# At my wits end.... (Marking behavior/Peeing Issues?)



## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

A little background about us.... 

I received my beautiful calico tabby - Lilu - from a friend at work at 8 weeks old. She is now ~7 years old. She has moved with me quite a few times to several new areas with new animals and we have never had any issues.

I adopted my second beauty - Kirra - from a local shelter a few years after my first. She was 6 months at the time and is now ~5. She was very skittish at first and has come around nicely since being familiarized with our family.

I myself have always worked an 8-5 job and have never been around much during the day except for at night. I pay good attention to my animals and even catch myself speaking to them one on one as if they understand me 

Now to get to the issue....

I have moved several times throughout the years and have never had this problem until I would say the past 3 years or so. Back in 2009 I had to move back to my parents’ house, and the kits came with me. My parents do have quite a few animals and some of them are not particular in using the litter box. Both cats seemed fine over there and never did I catch them not using the appropriate area for bathroom deeds . 

After staying there for a year or so I moved into a house of my own and they had free reign of the house. Brand new carpet had been installed and new paint on the walls. At the time I had 2 covered litter boxes with the typical baking soda litter which I always kept clean. A few months after moving in I noticed the slight smell of urine which eventually turned to a huge issue. Humid nights soon brought the smell up from the carpet. Low and behold after tearing up carpet...."Someone" had been peeing there for months. Typical corner area. I used enzyme cleaners, vinegar and water, baking soda, and my little green. I think I cleaned the carpet 50 times over. I finally added foil to the areas where I knew "they" were peeing and added a 3rd litter box with the same litter. The peeing never stopped but I learned to look for signs and caught it as soon as it happened. I did discipline until I learned they have no clue what it means.

A year later we moved into a newer two story home with my now husband and 17 year old golden retriever. Might I add they were introduced at my first home and love each other – or should I say tolerate. All have run of the entire house. I started with 2 covered cat boxes. One in the upstairs bathroom and one on the main level in a nook under our stairs – perfect for a cat play area. The first few months here were a dream, everything was settling in nicely, until once again I noticed the smell. I went and took a closer look in this area under the stairs and found a few spots that I quickly cleaned with my little green. Smell went away and things returned to normal. I started noticing spots in those same areas that “they” were continuing to potty on. Here is what I have done thus far and I need all the help I can get :/

1-Clean litter box more often.
2- Changed downstairs box to one with no lid
3- Moved closed box into a more private area…..upstairs closet. (Making a total of 3 boxes)
4- Baking soda, vinegar, enzymatic cleaning (not all together)
5- Laying down plastic to save my carpet.
6- Using foil as a deterrent
7- Catching them in the act and placing them in the box “Good kitty” technique
8- Full doctors visit for each cat – blood work, whole 9. Both are in good health but were given antibiotic shots to prevent UTI, also up to date on shots.
9- Per vet – changed food to wet only with the option of dry food throughout the day.
10-Per vet – switched to a clay litter
11- Currently using puppy pads to save carpet.
12-Just recently bought a black light and 2nd round of nature’s miracle and went on a cleaning rampage with that and my little green.
13-Stratigically placed small items to make areas of choice less accessible with a straight and clear path to the litter box only.
14-Locked one cat at a time into the bathroom for the night to find the culprit (its Lilu the calico)
15-Began one week of litter box retraining and on the 8th night did a test and she peed again.
16-Now on second week of retraining to no avail, she has learned to do it when no one is watching.

None of these have worked thus far and I’m running out of options. I have learned that she only decides to pee in the inappropriate spots when we are sleeping, although I did catch her “squatting” a couple times in front of us and used the “Good kitty” technique. She has also now learned that she can do it during the day when no one is home/awake as I came home to find a wet spot today. She only prefers the walls/corners around the current litter box. And also just to clarify the dog does not chase nor is she bothersome to the cats. She was recently diagnosed with Lyme’s and mostly sleeps all day. Mrs. Lilu is now spending her nights in the bathroom (the bathroom with 2 boxes) until we can find a better solution.

ANY RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE GREATLY GREATLY APPRECIATED AND I WILL TRY ANYTHING.

