# Sand cats are so cute. Nature has outdone breeders



## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... 69825/1042


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

OMG!!!! It looks like a cartoon kitty! So cute!!!!!


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## ShAzZa_UK (Dec 29, 2009)

Aww, the kitten sanbd cats are uber cute! :luv 

They seem to lose their distinctive stripes in adulthood, just like lion cubs and their spots, pretty little things


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

I never knew such tiny cats existed in the wild. The real wild, not the suburbs.


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

Theres a video at youtube that claims they'll take your arm off if frightened...I find it hard to believe.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

It depends on who produced the video. 

There's a place called BigCatRescue near me that used to have an overly dramatic video on Youtube telling people that Bengal's are too dangerous to keep as pets. They've toned it down after complaint videos were posted but it was garbage.

Rae can respond to them.

Edit...I was wrong again. They're complaining about Savannahs. Still too dramatic.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Dave_ph said:


> There's a place called BigCatRescue near me that produced an overly dramatic video on Youtube telling people that Bengal's are too dangerous to keep as pets.
> 
> Rae can respond to them.


And I shall. Those people who say that Bengals are dangerous are NUTS! They are no more dangerous than any other cat and MUCH more easily trainable than any other cat I've come across. 

The only "Bengals" I would worry about keeping as pets would be cats of the "foundation" generations F1 through F3. The more ALC in the cat the more dangerous it would be to keep them but 1/16 or less Asian Leopard Cat (ALC), which is what you see in a standard Bengal doesn't make much of a difference from your normal cat. 

Although some breeders say that, if handled, trained and habituated enough to humans even a F1 (half ALC) can make an ok pet but they are definately NOT for everyone.

The only way I can see a Bengal being a problem is if they are mistreated and given free reign to do what they like. If not given love, attention, "rules, boundaries and limitations" (to quote Cesar Milian, yes it applies to cats, horses, skin-kids as well as dogs). My Bengals were raised underfoot at the breeder's house (not caged) and were given love, attention and rules and they don't bite, or scratch on purpose.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

They complained about F1, F2 Savannah's. Sorry I let work get in the way of my correctly posting on cat forum (; 

Savanannh owners gave them a beating on Youtube.


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

Dave_ph said:


> It depends on who produced the video.
> 
> There's a place called BigCatRescue near me that used to have an overly dramatic video on Youtube telling people that Bengal's are too dangerous to keep as pets. They've toned it down after complaint videos were posted but it was garbage.
> 
> ...


It was in fact bigcatrescue IIRC lol


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Dave_ph said:


> .... Sorry I let work get in the way of my correctly posting on cat forum (;.....


Well, we'll let it go _this_ time... :wink: 

The kittens are adorable! I'm glad we will be able to protect this beautiful cat.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Mostly I just sit around knowing esoteric stuff and surfing the net all day but 3 people, 3 different people, came up and bothered me today. It was disconcerting.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

*It was in fact bigcatrescue IIRC lol*



:lol: Figures.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

> Mostly I just sit around knowing esoteric stuff and surfing the net all day but 3 people, 3 different people, came up and bothered me today.


How rude!


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Remarks from the guy at Big Cat rescue in Tampa:

"cats never like other cats"

"hey look, even when you're talking about house cats what's the odds...only about 50% of them like people"


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

How can they be so clueless???


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Pfffft! Spit! Spit! Rrrooowwwwrrr! Pfffffttt! *_puts claws away and unruffles fur_* They have obviously never met *my* kitties. :wink:


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

The seem kinda PEATish. I'd never get an F1 Savanaha because I couldn't devote the time to one and I definitely couldn't manage the intro to my highly evolved kitties but I'd never deny someone else the right to have one and I sure wouldn't put one in a pen.

The following is still on their website. Rae, I hope you survive with these vicious brutes in your house. 

http://www.bigcatrescue.org/cats/wild/hybrids.htm


"While the rest of this article refers to Bengal Cats, the same is true of all of the hybrid cats. Some people have beautiful, fifth generation Bengal Cats that are reported to eat cat food, live quietly with domestic and use the litterbox fastidiously. This may well be the case, but the breeders tend to keep breeding back to the wild Leopard Cats in order to get the exotic markings. The idea was to glean the best of both worlds: a fabulously spotted or striped cat with all the gentleness of thousands of years of domestic history. Unfortunately, what more often happens is that you get the ordinary cat coat and a wild personality. 

