# Giardia or coccidia? Fecal question



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

So, the history of my kitten...

I have an about 6 month old male kitten named Sam. I adopted him from a rescue about 3 weeks ago. When I adopted him, his foster mom told me he tends to get diarrhea sometimes, especially if he is fed canned food. I took him to the vet last week and got a fecal test to see if he had any parasites, and it came back negative. His feces smell awful though, and they are very soft and just sort of sludge together in the litter box, and scooping it is a nightmare, I have to hold my breath. He is acting fine though, still hyper and crazy, eats fine, drinks lots of water, and I give him canned food every other day, even though I would like him to have it everyday, I don't want to upset his stomach too much. The feces are a normal colour though, still dark brown, just the smell and consistency of it is way different from my older cats. 

The vet suggested I switch his food, I was feeding the Wellness kitten food, and am currently switching over to the Royal Canin kitten food. My vet suggested either Royal Canin or Science Diet, so I chose RC. I was reading a thread about giardia and coccidia and how it usually can't be found in fecal tests, so could it be a possibility that my kitten has one of those? Should I just call the vet and ask for medication for coccidia, and if that doesn't clear up the diarrhea, ask for medication for giardia? I feel bad that he always gets diarrhea. 

With the Royal Canin kitten food, I would like to switch him over to a different food again when his stomach problems get better, either back to Wellness or try Natural Balance. I would really like to feed both of my cats the same food, the only problem with that though is my older female (4.5 year old Kiichi) has FLUTD and is currently on the Royal Canin Urinary S/O just because it seems to be the only food keeping her from getting more crystals and blood in her urine. The main thing I have to stay away from is fish ingredients for her, because that's what seems to worsen her urinary issues. I have been reading about the Natural Balance and their Chicken and Pea formula is something I am interested in purchasing for my cats because it does not have any fish ingredients, except for fish oil which is fine, and I really like the ingredients, and she LOVES chicken. However, would the Natural Balance be safe for a cat with FLUTD? In the past she has been VERY prone to urinary tract infections. 

So to sum that up, my two main questions are : Should I just get medication for coccidia and giardia from the vet for my kitten to see if that clears up his soft poops. 

and two: Would it be safe to feed Natural Balance chicken and pea formula to a cat who has FLUTD. 

Any feedback is appreciated, thanks


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I would have the vet run another fecal and check for giardia and coccidia. Different meds, so if you can find which it is it will get you to a solution sooner. Another parasite that can be looked for is T. Foetus, much rarer than the other two, but it's certainly a possibility. 

If none that does it, then I'd look towards the food. Personally I'm not fond of kitten formulas, always seem to give my cats diarrhea. You can go with an all lifestages food or as far as I'm concerned, foods like Wellness are so much better than supermarket brands that giving a kitten adult Wellness is far superior than something like Purina kitten. 

Corn, wheat, soy and fish are all allergens, so any of those could be causing your issues...and I can definitely relate...fish gives Holly explosive diarrhea. Even a tiny little bit will make her poop very soft. 

For your FLUTD cat....the best thing for her is wet food. Feeding dry, even a specialized diet is completely counterintuitive for a cat that is forming crystals. And I'm pretty underwhelmed with your vet...for putting a cat with FLUTD on a dry food and the recommendation of Iams and SD, which, while better than Friskies, Purina and Meow Mix, are still pretty much junk. 

Since I have to avoid it, I know there are plenty of fish free wet foods out there to choose from. Just make sure to read the ingredient list on the labels, the fish may not be identified in the flavor name.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

For my FLUTD cat, she is fed only a small amount of dry food everyday, then the rest of the day I give her the Royal Canin Urinary S/O canned food with some extra water mixed in. I like to give her the dry food for when I work an 8 hour shift since I obviously won't be able to prepare canned food if Im not there; but I still give her canned food that morning before I leave for work, and that night when I get back from work. Another reason why I still feed her dry food is to keep her teeth cleaner, because when I fed strictly wet food a few months ago she got some plaque build up, and with the small amount of dry she gets now, her teeth are cleaner. I would brush her teeth if I could, but she is very stubborn and hates anything around her mouth, and even hates getting her nails trimmed. 

