She had alot of gas on wet food too.
> 
> She is now on TOTW venison and smoked salmon. It is grain free.At first I felt guilty because I wasn't giving her wet. But all cats are different. Some just can't toolerate wet. I have to drive 70 miles to get it but its worth it for her health. I just buy in bulk. Shes much more active, Her coat is shinier, shes not vomiting anymore, and she really likes her food now!!!
> 
> ...


Thanks, Penny. Guilt is a powerful thing. :/ It's helps immensely to hear that others have had (and survived) similar issues with their cats. And it's really amazing just how different cats are... I'll keep my fingers crossed that we can find a wet food that works for her (or a reasonable raw option), but if not, I'll keep Sassy in mind, and won't panic.  

TOTW!!! I hear the greatest things about that feed! I'm about to start switching my dogs to it in just a couple of weeks...I'm excited to hear yet another testimonial! We're lucky and can get it here (I only learned after I'd bought a big supply of [more expensive] Blue Buffalo's Life Source for them at a regular pet supply shop...oh well). I think they're going to love it.

Your Sassy is a lucky girl. That is a long way to go...but I bet she's more than worth it!


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

littlebee said:


> (quietly weeping)
> 
> I'm in deep east Texas...which might be "enough said".
> 
> ...


*pats slowly*
The most 'exciting' thing (thats close to us) around here is Elvis Night at Mom's Cafe....



littlebee said:


> TOTW!!! I hear the greatest things about that feed! I'm about to start switching my dogs to it in just a couple of weeks...I'm excited to hear yet another testimonial! We're lucky and can get it here (I only learned after I'd bought a big supply of [more expensive] Blue Buffalo's Life Source for them at a regular pet supply shop...oh well). I think they're going to love it.
> 
> Your Sassy is a lucky girl. That is a long way to go...but I bet she's more than worth it!


What is TOTW? (I'd google it, but im pretty sure google would go HUH)


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

When we switched out four cats from kibble to canned only, they had the most awful, runny, stinky poo ever! FOR THREE WEEKS!!!! *die*

However, after the "detox" period - which IS COMPLETELY NORMAL - they all leveled out. Had I known about Slippery Elm Bark Powder at that time, as well as probiotics, I would have used those to curb the runs. Since your main goal is to get kitty on 75% canned, maybe this is an option? And for your time away from home - have you considered ZiwiPeak? Yes, ordering may make it kinda pricey, but it's not like it's a food you will feed constantly. It's a dehydrated raw food, like beef jerky. 

Edit: Wanted to say- the reason I suggest ziwi instead of kibble.. it may be that the kibble is what's causing more issues. our kids were FINE on kibble too. then swtiched to canned. three weeks of horror and then fine again. then when we gave them some dry as a treat now and again - guess what? HORROR! it was awful. i am convinced they add something to dry food to keep poops "uniform".


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

MinkaMuffin said:


> *pats slowly*
> The most 'exciting' thing (thats close to us) around here is Elvis Night at Mom's Cafe....


Ooooo...Elvis Night!!! (I'm afraid to ask for more detail. ;D)



> What is TOTW? (I'd google it, but im pretty sure google would go HUH)


Taste of the Wild! Grain-free dry and canned for cats and dogs. Great name, right? The first time I heard it, I snickered for about 5 straight minutes. Very highly regarded stuff, though!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Muzby said:


> When we switched out four cats from kibble to canned only, they had the most awful, runny, stinky poo ever! FOR THREE WEEKS!!!! *die*
> 
> However, after the "detox" period - which IS COMPLETELY NORMAL - they all leveled out. Had I known about Slippery Elm Bark Powder at that time, as well as probiotics, I would have used those to curb the runs. Since your main goal is to get kitty on 75% canned, maybe this is an option? And for your time away from home - have you considered ZiwiPeak? Yes, ordering may make it kinda pricey, but it's not like it's a food you will feed constantly. It's a dehydrated raw food, like beef jerky.
> 
> Edit: Wanted to say- the reason I suggest ziwi instead of kibble.. it may be that the kibble is what's causing more issues. our kids were FINE on kibble too. then swtiched to canned. three weeks of horror and then fine again. then when we gave them some dry as a treat now and again - guess what? HORROR! it was awful. i am convinced they add something to dry food to keep poops "uniform".