Even after 5 generations, that wild personality is a dominant trait and while it is marketed as being just like having a tiny tiger in your home, most people don't know what that really means. As someone who is not trying to sell you a $2000.00 kitten that you will one day take to the dog pound out of frustration, let me tell you what it is like to live with a hybrid. 

We have a bunch of them that were former pets. We have had to turn away many, many more because most of them cannot run free outside and have to have the same cages as bobcats and cougars. They all spray. Male or female, neutered or not, first generation or fifth generation; I have never met one that didn't spray urine all over everything in their path. 
............................
They bite. Even in play, even if they love you, they bite and I have scars all over my hands to prove that their love nips will leave you bleeding. They want to eat your other pets and they don't care if it's a German shepherd, they are going to be constantly looking for a way to take the dog down. That is why many of them can't run free on Easy Street. They pick fights with 500 pound tigers. I have even received reports from Florida's Game and Fish Commission of them stalking little old ladies and I have been called in to trap and remove them. This discarded pet now lives on Easy Street, but most are not this lucky. 

Please Don't Ask Us To Take Your Bengal Cat or Savannah

We get hundreds of letters each year from people who bought a cute little Bengal Cat kitten and who can't wait to get rid of them when they reach adulthood. We do not take in Bengal Cats and don't know anyone reliable who does. The Bengal Cat Rescue Network is the only place we have found online who offers to take in unwanted Bengal Cats and we cannot speak for their integrity or policies, but have listed a link to them here to help you try to find a home for the cat you have discovered is now spraying everything in sight and who is attacking your pets, children and spouse 
"


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Dave_ph said:


> They bite. Even in play, even if they love you, they bite and I have scars all over my hands to prove that their love nips will leave you bleeding.


My cats have NEVER bitten me. If these cats are taught from day one that human flesh is not to be bitten or scratched, they respect that. 


Dave_ph said:


> They want to eat your other pets and they don't care if it's a German shepherd, they are going to be constantly looking for a way to take the dog down. That is why many of them can't run free on Easy Street. They pick fights with 500 pound tigers. I have even received reports from Florida's Game and Fish Commission of them stalking little old ladies and I have been called in to trap and remove them.


OMG, these reports are so outrageous. I'll put up a video of Teddy playing with my parents' 8lb cockapoo/doxie and that'll prove otherwise. AND stalking old ladies?!?!?! Come on! 


Dave_ph said:


> We get hundreds of letters each year from people who bought a cute little Bengal Cat kitten and who can't wait to get rid of them when they reach adulthood.


Now that I understand. Bengals are NOT for everyone. They are not a cute mini-tiger that is content to curl up on a bed on the floor and walk quietly and sedately around the house. NO these cats LOVE to climb on EVERYTHING. I'm lucky that I've been able to keep them off the counters for the most part. Many people will get these cats and not know what they are getting into. I really think that this happens a lot more often with regular cats than people realize. It is probably more often associated with Bengals and other hybrids because people aren't as willing to drop an animal that they paid up to $2000 in a Walmart parking lot. I also think that another BIG issue here is people will buy the cats with "breeding rights" expecting to make money by selling the kittens and not know what they are getting into. Yes, these guys are prone to being more wild if they are not fixed.

I understand why (somewhat) why cat rescues may feel this way. However, they are going WAY overboard. I honestly think that most of the problems that they encounter with the hybrid cats stems from the fact that they are sold to unprepared and neglectful owners. I know the breeder I got my boys from has had to take back several of the cats that she has sold to people because these people couldn't handle them. *sigh* It's unfortunate but at least she is a good breeder (even though she is getting out of breeding) and makes sure that all her kitties will always have a home.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Sorry for the blatant expression of outrage. 

