# I will be banking my cat's DNA



## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

My little fuzzy angel is dying of liver cancer and kidney disease, and I made the decision on the weekend to bank his DNA with _Genetic Savings and Clone_. Having this option has been like someone throwing me a lifeline, and I don't go into this with any misgivings. I know any kitten produced will not be "him", only similar to him. My angel was a feral cat, and it took me nearly three years to coax him into my life. Any future kitten wouldn't have had that life experience. He had a very hard life before I took him in, and I've always wondered what it would have been like to have had him from a kitten...

Such a kitten won't be taking a home from another cat, I've always opened my door to rescued cats (I currently have three that I rescued in the house), and will continue to do so, but this little one would be something extra special to me.

It's entirely possible that, in a few years time, if my grief ever lessens, that I may decide not to go through with it. I understand what someone said about tarnishing the memory of the old cat, or even disrespecting his memory by replacing him, and I'm agonizing about that right now. It might be the only thing that prevents me from eventually going ahead with it. But I had my angel neutered before I realized that he is the cat love of my life, and I would love for his line to continue in some manner. I would view any future kitten as his son, nothing more, but I look forward to seeing what similarities there might be. 

And I'm also agonizing about the "what ifs": what if the samples don't arrive in time, what if they're damaged, what if they don't prove to be viable and I will have gone through all this for nothing. Without a doubt, this has been the worst week of my life!! If this had happened five years ago, I would have been suicial! Banking his DNA is the only thing that's getting me through this, but I understand and respect the decision of many of you not to do what I'm doing. I admire your ability to let them go, not replacing them, but moving on to a new love. It's just that I've never loved anything as much as I love this little cat, and it's entirely possible that I never will.

I just know that if I don't act now and bank his DNA, I could regret it for the rest of my life. I've had friends tell me that they wish that this had been an option when they lost their beloved. And I've had others tell me what a fantastic cat I have, and that it's a shame I didn't get a litter from him. That all just adds to the pain I'm feeling.

It's too late for me to back out of this, as money has already changed hands, and the kit will be delivered to the clinic today, but I would appreciate your comments. As I said, I may never go through with it, but it's providing me a small measure of comfort to think of what might be in the future. And this is the future, whether we like it or not. The genie is out of the bottle.

Am I wrong to bank his DNA? Or is it just part of my grieving process that I need to have this option in the future?


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

> I made the decision on the weekend to bank his DNA with Genetic Savings and Clone.


This is a personal decision, of course. However the name Genetic Savings and Clone sounds frivolous to me. Are you sure this is an honest operation? How much research did you do on this organization? I would tend to think they are not serious.


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## Snowball2 (May 18, 2005)

They are an honest company, however the state of CA is trying to shut them down.

I don't have a problem with getting a clone of your cat if you've got the money to do so. It isn't much different from spending $20,000 on a Rolex instead of $20 on a Timex.


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## Lori (Jun 8, 2003)

My deepest sympathy regarding your furbaby.   
I certainly wouldn't judge your decision, you have every right to do what you wish.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

I'm so sorry about your furbaby.
I don't have any opinion one way or the other as far as the ethics of cloning animals. I definately can understand the appeal of getting a clone of a beloved pet.
The only thing I would caution you about is to seriously look into is the health issues of the animals that have been cloned to date.

Jennifer


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

its always hard to deal with the loss of a very beloved pet.

however, I think you may be setting yourself up for another tragic heartbreak. I do believe things like cancers, liver and kidney diseases can be genetic, so the fact that you would be cloning a cat from his dna suggest that the new cat would be just as prone to having the same problems in his life.

I'm not completely sure how it works though, but in your case I think it is comforting knowing that its there if you decide to use it and if not, you won't have the nagging "what if" feeling of if you decided not to do it.

I really think saving the life of another cat can easily be just as (if not more!) rewarding. I'm sure whatever you choose to do will be the best for you personally. Good luck, you are in my thoughts!


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Thank you, everyone, for your support. It means a great deal to me to know that y'all don't think I'm insane, or selfish, or both.

I was warned by GSC that any disease suffered by my little guy will be passed along to his 'son', but he had always been a very healthy cat. I don't know his true age, but he's been in my life as a companion for 15 years, feral in the yard for almost three, so he could be near 20, or even older. His disease is recent, so I think I would have some breathing room with the new one.

As for saving the life of another cat, I would do that anyway. Not only do I have the option to adopt the baby's mother if I so desire, in my yard lurks another feral cat that I've been feeding for many months, and even put out a dogloo with a heating pad for him over the winter. I originally thought that the local cats were just treating the area as a bistro, or bed & breakfast, until recent heavy rains. I looked inside and out popped the one I suspected of not having a home. I can't imaging anyone letting their cat out in a persistant, days-long rain, so I think I have another feral cat to tame. My home will always be a safe haven for cats.


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## Trevor (Jan 11, 2005)

Don't do it.

You're fantasizing about having your sick cat cloned as a distraction from the facts that are before you: You are losing someone you love very much. That is a fact you must and should accept and there is nothing or noone that can change that. I feel your pain, but I am absolutely certain you are making the wrong decision if you choose to invest in this cloning institute. 

There are plenty of fascinating and wonderful cats already born and plenty more that will be born in desperate need of someone like you. They are in the dumpsters at night looking for food, they are in the streets, they are in the shelters just waiting for someone to come along and discover and appreciate thier true uniqueness and beauty--your next cat won't be a clone of your old one, but he is out there just waiting to surprise you by just being himself.

