# cats



## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

del


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*

You may have rushed her socialization and allowed her free-access to the rest of the house too soon.  You've only had her about two months. How much of that time was spent in isolation (_bathroom, then bathroom & bedroom_) with you being her constant and only contact, learning how to be handled by you, before allowing her free-roam?



Heidi n Q said:


> My KCBC is very intense ... but it would be a good idea to read through it mostly as an introduction to cat psychology and how they react to various stimuli.
> ... *after* she has begun to allow you to pet and possibly lift her, then you can work on the socializing skills outined in the KCBC.
> ... the overall theme remains the same for handling every cat:
> Slow and steady wins the race.
> ...


It seems to me she didn't have enough positive reinforcement about learning to trust you handling her before you allowed her enough room to avoid any/all socialization work and you've now reached a point where she has possibly regressed, has enough room and the desire to avoid contact and has stalled in forward socialization because she has no motivation to allow socialization to progress. 
Ultimately, _she_, has decided: *This* is good enough and now has no reason or desire to try any further.
_It is exactly this point where I advise pushing past a cat's boundaries so you can show them the cat-human relationship can be better than what the cat is currently allowing._


Heidi n Q said:


> ...you sometimes need to push a cat who has “stalled” in forward progress beyond their comfort zones to make that cat see and accept that what you are doing is good and not harmful. With this in mind, I feel it is important to mention how detrimental it is to allow a cat to call-the-shots without pushing them beyond what the cat believes is good enough. It is up to us to push beyond those barriers and show the cat a human/cat relationship can be better.





Heidi n Q said:


> Handle her all she will allow you to. Flood her with it, if she lets you. The more you handle her the more she will grow to learn that this type of handling is "normal" and she will accept it more and more.
> Do everything you can that she will allow, she'll let you know how fast she wants to accept things.


Because this ^^^ was not shown and reinforced with Jaina during the initial socialization work you performed with her, you are now experiencing some trust-issues with her.



Heidi n Q said:


> kwelz said:
> 
> 
> > I think I may have given her free range of the house to soon and that is the problem.
> ...



You have reached a cross-roads.
Right now, she doesn't know what she doesn't know, and the only way to teach her, is you have to handle her so she *can* learn that what she doesn't know ... _being handled by you_ ... is good, pleasureable and desireable. 
I prefer to have the kitten/cat learn that before they are allowed free-roam of our home because it *is* more difficult to teach this skill when the cat can avoid contact with you.

You have two choices here:
*1.* You can allow Jaina to do as she wishes with no deliberate attempts on your part to strengthen a bond between you. Maybe she'll come around of her own accord. Maybe she won't. 
Decide if you can accept that.
*2.* You can work more dilligently on slow and steady socialization skills so she will begin to accept that type of gentle handling as 'normal' and even learn to feel comfortable seeking it out from you.

...please let me know how you wish to proceed and if you would like to hear some suggestions.
heidi =^..^=


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*

Yes I want to hear suggestions! That is after all why I posted. 
I am confident that I did rush her out to much. I felt I had made good progress and got ahead of myself. While there is something to be said for nature taking it's course, something is telling me that will not solve the problem. 

Just now I was able to pick her up. She struggled for a bit then settled for about a minute then tried to get away again. When she tries to get away she doesn't claw or bite but she is obviously trying to escape. Feel free to flog me as needed for not doing things properly. I deserve it.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*

I am absolutely NOT going to flog you, because that would be counterproductive. ...but if it will make you feel better: "Ten lashes with a wet noodle!" There, that should do it. :wink 

First. Because she *will* let you touch her and pick her up, I think you need to build on that. You simply need to handle her, getting her used to what you are doing with her, long enough and often enough, for her to learn that it isn't a Big Deal and it sorta feels *good*. She will NOT learn this until you have handled her enough times that she stops thinking about 'getting away' and starts thinking 'hey, this actually feels pretty nice!' This is creating opportunities for her to learn and accept.

