# Rabies Vaccines or not?



## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

One of the women at the rescue we adopted Io from recommended that we don't give her the rabies vaccine. She only said there were "problems" with it, and I couldn't find anything really reliable online (mostly discussions about which vaccines to use, since it seems it's a legal requirement in the USA to give rabies shots). The rescue doesn't give the rabies vaccine, but none of the 'official' stuff recommends against it.

I'm curious about the actual problems associated with the vaccine, or personal experience (good or bad) you folks have had with it. On one hand, we live in a 3rd floor high-rise (more like 5th in terms of height), so if Io escapes outside she's going to have more problems with the concrete 3 stories below than rabies. My other concern is that lots of normally intelligent people are getting their knickers knotted against vaccinations in general, due to poor research and media madness with that ugly autism BS - I wonder if this is something similar.

On the other, we are planning to move overseas in 3-5 years. NZ pet import requirements demand a rabies vaccination (because they're rabies-free), and I'm wondering if it's better to get her started on the shots now/soonish, rather than risk giving her a major vaccination shortly before subjecting her to a long flight and quarantine.

TLDR; Rabies vaccine. What's up with that?


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Ive personnally seen the tragic results from rabies vaccines. Read the articles in the library of Little Big Cat. Written by a vet. Rabies vaccines can cause cancer. When you need to get a rabies shot for your cat make sure they use the new type vaccine instrument which pushes it thru the skin and not to use the needle type. Im typing on my phone so I cant look up the name of the new type of injection they are using.

We over vaccinate in this country. Its not i the best interest for your cats health to do this. I would depend on a titer test if you have concerns. Plus your cats are indoor only. Why bother since they wont come in contact with infected animals.

I adopted a cat from a local shelter which was dying from a vaccination related cancer. Her name was Sissy. I wrote my experince and tribute to her in the rainbow bridge section.


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

In an ideal world, I would not vaccinate my cats unless we were traveling or boarding, buy in my state, there is a law that mandates the Rabies shot be administered yearly. If any of my cats ever got out and bit or scratched anyone or another animal, it would be put down immediately no questions asked if they are not vaccinated. I feel that this is too great a risk not to vaccinate them. 

You just never know what can happen in a moment you drop your guard. This past Vet visit, Egypt almost got out of her carrier. There were dogs all over the place. Had one of those dogs chased her and she swatted at them, she could've been put down.


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

Thank you for the insight, M&T. It took a while, but I did find Sissy's story. You did a good thing there, but it sounds like her pain was due to vet incompetence, and not so much as a direct result of the vaccine.

That's a good point about taking her out to the vets, dweamgoil. Io is very mellow in travelling, but she can definitely fit out the "petting window" in her carrier if she gets it in her head to. There are no legal requirements here regarding vaccinations. Despite that, I just looked at the numbers and there's only been ~20 rabies cases here in the last ten years (all but 2 of those in bats). 

But New Zealand is completely rabies free, so I can understand why they'd want pets from other countries to be vaccinated against it. Does the rick of cancer increase with multiple injections? If so, it would be better for us to wait and vaccinate her shortly before moving (since once we're there, she won't need anymore). But the mortality rate for pets going overseas is so high it might be better to risk multiple rabies injections instead of battering her immune system with something new right before travel.


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## scottd (Jun 28, 2011)

Personally, I think you should. You don't know if your cat will get outside and get attacked by another animal. I won't take the risk with mine. I actually have to make an appointment for next week for a checkup + vaccines.

Last year, I tried to save a cat and I ended up getting scratched and it had saliva on it's paws. Shortly after, it died. It was showing symptoms of rabies and we buried it instead of refrigerating it so the brain couldn't be tested. I ended up having to get rabies vaccines and human rabies immunoglobulin myself.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

scottd said:


> Last year, I tried to save a cat and I ended up getting scratched and it had saliva on it's paws. Shortly after, it died. It was showing symptoms of rabies and we buried it instead of refrigerating it so the brain couldn't be tested. I ended up having to get rabies vaccines and human rabies immunoglobulin myself.