Take the money you had planned to give to the cloning institute(which I'm sure is an outragous amount) and invest it into helping cats already here that are in need of heros to come along and rescue them. 

Grieve for your loss, and let your little "fuzzy angel" live on forever and ever--_in your heart_.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

When it comes to saving DNA I think it's positive. I'm considering to start my own "DNA-library", not because I wanna clone but because it will be an important weapon in fighting inheritable diseases. Already we're DNA-testing Persians for PKD and soon we'll be DNA-testing Maine Coons for HCM. 

Cloning animals however is something I really don't like. Animals cloned today are born abnormally large and many of them have weakened immune system and so far they have all died quite young. It's just one of these things I really think we simply should not do because it causes physical suffering in the animals and emotional suffering in humans.

As long as you've just banked the DNA you've done nothing else but saved your cats DNA and I see nothing wrong in doing that.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

If you feel that you will be able to treat this animal as the original, different, and independent cat he will be, then by all means, go for it. I know I would give anything to have another Snuggles.

It's entirely your decision, and I know many people who would support you in it.

Lisa


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

cat_lover_forever, I just want you to know that I understand your desire to clone your cat. You love him, and your heart is breaking with the thought of losing him. I would be tempted myself, if I could be sure I'd get my pet back and that he would be healthy. What troubled me, as I said, was the name this company chose. 

Having read about the problems cloned animals have had, however, I would reconsider. Whatever your final decision is, I wish you the best. This is a very stressful time for you, and my heart goes out to you. God bless.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Trevor said:


> Don't do it.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Take the money you had planned to give to the cloning institute(which I'm sure is an outragous amount) and invest it into helping cats already here that are in need of heros to come along and rescue them.


The price has come down from $50,000 to $32,000, and is expected to go even lower as the technology gets better. No one would think anything of me spending that kind of money on a new car. Cars mean nothing to me. I drive a beater, and as long as it gets me from point A to point B, I don't give a rat's patoot what kind of car I drive. But it's wrong of me to take that money and apply it to having at least something of my angel back again? It won't be for another year or two before I consider doing this, so there's time for the technology to advance and alieviate our fears about the animal's health. 

My vet, exclusively a cat doctor, says this is a good thing. Whatever scientists can do to better understand and work with cat DNA will lead to a better chance of managing their diseases in the future.


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## Snowball2 (May 18, 2005)

There was a thread on about cat cloning on a skeptic forum I belong to.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php? ... ht=cloning

They bring up some good questions, like:

How are the queens chosen and cared for?
If they implant more than one embryo and they take, what do they do with the other kittens?
What is the mortality rate of the cloned kittens?


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## violina23 (Jun 28, 2004)

I kinda agree with Jeanie... this all seems a bit fishy to me.

I'm sorry your baby is sick, but I personally would recommend against the idea of trying to recreate your existing cat. There are so many kitties in shelters, full of love, that can create a whole NEW spot in your heart instead of trying to fill an old one. 

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

If I read correctly, the mommies were unwanted cats to begin with. The site claims they are well-cared-for (and why not? Their health and well-being is important to the breeding program). They only go through the procedure of implantation twice, whether of not kittens come from it, then they are adopted out to loving homes. It you check their site (www.savingsandclone.com) you'll find former mother cats up for adoption. If I could afford it right now, I would love to adopt Ebony!

I believe that if more than one kitten results from the implantation, you can have them at no extra cost. Twins or even triplets would be a miracle for me, and I would gladly take them all! However, if someone only wanted one, they say the rest would be adopted out to loving homes. And I have no information on the mortality rate. Many embros don't emplant, though they say their failure rate is dropping.

I don't much care for their name either. I've never been fond of puns.


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## halfline (Jul 20, 2004)

First, Genetic Savings and Clone is a very reputable company. The name is just a play on the bank title, cute.

I say go for it! The price quote is what I expected, but I was surprised with the discount. It's obvious that you know about the cancer and kidney disease being passed down and that personality traits can be environmentally driven, so you're not going into this completely uninformed. This decision IS based on a "grieving process," but so what? If the cat has brought you that much happiness and the loss that much sorrow and you have the money, then it's a done deal. Unless that $32k is going to hurt you financially in a big way, I say you made the right decision.

Keep us informed!!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

> The name is just a play on the bank title, cute.


I consider it disrespectful and crass.


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## halfline (Jul 20, 2004)

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I thought it was clever and bold. 

LOL, I just realized that the name of this cat forum was "Cat Forum"


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> It's too late for me to back out of this, as money has already changed hands, and the kit will be delivered to the clinic today, but I would appreciate your comments. As I said, I may never go through with it, but it's providing me a small measure of comfort to think of what might be in the future. And this is the future, whether we like it or not. The genie is out of the bottle.
> 
> Am I wrong to bank his DNA? Or is it just part of my grieving process that I need to have this option in the future?


I am very, very sorry about what happened to you. However, any person who had ever taken a mammalian genetics class knows the process of imprinting and cell differentiation. Imprinting and cell differentiation changes the DNA structure in the different tissues. When you take DNA from the liver, it will grow into a liver...when you take DNA from the brain, it will grow into a brain....even the adult stem cells have already been partially differentiated....and it will grow into the bone marrow.

If they had instructed you to take samples of your cat's blood....it would be a sign that they were lying to you....red blood cells rejected their nuclei during their formation and thus they have NO NUCLEAR DNA MATERIAL!!! I had never heard anyone who had cloned from white blood cells because they are extremely differentiated, even compared to skin tissues.