3 weeks....brave soul!  

But that's _really_ interesting....a detox period. Slippery Elm Bark is something I didn't try (probiotics, enzymes and pumpkin didn't seem to help, though they certainly didn't hurt, either). When we try wet again (next week, after we're home from our little camping trip), I may see if I can find some to try. If it will let me give wet-only (or wet-mostly) a fair trial...that'd be spectacular. I have a 2-year-old human kid still in diapers, too...so my poop threshold is already pushed to its limits.  

When I was first researching grain-free foods, I came across several discussions of grocery store type foods vs. grain-free alternatives...and more than one mentioned additives to the big grocery brands that controlled stool "quality". They didn't have any specifics, so I didn't give it much thought (though it didn't surprise me). Then, when I started comparing labels on higher-end products, I found that Yucca schidigera is common (even in canned foods)...and I think its main purpose is to control stool odor. So who knows...when it gets to the hard-to-pronounce stuff, I often stop reading. :/

I'd been thinking of using freeze-dried raw as a kibble substitute during away trips, when we finally get this sorted out...I don't think I've looked at ZiwiPeak! I'll add it to my list of products to price. Shipping shouldn't be as hideously expensive as frozen raw, anyway...


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## Lieke (Jan 12, 2011)

Keep us posted! I am curious how the poop saga will end. One of my cats, Dale, gets the loosies on wet food as well. Only the end on the poo though. Very annoying: he runs out of the litter box, not realizing there is some soft poop still hanging....it always ends up somewhere on the floor...or on the bed...ugh, the laundromat owner and I now know eachothers life story (and he is 74 years old.) 

I now do morning and afternoon dry food and evening wet food.


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

Muzby said:


> When we switched out four cats from kibble to canned only, they had the most awful, runny, stinky poo ever! FOR THREE WEEKS!!!! *die*
> 
> However, after the "detox" period - which IS COMPLETELY NORMAL - they all leveled out. Had I known about Slippery Elm Bark Powder at that time, as well as probiotics, I would have used those to curb the runs. Since your main goal is to get kitty on 75% canned, maybe this is an option?


See, this is what I was trying to get at, LittleBee.
I think your kitty's system is so used to dry that wet makes it freak out and such, which is why I recommend the 3 week try period for each food ^^


littlebee said:


> Ooooo...Elvis Night!!! (I'm afraid to ask for more detail. ;D)


It's exactly what it sounds like.
A man dressed in skin-tight clothing, lip-syncing to a dead man's music and swaying his hips at old women.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Lieke said:


> Keep us posted! I am curious how the poop saga will end. One of my cats, Dale, gets the loosies on wet food as well. Only the end on the poo though. Very annoying: he runs out of the litter box, not realizing there is some soft poop still hanging....it always ends up somewhere on the floor...or on the bed...ugh, the laundromat owner and I now know eachothers life story (and he is 74 years old.)
> 
> I now do morning and afternoon dry food and evening wet food.




Yes! Only the last bit!!! Very annoying, indeed. Unfortunately, the softer it is, the smellier it is...and b feels compelled to bury it if it smells (the firm, non-smelly stools she leaves out). In burying the softies, she almost invariably steps on it....then tracks it everywhere if I don't catch her first. My 2-year-old also likes to take her diaper off...then run around the house (no matter what's hanging on). Between the two of them, I'm quickly losing my mind. 