This is an excellent point. A friend of mine had a stray cat that jumped the fence into her yard and then couldn't get back out. In her attempt to trap it, it scratched her leg. Since she had no idea what the cat's status was, she called animal control and they ended up euthanizing it and sending it's brain out for testing. 

So, if your cat gets out and it can't be ID'd, it could meet a similar fate if it were to bite or scratch someone trying to help it.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Also, what happens if something gets IN your house? Say a bat flies in, what cat wouldn't want to play with the silly flying thing? Then they get bit? (this happened to a friend of ours).

It also may be a law where you are to have your cat vaccinated.


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

You've all given me very good advice and things to think about. Thank you!! I think we'll go ahead and get her started with the rabies vaccine (no rush, though, maybe at her next check up), and then just give her the booster before we travel.


I still haven't found anything really against the vaccine. Doing a search on Little Big Cat, the first article I read about vaccination...


> After vaccination:...
> Take a dose of homeopathic Thuja Occidentalis 30C immediately after vaccination (at least within 2 hours), and then every 12 hours for a total of 3 doses (more is not necessary and may negate the benefits). Homeopathy is able to head off many adverse vaccine effects, including those that may appear months or years later. Thuja is available at many health food stores and online.


Stopped reading right there :roll: - this site needs to _vet_ its articles a bit more (ha! pun!). Last I checked, kitties are immune to placebo effects.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Wish i was home on my computer. Google rabies vaccination side effect or deaths and read thru articles. I stopped re vaccinating my adult rescues about 6 yrs ago with the blessing of my vet after a long discussion with her about it and what I had found in my research.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Besides all the other reasons given for getting rabies vaccine, it's my understanding that most vets will not treat a cat unless it has had a rabies vaccine. Rabies vaccines usually last for 3 yrs. and don't need to be given annually. Fibrosarcomas can occur at the rabies injection site, but it is rare, and I think still worth the risk. If a lump is caught early, it is treatable and it can be removed surgically.
Rabies Vaccine Side Effects for Cats - VetInfo


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Ive NEVER had a vet refuse to treat any of our over 1000 fosters from our rescue because of not being vaccinated. 

Ive had several experiences of cats dying from vaccinations. With all my work with feral cats and cats rescue off the streets, never once have they had rabies. To me it way not worth the risk to vaccinate. Most cats dont survive when they get cancer even if the lumps are removed. Its anguishing to love and care for cats dying from unneeded vaccinations which destroyed thier health and took their lives. From my personnal experiences with this.


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## Vivid Dawn (May 31, 2010)

I was worried about the sarcoma issue, and nearly didn't give Zinny (my newest kitty) ANY shots, because I had promised her that she would have a GOOD life (she was a feral that I decided to keep).
My vet gives injections down in the limbs...that way, if a sarcoma does happen, they can amputate a limb to save the life of the rest of the cat. I figure that was okay, so went ahead with it.

The rescue group I volunteer for gives their shots between the shoulders. I know that if a sarcoma is there, it's near impossible to treat or get rid of even with surgical removal. I asked the medical person about it, and she said that in thousands of injections she's given, she's never heard of any bad side effects like that.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

My cat bit me last week, completely justified. If I had developed an infection and had to see an MD I think it would have been reported and w/o a vaccine I think poor Boots would have lost his head to Animal Control.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Jacq said:


> Thank you for the insight, M&T. It took a while, but I did find Sissy's story. You did a good thing there, but it sounds like her pain was due to vet incompetence, and not so much as a direct result of the vaccine


The cancerous lump was a direct result of the vaccine according to my own peronnal vet.


Another vet who occasionally works for the shelter removed the lump 5 times which made it spread faster and put Sissy thru h e l l recovering and being ill in an over crowded room with agreesive frustrated shelter cats. It was a giant cluster muck all the way around for my poor girl.