Even though it is possible to clone the animal from the living tissues, it requires the process of de-differentiation and it is extremely difficult because it requires the extraction of one nuclei and the microinjection of the recipient ovum. You see that is where I am going...even if you take DNA from the stem cells it would encode the information to grow the bone marrow, not the complete cat unless they de-differentiate the cell.... It is exceptionally difficult since the recipient ovum must have its nucleus removed first. It also involves the process of nuclear transfer. It is unlikely for a young, healthy cell would survive the process, not even talking about the senior, ailing cat.

Part of the cell's DNA is lost when they inject a nucleus into a egg because it is impossible to transfer the mitochrondrial DNA. The mitochrondrial DNA which encodes a lot of traits is inherited from the recipient egg instead of the donor cell. I hate it when those bogus companies make us genetics look incompetent by eroding the public's confidence in valid genetic research.

I am so sorry you had to fall victim to such a scam. I know you were very sad and you wanted to preserve a part of your cat, but it is simply not possible. The best scientits could ever do (since imprinting is not reversible AND cloning is unlikely due to the age of the cat) is to inject the blood marrow DNA into another cat embryo and genetically engineer the cat embryo so the future kitten would become a chimeric cat that has 50% genetic resemblance to your cat. Even that is extremely unlikely to happen since genetically engineered mammals have a 99.9% mortality rate.

You normally would not see a genetic graduate student saying no to genetic engineering, would you ?

Instead of doing respectable and reputable research, there are ALWAYS companies that will cash in to different scientific fads. Back then when Marie Curie discovered uranium there were people selling X-ray glasses that would supposedly see women's B R E A S T S and there were under-wears that were designed to repeal such efforts. There are ALWAYS companies that would do crazy "scientifc" things for profit. There are companies in China that will shoot your ashes to space and there are companies in California that will make your ashes into an engagement diamond. Those companies insult the real scientists and make people less willing to found reputable research. 

This year Bush is literally cutting genetic research grants in half (hey don't get me wrong I LOVE BUSH but he is making it impossible for me to afford my babies) all because of the public opinion about us being heartless wackos who would manipulate living beings for profit. Well we are not and most geneticists (especially the older professors) are remarkable wise people who are disappointed to see their reputation turned to moot because of those fad-driven supposedly "biotechnology" companies.


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## halfline (Jul 20, 2004)

shengmei, you said that this was a "scam" and that "it is simply not possible." How would you explain the companies good coverage on CNN? More important, how would you explain all the pets that were cloned? Visit their website or contact them; some of the points you mentioned were already answered. I'm sure the author did their homework.


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## jennifer2 (Mar 5, 2005)

It's possible to clone. It's already been done. You'll get a genetically identical animal. That doesn't mean that you will get the "same" animal. Just like identical twins are not the "same".

Jennifer


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

When they clone, they take mammary gland cells from a young animal. A 20 year old animal is too old to have cells to clone from.


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## clarissa (Aug 18, 2004)

> When they clone, they take mammary gland cells from a young animal. A 20 year old animal is too old to have cells to clone from.


Cloning mammals entails having a copy of the genome within a living cell of the donor in question. Every somatic cell (cells from the body) contains the entire genome of the animal within its nucleus (versus a germ line cell, which contains only half the genetic material of a normal cell - ie. sperm and eggs). Most often skin cells are used. I believe that in the cloning of the first cloned cat ("CC"), they took tissue samples from the inside of the mouth, and from the skin (cumulus cell samples- groups of cells). Cells from these areas are constantly regenerated throughout an animal's lifetime (as are almost all other areas of the body, but I'm sure it's plenty easier to dissect some skin and gum than it is some heart cells). Just because an animal is old does not mean that its cells are old and not usable- all cells go through cell life stages as well. Many cells are taken in case multiple attempts are needed, which I'm sure is often necessary. The procedure is in fact relatively easy, though success rate is low and varies between species (for reasons unknown), and future health risks are unknown, though CC is apparently doing very well for herself!


Personally, I think its entirely up to the individual - if knowing that they are able to clone their pet brings them fulfillment, and they are willing to take the risks associated with it, then I say go for it.


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## spamlet (Mar 14, 2005)

I am by no means an expert on genetics and so cannot argue expertly for or against the cloning of animals. However, my gutt instinct is to say that it is wrong, even when it is used to help save another animals/persons life, let alone to satisfy a pet owners feeling of grief. I adore my cats, but once they die I will come to terms with their death and move on, never forgeting them and keeping amazing memories of them with me...who knows what the next cat I get will bring to my family in terms of personality...I wouldn't want this to be predictable. The amazing thing about animals (and humans) is that they all come with different eccentricities, quirks and flaws: rather than recreating an old pet I would keep them in my heart forever, and make room for a new baby who I would love for different reasons. I just can't help feeling like these are dangerous games that we are playing. 

I am truely very sorry about your cat and I really wish you all the best whatever it is you decide to do. Good luck.


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## mizzkitty (Jun 13, 2004)

IMO i realy dont think that is a good idea...you had a cat that you loved..let that cat live on with you in your heart.. you dont need to clone it. I'd rather go and save a cat and know i helped another one out than clone one just for my own benefit. to me, my cat is one of a kind and i would never clone it. how much is it anyway?


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

spamlet said:


> I adore my cats, but once they die I will come to terms with their death and move on, never forgeting them and keeping amazing memories of them with me...who knows what the next cat I get will bring to my family in terms of personality...I wouldn't want this to be predictable. The amazing thing about animals (and humans) is that they all come with different eccentricities, quirks and flaws: ....