So do you think I should just return the Royal Canin food to the pet store I got it from and get Natural Balance for my kitten instead? Maybe I should give that a try before getting his feces examined again? And yeah I agree, my vet recommends some pretty crappy foods, the best one I could choose from was the Royal Canin. Before my older cat was diagnosed with FLUTD I fed her a holistic grain free food too, but after she started having problems about a year ago, I had to switch her. I held it off for as long as possible, and even switched her to just holistic fish free canned food for about 3 months, but she was still getting the UTI's, so I had to switch over to the RC Urinary S/O to my dismay, and it has kept her UTI free for about 5 months now. I also don't like how it has corn and corn gluten meal, because I have noticed it has made her gain a little bit of weight, and she has always been a slim cat. When I first brought her to my current vet, about 7 months ago, he mistakened her for a 6 month old kitten, she was about 3.6kg in October of 2008, and right now she is about 6.4kg, my vet said the weight gain can also be contributed that she got spayed in February, yes she was 4 when she got spayed, I just really didn't want to get it done because I heard it does make cats gain weight, but my previous vet said that getting her spayed could help with her urinary issues. So she used to be about 5.5 pounds, and now she is about 10 pounds, and I think it does have sometime to do with the food. Because when she was on the holistic diet, she was slim and fit. And now I'm sort of rambling lol. 

Another idea I just had, what if I mix a bit of the Royal Canin Urinary S/O dry food with the Natural Balance chicken and pea formula and if she doesn't get any UTI's, then I could fully just switch her over to the Natural Balance, but of course, still give her lots of canned food, and instead of just the RC Urinary S/O I can switch up the flavours with fish free formulas. I'm just worried that she may get another UTI, I'm kind of crazy when it comes to my cats and I just want them to be healthy and happy >.< and I get worried veryyyy easily and start to freak out if something goes wrong lol.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

As I said...I'd be looking for the parasites first, they're much more likely than a food issue. 

I wouldn't be giving an FLUTD cat and dry food at all. A cat can go 8 hours without food with no problem. I don't know enough about FLUTD to say more than that, maybe someone else will have some info. If you need to be away and miss a mealtime, you can get a timer feeder with an ice pack to keep the wet food fresh.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Doodlebug, I will be calling my vet tomorrow and telling him to run more fecal tests. I will collect 3 samples from my kitten and ask for them to be sent out to the lab and test for coccidia, giardia, and T.Foetus.


----------



## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

I agree with Lisa on all fronts.
Look for parasites first. It's highly unlikely that a kitten would have food allergies or intolerances. Although not unheard of.
Wellness _is_ an all life stages food so you can feed the regular formula to both cats. The kitten formula is really no more than a marketing ploy. It's not necessary and does seem to cause diarrhea in some kittens. Too rich, I guess.
As for your FLUTD kitty. Unless she has a particularly bad case, the prescription food isn't really necessary. The most important component is high protein and _moisture_. You should not feed her _any_ dry food. Or treats or snacks. If you noticed more tarter when she was on only wet it was more likely a coincidence as dry food cleaning the teeth has long since been disproven. It's a complete myth. In fact there is some data that points to it possibly being worse because of it's high carb content. It's also a good idea with cats that are prone to UTIs to add a little spring water to their food. The more moisture you can get in them, the better.
There are also studies that have shown that fasting between meals is very beneficial to cats, especially FLUTD cats. The reason being is, when food is always available, the system tends to become too alkaline. Periods of fasting (IE: picking the food up between meals) allows the body to naturally become acidic. Which is what the prescription foods are doing. Danger with them though is, they can make it too acidic and then your kitty ends up with oxalate crystals. So, as I said, unless she has an extreme case, better to just have her on a good, high protein, wet diet. And not having food out for her while your at work will not hurt her at all, in fact it's probably the best thing.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

The coccidia and giardia should be able to be done right at the vets office. Do those first. If no results, then do T. Foetus.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, I just opened a new bag of the dry food for my FLUTD cat, when that is all done, I will try to switch her over to just wet food again, and MAYBE I can try and get her used to brushing her teeth, it would be a dream come true, even trying to cut her nails is such a hassel. For the canned food I was thinking of giving her (all the ones with no fish ingredients) Evo, Natural Balance, Before Grain (maybe she will end up liking it), and I completely forget what else atm lol. For the kitten, I will be returning the Royal Canin kitten food and switching him over to Natural Balance chicken and pea formula. And I only use spring water for both their water dishes and for their canned food, I never ever give tap. And I was sure I mentioned this before, but I'll just mention it again, with my FLUTD cat I mix in lots of extra water with her canned food to give her more water intake and its the only way she really enjoys eating the canned food, just licking it up. And when I am at home, I take the food away for a few hours then put some down for her, let her eat, and take it away again, but the kittens food is always down for him - which oddly enough my FLUTD cat stays away from his food at all times lol.


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

All flavors of Natural Balance wet food have fish in them, except the Chicken and Liver. Before Grain wet food is not nutritionally balanced and is designed to be fed in conjunction with their dry food. It would be okay as an occasional treat, or part of a rotation, but not a steady diet.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Which canned foods would you recommend then?