Morning dry (which she picks at all day) and evening wet is the schedule we've been on, too. For awhile, I was excited, because she seemed to be having better poos in the morning, which I though would probably be a predominately wet-food poo. But when we switched to the limited ingredient dry + wet, that trend almost reversed (part of the reason I'm hoping another wet food will help...I'm suspicious of the NB wet. But I could be reaching.). I'll start introducing the new wet next week, and report back if anything miraculous happens! 

I wonder if most people who feed both dry AND wet have this problem?


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

MinkaMuffin said:


> See, this is what I was trying to get at, LittleBee.
> I think your kitty's system is so used to dry that wet makes it freak out and such, which is why I recommend the 3 week try period for each food ^^


I just couldn't handle the wet-only trial right now...the extra clean-up duty would push me over the edge right now. I can clearly see my wit's end from here. :/

But she's been on half dry, half wet for weeks at at time with no sign of improvement -- then switching to wet only (same wet that she'd had, just removing the kibble slowly) made things worse. Since wet is easier to digest, and we eased the kibble out, I'd have thought we'd be in poo heaven. That's why I'm going to be optimistic (or stubborn  ) and keep hoping that it's just a matter of finding the right wet food for her. The by Nature 95% came yesterday, and we'll start working that in on Monday.



> It's exactly what it sounds like.
> A man dressed in skin-tight clothing, lip-syncing to a dead man's music and swaying his hips at old women.


SWEET. hahahahaaaa! Is it a weekly thing?


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

So I couldn't help but post an update...I'm curious to hear the reaction from y'all.

I called my vet, just to talk to him about b's poo patterns and see if he had any ideas. My vet is great, in my opinion...he's very thorough and, if there's a non-invasive, holistic, etc. way of treating something, he always puts it on the table (even prefers it, depending on the situation) along with more "traditional" treatment options. Now, as far as his pet nutrition knowledge goes, I don't really know...he does sell SD in his office...but he's never recommended it to me, so I feel like he does it for business reasons. 

Anyhoo...he thought we should go ahead and do another set of fecal tests, just to be sure (she had tapeworm when she came here, and we treated her...but we never ran another test to be sure all parasites had been evicted, and we never tested for Giardia at all). So I took an offering in, they called me just now to say all tests were negative, with no sign of anything else amiss. I called back and gave a brief synopsis of the food/poo patterns I've seen. 

And he said (drum roll)....

...feed her dry, since the wet seems to cause her problems. 

Now, I was actually talking to him through a vet tech at this point (on the phone), but she relayed my concerns about moisture, kidneys, UTIs, etc. He told her, in his practice, he's never seen a correlation between dry food and UT issues in cats, and he thinks that, given ample clean water, healthy cats will self-hydrate. The tech mentioned she's known other cats that don't seem to tolerate wet foods well, whatever the reason.

Neither of them were anti-wet food at all. I told them I was going to keep trying to work it in (if for no other reason than b LOVES wet food, maybe even more than she loves me). They were all for that (they thought the limited ingredient idea was a good one), but the tech advised that, if it seems to always cause her soft, smelly stools, no matter which sort I try, that I might consider giving up on it eventually. She said that irritable bowel can be (though not always) caused by long-term irritation of the intestinal lining, so feeding her wet if it's irritating her, even just a little, (and even if, in other ways, it's better for her), might be quite bad in the long run.

Interesting! I didn't mention that I'd like to try raw as soon as I can find an affordable pre-made source. I felt I'd taken up enough of their time for one day.


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

littlebee said:


> I wonder if most people who feed both dry AND wet have this problem?


Nope. Since I switched from dry to wet+dry Grim's poops have gotten better. Sorry :[


littlebee said:


> SWEET. hahahahaaaa! Is it a weekly thing?