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!! J


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Well you've certainly run through the gamet of things to retrain her....the only suggestions I can make is to use _Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract Litter._ Do you have a large dog crate? I would keep her confined during the day when you are at work, and at night when you're sleeping in the crate with her litter box and food/water, and only_ let her out when you can closely supervise her every move_. Since will be confined quite a bit it's important to give her a really good interactive playtime, with a fishing pole type toy, like "Da Bird", or a laser pointer, or throwing a toy if she likes to retrieve it. I think this is you're only chance at retraining her to the litter box. Unfortunately the longer she goes with peeing when and wherever she likes, the more difficult it will be to correct it. I hope it's not too late to change this habit since you say she's been dong this for about 3 yrs. now. But I would give this a try for several months, and do try and compensate for her crate time, by being extra loving, playtime, and grooming her ever day.....this is a nice bonding action. Hope you have good luck!


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

This sounds good enough to try!  Thanks for the reply. She hasnt really done this for 3 years straight, more on an off. But I can never be too sure. I was tempted to try this before but was unsure on how she would react in the long run. I don't want to turn her backwards in time and bring out any feral nature in her. We have plenty of toys so I will be sure to give her extra love. Thanks again!


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

I agree re: Dr. Elsey's.

However, you are still feeding dry food, correct? IMO you need to ditch that entirely. Lots of info why here:

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health

When I had barn cats, they ate kibble for a while. I noticed them peeing in front of me often (3 out of 4 of them!), which is abnormal b/c normally one never sees cats peeing. They were all almost impossible to catch so I switched them to grain-free canned. Voila! Within a week I no longer ever saw ANYONE peeing.

The remaining 2 of those 4 barn cats are now living indoors 24/7 and they have never had a single accident. They now eat raw.

It really can make that much difference.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

They are fed wet food at night when I get home and can graze on the bowl of dry if they so choose. This has been done as the vet stated my gray tabby has a problem with her esophagus and cannot completely swallow dry food. He suggested to keep feeding my calico the dry food but in a more private setting away from the other kit. To my surprise Kirra knows she can't eat the dry food and stays away from it....hence why I have now left it out for Lilu if she wants it. My only question is, what is the difference between using the bathroom as the "crate" vs. the actual crate? Is one better than the other?


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

If dry food is available and the cats are eating it, that is more than likely contributing to the problem. Indiscriminate urination is almost NEVER entirely behavioral-it is almost always medical. Did you read the link?


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

I am simply going by what the vet told me. If my cat choose to eat the dry food over the wet food that is their choice not mine to make. If it is proven by my vet that the dry food is indeed the cause of her urinating in the wrong area (which he never stated this - as the one who is peeing is the one he told me to keep on dry food, he only stated to up their wet food intake) I will be sure to use only wet food. Just FYI they don't go through nearly the dry food as they used to. They prefer the wet but still have the option.


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## hoofmaiden (Sep 28, 2009)

Your problem is almost surely medical, as the vast majority of indiscriminate urination cases are.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

So then my vet is telling me my cat is health for no reason what so ever. I'm confused. I just think its hilarious that a can of wet cat food will determine if my cat uses the box or not. Makes no sense to me but maybe I'm missing something.


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## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

Have you tried changing the type of litter you use? Some cats don't like certain types.

*edit* I just saw that you did. It seems you have tried almost everything..you say he seems to go 'around' the box? Is the box large enough?


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

It is a large box, she is only around 7 lbs so not too big. And she doesn'y necessarily go right around the edge of the box. She branched out to I would say about a 3-4 foot radius of the box. I have 2 boxes upstairs and one down. She only prefers to pee around the one downstairs. AND she does use it correctly also. Its just whenever she feels the need to pee somewhere else.


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## happyalibaba (Nov 26, 2010)

I feel ur pain. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

It is frustrating. A solution is soon to be found I know it


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## BKME (Aug 21, 2012)

*Two more suggetions*

I agree with the Dr. Elyses (spelling?) Cat Attract Litter. Same company makes an herbal blend to sprinkle or mix in with litter as well. You only have to use it until the cat(s) are back to litter box then you can slowly switch back to a regular litter

So...the other suggestions

1. Are you cleaning with Nature's Miracle? It is the best enzymatic cleaner I have ever used. Those spots must be cleaned with enzymes that destroy the odors for the cats, not just us humans

2. Feliway Comfort Zone - kind of like the room freshener plug ins you see, but gives off kitty pheromones, odorless to us humans. Many many cats find this stuff totally relaxing and if the spraying/peeing is marking or stress related, this may fix it. This also comes in other forms that are less expensive and may work for you cat.