I, and respected experts also advocate, pushing the cats' comfort boundaries little by little while being persistent in getting forward progress. 
You need to advance to make progress, but you have to watch the cat and retreat before you have reached the cats' threshold level of tolerance for the action. Watch the cat and continue to work up to their known limits, then use your judgment to determine if the cat is ready to be pushed just a little further or has reached its’ limit and cannot be asked for more at this time without suffering negative consequences. 
You want to make progress, but you do not want to overwhelm the cat. 
Positive experiences. 
Advance, retreat.



> Kitty Cat Boot Camp Begins:
> This is where the real socialization work starts and I begin to slowly push my attention on them. It is very important to keep every experience as positive and pleasurable as you can, to keep building on this foundation of socialization. Our goal is to show the kitten they have nothing to fear from us and we must carefully work past their fears without making them even more fearful and distrusting in this socialization step.
> I sit on the floor and grasp them firmly (gently) by the scruff and place them on my lap, facing my knees. Then I lightly restrain them by the scruff and gently pet and rub them all over with my free hand. If they begin to relax I'll loosen my scruff hold and scrubble the fur at their neck to 'erase' the memory of me holding them. Then I let them move off my lap if they wish, though I continue to pet and ruffle their fur in a pleasing, massaging manner as long as they allow it.
> The goal in this exercise is for them to walk, and not dart fearfully, away.
> ...


Again, the goal is for them to be relaxed and comfortable, not intent on dashing away in confusion or annoyance. What you may want to try at first is slowly increasing the amount of time you spend lightly restraining her to keep her in your presence, and the amount of time you are spending slowly stroking and handling her with your free hand. At first, instead of letting her walk away from you, _you deliberately set her away from you and then immediately turn around and ignore her_. Do not watch her, show no interest. You are done, you've set her aside and she can now decide what she wants to do.
My *hope* is that her reaction would be one of slight confusion and standing to look at you for a moment while she THINKS about what just happened: nothing bad happened, it may have felt good and the person set her away from him and she is not trapped or restrained *now*. We want her to think: Not. A. Big. Deal.

Good luck!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: I need your help again.*

I can only repeat what I advised before. It might be necessary to start over. Programs designed for multiple cats, I believe, rush matters. It is not necessary or advisable to apply techniques that are necessarily faster when many cats are involved. I don't think their programs are suitable for one pet. Let the cat take her time. 



> I recommend that you allow the kitten or cat to make the decisions as to when it wants to be touched. I would not pick it up until it has shown that it wants to be touched...by rubbing up against your hand. This doesn't happen in a day or two. It takes patience, a dimly lighted room, soft music, and the human being sitting quietly on the floor, with a bowl of food nearby. A book comes in handy, if you leave yourself enough light. I would use canned food, but have treats on hand also.
> 
> I would put the food at a distance that is comfortable for the kitten now, and sit there for at least half an hour. Gradually move the treats or food a bit closer until it is very close to you. When the kitten gets interested in your hand (curled fingers), wait, although it is tempting to pick up the kitten. Wait until the kitten rubs against your hand before touching it at all. Have treats ready for the kitten; that will make the procedure work more quickly. If you touch the kitten and it runs away, be patient. We probably look like giants to them!


I would add interactive toys when the kitten or cat has made some progress. And I would not allow your cat to interact with your other cats until you feel certain that the kitten enjoys interacting with you. I wish you success. It takes patience and time.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I need your help again.*

Kwelz I know how frustrating that is when a cat regresses. I’m dealing with that right now with one of my fosters. I was away, working out of town and now he’s become skittish and fearful. Then he will get courage and come lay with me but be on guard. He was totally socialized and friendly with people before this happened. 

I would recommend if she is letting you pick her up briefly, then continue to do it-- a lot. Pick her up, hold her to you, rub her different places on the body and then release her to just walk away. Act like your not going to go after her. They catch on very fast with this.

If it takes keeping her in a room with you for the evening to be able to pick her up or bring her over to you many times, then work it that way. Or sit on the floor and keep pulling her towards you to handle briefly. The important things are to watch her tolerance level and release. Ignoring her as she scoots away.

This cat isn’t going to come around on it own esp if it has the run of the house now and is reverting. If “nature takes its coarse” then it will keep reverting and avoiding you because that is what its survival nature is telling it to do from being out of door to save its life.