I just get SOOO mad when people get animals before educating themselves. I've seen this all too many times with people getting dogs and then they doing train them. Then when the dog chews up the couch or bites someone they send the dog to the pound because they didn't discipline the dog and the dog couldn't figure out how he was supposed to behave. This is also true with cats when people don't interact with them or give them a good environment and they become aggressive or destructive. I've also seen this with horses, where someone who has taken a few riding lessons (just lessons on riding, not grooming or tacking up, or caring for a horse) and they think they know EVERYTHING there is to know about horses, then buys one, gives the horse bad habits and then the horse gets put down or sold to slaughter when the horse hurts them because they screwed it up. I've also seen this with fish as well. People put tropical fish in with cold water gold fish and they wonder why they die. :roll: 

Ok enough for one night. I need to sleep this off.

Although I'm sure that there is more than one person reading this that agrees with me.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

A lot of people posted videos of their well behaved Bengals on Youtube in response to BigCatRescues video fearmongering about Bengals.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Good grief. Who spit in their Corn Flakes? Reading the text, it sounds like because Bengals have a lot of energy and sometimes suffer from food allergies, litterbox issues, and biting small children who harass them -- in other words, because they're cats (energetic cats, but still cats) -- they're obviously BAD BAD BAD!

And why on earth are there photos of someone in a fake fur coat and a weird demon-monkey mask on that page?

Someone gets an energetic cat that likes to climb and then complains about how it's an energetic cat that likes to climb... that's not the CAT'S fault. That's like saying that Border Collies are obviously horrible dogs unsuited to domestication because some people who get them get upset when they discover the dog wants to be walked for an hour a day and tries to herd their children...


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Then I guess no one should get any kind of cat, because it's not just Bengals that have the potential to be wild. I can't imagine any cat being more crazy than Maggie was for the first two years and she never slowed down into somewhat normal kitten behavior until she was 8 (that's years, not months). You never know what you're going to get with any animal, but good pet parents learn and adjust as necessary. I had to make huge changes in order to deal with Maggie's curiosity and destructiveness. 



raecarrow said:


> I just get SOOO mad when people get animals before educating themselves. I've seen this all too many times with people getting dogs and then they doing train them. Then when the dog chews up the couch or bites someone they send the dog to the pound because they didn't discipline the dog and the dog couldn't figure out how he was supposed to behave.


I watched Marley & Me last night and spent most of the movie ticked off at the people for calling him the worst dog in the world when most of his issues were their fault. And they only came to appreciate him when he got older and slowed down so he wasn't as destructive. Thought the whole thing was so typical of ignorant pet owners....the writers had the opportunity to get the right message across and they didn't do it. After seeing that movie, tons of people will blame their dogs for their bad behavior and won't have a clue that they're the problem not the dog.


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## himikitty (Dec 15, 2009)

oh my they're so cute!! never knew there were this kind of cats..


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I just saw Marley & Me for the first time a couple weeks ago, and the movie drove me crazy! Why didn't they train their poor dog!!!??? I was so distracted by my frustration every time the dog misbehaved, I really didn't enjoy the movie that much.

My little twins are wild. Going on 3 years old and still little tigers.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

It's sort of interesting because for a while I really, really wanted to get a Bengal someday. But now that I've read more about them, I think that beautiful as they are, they're probably not the cats for me -- I frankly am much better off with my more laid-back ladies. 

Doesn't make them bad cats. Just not the cat that fits my lifestyle. Same as I wouldn't get a border collie. 

Re: dogs. I don't know much about dogs as I've never had one, but isn't one of the basic principles of dog ownership that YOU are the alpha dog? Full stop. I certainly hear my dog-owning friends complain about all the problems people who don't do this have... that either the dog pushes you around (if he likes being alpha) or freaks out (if he doesn't want to be alpha.) Or so I'm told. Like I said, I don't know dogs.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

In the movie, they took him to training and the very military-like trainer was quick to point out that his behavior was typical of a dog that was allowed to think he was the alpha. Then she took his leash to walk him and he took off and dragged her down until she let go of the leash. The implication was that even this "tough" trainer couldn't do anything with him, that he was completely incorrigible, so there were no more attempts at training.


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

Sounds like she wasn't much of a trainer then...

I don't know if this is true, but I'd sort of gotten the impression that one can always (or nearly always) take over the alpha position. (We're smarter and we have all the food, after all.) It's just that with some dogs it's a lot harder than others, and some dogs will keep checking just to make SURE you don't want to let them be the alpha. Like I said, I've never had a dog, so that was just an impression.