You should be able to get both products at any good pet store. And both come with a money back guarantee. Any pet store worth it's salt should refund your money if you are not happy with any product you purchase from them. Keep you receipt and there should be no problems, but I think you will find that these are very helpful.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

We did check out the cat attract. Although it is expensive it is in an option we are considering. I have been cleaning with Nature's for quite sometime but not sure if the smell is whats attracting her to these spots.... I still have some questions about Feliway, as I have looking into this also. I'm just not sure how to pin point this as stress. Both lead pretty normal lives of play, sleep, and eat. They love eachother as you can see in my original attachment and they get along really well with the dog. Nothing has changed in our home since we moved in nor have I changed the way I treat them over the years. I know there could be many other things to contribute to stress. Any ideas?


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## cinderflower (Apr 22, 2012)

hi. i'm in denver.

i had this problem for two years and he hasn't done it for two years now almost exactly.

he's 5, i got him @ 8 weeks and he was perfectly litter trained until (duh duh duh) he decided to start peeing in my bed. i did everything, weird things lol, (along with neutering him at 11 months because i was told that was why he was doing it. no it wasn't haha.)

i have a loft and couldn't lock him out of my bedroom. i finally had had it, but since he was a replacement for a cat that died for my now 15 year-old cat, i didn't want to get rid of him and have her freak out again so i got another siamese kitten. +1 kitten, +1 new litterbox. by my bed. the minute i put it down, mr. peabody got right in it and only did it in my bed once after that because i tried to change the box to a clever cat top entry one and he didn't like it. (switched back immediately--no problem.) i had tried another litterbox by my bed early on but it was one of those disposable ones. he kicked all the litter out of it, turned it over and left so i thought, "well, that's not it."

he used to eat wet and dry food until may, when i switched all my cats to 100% canned, so he quit doing it for 21 months when he was still eating dry.

i think it can totally be behavioral with some cats, it was with baci. he just had something really important to tell me and i couldn't understand.

i didn't want the box by my bed because the litter tracked really bad but i switched to pine pellets and that doesn't track and you can't smell urine. you have to take your time switching it, and i was really worried about him, but no problem with any of them. it's really cheap here in colorado too because of the pine beetle infestation, they can't do anything else with those trees.

there is a reason--it will probably just end up being a really weird one. ended up throwing away all of my bedding and buying a new mattress before i figured it out, just in case that was it, but thank god he didn't go for the carpet, he would have been gone much sooner than two years. and he wasn't doing it every day--i'd do one thing and he'd go maybe 2, 3 weeks and not do it, and i'd think it was fixed, then he'd do it again. an open jar of menthol rub worked the best, but if yours is going on carpet in the corners, you'd have to put a lot of them around or she'd just find another one.

i'd go with the crate/bathroom idea, whichever one works best for you. i'd definitely think it has something to do with the litter, or the boxes, or even the location of the boxes. they make corner ones that look kind of cute. good luck figuring it out.

oh, i forgot--he has this other weird habit of peeing in the laundry basket with dirty clothes in it if i leave it out. and he doesn't just get in it and pee, he digs down to the middle, goes, then puts other clothes back on top of it LOL. he's done that a couple of times, once with sheets i hadn't even used just sitting in their box, the other two times in the laundry. if i hide it or lock it in the closet where he can't get it, he doesn't go on anything else. i haven't even tried to figure that one out, other than he just wants to do it. so i think sometimes cats can develop weird little habits that we think are horrible that seem perfectly natural to them.

oh p.s. i bought feliway: total waste of money. it smelled weird to me and did nothing. i might as well have put a sign over my bed that said, "pee here ------------->" you can try it if you want but it's expensive and amazon wouldn't take it back. i even tried using it after one cat goes to the vet and the other cats get weird and hiss. nothing.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

Ugh bed peeing would definately be a deal breaker. I have considered using Feline Pine myself but was unsure how it affects their upper respiratory. Is it dusty? I know that in smaller animals pine bedding can cause upper resp issues. As far as her not liking the litter, the box, the location etc... She never had an issue with baking soda litter but I switch to clay per the vet. She uses the box just fine on a regular basis. I did think it may be the box shape so I switch the one downstairs (the one she is peeing around) from a dome shape with lid to an open square. She uses both but I think she prefers the open top better. I also thought maybe the box was in too busy of an area so I moved it upstairs. She just continued to use all 3 boxes and still pee downstairs in the same area.

