# Is that OK to breed a CH female with non-CH male?



## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

Good day everyone!

My 2 yr Scottish Fold female is ready to be bred. She recently went for a first show and manage to score a Champion title.

We met a nice breeder lady at the show, she offered her blue British Shorthair for stud services. So we signed up, and brought our cat to her. But then it turned out that he is not a Champion because she does not show him (he has damaged his eye in a fight or smth. like that). But he obviously has all the paperwork from CCA. It was kinda too late to back off and we left her there.
:fust
Now I am wondering if it is a big deal if a father is not Champion, or for the very first breeding (and it's first for me - never bred cats before), it would be alright?

Input much appreciated!


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## Fran (Jan 9, 2008)

Are you planning to show or sell the kittens? 

Is your breeding contract contingent on successful conception? 

I don't raise show cats, but we have a non-show quality registered Brit whom we adore , and I have done some reading around. Your little kitty won't get 'tainted' by her association, and the stud you found is certainly the appropriate breed for your Scottish Fold. It seems the big issue is your plans for the kittens.

Fran


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

I would question carefully _what_ happened with the eye. Does breeder have photos of him before he injured the eye? If not, forget it, as it might be be a congenital problem. Ask her for the name of her vet that treated him and find out the nature of the "injury". Usually a stud cat with no titles of his own or on his pedigree is a "red flag" for any breeder down the line that is looking at the pedigree of your kittens. Why wasn't he shown? Bad temperament? It would be best if you could have someone else who is an experienced and good BSH breeder to have a look at the stud with you (or a judge if you know one well in your area). The stud should be as _outstanding _in every way as you can get......excellent temperament, heavy boning, fits the standard, rounded head and cheeks, dense plush coat etc. and especially large eyes of intense colour (deep orange/copper unless he exhibits silver gene like silver tabby or shaded silver). If he has most all of these qualities, and you're assured the eye injury really was an accident, if I were in your positiion I would use him if he had quite a number of Gr.Ch. in his pedigree. Of course, without a title the breeder should not expect or demand to get the full price of a stud fee, nor a pick-of-the-litter kitten back if stud fee is waived.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

The fact that you're asking this sort of question here indicates to me that you would benefit from having a trusted mentor to help you develop your breeding program. There's much more involved with choosing a stud than whether he's a Champion or not. You also need to ensure that you're not passing down medical issues that are genetically linked...for example, has your girl been tested for cardiomyopathy? Does it exist in her lines? What about the stud's? Please find a reputable and experienced Scottish Fold breeder who is willing to help you.


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## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

Thank you Ladies and Gents for your answers!
I totally see your point doodlebug. Yes I'm new and have no experience in cat breeding. The problem is there are very few Scottish fold breeders in Canada - and almost none in my city (well, could be one more, as new as myself). I will turn to advice to my breeder (who is not a fold breeder either - she got that kitten as a stud service payment).
This being said, my concern for now is simply am I doing something totally wrong, damaging the bloodlines and reputation, or, since it is a "trial breeding", it is not such a big deal for this time? That lady I brought my cat to, is a professional breeder well known in the local club...


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

dogguy said:


> , or, since it is a "trial breeding", it is not such a big deal for this time?


I think that should you bring forward kittens that have health issues and send them on to homes with those health issues for new owners to deal with it becomes a very big deal.

It would be a pretty big deal for a kitten born with issues that may cause it to suffer for the rest of its life or to end that life very early.

All breeding should be WELL researched and a person who wants to get into breeding needs to pick up some books and learn some basic genetics and start studying past bloodlines and research where your breed is headed so you can properly produce healthy, breed standard and well tempered kittens.

No kittens are 'trials'...they are sentient living beings who deserve to have the best possible start in life.


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## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

I also agree with you MowMow.
I did some basic homework on breeding and this breed. However, as I mentioned there are no real Scottish fold mentors around. So the only advise I can get would be from local British Shorthair breeders. They pointed out several possibilities for me including that lady who has a CCA registered cattery. So I assumed I can trust them. Thus, I got a believe that if I go with a registered and reputable breeder, there will be no health and genetic issues, and my main concern was that that particular stud has no title. But again, since she runs an officially registered cattery, I assumed she knows what she is doing...


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## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

My apologies if I got everyone confused here. Let me please rephrase the question:

What, if any, are the downsides of breeding a champion female cat to a non-champion male cat (everything else being in order)?


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## love.my.cats (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't think it's about how you worded your question but more that you're asking this question AFTER the fact. I think what people are trying to get across is you should have been completely informed, and done alot of research before you decided to breed. You may not have Scottish fold mentors in your area, but what about the breeder you got your cat from? You also mentioned that "there will be no health and genetic issues" - how can you be sure of this? Even reputable breeders who have been breeding for many years can come across health problems. When it comes to breeding cats, I would never assume someone else knows what they are doing. This woman may have started out just like you, with 'trial' breedings. I think if you're really serious about become a registered breeder, you should definitely know about genetics and at the very least, have a mentor.