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## yingying (Jul 19, 2011)

To ppl who don't vaccine their cat because they heard/read all kind of scary stories: I have heard many stories about ppl chocked to death, ppl being hit by a car while crossing street (almost happened to me once), and ppl slept to death. Does that stop me from eating, walking on the street, or sleeping? There are cats died during s/n surgery. Would you be against s/n because of it? There is nothing safe in this world. There is a fine line between being cautious and paranoid.

What's the odd of cat getting cancer from rabies vaccine? Give us numbers please! And when a vet/cat owner find a lump, what test did they do to confirm the lump is a direct result from rabies vaccine? 

When you decide if you want to give rabies vaccine to your cat (or make any kind of decision), you need to weigh the pros and cons. To me, the pros far outweight the cons.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

But would you sleep in a room with a fan on?


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

yingying said:


> To ppl who don't vaccine their cat because they heard/read all kind of scary stories: I have heard many stories about ppl chocked to death, ppl being hit by a car while crossing street (almost happened to me once), and ppl slept to death. Does that stop me from eating, walking on the street, or sleeping? There are cats died during s/n surgery. Would you be against s/n because of it? There is nothing safe in this world. There is a fine line between being cautious and paranoid.
> 
> What's the odd of cat getting cancer from rabies vaccine? Give us numbers please! And when a vet/cat owner find a lump, what test did they do to confirm the lump is a direct result from rabies vaccine?
> 
> When you decide if you want to give rabies vaccine to your cat (or make any kind of decision), you need to weigh the pros and cons. To me, the pros far outweight the cons.


I hope your not saying people on this forum sharing thier experiences dont do the research or have valid opinions from both.

Continued yearly vaccinations is a hot debate right now in the rescue community. More and more vets are not doing yearly vacs because of the research. 

Im with a small group of cat lovers that do TNR and rescue. We banded together to do TNR/rescue because the local shelter we all volunteered with didnt give proper medical care to the cats. Our biggest conviction starting our group is we would get the best medical care for the ferals and abandoned companion cats we foster. Weve done over 3000 cats since 2006 when we started.

The reason I started researching about vaccinations is because of the sheer number of bad experiences we were having involving vaccinations and when were were vaccinating new rescues after surgeries.

There is research documenting the bad effects of over vaccinating. Esp the one out of Madison Wisconsin researcher. Plus number provided by thethe Federal government with info of what kind of animals contracted rabies. 

I did say in an earlier post to do the research. I would never want some one to do something because I shared a scary story. But Im also from the generation that said to question authority. Views evolve. Whether smoking is safe. Declawing is humane. Lay your baby on its back to avoid crib death. On and on. I like this forum because it has so many knowledable kind people on it. And passionate TNR and rescue/fosterers who passionately care about cats.


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## yingying (Jul 19, 2011)

Dave_ph said:


> But would you sleep in a room with a fan on?


I don't most of the time, but I do occasionally during hot summer days. 

But... how is that related to the discussion?


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## yingying (Jul 19, 2011)

> I hope your not saying people on this forum sharing thier experiences dont do the research or have valid opinions from both.


No, by no means I was implying this. But unfortunately, in this post I didn't see any results or information about any research related to the topic. All I've read is something like "I have personally seen ...", "I've had several experience ...", "Another vet ... removed the lump ... ". Sorry, those are by no means research. 

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not even questioning if those stories are true. I believe they are. However, since you work for a rescue, you see more cats than most ppl do, so propotionally you see more cats having any kind of issue. My mom is a doctor, she possibly see more death in a day than I would in my entire life. That doesn't mean she would be scared for her life all the time. 



> There is research documenting the bad effects of over vaccinating. Esp the one out of Madison Wisconsin researcher. Plus number provided by thethe Federal government with info of what kind of animals contracted rabies.