Just a side note: She pees no where else in the house! Just this area of the house down stairs within a 4 foot radius of the litterbox. I know it is not an issue of "I cant make it to the box" for she always seems to find the same spots over and over again. Usually along a wall or corner. BUT SHE USES THE LITTER BOXES ON A REGULAR BASIS ALSO! So confusing!


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## cinderflower (Apr 22, 2012)

i just use eco-flame wood stove fuel pellets with no additives or accelerants. they sell it at king soopers, or if you have room for a ton (50 bags) you can get them at new green earth depot. $4.50 for 40# vs. feline pine, $15 for 20#. it's exactly the same thing--they're processed the same way, fp says theirs is "specially treated" to eliminate phenols but that's pretty much a marketing ploy, and that's what you're paying for with fp. put the pellets side by side without a package and you can't tell which is which.

no respiratory problems here. i was using tidy cat clumping and hated it because of the dust. as long as you either reverse scoop or get a special box. if you let the sawdust build up, yeah, it will track. i use booda domes.

just be open to changing litter boxes (type), location and type of litter. it may not make any sense to you at all, but if it makes sense to the cat, that's what matters, right?

the fact that she does it in a specific place says something. what? i don't know, i don't speak cat lol. put her litter box there and see what happens. get another one. having litter boxes everywhere is preferable to having cat pee everywhere. (that's what i said about the litter tracked into my bed--"well, it's better than pee.")

i can't remember if you said the out-of-box experiences started when the vet suggested that you change to clay. i used clay for years but i changed it every day. then a couple of years ago i changed to clumping but the dust was bothering me and it was all over everything, so i figured it couldn't be good for anyone, especially the cats.

all i can say is experiment with different kinds of litter, but don't change all at once with no alternatives. leave one litterbox with what she was using. with the pine, i put 1/4 box pine and the rest lightly used litter (so they'd know by the smell, the pine has an odor) and then every time i scooped, i would add pellets instead of litter, so in about 10 days it was all pine. you can't just switch and expect them to use it. i was advised to leave one box completely with their old litter so they had a back-up if they rejected the pine. what kind of litter were you using before this started? i would bet money that changing the litter had something to do with this. 

baci was using the box daily, he was just christening my sheets as well. i took him to the vet a couple of time--no health problems.


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## cinderflower (Apr 22, 2012)

i read back and can see you were using baking soda litter and the vet suggested you change _after_ she started missing the box.

she knows where she's supposed to go, she just is making a statement. the fact that she does it when you're asleep or gone is avoidant behavior. she doesn't want to get yelled at or sprayed with water. i got so frustrated i would scream and cry when i found a wet bed just after changing the sheets, and i'm sure he had no idea why i was yelling, he just got sneakier about doing it. he did it in front of me at first.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

Good advice! I too use booda domes. I have 2 upstairs and a regular uncovered pan downstairs. The one downstairs is exactly in the area where she has her "accidents" Mind you she DOES use it....when she wants. But she also pees on all the walls and corners around it as well. As my initial post stated this has been going on for 3 years on an off. From 8 months old up to a couple months ago I have used the SAME baking soda litter. I was thought it might be medical so i took her to my vet, she came out healthy. I called a couple weeks later for advice and he said to switch to no clumping clay and see what happens. I used the clay in the box downstairs and left the orignal litter in the other two boxes. Shes still doing her regular naughty routine. No change.


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

I used to yell also until I learned they have no clue what it means. So now its "clean it up and act like nothing happened". A month back she did try to pee in front of us on 2 separate occasions. No clue why when the **** box is 4 feet away. Its just so weird. I have even tried moving the box around to find the "correct" placement. LOL how funny that they make us do these things. Love her to death!