Cloned animals are not emotionally and behaviorally identical to the animal from which they were created. It would still be 'unpredictable' with its own eccentricities, quirks, and flaws.

Lisa


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

If this company really is conducting a scam, why hasn't anyone exposed them on it? There are quite a few people who are against GSC--and are even trying to shut them down--but I've heard that it is only because of the ethics, not because they've committed any crimes. Does anyone have any more information on this? As I've said, because the initial money has been spent, I will be going through with the banking...come what may.


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## Snowball2 (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> If this company really is conducting a scam, why hasn't anyone exposed them on it? There are quite a few people who are against GSC--and are even trying to shut them down--but I've heard that it is only because of the ethics, not because they've committed any crimes. Does anyone have any more information on this? As I've said, because the initial money has been spent, I will be going through with the banking...come what may.


I can find no evidence that GS&C is any kind of scam. They are a legitimate company and have cloned several cats. The first cloned cat, CC, was born in 2001 and is alive and well living with one of the scientists who cloned him.

I still think that it is your money. Spend it how you wish.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

Banking the cat's DNA is an excellent idea. It allows scientists years down the road to analyze the DNA and tell you why your cat had the particular traits, personalities, and health problems that the cat had.

It is cloning I have issues with. To clone such an old cat requires lots of recipient eggs. Even if the cloning worked there would be dozens, or even hundreds, or cat fetuses dying. I am not sure that you want that kind of moral responsibility.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> I am not sure that you want that kind of moral responsibility.


I bet she's sure if she wants that kind of moral responsibility.

Lisa


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

My conscience is clear, unless new information comes from somewhere to make me rethink things. The GSC site states that their success rate is beginning to equal that of natural births. Sounds promising so far. 

I had an interesting discussion with my mother the other day. Though she supports my decision to bank DNA, and eventually clone my cat (she loves him too!), she brought up the question of spirituality, and whether a clone could have a soul. The soul would leave my little guy, but what soul would go into the clone of my cat?

I'm of the belief that every being, be it human or animal, has a soul, whether the being is naturally occurring, or man-created. If a soul is what's needed to exist, then a soul would come from somewhere to occupy a clone.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

I believe that too. Even though that I believe that not all souls are created equal.


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## spamlet (Mar 14, 2005)

*Aphrodeia wrote:*


> Cloned animals are not emotionally and behaviorally identical to the animal from which they were created. It would still be 'unpredictable' with its own eccentricities, quirks, and flaws.


In that case what is the point of cloning in a case where it is done to 'recreate' a former pet? :?


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

spamlet said:


> In that case what is the point of cloning in a case where it is done to 'recreate' a former pet? :?


Physical form, though I'm sure the sentimental reasons reach far beyond what can be explained.

Lisa


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## spamlet (Mar 14, 2005)

Oh ok. I truly believe that it can't be a good thing...I could perhaps understand if you were able to clone your cat down to their personality, even though I would still disagree with it. But when all you will be left with is a shell of your previous cat, I can't imagine how I would cope with that: I might start resenting it, 'it looks like my cat but it doesn't do this' etc. Apart from anything my cats physical appereance is not why I love them...it is their charm, their quirks...their entire personality. 

Well I hope it all works out for you cat_lover, whatever you decide to do. Enjoy the time you have with your cat, we'll be thinking of you. Take care


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

spamlet said:


> *Aphrodeia wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Cloned animals are not emotionally and behaviorally identical to the animal from which they were created. It would still be 'unpredictable' with its own eccentricities, quirks, and flaws.
> ...


If you go to savingsandclone.com and read about Little Gizmo, his people say that this little cat is showing many of the same traits and quirks of 'Gizmo', the one he was created from. I think many of the personality traits and characteristics are coming through in these cloned cats. Though nothing is set in stone, I think one could expect a cat that's very similar to the old cat. My cat has a particularily wonderful disposition, and one of the things I'm most looking forward to is how his little offshoot will be similar. And I know there will be differences. I didn't have my little guy from a kitten. He had a terrible life in the wild for many years, so to have him from a kitten will mean that his early life will take on a different shape. I know there could be some differences, but because I didn't breed him, I will be looking at this little one as being like his son. Same, yet different. That might be the best way to look at all this.


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## cmaijer (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't understand cloning your pet. Keep the good memories in your heart and go to a shelter and get another pet that possibly would be euthanized.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

In addition to donating whatever I can afford to my local cat rescue organization, I will be adopting another cat within months of getting a clone. I want to breed the kitten so that I can continue on my cat's genetic line. My cat is a gorgeous black longhair, and I've heard from my local humane society that black cats are the least desired cats that they get. Many are euthanized because no one ever adopts them. I'm going to rescue a little black longhaired female to breed with the new guy. So I will be giving a home to a little unwanted.


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## cmaijer (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't get that about black cats. I know there are some freaks out there who still think they are bad luck. We have had Sheba for 11 years and she is the most affectionate cat you would ever have. She is also very pretty IMO.


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## emrldsky (Aug 31, 2004)

cat_lover_forever said:


> In addition to donating whatever I can afford to my local cat rescue organization, I will be adopting another cat within months of getting a clone. I want to breed the kitten so that I can continue on my cat's genetic line. My cat is a gorgeous black longhair, and I've heard from my local humane society that black cats are the least desired cats that they get. Many are euthanized because no one ever adopts them. I'm going to rescue a little black longhaired female to breed with the new guy. So I will be giving a home to a little unwanted.