I have no doubt there were unfortunate cats died from rabies vaccines. To prove something exists, you only need one example. However, to say something happen fairly frequent, you need statistics with a large, unscrewed sample. This is all about the odd. Say, out of 10000 cats, randomly drawn from an unbiased population, how many will develop cancer directly induced by rabies vaccines? Do you have a number or do you know a research that makes such observation? (If you have both, I would prefer to see the research publication, because many times the setup of the experiments has an impact on the result.) 

Now, say, if the odd of getting cancer from rabits is 0.1%, would someone willing to take the risk? Then it's totally up to each person. We all have our threshold. But, keep in mind that rabies is deadly, to both cat and human. Also keep in mind that a strictly indoor cat may sneak out and get bitten by a racoon, a stray cat, or even a squirrel. And though I don't have data to back me up, I do believe the chance of your cat get lost is higher than it gets cancer from rabies shot. 



> But Im also from the generation that said to question authority.


I fully agree with your attitude to question authority. But I would like to add that, authority not only includes government, vet association, and your vet. It also include person who has more experience than you in a certain area, because, as I mentioned before, their view may be skewed due to their frequent exposure toward certain scenarios. And, the authority even include many, many research done by reputable institutions. If my education taught me anything, then that is there is a huge leap between data to fact, and even between fact to conclusion. Do you have experience that reading a research saying drinking coffee is bad, then the next day some other research says coffee is good, then the other day coffee is killing you again?


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

yingying said:


> Sorry, it should be skewed, not screwed :lol: I hate the 5 mins editing limits...


Ya, whats up with that 5 minute rule! While wereyou at it, lets question that too! LOL.


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

yingying said:


> I don't most of the time, but I do occasionally during hot summer days.
> 
> But... how is that related to the discussion?


Fan death is an urban legend in Korea, that says sleeping with the fan on will somehow suck all the oxygen out of the room and kill the sleeper. They even sell special modified "death free" fan attachments to protect people.


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## yingying (Jul 19, 2011)

Jacq said:


> Fan death is an urban legend in Korea, that says sleeping with the fan on will somehow suck all the oxygen out of the room and kill the sleeper. They even sell special modified "death free" fan attachments to protect people.


 
Wow, that gonna be a very powerful fan! :lol:

I wonder if the same ppl who buy "death free fan" has heard of oxygen intoxication (and this is NOT an urban legend!). If so, I guess they would never go into any room that has a living plant :lol:


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

Mitts & Tess said:


> Ya, whats up with that 5 minute rule! While wereyou at it, lets question that too! LOL.


I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind the 5 minute editing rule? since we're on the topic


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

It was instigated in 2010 to prevent people from deleting posts and making threads nonsensical, I think. At least, that's the official explanation.

Reading between the lines it looks like there was a problem with edit wars between mods and members.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Please stay on topic, this thread is not about the 5 minute editing rule...unfortunately you can thank fellow members for the need as it has been proven time and again that editing capability has been abused.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

I was just being humorous!


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm being oppressed by the 5 minute editing rule.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Laughing dave. We were all trying to bring a bit of levity to this thread since it was getting way too serious.


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

was just wondering since it came up


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## Catmamma (Apr 18, 2011)

Hi. Back to the vaccines. Is it possible that some vets got bad vaccines? And maybe the cancer cause/trigger was in the batch that Sissy's got? 
I have avoided vaccinating my 16 year old indoor calico because her immune system is "iffy." But I do vaccinate the farm cats--when I can catch them--because they are around all kinds of "critters." 
The "law" is my town's ordinance. We have to have rabies tags for all pets. I do think that annual vaccination is overkill for indoor animals. I like the three year vaccination that is recommended by some vets.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Jacq said:


> You've all given me very good advice and things to think about. Thank you!! I think we'll go ahead and get her started with the rabies vaccine (no rush, though, maybe at her next check up), and then just give her the booster before we travel.
> 
> 
> I still haven't found anything really against the vaccine. Doing a search on Little Big Cat, the first article I read about vaccination...
> Stopped reading right there :roll: - this site needs to _vet_ its articles a bit more (ha! pun!). Last I checked, kitties are immune to placebo effects.


