# O_O Breakthrough!



## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

*EDIT: See below @ post# 10...now a setback *

*2nd EDIT: See cute snuggling pics on page 3!!!*

Coda still hisses and growls at Forte when he gets very near her, and they all still have real doozys of fights, and it was really sad earlier today when Coda and Allegro were snuggling/snoozing on the couch together in a pile, and when Forte leapt up to get next to Coda, purring, she hissed at him. But....

I just looked over, and Forte was on the couch, and Allegro just hopped up and started GROOMING FORTE! That's a great sign, right? Forte seems to love it. Allegro is licking his ear and back of his neck.

I'm so proud of Allegro!


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## swimkris (Jul 17, 2010)

Aww- definitely a good sign


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

That's most definitely a wonderful sign! Coda will no doubt take a little longer, but hopefully she too will come around in time. With a bit of luck, the more she sees Allegro and Forte being friendly towards each other, the less frightened she will be. How are you holding up with your allergies?


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## Breezy-Supersonic (Jul 5, 2010)

Nice! You got a new cat? Boy, i got catching up to do!


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Susan said:


> That's most definitely a wonderful sign! Coda will no doubt take a little longer, but hopefully she too will come around in time. With a bit of luck, the more she sees Allegro and Forte being friendly towards each other, the less frightened she will be. How are you holding up with your allergies?


I don't get it...she doesn't really seem *frightened*...I think she's just a nasty cat when it comes to other cats...kind of a brat, to put it kindly. She even hissed and growled at the weeks-old foster kittens. She's so sweet to us humans, though!

Thanks for asking! My allergies are weird...I can pick Forte up and nuzzle him, face directly in his fur, and feel ok. But suddenly they'll get ahold of me and I'll be MISERABLE for hours. I am going through kleenex and allergy meds like crazy. I keep vacuuming (and getting loads of cat hair!) to see if that helps.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I've read that hissing is a sign of fear, but who's to say! My Muffs was terrified of Abby at first, but she never hissed...she just ran and hid. When my daughter's cat stayed with us for a while, Muffin never hissed, but Abby did. Abby too can be a brat...and she gets away with it because she's so darn cute!

I've also read that HEPA air purifiers and HEPA vacuum cleaners are very effective for dealing with cat allergies, but I've never had any direct experience...and they're rather costly. If things don't improve for you over time, perhaps you might start a thread to see if any Forum members have used them.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Hissing is just a verbal form of communication that expressed a more direct emotion/energy: _I don't *like* you being this close, give me some space, NOW! _Growling and yowling are similar forms of communication, same as meows, merps, trills and purrs. Everything has to be evaluated together (_verbal, actions and body-language_) to determine the cat's meaning.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Heidi n Q said:


> Hissing is just a verbal form of communication that expressed a more direct emotion/energy: _I don't *like* you being this close, give me some space, NOW! _Growling and yowling are similar forms of communication, same as meows, merps, trills and purrs. Everything has to be evaluated together (_verbal, actions and body-language_) to determine the cat's meaning.


Hmmm...she doesn't change her body position at all. 
Step 1- Forte approaches her and sniffs her face or whatever
Step 2- Coda looks back at him, thinking for a few moments
Step 3- Coda doesn't move, keeps her same relaxed pose, and just slowly opens her mouth wide in a hiss, making a soft hissing noise, and then looks away from him, having made her point. Other times, just being near him will cause her to make a faint growling noise, but her tail and ears will be in a relaxed pose, and she never scampers away or anything. Sometimes she attacks him out of the blue.


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## my5kitties (Sep 13, 2005)

paperbacknovel said:


> Hmmm...she doesn't change her body position at all.
> Step 1- Forte approaches her and sniffs her face or whatever
> Step 2- Coda looks back at him, thinking for a few moments
> Step 3- Coda doesn't move, keeps her same relaxed pose, and just slowly opens her mouth wide in a hiss, making a soft hissing noise, and then looks away from him, having made her point. Other times, just being near him will cause her to make a faint growling noise, but her tail and ears will be in a relaxed pose, and she never scampers away or anything. Sometimes she attacks him out of the blue.


Everything except for the very last sentence describes perfectly Lucky's reaction to Smokey. And the faint growling...that's more Midnight than Lucky.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

We've had a setback. 