But certainly based on what dog-owning friends have told me, a movie that gives the impression that letting a dog be the alpha is normal, or funny, or something you can't control because he's such a "bad" dog, is asking for trouble.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Bethany said:


> Sounds like she wasn't much of a trainer then...
> 
> I don't know if this is true, but I'd sort of gotten the impression that one can always (or nearly always) take over the alpha position. (We're smarter and we have all the food, after all.) It's just that with some dogs it's a lot harder than others, and some dogs will keep checking just to make SURE you don't want to let them be the alpha. Like I said, I've never had a dog, so that was just an impression.
> 
> But certainly based on what dog-owning friends have told me, a movie that gives the impression that letting a dog be the alpha is normal, or funny, or something you can't control because he's such a "bad" dog, is asking for trouble.


I think one of the BIGGEST problems out there is that low energy people get high energy dogs or passive people get dogs with aggressive tendencies. It's the same things with cats, low energy people get these high energy cats and expect them to behave like a fat lazy cat. I think it is all about gauging the energy of the animal in accordance with your own. 

The problem with a lot of these BIG, TOUGH "trainers" is that they use aggression to attempt to take the Alpha position away from the dog. This is not what should be happening. Watch the dog whisperer. He never "takes" the alpha position, he "claims" it with calm, assertive engergy and holds his ground and the dog eventually gives up the alpha position. Some dogs are easier than others but that is the basic principle of the matter. What causes problems is when people do what is easiest in the moment (i.e. give food to a dog that is jumping up on you excited) not realizing that it would cause problems in the future and repeat of this bad behavior.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

Bethany said:


> It's sort of interesting because for a while I really, really wanted to get a Bengal someday. But now that I've read more about them, I think that beautiful as they are, they're probably not the cats for me -- I frankly am much better off with my more laid-back ladies.
> 
> Doesn't make them bad cats. Just not the cat that fits my lifestyle. Same as I wouldn't get a border collie.


That is absolutely right Bethany, they are gorgeous animals but they aren't for everyone. I would say, in general, Bengals may not be the cat breed for you. However, there are always cats that don't conform to the breed standard with being high engergy. If you really wanted, you could look for a retired stud or queen who has lost most of their "kitten energy" and is more laid back BUT I would caution you not to set your heart on it and be willing to go home without a kitty.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

I just wrote is guy off when he said there's a 50% chance a house cat won't like you. I think any normal adult has a 90% chance that a pet cat will like them. The other 10% shouldn't even be allowed to keep guppies.


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## faithless (Dec 4, 2009)

Definitely not guppies. Guppies generally hate and want to strangle 80% of humans in their sleep. They often stalk, persecute and extort whole families and even entire neighborhoods - the FBI apparently has a whole protection program for these poor victims including new identities and moving them to Argentina or Bolivia to shield them from the vicious, organized guppy gangs.

Source: Bigfishworld


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

faithless said:


> Definitely not guppies. Guppies generally hate and want to strangle 80% of humans in their sleep. They often stalk, persecute and extort whole families and even entire neighborhoods - the FBI apparently has a whole protection program for these poor victims including new identities and moving them to Argentina or Bolivia to shield them from the vicious, organized guppy gangs.
> 
> Source: Bigfishworld


*snicker*

I'm in BIG trouble then... I've got Bengals AND guppies. Not to mention my Loaches (who have spines under their eyes) :yikes


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

raecarrow said:


> I think one of the BIGGEST problems out there is that low energy people get high energy dogs or passive people get dogs with aggressive tendencies. It's the same things with cats, low energy people get these high energy cats and expect them to behave like a fat lazy cat. I think it is all about gauging the energy of the animal in accordance with your own.


Or they just go into it blindly and don't do any research and expect the dog to just behave. The most surrendered dog at our local shelter is the 9-18 month old lab, usually male. People get these cute little puppies that are just so funny and don't teach them a thing, and before you know it they become 80lb high energy puppies/young adults who are knocking over the kids, the furniture, eating everything in sight and pulling arms out of sockets with the leash...and the solution is to take them to the shelter. That's what made me so angry about the movie, it made the problems seem like the dog's fault when it was really his people that were the issue...


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Marley & Me.
Has anyone read the book? I've read the book and watched the movie.