Every Thursday the 'parking lot' and field across the street are PACKED.


littlebee said:


> So I couldn't help but post an update...I'm curious to hear the reaction from y'all.
> 
> I called my vet, just to talk to him about b's poo patterns and see if he had any ideas. My vet is great, in my opinion...he's very thorough and, if there's a non-invasive, holistic, etc. way of treating something, he always puts it on the table (even prefers it, depending on the situation) along with more "traditional" treatment options. Now, as far as his pet nutrition knowledge goes, I don't really know...he does sell SD in his office...but he's never recommended it to me, so I feel like he does it for business reasons.
> 
> ...


Bold part: Not true at all. (Quoting from what I've heard here and read about on Dr. Pierson's website) Modern pet cats are descendents of desert felines. Those ancestors probably hardly ever (if ever) saw water. They obtained all of their water from their prey. Modern cats will drink water when they are absolutely parched, not constantly enough to stay hydrated. (Also from what I've heard) Cats on dry food are Much more likely to develop urinary issues and the solution to that problem is usually to switch to wet food.

Underlined part: This makes a lot of sense however.

Whether you should choose wet or dry, I can't really say. I'm highly stubborn, so when someone says 'I can't get this to work' but they aren't doing Exactly what I think they should, I go into 'don't give up!' mode. (And usually take over what they were doing and fix it, which usually highly irritates people. xD)


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

MinkaMuffin said:


> Nope. Since I switched from dry to wet+dry Grim's poops have gotten better. Sorry :[


Darn. Another theory out.




> Every Thursday the 'parking lot' and field across the street are PACKED.


Hilarious! Just one Elvis, or are there several? 



> Bold part: Not true at all. (Quoting from what I've heard here and read about on Dr. Pierson's website) Modern pet cats are descendents of desert felines. Those ancestors probably hardly ever (if ever) saw water. They obtained all of their water from their prey. Modern cats will drink water when they are absolutely parched, not constantly enough to stay hydrated. (Also from what I've heard) Cats on dry food are Much more likely to develop urinary issues and the solution to that problem is usually to switch to wet food.
> 
> Underlined part: This makes a lot of sense however.
> 
> Whether you should choose wet or dry, I can't really say. I'm highly stubborn, so when someone says 'I can't get this to work' but they aren't doing Exactly what I think they should, I go into 'don't give up!' mode. (And usually take over what they were doing and fix it, which usually highly irritates people. xD)


I'm still convinced that it's just a matter of finding what will work for b. I'm going to take a little break from it (mostly to avoid coming home to a mess), but we'll start working wet in again next week. 

The whole adaptive ecology theory (desert cat = low thirst drive) makes sense to me, too...for the most part (I do think that most desert animals are programmed to take advantage of water when it is available...most deserts do have a brief rainy season). I'm a non-practicing biologist (and my husband is actually an evolutionary biologist), so I dig that kind of thinking. My vet was just speaking from his own experience (he made a point of saying so). 

Plus, b loveslovesloves wet food. 

But, yeah...if it goes on for ages...I may have to settle for dry and just monitor the hydration thing. Or hope for the economy to shape up so it won't seem psycho to drop over a hundred bucks a month on raw meat. 

I dig stubborn, too. Maybe it's a Texas thing.


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## Muzby (Jan 9, 2008)

Keep her on dry for now, until you are ready to make the switch. That is the best idea, from the sounds of it and what you're willing to deal with. Keep her hydrated, and try and be ready to switch her off asap. She WILL detox, it will take weeks. You can give her SEB powder and probiotics 1 week prior, and until the detox is done.

IMO, and I am not a vet.. dry food DOES cause UT issues. Wet food IS better than dry. B alreayd loves it, so you're a lucky cat-mommy there!  

I am also stupidly stubborn sometimes.. not from Texas though. Canuck.  

We do the best we can, with what we can. B is young, correct? Another 6-12 months of dry isn't going to seriously harm her (that said, it has done to other cats, so I cant be 100% sure but most cats are fine). When you're ready to switch to canned, be consistant and give her supplements to help her digestion.. know that you will have (as my spouse calls it) 'nuclear diarrhea' for a few weeks and expect that. This way it won't be so surprising. 