So, you're going to clone your cat, then breed that cat with another just to make more black kittens that the shelter will tell you, "No one ever adopts them." ????


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Any kittens that result will stay within the family. I will keep one or two, and I have sisters (and possibly a brother) who will also want them. No cat connected with me will ever go homeless!


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> In addition to donating whatever I can afford to my local cat rescue organization, I will be adopting another cat within months of getting a clone. I want to breed the kitten so that I can continue on my cat's genetic line. My cat is a gorgeous black longhair, and I've heard from my local humane society that black cats are the least desired cats that they get. Many are euthanized because no one ever adopts them. I'm going to rescue a little black longhaired female to breed with the new guy. So I will be giving a home to a little unwanted.


Amen. I rescued four black cats. They are wonderful but none of the animal rescue organizations would take them because it takes an average of 9 months for them to be adopted 8O .

As for me, I could NEVER replace my Chester, even though I adopted five more cats and I feel happy again. I think as far as cats go, there is quality and there is quantity. You might not be able to find all the wonderful qualities of your previous cat in one cat, but you might be able to find them in a couple of different cats.


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## spacemonkey (Aug 12, 2004)

cat_lover_forever said:


> Any kittens that result will stay within the family. I will keep one or two, and I have sisters (and possibly a brother) who will also want them. No cat connected with me will ever go homeless!


Yes, but what I don't get is: why don't your sisters (and possibly your brother ) go down to the shelter and adopt the black kittens that are so unlikely to find homes? :? Doesn't that make sense? The shelter kittens need homes, yet instead of adopting _those_ kittens, you're creating more kittens :|

As a former shelter volunteer, I appreciate the sentiment that no cat of yours will go homeless. But that doesn't amount to much when the shelter is euthanizing another litter of kittens. Can't help but wonder why you wouldn't want to save their lives  The sentiment is nice, but the actions misguided.


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## skittle (Apr 16, 2005)

I don't see anything so wrong about banking your cat's DNA. I won't say anything about cloning or not cloning, because you haven't decided for sure if you want to do that yet. You say you want to wait a year or two, and I think that's a good idea. Until then, you're just keeping your options open, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

I don't expect anymone to understand my reasoning, but this cat means the world to me, and I just want his genetic line to continue.

This isn't meant as a slam against any purebred cat breeders out there, but a friend of mine once said that, instead of many of the cats being bred out there--mainly for their appearance--cats like my little guy are the ones that should be bred. He lived for years in the wilds of Northwest Ontario, surviving -30 C and even colder temps, as well as many other hardships. He lived solely by his wits. I built him an insulated shelter, which he eventually went in, but would pop out of again whenever anyone approached. I once saw him bring down a partridge. There was just a black streak, then an explosion of feathers!

I used to have dreams about touching him, and they were thrilling, like touching a lynx or bobcat, and I would always wake up disappointed that it was only a dream.

I named him, fed him and talked to him, and he began to answer back from the bush. He was more wild than the bears or foxes that would regularly come around. It was only when he looked through the window one day, watching me fussing over one of my cats, that he realized that I wasn't a threat to him. He is that smart! That very day his behaviour changed! No longer was he this wild thing that would run off if I so much as looked at him. He was suddenly cat-like, rubbing up against trees, making eye contact with me, talking to me. It wasn't long before I was petting him with gloves on. He just loves to be touched, and I was able to gain his trust and coax him inside. I took him down to be snipped a few weeks later, but I regret doing that so soon. I should have gotten one litter from him.

Many of my friends find it hard to believe that he was ever wild because of the things I can do with him. I can trim his toenails and he never even stops purring. I can brush his teeth, comb his tummy, many things that others could never do with their cats.

There's such a cosmic bond between me and this cat that I just can't let it go. An offshoot of his would mean part of him will continue in my life, through that little one, then his offspring. As I said, I don't expect anyone to fully understand, but this cat, with his extraordinary DNA and traits, simply has to continue on in one way or another.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

cont.:

I've known many cats in my life, but he's the smartest, most perceptive, most devoted one I've ever come across. Before he got sick he would always follow me around, like a puppy, and we would often know each other's thoughts without speaking. When I moved from Ontario to Alberta (driving with him in my car) they were burning stubble on the prairie, and he became very alarmed by the smell, and began to cry out like I had never before seem him do. He's a cat that would have awakened me had there ever been a fire in the house. I could go on and on, expounding on this wonderful cat, but you get the picture. Having him in my life has been the best thing ever to happen to me.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

cat_lover_forever said:


> This isn't meant as a slam against any purebred cat breeders out there, but a friend of mine once said that, instead of many of the cats being bred out there--mainly for their appearance--cats like my little guy are the ones that should be bred. He lived for years in the wilds of Northwest Ontario, surviving -30 C and even colder temps, as well as many other hardships. He lived solely by his wits. I built him an insulated shelter, which he eventually went in, but would pop out of again whenever anyone approached. I once saw him bring down a partridge. There was just a black streak, then an explosion of feathers!


Maybe you didn't mean to slam against any purebred catbreeders but you do since you're insinuating that we breed less healthy and vital cats. Serious breeders first and foremost think of the cats health and temperment. The looks comes at third place.

Why should we aim for breeding cats just because they can survive in harsh enviroments? Cats are pets and shouldn't need to survive in such enviroments (altough many of our cat breeds would and do survive in harsh enviroments). It is amazing that your cat did go from wild to tame, but if that's the thing that makes a cat good breeding stock... yeah, lets just say we'll have a hard time breeding cats. First making them wild and then taming them... That doesn't really strike me as a good idea.