I could barely sleep last night due to my terrible allergies (it's either that or a bad cold...either way, I'm miserable). This morning I woke up a little earlier than usual, and headed downstairs to feed the cats their morning serving of canned food. Normally they're RIGHT THERE when I open the bedroom door, meowing at me...but today, no kitties.

Allegro was chilling/sleeping in the cat tree, and he woke up when I came out. I don't know where Forte was, but he followed me downstairs. Coda was at the edge of the kitchen, and in the darkness I could see her assume the "Halloween cat" scared position- arched back, on tiptoes, fur at attention, extremely bushy tail. That's the very first time I've EVER seen Coda with a bushy tail. I went to turn on the light, turned around, and saw she was staring at Forte. Forte ALSO was in the "Halloween cat" position, with an extremely bushy tail (also the first time I'd seen him do that). There was no hissing/growling, but it looked like they both were ready to attack or something. Allegro was just staring at the both of them, maybe trying to figure out what was going on.

Before something bad happened, I scooped Coda up (I was closer to her, and trusted her more not to redirect aggression at me since she's known me longer). She was tense in my arms but stayed there and didn't try to struggle or hurt me. She started softly growling. I waited until both their tails returned to normal, but didn't want to put her back down. I started to go back upstairs with her--Forte followed, but his tail bushed up again being near her. Don't know why he followed. I brought her into our bedroom, and deposited her on the bed. She started purring, being so close to her daddy. 

I went back downstairs, fed Allegro and Forte, but Allegro wasn't in the mood to eat. He kept trilling anxiously (but didn't show any fear of Forte), probably wondering why his sister wasn't there. After he ate, I picked up Forte and brought him into his bathroom. He was purring from being in my arms, but looked confused as to why I was putting him in isolation again. He didn't want to stay, and meowed when I closed the door. I brought Coda out again, and fed her canned food close to Forte's closed door, and she was totally fine. 

Hubby is going to release Forte again before he leaves for work. If things aren't going well, he'll put Forte away again. I'll update w/ the progress. 

:*( And things were going so well...


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Paperbacknovel: Based on your description, Coda sounds like she's not fearful of Forte (relaxed pose, no running away, attacking him at times, etc.). That's a good sign, and it likely means that Coda just needs a bit more time to get used to the idea of Forte being around and to accept him. I would keep trying to do good things in each other's presence (treats, playing, feedings, etc.), as you're already doing, and let time take its course.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Susan- did you see my last post (post # 10?) How should I be treating this situation, seeing that this is the first time that either Forte or Coda have shown real fear towards each other (aka Halloween cat, bushy tails)?

Oh, and yesterday, after Allegro groomed Forte, I fed them treats together as they were snuggled up to each other on the couch. Coda wanted a treat (they are her fave!), but I showed her that the only way she was getting one was by jumping up on the couch with the other cats. She eventually did, but was softly growling, and took the treat back on the floor, a couple of feet away, to eat it.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Hi PBN: Nope...your post #10 blew right by me! Just read it now. I remember that Forte is just a kitten, but how old is Coda? I ask because Muffin and Abby used to assume that pose when they were both kittens and, I thought as you did -- that it was a defensive pose, suggesting they were ready to begin fighting. I asked my behaviorist about it. He said the pose was defensive/aggressive when used by older cats, but when kittens assumed the pose, they were just being playful and it was nothing to worry about. I stopped worrying and sure enough the pose never led to anything bad. But, not knowing how old Coda is, it's hard for me to say...although Forte was likely just playing. Also, I would give Coda a treat when she's together with Forte, regardless of whether she comes up to the couch. The trick is for her to get used to the idea that when Forte is around good things happen, thus giving her a reason to like Forte...and, hopefully, a reason for her to later join Forte and Allegro on the couch, but only when she's ready.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, Coda is 10 months and Forte is 8 months, so both around the same age and mostly out of kittenhood.  Usually I do give them treats in a pile, and they all eat them while being very close to each other. It just seems like Coda's progress is going backwards.


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd still put both of them in the kitten category, although it's not clear the pose was purely playful. I know it's frustrating, but a few steps forward are often followed by a step backwards...but you will get there in time. Right now, though, I would err on the side of caution and separate Forte when you and your husband are not at home.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks, Susan!