Ok, you want proof? Here you go:

American Veterinary Medical Association
Vaccinations

One specifically about vaccine related sarcomas (cancer):
Researchers probe vaccine-associated feline sarcoma - September 15, 2004

Vaccination Resources

Rabies and sarcomas:
Feline Vaccines: Benefits and Risks

American Association of Feline Practitioners' guideline
Feline Practitioner Guidelines Publications

I'd also like to comment on this specifically:



Jacq said:


> Stopped reading right there :roll: - this site needs to _vet_ its articles a bit more (ha! pun!). Last I checked, kitties are immune to placebo effects.


Vaccine reactions aren't placebos. Sure, sometimes they might be, but just go ask your doctor. Personally I feel drained and exhausted the day I get my vaccines, and I get a wicked bruise and sore arm at the injection site. Not a placebo, a reaction.

Also.... Let me google that for you Ta da! Look how hard it was to find page after page of articles (many by vets) on possible adverse reactions.

Maybe you think we're over reacting...think of it this way. If you give your kitty one rabies vaccine you'll probably be fine. Two? sure, three?? maybe. According to the AMVA as many as 1:1000 cats who recieve a vaccine will develope a sarcoma...did you read the Hunger Games?

You know how each child can get tessara? And each time they do they put their name in the draw more times? So eventaully Katniss has her name in the draw 20 times at the age of 17? Yeah...kinda like vaccinating every year. 

The more vaccines you give at once the higher chance of sarcoma. The rabies vaccine has been very losely linked to sarcomas as well. So, if you, like many people, go to the vet once a year and get your cat vaccinated for the core vaccines (between 3-5 in one) and also rabies you're putting their name in the draw 4-6 times a year. Get it?

So, assuming you go with a 3 way shot, and don't count the kitten year ('cause that would be REALLY bad luck) the second year they get 4 shots, so 4/1000. The next year 4 more: 8/1000. The next year 4: 12/1000...see my point?

Basically it's a very personal choice. Based on my (extensive/obsessive) research I will not be vaccinating Jitzu for rabies anymore. The other three will be kept up to date (as is the legal requirement) until they are 8 years old, at which point they won't get it anymore. I'm very lucky because here legal requirement is 3 years, not 1.

Anyways, decide what you will. But you should know WHY we want to educate you, not mae fun of us that choose to educate ourselves.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Here is an exert from a long article on vaccinating. It also has some numbers that yingying asked about. 

Yes, vet Oncologist and my own vet did say Sissy got fibrosarcoma from the vaccination. Im home now and on my computer and found the name of the new the new type of rabies vaccine. The Merial Purevax recombinant vaccine, it can be used in place of the older killed vaccines that can cause injection-site tumors.
One of my vets which uses it says its still a bit pricey but as more vets use it the price will come down