Everyone (at least most catlovers) thinks that their cat is the most wonderful being in the world and that their cat is the kind of cat that should be bred, but if everyone bred their cats the over population problem would be disastrous (which it, in the US, probably allready is).


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> cont.:
> 
> I've known many cats in my life, but he's the smartest, most perceptive, most devoted one I've ever come across. Before he got sick he would always follow me around, like a puppy, and we would often know each other's thoughts without speaking. When I moved from Ontario to Alberta (driving with him in my car) they were burning stubble on the prairie, and he became very alarmed by the smell, and began to cry out like I had never before seem him do. He's a cat that would have awakened me had there ever been a fire in the house. I could go on and on, expounding on this wonderful cat, but you get the picture. Having him in my life has been the best thing ever to happen to me.


I think what she meant was that since she had rescued the cat from the freezing winter storms, the cat was very appreciative and returned her love and compassion with more love and compassion that she could ever had.

Rescued cats have a habit of doing that. I have five rescued cats and I once rescued a cat in the middle of freezing winter storms. Needless to say she was the most loving companion in the world. She would purr on my chest until she falls asleep every single night.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Sol said:


> Maybe you didn't mean to slam against any purebred catbreeders but you do since you're insinuating that we breed less healthy and vital cats. Serious breeders first and foremost think of the cats health and temperment. The looks comes at third place.


This is the sentiment of my friend. I have no opinion on cat breeders. But I know that he prefers exceptional cats chosen by natural selection. That's his choice, and he's entitled to his opinion. He would only mildly approve of me banking DNA and eventually cloning my cat (only because he felt this cat's type should be the ones to reproduce anyway).


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

I hate (actually, I abhor) backyard breeders, but I don't think any backyard breeders would come to this forum. Backyard breeders would probably not care about their cats enough to come to this forum in the first place.

All the cat breeders on this forum would be great people compared to backyard breeders.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> I hate (actually, I abhor) backyard breeders, but I don't think any backyard breeders would come to this forum. Backyard breeders would probably not care about their cats enough to come to this forum in the first place.
> 
> All the cat breeders on this forum would be great people compared to backyard breeders.


I know a backyard horse breeder who loves her horses very, very much. There's nothing inherently wrong with backyard breeders.

At any rate, I always find it interesting when I see people breeding or looking for a certain type of cat, but they don't often warrant a mention. When someone decides to breed a hybrid, they're often questioned at length about why they don't just adopt, and are informed that they're helping more pets to die in shelters, even if the breeder plans to keep the offspring.

It can get slightly hostile, and I think that's unfortunate. The people who WANT cats and produce a single litter for themselves are not the enemy. It's the people who don't care that are the problem, allowing their cats to breed wantonly and letting them stray, 'getting rid' of the inevitable litters.

Your mileage may vary.

Lisa


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

Sorry about the terminology. I had always been taught that backyard breeders were people who stole other people's purebred dogs and cats, falsifying the pedigree of the dogs and cats, leaving unsanitary kennels under extreme weather in the backyard, having animals with claws so long that they could not walk, and breeding the animals so often they often die of malnutrition. I mean THOSE kinds of backyard breeders.

I thought the term "backyard breeder" does not denote anybody who breeds inside the backyard. Rather, it denotes irresponsible breeders who mass produce puppies and kittens and sell them in bulk to pet stores inside shopping malls.

Anyhow, it would be impossible to breed horses in the house. I get hysterical just thinking about breeding horses in the living room. That would be quite a picture!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Breeding horses!!!! How cute!!!!!

I personally know a cytogenetics professor (Dr. Chowdhary) who would do karyotypes on horses for $150 each to diagnose fertility problems in horses. So if any of your friends ever had trouble breeding a horse, he would be the man to ask!!! He is an awesome guy too!!!


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> Sorry about the terminology. I had always been taught that backyard breeders were people who stole other people's purebred dogs and cats, falsifying the pedigree of the dogs and cats, leaving unsanitary kennels under extreme weather in the backyard, having animals with claws so long that they could not walk, and breeding the animals so often they often die of malnutrition. I mean THOSE kinds of backyard breeders.


Ahh. Gotcha.

Yes, the horse breeder I know is simply someone who isn't widely established and merely breeds for her own pleasure, keeping her bloodlines, selling when she can.

In the horse world, 'backyard breeder' is a small or unestablished breeding operation, no less valid than the big corporations that spring up from time to time. In fact, I favor that backyard breeders, as some large stables (like one I know of in northern Ohio) have ENORMOUS amounts of culls who end up at kill auctions. Every auction there are little ones with their stable initials. It's tragic.

Lisa


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Backyard cat and dog breeders are those who see the same breed of dog or cat and breed indiscriminately, with no regard for health, conformation, of the possibility of inbreeding and deformities. They have no idea what is in the background of the other animal. They are not interested in improving the health or conformation of the pups or kittens, only in having a litter to sell or give away. 

Shengmei, you are thinking of puppy and kitten mills, where females become breeding machines, and the baby animals are raised in barns or large cages with almost no human contact. They breed their females to death, and usually sell to pet stores. They do not steal people's animals or fake pedigrees, for the most part. They just charge more and care less.

Both of these types of breeders are considered disreputable and irresponsible by reputable breeders.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

shengmei said:


> Amen. I rescued four black cats. They are wonderful but none of the animal rescue organizations would take them because it takes an average of 9 months for them to be adopted .