It was really upsetting to see them like that. Poor little Coda loved being in my arms and so did Forte...why do they love me, and not each other! Allegro was so cute yesterday- he fell asleep for an hour and a half in my arms, on his back and head tucked in the crook of my arm, like a baby! Such a momma's boy. :luv

here's a bonus image! Forte asleep yesterday on top of the couch, with a little tongue sticking out!


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## ~Siameseifuplz~ (May 6, 2007)

It just sounds tense right now. Coda doesn't like this stranger in his home, he's not sure whether or not it's a dangerous animal or a safe animal, doesn't want him stealing his food, sleeping space, territory. The fact that he doesn't care to get up and move when the kitten is around, just hisses and growls shows me he is trying to intimidate him so he stays away. He doesn't want to give up his space by running away, he wants the kitten to leave. Later hopefully he'll realize the kitten is no threat.

As far as the display this morning, getting all fluffy is a way to AVOID having to fight. The cats fluff up to intimidate each other hoping that the other cat will decide he's not up to fighting a cat that looks so big and will run off. Fights may occur after the fluffing because neither cat backs down. Kittens can do this in play but can also do it for the reason I described. It's possible Coda saw the kitten or bumped into the kitten in the dark and it freaked him out so he fluffed up in fear, gave a hiss, the kitten responded to the hiss by fluffing up himself. Who knows. But do be careful picking up a cat that is so agitated or scared. Even cats who love you may redirect, I remember picking up my cat when he fluffed up after my mom turned on the blender and I got a pretty bad scratch. Holding the cat prevents him from being able to run or fight the threat and that makes the cat vulnerable. Best to try and get something between them like a towel and remove the cat once he's not so focused on the other cat.


I don't think things sound too bad right now, I think they just need time. I agree, don't make them get close to each other, let them get as close as they want and give treats for that. You can try giving treats when Coda looks as the kitten. Make sure your older cats get lots of attention and some time away from the new guy. In fact at night or when you are not home I would try confining the new guy to his own room, that way the stress levels will be able to come down for some time and nobody can get hurt while you are not there to help or stop the fight.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks Siamese.

We had him completely confined for 2 weeks at first (and being confined was really hard on Forte because he's never been confined in his life...on the streets first, and then at a rescue in a big facility), then only let him out when we were there and for short periods, then for short periods while we ran errands or were just outside...each time, there wasn't really an issue. Coda would softly hiss when Forte got very close to her, but nothing really bad. They ate together just fine, slept near each other even (Coda on the arm of the couch and Forte about 2 feet away from her on the seat of the couch). Treats all the time (though it's hard, because when I go get the treats, they follow me and aren't really looking at each other or close to each other. I have to keep the treats in a drawer because otherwise they get to them and chew through the bag. 

Neither of them were backing down this morning, and Forte looked like he was ready to attack (head lowered to the ground, staring aggressively). You're right, I should have grabbed a towel instead of picking Coda up, but the only thing I could think of was that I didn't want them to fight, get hurt, and majorly set back their progress! 

It's weird to call Forte a kitten...he's huge- a little bigger than Coda and Allegro. He's not fat at all--far from it--but he has long legs and a long body, and very thin. I guess he still is...but he's the size of an adult cat, so it's hard to look at him that way!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

It almost sounds like the two kitties became startled at seeing each other and when one Fuzzed-Up, the other Fuzzed-Up, too. Our cats will do that if someone is playing rambunctiously and races around a corner and almost into another cat, they'll both fuzz-up at being startled. 
When I see that, I sing-song voice "Oh, kitties, you silly babies. Nothing to be frightened of, it's just So-and-so playing and you got surprised. Relax, calm down, good kittehs. Want some treats? TREEE-EEEEATS! KEE-KEE-KEE's, TREEEE-EEEATS!"
Then I feed treats and pet each fuzzed cat, running my hand over their back and curling my hand around their tail to smooth the fuzzed up fur back down.

IF I felt the Fuzzed-Up cats would *not* relax under my hand/voice, then I would definitely see about safely separating and removing to isolation room(s) to give them time to settle down and re-set themselves.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

That's a good idea to distract them with treats. When I come downstairs, I'm already always talking to them (e.g.: "Good morning, kittens! Well, hello, little boys! Hello, little girl! Would you like some breakfast?") because I love hearing them make noises back to me, so I was already doing that...usually we leave one light on for them overnight, but my husband made a boo-boo (he makes boo-boos a lot with our cats, come to think of it! bad hubby!) and turned all the lights off...so Coda was probably startled. When it happened, I was saying "What's wrong, kitties? Why are you doing that? It's okay, kitties! It's okay!" but maybe that was too apprehensive for them and caused more stress.