On the IBD thing.. I have it, myself. I read up on it, all the time.. never have I heard that having an irritated bowel will CAUSE ibd? Usually it's there because you are eating something your body deems EVIL (allergic reaction, basically) and needs to get rid of it ASAP. If I am having a "bad day" but eat nothing but healthy food, I will still have issues.. because my stomach was already upset by the "bad thing". My cats, as I said, were FINE on dry... wet/dry = runs then fine.... wet only = holy terror... then 3 weeks fine. I know it's POSSIBLE but I think it's highly unlikely that she CANT eat wet. It's probably just that she can't have it with dry at all (like my moms cats, and my friends cats, and my aunts cats - all the same problem as yours and once they waited out the detox their kitties were better than ever).


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## yellowdaisies (Jan 25, 2011)

littlebee said:


> I wonder if most people who feed both dry AND wet have this problem?


Nope - my kittens get both (Spencer gets less than 25% dry, Lily gets more dry than wet currently - but you've already seen my Weruva thread on that subject) and their poops are fine (albeit rather stinky, but hey, it's poop, and the litter covers the smell up in a few minutes.) 

Best of luck in finding what works for B!


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

I would do whatever makes b comfortable. IMHO, making your kitty uncomfortable with the runs is never a good idea. Either way, I hope b feels better soon.


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## MinkaMuffin (Apr 1, 2011)

littlebee said:


> Hilarious! Just one Elvis, or are there several?


Just one, he comes every week. Oh, and there is a cruise coming up leaving from Galveston. And he's attending. 



littlebee said:


> The whole adaptive ecology theory (desert cat = low thirst drive) makes sense to me, too...for the most part (I do think that most desert animals are programmed to take advantage of water when it is available...most deserts do have a brief rainy season). I'm a non-practicing biologist (and my husband is actually an evolutionary biologist), so I dig that kind of thinking. My vet was just speaking from his own experience (he made a point of saying so).


I do think it's possible that when water is available (if it is) that they would take advantage of it, but if we are going by whats built in, then cats would only be thirsty for water when the air humidity is high and it is cooler out.
I just think that because they naturally were getting all of their water from food, they just dont have enough 'need' built in to drink enough water.

But now I just realized.. if they are getting along without water the rest of the year, why would they need to drink during the wet season?



littlebee said:


> But, yeah...if it goes on for ages...I may have to settle for dry and just monitor the hydration thing. Or hope for the economy to shape up so it won't seem psycho to drop over a hundred bucks a month on raw meat.
> 
> I dig stubborn, too. Maybe it's a Texas thing.


Have you ever read Dr Pierson's website, catinfo.org?
According to her recipe, its a lot cheaper to do raw than canned.

Also, I grew up in Cali, so my stubbornness is not from Texas but WOAH are the people here stubborn. xD


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## Nora B (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi. So this is something someone else touched on a bit (giving you and b a break for a bit) but I'm going to take it a step further.

You've already gone waaaaaay careful, you've put in the research, the effort, the money and the trials.

You are currently caring for human kiddos - one still in dipes & in the midst of the 2 yr old thing.

You are taking care of birds, horses, multiple kitties, etc, etc, ....and you live far from places to shop more specialty items.

My absolute best advice for you and your is to forgive yourself a bit, try to let everyone take a slightly gentler easier path for awhile and enjoy some time with all your lovelies before you blink and it has gone by.

Hypervigilence can become a permanent way of life, trust me I speak from first hand experience and before you know it all of your little ones will big ones and you'll wonder where the time went.

It really does sound as though you are leaving no stone unturned, just be sure to take the time now to enjoy them all (I know it sounds insane but there will come a day when you miss 2 yr old diaper escapades and look fondly back at crossing the poop threshold).