I feel that black cats are simply the best cats! I think it was on a website called _goodcatswearblack.com_ where I read that black cats have been the most persecuted, most misunderstood of all cats. Because of this, they've evolved into very smart creatures just to survive through the ages. Every black cat I've ever known has been amazingly smart, more so than many other cats that I've observed.

Anyone who refuses to adopt a black cat is missing out on a wonderful companion.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> I took him down to be snipped a few weeks later, but I regret doing that so soon. I should have gotten one litter from him.


What makes you think that neutering has nothing to do with his personality??? As soon as I got all of my cats neutered, I could see a HUGE personality difference in them. They became so much more understanding, docile, tender, and loving. I would say that part of your cat's wonderful, wonderful personality traits actually COMES from neutering.


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

shengmei said:


> What makes you think that neutering has nothing to do with his personality??? As soon as I got all of my cats neutered, I could see a HUGE personality difference in them. They became so much more understanding, docile, tender, and loving. I would say that part of your cat's wonderful, wonderful personality traits actually COMES from neutering.


It's different with all cats. My friend's tom (daddy to two of my girls) was incredibly affectionate both before and after being fixed, to the point of begging to be picked up and held. He's a real treasure, and being fixed didn't change anything but his weight.  (He got SERIOUSLY fat after being fixed. Oof. It was like carrying a toddler around.)


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

I lost my angel today. Though he still seemed to be enjoying life on the weekend, last night he took a turn, weakened, lost interest in his food, and wouldn't purr for me. I knew what had to be done, though it broke my heart! 

I'm just relieved that my vet clinic took care of all the details of the forms, and arranging FedEx pickup. The last thing I wanted was to have to take that box in myself when I was distraught. Now, all I can do is wait, hope the box arrives safely--and on time--and that the samples prove to be viable in a few weeks time.

I just feel numb.


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## Snowball2 (May 18, 2005)

I'm sorry.  You have my deepest sympathies.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

I am so, so very sorry.

So, so, so very sorry


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## Lori (Jun 8, 2003)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

This is a very difficult time, I know. I wish you peace of mind. So very sorry.


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## spamlet (Mar 14, 2005)

I am so so sorry for your loss of a true friend. You are in my thoughts.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words. It's so nice to be able to come here and be with people who understand that our cats are not just animals, they are beloved family members, and when they pass on, they are not easily replaceable. I hate people who say things like "it was only a cat, you can always get another one" - they just don't get it! :evil:


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

It is impossible to replace the cat. However, I replaced my beautiful Chester with five beautiful cats. Each cat has that special something that reminds me of Chester. Nowadays my Chester is split five ways and he manifests himself in five cats.

You really should start a black cats rescue :love2


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## lilysong (Apr 4, 2005)

Oh, cat_lover_forever, I just saw your post. I'm so sorry. I lost my companion of sixteen years in December, and sometimes it still feels fresh. Even with my three girls, I find myself lamenting those things that just aren't him. Nothing will ever replace him.

Will be thinking of you.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

shengmei said:


> You really should start a black cats rescue :love2


I've often thought about this, and would love to do it, but at the moment I have no time or resources for such an endeavour. But it's something I'd love to do someday.

I have another black longhair, and to catch a glimpse of him out of the corner of my eye is upsetting, because for one brief instant, my brain thinks it's my angel, and I have to remind myself that it isn't.

Some here might find my comments to follow rather disturbing, but if I could have traded the fate of my angel with another of my cats, I would have in a heartbeat! My large, orange longhair has always been a problem cat, spraying _everywhere_, even though he's been neutered. He ruined my last house with this problem. That house is going to smell of cat urine until the day it finally gets bulldozed. My present house is shrouded in plastic. Everyday I have to mop up piddle somewhere, and many of the basement tiles are lifting! He also spends much of the night yowling, churring, and running around, even though he's an old cat. I don't get much sleep because of him, especially when he tap-dances on me. The vet is at a loss as to what to do about the situation. 

He's been on amitriptyline to calm him for almost ten years, but it only calms him slightly. I don't know of many people who would have put up with this walking 'urine-bomb', but I keep telling him that he's lucky he's cat-shaped, and I love cat-shaped things. Here's the kicker: the vet warned me that prolonged use of the medication could damage his liver. But who gets liver cancer? My angel--the best behaved, most loving cat I've ever known--while the urine-bomb is as healthy as ever, with the constitution of an ox. The gods are cruel and perverse. Yes, I'm bitter. I can't help it. Excuse me, I've got to go mop up cat pee somewhere. :x


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

cat_lover_forever said:


> shengmei said:
> 
> 
> > You really should start a black cats rescue :love2
> ...


Please know that I sympathize with you completely. I had four cats when I lost my special Pixie. One was as much of a problem as your orange longhair, and I also had another black cat, so I had almost a duplicate experience as you, thinking I was seeing Pixie. What puzzles me is that you said you don't have the resources to rescue black cats. With all due respect (and I might have misunderstood), you said that money had already changed hands between you and the cloning institution, and that the price was down from $50,000 to $32,000. That's a lot of money to gamble on the possibility of getting a visual duplicate of your sweet cat, but I assumed you were wealthy. Now I realize it must be a huge sacrifice to prevent you from doing something as meaningful to you as starting a black cat rescue. Forgive me, but the cloning is speculative. You know that you will, at best get a cat that looks like your special baby. There are many black cats who can fulfill that requirement. They are in the shelters, destined for death.