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## NRD (Mar 31, 2010)

Been away, just catching up. Reading this thread beginning to now, it still doesn't sound that bad to me, In fact, accentuating the positive, it's just fabulous that Allegro groomed Forte. My understanding is that one cat generally will not groom another unless it considers itself close to that cat, like a family member. That suggests to me that all the aggressive fighting has been mostly play and that Allegro and Forte have come to understand and like one another. In a very short amount of time, too! So congratulations, that is terrific news.

I start with that because it is SO easy to dwell on the setbacks, when they occur, and have them overshadow the positives. There WILL be numerous setbacks. I've had Snowball out from the baby gates for over three weeks now, and usually once a day she hisses terribly at Blizzy for a few seconds. But each day they are calmer and calmer around one another. I went away for three days, just came back, and Snowball and Blizzy are still just fine around each other despite my not being there to supervise, though they remain wary. So seeming setbacks are only temporary, unless you allow them to escalate day after day.

I also think it a great sign that you are able to give all three of them treats near one another. OK, Coda runs a couple of feet away to eat hers, but that's ok at this stage. WHen I still had the baby gates up, gradually I got to the point where I gave treats to Snowby and Blizzy standing right next to one another. They were fine until the treats stopped, then Snowby ran away. But over time, without her even realizing it, she was building up her tolerance to Blizzy and spending more and more time in the same room with him, with no untoward consequences. I agree with Susan, keep giving all three of them treats when they are in the same room together, and over time Coda will come to associate the treats with their collective presence together.

That one episode of arched back and bushy tails, which does sound like a startling to me, should not undo all the progress you are gradually making. And kindly keep in mind, you went much faster than you thought you might be able to, after your initial disappointment, with Allegro and Forte, and Coda/Forte is a more challenging situation, so be patient, allergies aside. You are still moving in the right direction with C&F as well, despite occasional setbacks.

Also, I just have to tell you that Hershey sticks his tongue out the same way when he sleeps. I thought it was just him!


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks, Scott. I know we've made MUCH more progress than I'd have thought possible a couple of weeks ago. Coda is definitely a challenge. She's normally totally relaxed and chilled out, and goes about her business normally with Forte in the room--until Forte is right in her face, or he comes up to my lap while she's there, or comes up to snuggle her. Then she hisses! Coda is VERY motivated by canned food and treats, though, so I've been making sure to feed them right next to each other. They're all totally cool about it.

I was so, SO very proud of Allegro! I was like, "'Atta boy! So nice to your brother!"

Do you have any pics of Hersh with his tongue out? I'd love to see!


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## swimkris (Jul 17, 2010)

My kittens LOVE each other, but they still assume the "Halloween cat" pose occasionally when they are playing rough. It sounds like your cats are still getting used to one another, but you haven't written anything that sounds worrisome. As long as no one is getting hurt or severely bullied (like blocked access from food or the litterbox, aggressive chasing, etc.) you shouldn't worry. In addition to Forte being the new cat, it sounds like your cats are at the age where they determine dominance. Things will probably settle down in good time


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## NRD (Mar 31, 2010)

paperbacknovel said:


> Do you have any pics of Hersh with his tongue out? I'd love to see!


I only have this one, which I cropped so the quality isn't great, and his eyes and mouth are a bit open, but it does look similar to me. He does the same thing when sleeping.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

AWWW, he's adorable! It's crazy how much he looks like Forte (in bone structure).


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## lizaloo152 (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi, i have read this thread with interest as my 2 kittens are quite similar. Last night they also had a stand off with the arched back and bushy tail and i had no idea why as i didn't see what happened. the only other time i saw the older one do this was on the first sighting of the smaller one and he looked very comical with pushed back ears and walking sideways.

Anyway today although they haven't seen that much of each other there has been no hissing from the little one and the older one leaves her alones unless she winds him up or attacks him. things are getting better. i hope your cats work out their differences soon, i'm only on day 6 and am praying they work it out soon so i can relax again and stop worrying. I am waiting for that first snuggle and washing of the other to happen so i think thats a great sign for you.