Try to give yourself and everyone a bit of time without hypervigilent thoughts, try to allow all (especially you) to just love the gifts you have been given - focus a bit more on the wonder and let the responsibility aspect fade just a bit for just awile......I wish I had done that more when mine were smaller.....
N


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Nora B said:


> Hi. So this is something someone else touched on a bit (giving you and b a break for a bit) but I'm going to take it a step further.
> 
> You've already gone waaaaaay careful, you've put in the research, the effort, the money and the trials.
> 
> ...




Just wanted to dust off this thread for a second, to update those who have similar issues and were curious as to how b's diet-to-poo conversion would end. 

*First -- Nora, thanks.* I took your advice, and feel saner already. It's true...this little-kid phase passes so quickly, and is so insane...it's hard to appreciate it while it's here. Then, when it's over, you long for it (or parts of it. I think the diaper-Houdini part I'll be happy to look back on from a safe distance). 

I'm prone, I'll admit, to hypervigilance (ever since the diaper Houdini in question was born), and it's exhausting. Sadly, the more exhausted I am, the more obsessive I am. It's my special brand of crazy. 

So, here's the latest news from b's litter box (and it's positive): 

We went on our little 3-day trip and while we were away, b got into some of Sabine's dry food (BW duck, which she'd had before, but it's got chicken in it, which is still on my list of possible culprits), so things weren't quite as pretty as I'd hoped when we returned (though not horrible). 

I gave her another week or so of dry-only to normalize (and myself a few days not to think about poo AT ALL, except at scooping time), then we started working the by Nature 95% turkey wet in, a teaspoon at a time. 

We're up to 2 tablespoons a day now....and *things are going pretty darned well*. I think her stools are maybe a bit softer on occasion than they are on NB dry only (I've had to get the baby wipes after her tush a few times, but _nothing _like before and it seems to be getting better each day). It's very possible that only I would notice the difference (and slightly possible that it's my imagination). I hope to get her up to 3 tablespoons (roughly 3 ounces) by the end of next week, but I'm optimistic that this is her solution. 

I think the simplicity of this food (even compared to the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient wet) -- no fruits or veg -- makes a difference for her. We could probably go with EVO 95% foods, too, since they're also very simple (though I think we'll still stay away from any chicken flavors for a good long time, just to be safe). She'll do great on raw someday, I just know it! 

If anyone with similar issues is wondering, here's the ingredient comparison for the food's b's primarily been on. They're all great foods...but she's done best on the simplest of them, the by Nature Organics 95%. 

by Nature Organics, 95% Turkey: Turkey, Turkey Broth, Turkey Liver, Guar Gum, Cassia Gum, Carrageenan, Minerals (Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide), Inulin, Vitamins (Vitamin E, A, D3, B12 Supplements, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin), Choline Chloride, Flaxseed Oil, Salt, Taurine.

Natural Balance LID Venison/Green Pea: Venison, Venison Broth, Venison Liver, Pea Flour, Venison Meal, Salmon Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Kelp, Flaxseed, Guar Gum, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Taurine, Parsley, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sodium Chloride, Dried Cranberries, Carrageenan, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Calcium Pantothenate, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Wellness Chicken: Chicken, Chicken Liver, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Carrots, Natural Chicken Flavor, Sweet Potatoes, Squash, Zucchini, Cranberries, Blueberries, Guar Gum, Dicalcium Phosphate, Carrageenan, Ground Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, Iron Proteinate (a source of Chelated Iron), Beta-Carotene, Zinc Proteinate (a source of Chelated Zinc), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Proteinate (a source of Chelated Cobalt), Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate (a source of Chelated Copper), Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate (a source of Chelated Manganese), Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Biotin.


And, yes...I'll be sure to share all this with my vet. 

Now, I haven't been checking in for awhile (as part of my poo-free thought therapy)...so have some catch-up reading to do....hope everybody's doing great! 

*Thanks to everyone who took the time to share advice and experience with me on this.*


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Welcome back, Littlebee! I am glad that Littlebee's litterbox situation is getting better  Hope everything is going well! Good luck


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