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

Just a quick update.... It's been over a year since my last posts with no change. I have came to the conclusion that it is both cats. After numerous trips to the vet with no diagnosis other than cystitis.....pain meds....glucosamine supplements.....new food.....new boxes....new litter.....outside time (since they are indoor only)....nothing is working. I have since tried the retraining method (kennel for one week, room for one week, house supervised only), which only seemed to stop them for the moment. That being said after I believed things were back to normal i found pee immediately after returning home from work and/or upon waking up. I have also tried the feliway diffuser which I think is a gimmic and didn't work anyway. I have also tried the tin foil, make the pee spot less appealing approach and they pee next to or on top of whatever I put there. I have moved the box several inches in each direction to find the right spot and they still pee. I also decided to put two boxes directly next to each other, thinking that it was territorial spraying "this is my box" fight between the two of them. I even let one use the new box before the other to mark it and what do you know pee next to the new box the next day. I have since resorted to chipping both cats and will start transitioning them to outside if I cannot find a solution. .


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## happyalibaba (Nov 26, 2010)

Well me neither....My older cat would pee on my comforter if we didnt satisfy his need or make himbmad with i dont know what.... i have gave up... now i just hide my comforter when i am not using it... and i have bought 3 comforters for backup.... lol...


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

It is hard. But I love them, even though they may be the death of me. Its just so hard when you can't find a solution and you've tried everything. I am going to re-evaluate and am thinking of trying a pet behaviorist and possible a doggy door to outside. I have also noticed some cat prints on my car lately.....does anyone have an suggestions about outside influence and how to alleviate it?


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## cat face (Apr 4, 2013)

jezzka said:


> It is hard. But I love them, even though they may be the death of me. Its just so hard when you can't find a solution and you've tried everything. I am going to re-evaluate and am thinking of trying a pet behaviorist and possible a doggy door to outside. I have also noticed some cat prints on my car lately.....*does anyone have an suggestions about outside influence and how to alleviate it?*


Short of black out blinds, I don't but you could have discovered the reason why it is happening. Cats WILL take to peeing out of the box when they feel threatened by an outside cat! They will make a marker to let the "offender" know this is their home, and he is intruding!

They could have been seeing a cat outside at your parent's house as well.

Possibly cafe' style black out curtains... or shutters on the bottom of the window? Just suggestions


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

This is where I'm at a loss. How long would I have to have my blinds down? This can't be a permanent fix. Not only do I have to live without sunlight (lol) but they would not be able to look outside (that doesn't seem fun to me) Would it be appropriate to let them go outside and meet said "intruder" on their own time?


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## cat face (Apr 4, 2013)

You could let them meet, but it wouldn't do any good. Cats eyesight isn't that great when it comes to things like seeing subtle differences in coat colours and stuff to know it's their new friend. They can't smell them when they are inside, and new friend is outside so they will be treated as a threat. 

Well, that's why I said something about cafe' style curtains. Or half shutters. To block the* bottom half* of the window. Newspaper taped to the window would do the same to see if that stops the peeing. That way you don't have to invest to see if that will sort out the problem.


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## Carmel (Nov 23, 2010)

jezzka said:


> I have since tried the retraining method (kennel for one week, room for one week, house supervised only), which only seemed to stop them for the moment.


You need to go back to this and only move on to the next stage when they appear to REALLY be only using the litterbox. You should find a routine and get to know when they like to use the litterbox (often after it's been cleaned) -- give them treats and praise when they go. Can you give more detail on how it only stopped them "for the moment"? Did you replace all parts of your home they had peed in or clean everything throughly with enzyme cleaners? Did you use a black light to make sure there's no pee anywhere?


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## jezzka (Aug 17, 2012)

Just to clear things up.... I now have two boxes where they are peeing. As shown in the picture. One has pine litter and the other clay free clumping. They will pee anywhere you see puppy pads BUT use the cat box too. They are kennelled at night together and any time someone is not home in our upstairs bedroom with a box that has their preferred litter. Up until this week they have had no problem with that. To my luck after writing my update I investigated the room and found more areas they chose to pee instead of the litter box. Yay me lol. I always clean with bissel pet, natures miracle and have been known to try urine off, baking soda and straight dish soap. We bought a black light two years ago and that's how I found the problem areas last night. I have since moved everything to the bathroom, since it is tiled. I am going to try this as the kennel for now until i can think of another solution. As far as "stopping the for the moment"....all inappropriate peeing stops when they are kennelled, but the moment you turn your back or the go a few days with no accidents, it starts again. I have once, believe it or not, made it two weeks without seeing a drop. Don't ask me what I did different because there was nothing. Lol


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