Love the photo too!


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks, lizaloo! I hope things get better with your kitties soon. I'm sure it will! It's great that there's no hissing from the little one, and only day 6!

OKAY, GUYS, Guess what Allegro and Forte are doing right now? I caught it all on poor-quality phone camera (I didn't want to startle them by getting up and getting the real camera...it's near where I keep their treats so they'd probably run over thinking they were getting something!)

A story in pictures:
Forte was snoozing on the couch. Allegro hopped up and started grooming him.









Much grooming ensued. The kittehs were content.









Cuddles! Forte: "I loves you, big brother." Allegro: "I loves you too, little bro."









Grooming session over, time to chill out.









Allegro woke up and snuggled right up to Forte. Now he's the "little spoon"!









20 minutes later, and they're still like that!










So happy that they love each other!


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Those pictures are fabulous! The battle has been won with Allegro. He and Forte are clearly best friends. No doubt Coda will soon follow suit, and then all you'll need to do is buy a mask and nose plugs (poor you)!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Yay! for cuddle-cats!


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

*dances* 

Just now, Allegro went over to where Coda was snoozing in the sun, and Allegro and Coda started grooming each other. Forte looked left out, and laid down a couple feet away. I pet him so he'd feel better, and he purred. Allegro walked away, and Forte decided to try his luck. He started to lay down right behind Coda, his head gently resting on the tip of her tail. She didn't care that he was close to her, but once he curled up on her tail, she hissed and arched her back and walked away.

At least she doesn't care when he's *close* to her...she just cares now if he approaches her and sniffs her face or touches her.


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## NRD (Mar 31, 2010)

Those are just great and endearing pictures, paperbacknovel! As Susan said, you are clearly THERE with Allegro and Forte. My Blizzy grooms Hershey sometimes (they got along from day 1 and play together), but not vice versa, and they still never sleep side by side. So A&F have achieved true closeness already.

The fact that Coda allowed Forte nearby means she is well on her way, herself. She may or may not ever truly warm to Forte, but as she is learning that he respects her hissing and other signs not to bother her, she is becoming more and more relaxed in his presence. To this day Snowball hisses and runs away when Hershey jumps on her to wrestle, but otherwise she is perfectly fine in his presence, including being next to one another. So they may be "friends" but not playmates. That is fine, and so long as Coda and Allegro still get along and groom, the family will be a happy one. But who knows how far Coda and Forte may go in becoming friends? You could just end up with one big happy threesome!

Keep up the great work. Now you just have to focus on how close YOU can come to Forte without allergic reaction, so you don't end up being the one left out!


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

If Coda is only hissing when Forte sniffs or touches her, then you've come a long way from where you were a few weeks back. NewRescueDad is right...Coda may or may not ever truly warm up to Forte and participate in mutual grooming sessions but, at a minimum, I think a peaceful co-existence is right around the corner.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

I think it all sounds like GREAT news! Our Mousie was a dedicated hisser but even she eventually would give up on the hissing and learned to accept, eating next to them and sometimes even sleeping next to them, too. However, she *never* warmed up enough to play with any of the newcomers.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, it SEEMs like the hissing has become less often, but it's hard to tell. It seems like as soon as I think that, she'll go and hiss again.

Later that night, two kitties were sleeping on the couch. Forte hopped up right in front of them to join them in snuggling, and Coda hissed at him. He reluctantly moved to the other side of Allegro, but he was just a tad bit apart from them, which made me sad. He obviously wanted to make a kitteh pile.

Pic: (you can tell which 2 of them are siblings- same position!)









His eyes opened up when I got closer...it's Basement Cat!:









Sooo...it's good that they were all able to sleep on the couch together, but still sad that when Forte wanted to join in the snuggles, Coda hissed at him. Oh well, I'm content with getting my first picture of all three of them so close together!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Coda hissed ... but neither she or Forte *left* so that is still great progress!


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

As Heidi says, even though Coda might be hissing, it's a VERY good sign that she's able to sleep so close to Forte. And Allegro and Coda look so adorable sleeping in the identical position. I don't think I've ever seen a cat sleep in that position. I take it Allegro is the darker of the two with the white mittens in the middle, while Coda is the lighter of the two.


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