Vaccination | Little Big Cat

*Vaccine-Associated Sarcomas (VAS).* Many people have heard about the malignant, fatal tumors called fibrosarcomas that can be caused by some vaccines in cats. This cancer occurs in the connective tissue. Research in dogs shows that vaccines cause autoantibodies to be made to many connective tissue components. The two vaccines currently implicated are rabies and feline leukemia. A third will no doubt join the list—the feline AIDS (FIV) vaccine. What do these three products have in common? They are all killed vaccines spiked with “adjuvants” (compounds that increase the immune system’s response to the vaccine). Unfortunately, in cats, this additional response includes inflammation that can lead to the formation of cancer. Even worse, every additional vaccine—indeed, some researchers suggest that every additional injection of any kind (antibiotics, steroids, fluids, etc.)—may significantly increase the risk of developing cancer, particularly if the injections are given in the same place. Merial is working on non-adjuvant vaccines for feline leukemia, FIV, and other diseases.
The incidence of VAS is at least 1 in 10,000 cats, and some studies suggest it may be as high as 1 in 1,000 cats. Let’s think about that number for a minute. There are 90 million cats in U.S. homes today; so between 90,000 and 900,000 (almost a million!) of them will develop a fatal cancer caused by vaccination. There may be a genetic susceptibility to this cancer, but there is no way to check for this genetic defect. What if one of those cats is yours?
When vaccines were given between the shoulder blades, these cancers were inoperable because they would grow into the spine, ribcage, and chest. This became such a serious problem that now it is recommended to give the rabies vaccine in the right hind leg, and leukemia in the left hind leg—so that when a tumor does develop, the whole leg can be amputated and thus the cat’s life can be saved. I guess the FIV vaccine will have to be given in the tail, so it too can be whacked off in the event of cancer!!!
Recently, the same vaccine-associated tumors have been reported in both dogs and ferrets. While these species are more resistant, obviously they are not immune.



Rabies vaccination is required by law in many states and municipalities, and must be up-to-date to transport animals from state to state. Check with your local animal control to find out what is needed in your area. Ideally, for cats the Merial Purevax recombinant vaccine can be used in place of the older killed vaccines that can cause injection-site tumors.


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## LaurulFeatherCat (Sep 16, 2011)

There is a down side to not having the cat vaccinated. Two years ago I had one of my rescue ferals die of a neurological problem. She got more and more ataxic as she got older and finally stopped eating and drinking and had to be put down. The last vet to take care of her recognized what she thought was a syndrome seen only in kittens born to mothers who are carriers of rabies. The vet sent PK's brain to the State lab and she was positive for live neurological rabies infection. Apparently the virus had colonized her brain and spinal cord and when I had her vaccinated, it was too late because she picked it up from her mother. Her mother had disappeared off the streets where he had found the kittens roaming around alone, so we have no idea what happened to the infected mother, if she was an active carrier and infecting others or not. The mother had no sx of rabies herself but the 'owner' said the cat had never had a vaccination in her life.

Luckily all my cats had been vaccinated for rabies within a year of getting PK, so my cats were spared the attention of the State lab.


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## sinthesis (May 29, 2012)

catloverami said:


> Rabies vaccines usually last for 3 yrs. and don't need to be given annually. Fibrosarcomas can occur at the rabies injection site, but it is rare, and I think still worth the risk. If a lump is caught early, it is treatable and it can be removed surgically.
> Rabies Vaccine Side Effects for Cats - VetInfo


This is true---they do last longer than a year, but I know in many states in the US, like mine, they don't yet recognize that fact and require it yearly. From what I've read, the key to safe vaccinations lies in the purity of the vaccine. I think the brand my vet uses is Pur Vax or Pure Vac, or something along those lines. She says it's the purest one out there. All those extra things that they put in others can cause bad side effects.


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## Jacq (May 17, 2012)

Again, thank you for the advice.
Librarychick, I would very much like to address this point, though;


librarychick said:


> Vaccine reactions aren't placebos. Sure, sometimes they might be, but just go ask your doctor. Personally I feel drained and exhausted the day I get my vaccines, and I get a wicked bruise and sore arm at the injection site. Not a placebo, a reaction.


Did you read the portion I quoted? It recommended homeopathic treatments after infections to prevent long-term problems. Homeopathy, in case you're unaware, is a non-scientific alternative 'medicine' with zero demonstrable efficacy. My reference to the placebo effect was in regards to homeopathy's effectiveness. People find benefit in homeopathic treatments because of the placebo effect - cats, however, are pretty immune to being sucked by talk of "diluted potency" and magical "succession."