Continue to do the normal stuff you do with cats, like be around them when they eat, play activities but its important you keep gently push/coaxing her limits to desensitize her, to make her comfortable with your touch. Make sure while your doing this to have a calm, peaceful energy. Move slowly but firmly deliberate.

I’ve gotten good results from doing this in the past with my borderline fosters who came in from outside. It’s a loving and not stressful way to bring them around.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*



Mitts & Tess said:


> I’ve gotten good results from doing this in the past with my borderline fosters who came in from outside. It’s a loving and not stressful way to bring them around.


Yup, yup, yup! Gentle and patient repetition to help them become familiar and comfortable with being handled, that is all socialization is. Practice makes purrfect, and she'll catch on. In fact, she responded so *very* well to you when you first brought her in that I bet you'll be able to help her work through this.
It will be interesting to see what changes can occur over the next days and weeks...
h =^..^=


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*

I tried handling her as much as possible and if anything it seemed to be making things worse. So I have decided to go back to square 1. I am isolating her to the bathroom again. I think I may put a small radio in there for human noise when I can't be around.  But honestly her cries are killing me 

And just for your viewing pleasure.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I need your help again.*

What a sweet picture to start my day! Thanks!


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*

May I ask some questions? 

What was she doing when you tried to handle her?
Was she trying to get away and then began to avoid you every time she thought you were coming her way to handle her again?
How were you handling her when you did touch her?
How was she reacting to that?
What did she do when you were done handling her?
Do you think she would let you handle her if you used treats as a reward to simply keep her near you when you release her after you've handled her?

Okay, that was a LOT of questions. :lol: 
I am sorry for asking so many, but with greater detail we'll get a better picture of what is going on with her. I think you made a good move isolating her again so you can concentrate on her looking forward to interacting with you. You may not need to keep her in the bathroom if there is another small room you could use, like an office or bedroom, or even if the bathroom is attached to another room she could use.
h


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*



Heidi n Q said:


> May I ask some questions?
> 
> What was she doing when you tried to handle her?


She moves to get away from me if I try to pick her up when in the house. However if I put her in the Bathroom for a while she goes out of her way to rub up on me. But once she is back in the general house she run again. 



> Was she trying to get away and then began to avoid you every time she thought you were coming her way to handle her again?


Yes



> How were you handling her when you did touch her?


Soft petting, gently holding her while giving her a way to jump down if she really wanted to. 



> How was she reacting to that?


Tense but she accepts it for a bit before trying to get away.



> What did she do when you were done handling her?


Jumps down, and gives me a dirty look

[/quote]
Do you think she would let you handle her if you used treats as a reward to simply keep her near you when you release her after you've handled her?
[/quote]

I have tried this with mixed results.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*

Hmmmm. I don't have much time right now, but I'll get back to this later today/tonight. 
Maybe Merry will see and have something to offer.
h


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*

Thanks ladies. I appreciate it. This is really heartbreaking to me. It is the first time I have ever had trouble with an animal. =(


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: I need your help again.*

You could put her food (canned food, preferably) on your lap for every feeding, and let that be the only opportunity she has to eat. Pet her gently while she eats, and if she hisses, take away the food. This worked with a "psycho" kitty that I had. Eventually, she liked the attention so much she sought it out. I don't know if this will bring permanent results, but it very well might, and it's worth a try. Good luck.


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*

When I have her isolated this works great. Keeping her Isolated however has proven difficult. 

One thing to note. She has at no point Hissed at me or scratched at me since the first few days I had her. 
The worst she has done is raised her paw and swatted at me in slow motion with no claws. It is actually kind of cute when she does it. Like she can't decided if she should do it or not then just figures she will reach out and tap me.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: I need your help again.*

It is cute.  Could you just keep her in a room with you while the other cats are eating? You want every interaction with you, whether eating or playing to be special.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again.*



kwelz said:


> She has at no point Hissed at me or scratched at me since the first few days I had her.
> The worst she has done is raised her paw and swatted at me in slow motion with no claws. It is actually kind of cute when she does it. Like she can't decided if she should do it or not then just figures she will reach out and tap me.