----------



## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I feed Wellness chicken, turkey, Core (chicken/turkey). The beef doesn't have fish, but mine don't like it. Natural Balance chicken & liver. Merrick...Thanksgiving, Pot Pie and one other I forget. They also have some beef flavors without fish, but again my crew doesn't like beef. Eagle Pack...chicken and lamb, duck. Nature's Variety...chicken, lamb...I think none of the Instincts line has fish. I would feed the EVO 95% but they disagree with Maggie.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Alright I went to the petstore today, spent an hour in there lol. 

For my kitten I bought the Natural Balance Green Pea and Duck formula and started mixing it in slowly with his other food.

For my FLUTD cat I went nuts with shopping, I bought a variety of different cans, just one of each to see which ones she likes best, here they are :

Wellness - Turkey and Duck in the packet, Core chicken turkey and chicken liver recipe .... she never liked any of the other flavours offered from Wellness in the past so I'm just sticking with those 2.

Performatrin Ultra (pet valu brand) - Turkey stew, and chicken stew, she loves them and they are fish free and they also have cranberries  

Regular Performatrin (pet valu brand) - Chicken, turkey, chicken and lamb, beef (trying beef out, she doesn't really like beef but I have not tried this particular brand, so she might just) 

Natural Balance - Chicken and liver, Duck and green pea

Eagle Pack Holistic Select - Chicken and Lamb formula, the only one with no fish. 

I spent an hour in the store just reading all the labels and ingredients and discussing different options and foods with my friend who works there. Her cat also has FLUTD and she feeds the same foods I just bought and her cat has not had any UTI's or other problems. When I called my vet earlier today I asked them about switching her to different canned food just so she has more to choose from and a variety of flavours, and they said I shouldn't because she will more than likely get more UTI's, but I'm thinking this is just to scare me so I keep buying the food from their office - well I'm hoping that's what is going on, it would kill me if she got another UTI  I also bought her new dry food, the Wysong Uretic, I will only feed a little bit of that per day, I am going to make her wet food 90% of the day, and just give her 10% dry food, because she does like to crunch on stuff too. The Wysong Uretic is formulated for cats with urinary issues, and my friend who works at the pet store with the cat with FLUTD feeds that to her cat and says it's a good food. I can't take her off dry completely, because she does love it, but 90% wet to 10% dry is pretty good, so I'm going to leave it that way. When I brought all the cans home today, she was so excited sniffing around, and Omg when I opened the one can she just went nuts, meowing, trying to jump on my lap, circling me, it was adorable lol ( she does not do this with the RC Urinary S/O because she is bored to bits with it) 

So what do you guys think? Good start on the canned foods? Oh, and I would try the Merricks, but in the past when I did, she would just take one sniff and walk away, she didn't really like it. And, the only EVO they have is the regular one which has fish in it, but I am asking them to order me in the 95% chicken and turkey, 95% duck, and 95% venison. Not going to bother with the beef, doubt she would like it. I'm hoping she will like the duck and venison though.


----------



## velvet6 (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow. Check you out with all your research and shopping. Good on you!

You're feeding them good quality wet, you're avoiding the fish. I'd say that's awesome.



> When I called my vet earlier today I asked them about switching her to different canned food just so she has more to choose from and a variety of flavours, and they said I shouldn't because she will more than likely get more UTI's, but I'm thinking this is just to scare me so I keep buying the food from their office - well I'm hoping that's what is going on


I'd take what your vet says with a grain of salt...just like you're doing. 'Cause, yeah. It's very likely that they just want to make some more money (worst case) or they really are convinced that this is best for your cat (best case). If it's the latter, then I would say that vets don't know everything. I read an article once saying that most of what a lot of vet know about feline nutrition is based on a few very brief sessions during their education, generally run by prescription pet food companies. Anybody detect some bias there? Heck, even HUMAN doctors will push all sorts of stuff on their patients that's no good...but the almighty pharmaceutical industry says to do it and so they do it. 

I had a friend who once adopted a shelter cat. No one wanted it because it was UTI prone and it was stuck there for years, poor thing. When she discovered that all they were feeding him was dry, she took him home, started him on a good wet food, and voila. UTI issues gone. The shelter was amazed by the "miracle." My friend told them where they could put it.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Thank you  that's the canned food I used to feed my FLUTD cat when she was on all wet food about 7 months ago, but my old vet scared the **** out of me telling me how bad it was for my cat and that I need to switch her to RC Urinary S/O right away or her urinary problems could get worse. And silly me, I get scared easily when it comes to my cats, so I believed them. However, I am going to give this a try again, because the RC cans have by-products in them, while the ones I have now are holistic and 10x better. And I completely agree with you, most vets know nothing of cat nutrition because it's usually Science Diet which does the little nutrition course in vet schools, and vets would need to take an additional 1 or 2 years, can't remember which, for another nutrition course, which is what my friend at the pet store did just to learn what's good for her pets, and she took the course and is a total pro with foods for cats and dogs, she is my go to person for cat advice lol. 