His people WERE _completely_ clueless and the book was simply their compilation of the many incidents the family experienced with their dog. _You don't know what you don't know, you know?_ After reading the book and/or watching the movie, I am certain that *someone* has told them about their mistakes and that their Bad Dog was a direct result of them being Bad Owners. As for the movie, I found it just as frustrating with their cluelessness, however I felt it did follow the book closely. Over all, the best thing I can say about this book/movie, is that they NEVER GAVE UP ON THEIR DOG. They kept him, warts and all ... even though they were blissfully unaware that *they* were the source of most of their own problems with him.

Yes, the movie had the opportunity to spread a much better message ... but then it wouldn't have been very true to the book, their story and the real-life experiences the family had with their dog. Heck, if they had changed the movie that drastically, it wouldn't have been about their actual story/experiences from their book, which basically was; Clueless About Dogs.
If anything could have, or should have, been changed ... I would have liked to see a disclaimer or an add-on at the end of the book/movie where an animal behaviorist honestly addressed the numerous and specific issues presented and then offered solutions for how those things could have been remedied and handled for a better outcome.
h


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## Bethany (Jul 19, 2006)

To really risk stirring up the ant's nest... I actually don't think it's necessarily the case that all wild cats, or even all big cats, NEVER make good pets.

They don't make good pets for 99.99% of the population, true. And they certainly cause even worse problems than domestic animals when people get them without doing their research. (Apparently cougars can't be housebroken and will destroy any furniture with cushions. And eye-opener for people who aren't prepared to deal with it...)

But saying this all means they NEVER make good pets is like saying that horses NEVER make good pets because you can't keep one in a second-floor apartment. It doesn't mean they're necessarily bad pets. It means they're pets with specific needs that many people can't meet.

:shrug:


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

This is another thing that would fall under the category of "I'd never have known if I wasn't reading the cat forum". I was just reading articles from people who had cougars as pets. They say they are really affectionate and people have kept them as indoor pets up to a year old at which point they're just chewing up too much furniture and house. If I were wealthy, lived in a remote area and had a ton of time on my hands (1% of the population) I'd still probably never adopt one because it would be a life long commitment to an animal that would require ALL of your attention.

About the housebroken thing. I don't think I'd want to be cleaning a 200 lb cougar's litter box.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Most cougars I know are pretty mellow and gentle. Unless you try to steal away their young men. 8O


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Should I send her to YOU KNOW WHERE.....? for that joke?


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## gunterkat (Aug 19, 2006)

Shhh! We're not supposed to know about (gulp!) The Guppy Branch of the Witness Protection Program!

Sam, now a guardian angel kitty at the Bridge, was a Bengal mix who I rescued from children who were throwing him into a pool to see how many times he could swim his way out. 

He was a very challenging kitten at first, as he had a Bengal's energy plus the fear and anger of an abused kitten. After he got through the hiding/hissing phase, there were many incidents when I said, "I love you Sam!", through clenched teeth as he accidentally drew blood while playing. 

I went through times when I wondered if I should re-home him, when his energy and need for attention seemed overwhelming. But I persevered, and Sam ended up teaching me as much, or more, than I taught him. Eventually, he grew to be one of the sweetest, gentlest, most intelligent cats I ever knew. A gentle giant, he was a lean, muscular cat at close to twenty pounds.

He gained the understanding of well over 500 words before his untimely death. He had also learned to make himself understood well enough so we could have conversations. We used to go on walks around the apartment complex, too, and at the shore of Lake Pontchartrain. 

When we visited friends' apartments, Sam would always "ask" for permission before exploring or jumping onto any furniture. He would sit or curl up on the floor by my feet if our host didn't want him on the furniture.

People sometimes commented on how "dog like" Sam was, which he found insulting. His response loosely translated to, "I am *not* a filthy dog!". :lol: 





A rose for your grave, old friend.


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## jusjim (Jun 30, 2009)

faithless said:


> Theres a video at youtube that claims they'll take your arm off if frightened...I find it hard to believe.


I don't know about an arm, but I'm convinced that a cat could take a finger off if so desired. Have you ever seen a cat-decapitated rat. The ones I've seen had a smoothly sliced off head.


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## ShAzZa_UK (Dec 29, 2009)

They look like a cat version to a fennec fox. Same massive out of proportion ears


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