If my cat was sick, and someone told me she'd get better if I rubbed dirt on her left foreleg while chanting "mousey wousey", I'd call them crazy and seek advice elsewhere. When a website tells me effectively the same thing, I'm likewise going to treat the rest of their advice with skepticism.

Also, in terms of statistics, nothing in the links you've posted (nor your cheeky lmgtfy link) made any mention of the effects of vaccination being compounded with multiple shots. Think of it like a coin toss: My chances of getting heads once is 1/2; my chances of getting head a second time are 1/2, and a third time 1/2. The coin does not "remember" how it landed the last time - in the same way water doesn't "remember" being in a solution with a molecule of another substance at a 100000x dilution. 

I will read your links more carefully later tonight and may reply again. I do appreciate you providing me information. I do, however, think you're overreacting when you don't seem to have a solid grasp of the statistics involved.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Jacq said:


> Again, thank you for the advice.
> Librarychick, I would very much like to address this point, though;
> 
> Did you read the portion I quoted? It recommended homeopathic treatments after infections to prevent long-term problems. Homeopathy, in case you're unaware, is a non-scientific alternative 'medicine' with zero demonstrable efficacy. My reference to the placebo effect was in regards to homeopathy's effectiveness. People find benefit in homeopathic treatments because of the placebo effect - cats, however, are pretty immune to being sucked by talk of "diluted potency" and magical "succession."
> ...


I did read it but I must have misunderstood, so here is my reaction to what you meant.

I agree with you, or at least I used to. I looked at anything holistic with a very skeptical attitude, until it worked for my pets. I'm going to skip the heartfelt monologue about trying anything and everything that was 'scientifically supported' and how it didn't work for Jitzu...but that's what happened. I spoke with many different vets, none of whom could suggest anything I hadn't already tried.

And then I switched her to raw food. Problem solved. However that doesn't mean I did it blindly. I did 6 months worth of research before I fed my cats any raw meat, but once I did the results spoke for themselves.

But still, I was skeptical about the rest of the holistic stuff, and then it happened again. Jitzu got herpes and once again nothing the vets suggested did anything to help long term. And once again the holistic remedies I found worked much better.

That doesn't mean it's for everyone, or that you should go out and just start dosing your cats with random things. That's just not safe. But it can be used ALONG WITH conventional medicine. Everything I've given Jitzu I ask my vet about first. She knows what I'm trying and enjoys chatting with me about what is or isn't helping and why she thinks that is. She also does her own research on the vet forums and websites and I am always careful to follow her advice and suggestions.

I'm not saying dance around in circles and that will fix your cat. I'm saying that sometimes using holistic medicine alongside a scientific approach can be what makes the difference between wasting away (what Jitzu was slowly doing without holistic supplements), and living well if not thriving.



Jacq said:


> Also, in terms of statistics, nothing in the links you've posted (nor your cheeky lmgtfy link) made any mention of the effects of vaccination being compounded with multiple shots. Think of it like a coin toss: My chances of getting heads once is 1/2; my chances of getting head a second time are 1/2, and a third time 1/2. The coin does not "remember" how it landed the last time - in the same way water doesn't "remember" being in a solution with a molecule of another substance at a 100000x dilution.
> 
> I will read your links more carefully later tonight and may reply again. I do appreciate you providing me information. I do, however, think you're overreacting when you don't seem to have a solid grasp of the statistics involved.


I'm glad you liked the link, it's a favorite of mine  (and yes it was sassy, I'm a bit sassy sometimes)

I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree. The articles I cited do mention (if briefly) that repeat vaccinations have been shown to be a factor in the development of sarcomas. Maybe I was a bit dramatic about it, but it is a factor.

I want to be clear that I'm not saying that no one should ever vaccinate. I'm saying that it's important to be well informed, from good sources, so that you can make the best decision for your pets and your family.

Personally I believe that we over vaccinate our pets and that the risks haven't been investigated thoroughly enough. Because of this and all the time I've spent learning about this topic I've made a decision for myself and my animals. That doesn't mean it's what's right for your family, but you have the right to all the information. 