With my kitten, I am going to just keep him on the Natural Balance duck and pea and see if that resolves his diarrhea issues, if not, then I will get the fecal tests done. Oh, when I called the vet earlier today, I also asked about how they do the giardia and coccidia and the vet tech said that they can see coccidia in the microscope and when they did my kittens test last week they didn't see any, so I asked about the giardia test, and they say they only need one sample. But then everyone on this forum is saying 3 samples, because the cysts don't always drop with each poop. If I do end up doing the giardia test, I will bring in 3 samples no matter what and tell them to check all 3 lol.


----------



## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

Sounds good.
I know your kitty loves the dry (that's why its often referred to as "kitty crack"!  ) but I urge you to cut it out completely. Cats that are prone to FLUTD and continue to eat any amount of dry are far more likely to have a recurrence.


----------



## velvet6 (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey, have you considered mixing in some canned pumpkin into his food? It may help to firm up his stool while you and your vet work to determine what's causing the diarrhea.

It's also a good remedy for constipation.

And I was curious...is your kitten a goat cat like mine? My cat will eat anything...paperclips, rubber bands, paper, tissue, plastic, foil, etc. His eating habits usually result in puking incidents. I've learned to be very careful with what I leave out.

In your case, your kitten's body may be dealing with any foreign objects swallowed through diarrhea. Or not. Just a thought. Have you noticed anything unusual in ye olde litter box...besides the nasty surprises you've been cleaning up lately...poor you.

In any case, I hope he feels better soon.


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

No he's not a goat cat lol, he only eats his food and the occasional treat when I give him one. I haven't noticed anything weird in his litter box, he's pooped the same since the day I first brought him home (about 3 weeks ago), and before I adopted him, his foster mom told me he does get diarrhea. I just don't get why it would be lasting so long. Just regular canned pumpkin? I have never tried that, didn't even know it was an option lol. How much do I mix in? And do I mix it with every meal or just once a day. Wet food, or dry food? And Nanook, maybe you're right, I will try to wean her off of dry food, it may take a little while though, because if I take it all away at once she will be angry with me, and may try to make her way to the kittens food. One more thing, my vet mentioned Glucosamine and chondroitin, which is a joint supplement for cats and dogs but has been shown to promote urinary health by producing a protective coat on the bladder wall and help to repair it. Should I maybe give that to my FLUTD cat?


----------



## velvet6 (Dec 17, 2008)

You know, I just googled it and I'm not so sure anymore. One of the links I found states that too much fiber in a young kitten's diet will interfere w/nutrient absorption. 

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cats-1606/fe ... ittens.htm

But this is for a VERY young kitten and yours is older so I think it should be ok. Do you suppose you could call your vet and check to be sure?

Now, if you do decide to try it out...yes, canned pumpkin. Not pumpkin mix. Pure pureed pumpkin. Try mixing in about a teaspoon once a day with food (though some cats will be happy to lick it up without food) and see what happens. I think a tablespoon a day is as far as you should go (though I could be wrong). I did this with a diarrhea episode with my kitten when he was about 7 months old.

Hopefully, other people will chime in with their suggestions.

Oh...and I'm afraid I have no idea about the glucosamine. Sorry. But I truly think that if you keep her on a good quality wet food and make sure she gets a lot of water in her, your UTI incidences really should be nonexistent. The water will flush things out and if I remember correctly from my long ago science lessons, plant protein (such as that found in the kitty fast food that's sold and advertised) can do all sorts of things to mess with kitty's system in a way that animal protein (for which kitty's body is designed) doesn't.


----------



## nanook (Jun 12, 2005)

A teaspoon should be plenty. Pumpkin is the wonder food!


----------



## KatBudz (Jun 18, 2009)

Yeah, he is about 6 months old, give or take a few weeks. The adoption agency isn't 100% on how old he is because they found him as a stray when he was a little wee baby. I will pass on the pumpkin for now, see how he does with the switch to Natural Balance, and if the diarrhea continues I will call my vet and pick up some baggies to put his poop samples in then bring them in. They said I only need one fecal sample, but I am just going to bring 3 in anyways, since I read the cysts don't show up in every poop. Thanks for the awesome suggestions 

my vet mentioned Glucosamine and chondroitin, which is a joint supplement for cats and dogs but has been shown to promote urinary health by producing a protective coat on the bladder wall and help to repair it. Should I maybe give that to my FLUTD cat?


----------