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## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, the reason I am asking this question after the fact, is that I totally trusted breeders I met and assumed they know what they are doing and how they guiding me (which, I agree now, could be my major mistake). The actual point I started doubting all that is when I learned the cat is not a champion. That's why I brought my concerns to the forum. And as I mentioned, my breeder is not a Fold breeder, but I've asked her this question as well...


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Just because someone shows their cats and wins championships does not mean they are breeding for the good of the cats. It could just as easily mean that they are breeding to get champions and make money selling kittens...but those kittens could have a myriad of health issues further down the road. The condition of a champion cat's heart may not be apparent for 5 or 6 years (or more). 

Since your breeder knows nothing about Scottish Folds, maybe she will put you in touch with the person who actually bred the kitten. You need lineage info on your kitten if you don't already have it...you must ensure she and stud do not have too many common ancestors or you run the risk of unfavorable traits due to inbreeding. You need to know the medical history of her lineage as well as the stud's. 

You cannot just assume and trust that everyone breeding is on the up and up. The question about the stud's championship status is moot at this point...you have much bigger questions to get answered. You need to research and find a mentor. But first, you need to stop your cat from being bred. I hope it's not too late...


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## Kobster (Feb 1, 2007)

I don't understand why you would breed your Champion Scottish fold with any breed other than a Scottish fold, champion or otherwise? Why crossbreed when you obviously have a very nice example of your breed?


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## yingying (Jul 19, 2011)

Scottish fold cannot breed with another scottish fold. A litter from foldxfold pair almost guarantee at least one kitten with severe health issue, like severe arthritis or even deformity. Therefore, scottish fold must be bred to a straight-ear scottish, or British shorthair, or American shorthair. The kittens from these cross breeding are pedigree scottish fold, although technically they are not "pure breed".


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)




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## spotty cats (Sep 23, 2011)

catloverami said:


> Of course, without a title the breeder should not expect or demand to get the full price of a stud fee, nor a pick-of-the-litter kitten back if stud fee is waived.


Perhaps things differ by country, but that would make no difference here at all.

To answer the basic question, no it does not matter if one parent is untitled. Some cats just do not like showing, this is no reflection on their temperament - it takes a special cat to be a show kitty, in a busy hall with lots of strange cats, hormones, stud spray...

I'm sure there would be a Yahoo group for Scottish Folds where you can learn on the genetic requirements of the breed, although seems it is too late as you've already mated this girl.


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## dogguy (Jan 25, 2010)

Thank you all again for input and advise. So yes, this is precisely the situation - there are very few fold breeders around, and you have to deal with typically british shorthair breeders from now on, since you cannot breed a fold with a fold (I guess you cannot even breed them with straight ear or "single" folds either). There is a couple of books on folds that I read, and unfortunately these seem to be the only resources so far...


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## granitestatecat (Apr 17, 2011)

dogguy said:


> My apologies if I got everyone confused here. Let me please rephrase the question:
> 
> What, if any, are the downsides of breeding a champion female cat to a non-champion male cat (everything else being in order)?


absolutely nothing ... breeding's should be done for the qualities of the cats and how you think that they will compliment each other ... i just paid $2000 for my stud kitten he is of outstanding quality his full brother and several of his half siblings have been shown to champion status in Germany but despite all of this i have no intention to show him ...why??? because i enjoy having a stud who is comfortable and happy in my home and their is nothing like dragging a stud cat to a show to encourage undesirable behavior, i will show his offspring and i will be showing my queens next season but i will not be seeking a title for my stud 

if the stud you contracted with has good qualities and is healthy / has been tested for genetic defects go for it i think people can be overly touchy about the words we choose 'trial' may not be the most flattering choice of words but i understand the basic concept this will be your first litter, a chance for you to watch a litter of kittens grow and see how their qualities develop so that in future breeding's you will be able to spot desirable traits at an earlier age and watch them more closely even if this was a breeding with a champion stud i would think that it would be best for you to sell them as pet quality because you are still growing as a breeder and are not yet experienced enough to choose kittens with a decerning eye


best of luck 
Kaitlyn


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

A non-champion can have gran champion qualities. All cats start out as non-champions.

What's important is that you know what you are looking for. Which qualities are you looking for? Does the male fit?

Make sure the eye damage was caused by a fight. Worst case scenario is that the damage was done by Herpes (or similar) and he passes on the infection to your female or that it is a herediatary defect that he passes on to his offspring. I propably wouldn't use such a cat for stud unless I really knew and trusted the owner.


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## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

marie73 said:


>


Took me a full 10 seconds to work out what was up with this pic.


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## Kobster (Feb 1, 2007)

yingying said:


> Scottish fold cannot breed with another scottish fold. A litter from foldxfold pair almost guarantee at least one kitten with severe health issue, like severe arthritis or even deformity. Therefore, scottish fold must be bred to a straight-ear scottish, or British shorthair, or American shorthair. The kittens from these cross breeding are pedigree scottish fold, although technically they are not "pure breed".


he, learn something new everyday. Thanks for explaining!


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## granitestatecat (Apr 17, 2011)

marie73 said:


>


please please please let me put this on my facebook


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Feel free, I believe Facebook is where I found it. :grin:


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