I actually think this sounds promising; she *is* communicating with you and she is doing it in a very controlled and benign manner, not being offensive or aggressive at all. It sounds like she just isn't sure about being handled.
There are two ways to approach this:
1. You can sort of back off and hope that she comes around of her own accord. Sometimes this works, but sometimes it doesn't. 
2. You can continue trying to handle her multiple times a day in hopes of getting her accustomed to being handled. But like you've already described, she is now trying to avoid being handled.
...and since she's already had the run of the house with the other kitties, she doesn't like being contained again.

Actually, in reading those two points I think there is a THIRD way that COMBINES the BEST of both of those methods!
Back off and let her relax. Use feeding-time when she is food-driven, and sleeping-times when she is slow and relaxed, as your handling times. _Hissing is simply a cat's way of telling us it is uncomfortable with how fast things are progressing, so just slow down to the point where it doesn't hiss when you offer the food. This does two things: It shows the cat you are listening to it and lets the cat know you are respecting its' space and boundaries._ Since your kitty isn't hissing, I think you are beyond that first major socializing hurdle, but I do think using food is a great tool for getting closer to a kitty and being able to touch it and help it realize touch isn't 'bad'. That first step opens more possibilities of 'other things' also not being 'bad'.
Do you feed all of your kitties together? 
Can you sit next to all of them as they eat? 
Close enough to pet them all? 
If so, I'd do that. Pet her slowly and gently as she eats with the other kitties. She will probably 'watch' you and/or shift her feet to place her as far away from you as she can while still being able to eat. Just pet her a few times and be happy with that, doing that at each feeding and watching her responses and seeing if she relaxes about it when she realizes she is only going to get petted for a few touches and then she can eat in peace while you sit there. When she begins to relax, then you can pet a few more times, or for longer, as she eats. Watching her body-language to see what she is/isn't comfortable with and trying to stop petting her before she *shows* her discomfort. If she'll let you pet her 3 times before she gets shifty-footed, pet her only twice. Periodically try petting more and seeing if/when her shifty-footing tolerance for petting changes and shows progress.
You could also try vigorous play sessions, allowing her to play-Play-PLAY all-out and trust that she can devote her entire attention to playing and not 'watching' you. This will help her to become comfortable with you in all areas; slow/relaxed and fast/fun.

This could take a long time, but the rewards down-the-line will be worth it. You've got all the time in the world. I felt just like you with several of our own feral kitties, and some of my fosters. Progress was so slow, I kept wondering if I was doing the right thing and/or if they were tameable at all ... but they were, it was simply their time-table was slower than I had experienced, so I slowed myself down to their speeds and progress WAS made.
You can do it, and she'll slowly realize life with you IS wonderful.


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again.*

I just thought you all would like an update. 
Jaina is doing well. She is not loving like my other cats but she will let me pet her and sometimes pick her up. She is growing and developing well.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

Wow! 8O She is beautiful, and I love :luv her delicate and refined muzzle. She's so pretty....


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

I thought you especially would approve. 
She has even gotten to the point where she will climb on me when I have food and be nosy. Normally I discourage this but with her it is progress I am not willing to stop LOL. 

Her fur really is beautiful. It seems to be triple layered and almost reminds me of rabbit fur. 

The photo makes her look a bit thicker than she is. Her build is actually very lean.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

She looks like a small and delicate cat. Is she tiny? ...and your description of her fur makes me want to pet her!


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

She isn't a large cat but she is still growing. Not sure how big she will get. And no. My kitty. You can't pet her. :twisted:


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

*_crosses arms and pouts_* Just once? I'd only stroke her fur once...


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

She exoodes sweetness! :luv Good job on all your efforts with her. Its always nice to hear feed back!


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## kwelz (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

Fine fine, you can pet her. :lol: 

And yes she is a very beautiful cat. I wish she was a bit more loving but I love her no matter what.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: I need your help again. Long overdue updates inside*

Woot-woot! Pouting-time is _over_, I get to pet the kitty, uh-huh! Woot-woot! *_does victory dance_*


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