If I could be guaranteed that I'd get my beloved Pixie back, personality, good health, and appearance intact, and I could afford it, I would be very tempted, but I fear this is an inexact procedure. I do hope all works together for good, because many black cats will die that $32,000 could have saved.  Please know that you have my deepest sympathy at this very difficult time, but perhaps it would be wise to consider this alternative. It would be a wonderful tribute to your dear baby. God bless you and guide you. I wish you peace.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

I've only paid for the banking of my cat's DNA, which was approx. $1,250 CDN ($990 US), (plus an upcoming $100 yearly storage fee) and, thankfully, that's all I have to pay for now.

No, I'm far from wealthy. I just got my first full time job in four years, and I've sacrificed little extras to pay for all his vet bills, and the banking, but if I hadn't at least banked his DNA, the opportunity would have been lost to me forever.

According to GSC's site, they are getting more precise in their procedures, and the cats being born are more and more like the donor cats. In a few years, when the price drops and the science is more exact, I may end up with a cat that is so much like my little guy that it's just so wonderful to think about. There's no harm in banking DNA just in case. Even though GSC doesn't yet clone dogs (they are trying to), people are still sending in their dogs' DNA for when GSC is able. Viable tissue can be banked for at least 100 years, and a lot can happen in just a few year's time. Two years ago, I never would have though such a thing would be within reach for me. At least now I'm prepared for it.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

cat_lover_forever said:


> Some here might find my comments to follow rather disturbing, but if I could have traded the fate of my angel with another of my cats, I would have in a heartbeat! My large, orange longhair has always been a problem cat, spraying _everywhere_, even though he's been neutered. He ruined my last house with this problem. That house is going to smell of cat urine until the day it finally gets bulldozed. My present house is shrouded in plastic. Everyday I have to mop up piddle somewhere, and many of the basement tiles are lifting! He also spends much of the night yowling, churring, and running around, even though he's an old cat. I don't get much sleep because of him, especially when he tap-dances on me. The vet is at a loss as to what to do about the situation.
> 
> :x


People have mixed feelings about their cats all the time. It is not unusual. A relationship with cat is like a marriage. My grandparents fought bitterly all their lives but when my grandpa died, my grandma was very heartbroken.

I am really happy to learn that no attempts of cloning your cat has be pursued. Even though I am awed and inspired by the wonders of genetics daily (why else would I study genetics???) , the cloning process we have now is way too rudimentry to successfully clone a 20 year old cat. I am glad it is not somebody who would take $32000 from you and give you a black kitten (everybody could do that).

I used to hate Jade a lot. Actually, I abhorred him. My ex-roommate brought him home and tried to adopt him. After two weeks, she announced that her parents were cat-haters and would disown her if she kept Jade, especially since Jade was black. I was forced to keep Jade and provide for him while my roommate criticized my choices of food and litter (she thought all of my holistic foods were generic off-brands) Jade peed on my bed almost everyday. He ate a lot of my notes. He chewed through my perscription eyeglasses. He chewed through my headphones. He ate all the plants and knocked the soil around all over the apartment. He dug holes in the screens trying to get out and he dashed out everytime somebody opens the door. Many times I had to look for him for hours in the middle of the night, fearing that my ex-roommate would wake up and find him gone. He used my shoes and my curtains as scratch posts. When I brought him to visit my boyfriend's parents Jade aggrevated their cat so much that she destroyed $700 worth of stuff. I was very allergic to him. He was the scrawniest, ugliest kitten ever with huge ears and a triangle head and reddish-black wiggly stripes running all over and lots of dandruff. He had fleas and diarrhea. He pooped out wiggly worms. I also hated him because he was black and I had a lot of bad luck last year. I was very superstitous back then.

However, as soon as my ex-roommate left, I realized how much I loved him. How he was tender and sweet......docile and caring. I only resented Jade because my roommate forced me to take care of him. Jade is an angelic cat. He comes and kneads me every single night and sleep with me every single night. He is smart, funny, beautiful,athletic, and perfect. I rescued three more black cats after that, but nobody is ever as wonderful as my Jade. He is literally my favorite cat. Watching him dash to me every single day just makes my day. His fur is very shiny, almost mirror-like, and beautiful. He has beautiful bright lemony green yellow, round, large, and alert eyes.

I am just saying that feelings change a lot over time. You'll be very surprised. :!: :!:


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

shengmei said:


> I am glad it is not somebody who would take $32000 from you and give you a black kitten (everybody could do that).


Actually, GSC doesn't know my angel was a black cat. They don't ask the cat's colouring. I was only asked for the breed and put down domestic longhair, which could mean any colour. Even if the samples sent in had traces of black fur on them, that could just mean that he had black on him, nothing more. They offer a resemblance and health guarantee for the first year. Apparently most clone-related health problems develop within the first year, and I believe that if problems develop, they try again, though they report that their latest techinique has created healthy cats.


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

That is good. That is very good.


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## cat_lover_forever (Jun 10, 2005)

Just an update for anyone who is interested. I received an email today from GSC informing me that they were successful in banking my angel's DNA, and have stored more than three million of his cells, ready to be used whenever I'm ready. This is such a relief!


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## roseeden (May 18, 2005)

That is really good news!!!

Like good wine, genetics mature and get better every year. I would suggest that you wait two or three for the methods and protocols to stabilize.

It is not an exaggeration to say that every year, 10 times more stuff is being discovered and perfected by genetics researchers than the previous year. (We poor genetics students have to learn all that stuff 8O 8O 8O )

If you ever want to visit Texas A&M's cloning laboratory (after all, WE ARE THE ONES who cloned the cats first !!!!), I can be your guide. :love2 When it comes to cloning ANYTHING, we are simply the best.


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