I feel that vets don't discuss the negative aspects of vaccination enough, every vet I've ever seen would have been happy to vaccinate my pets for a wide range of things every year, without telling me any of the risks involved. More pets have reactions than you think.

I taught dog training classes at PetSmart for 3 years and I could usually guess if a puppy had been given a shot within the last 48 hours. About 50% of the time with adult dogs. No, these dogs weren't seizing, swelling, ect. But they were having reactions, just mild ones. Even if it was a simple lack of focus/attention, or lethargy.

The reason this is important to me is because reactions can increase over time. As an example of this I'll use my sister. She has been stung by bees many times, about once every 2 years. The first time she was stung it was an average bee sting, not a problem. But ever since then every time she gets stung she has a more serious reaction. The last time she was stung it was just above her wrist, within 4 hours the swelling had extended along her whole arm, neck, and up to her eye. It's very likely that next time she may need an epi-pen.

There are likely some cats who will have similar escalating reactions to their vaccines. All four of my cats have shown mild reactions when given a multiple shot, so I consider very carefully (along with my vet) whether they really need it. If I could afford it I would have them titer tested, except for rabies because the law doesn't say anything about titers and therefore they aren't valid.

Yes, not giving rabies after 8 years old is a risk, but Jitzu is chronically ill...does her immune system really need to fight anything else off? I don't think so. My cats are indoor cats, so the likely-hood of them being exposed is very low. In addition there have been under 10 reported cases of rabies (in any type of animal) in my province in the last 50 years...so I'm not super concerned about that factor.

Anyways, to end this novel of a post I'll reiterate that this is a personal decision that YOU make for YOUR pets. Do your own research and act appropriately for your family. End of story.


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## Meezer_lover (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm actually going through some rabies/vaccine concern right now with Yoshi....

On 5/5 he got his yearly vaccines, which is just distemper/upper respiratory and rabies. Rabies is state law here. Our vet doesn't like over-vaccinating, so these are the only ones she recommends for Yoshi, who is indoor only and has no exposure to other animals.

This past Saturday, we noticed a lump on his right rear leg. Come to find out, that is where they injected the rabies vac. Of course I became super concerned and brought him to the vet this morning after talking to them yesterday.

She looked at his lump (which appears to have gone down slightly in size over the past couple of days). She said that if it were her own cat, she would not be concerned at this point. We had a long conversation about vaccines and she told me the following:

-Yoshi's lump was definitely from the vaccine, but it is likely just inflammation
-Inflammation from vaccines isn't super common, but it does happen
-Give it at least another month, monitor it daily to see if the size continues to decrease. 
-In her experience, she has never seen a sarcoma form in young cats (Yoshi's not even 1.5 years old yet)
-She believes that sarcomas form after years of repeated vaccinations, which is why she is against over vaccination
-She always does the injections in the legs, therefore their lives can be saved if cancer does occur (legs can be amputated)

The good thing about our vet is that she has always warned us before giving Yoshi vaccines. Our last vet NEVER once (in the 8 years that Sumo lived) mentioned the risks. 

She also said that we don't need to do distemper, that the only one she would still recommend is the upper respiratory which is available by itself and also available in nasal form so there would be no injection.

Although she didn't really tell me anything that I hadn't already read about, it was still nice to discuss it with her in person. 

Hopefully Yoshi's lump will continue to get smaller and we won't have to worry about it for at least another 3 years (he got the 3 year Merial one).

Just thought I'd add my experience since it's so fresh. I'm no expert....even the experts aren't experts these days.


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## librarychick (May 25, 2008)

Kimberly, did your vet mention anything aboutpossible reactions down the road? It's been my experience that once a pet has had one reaction they are more likely to experience reactions again, and it's possible that they will get worse.

I'm glad to hear your vet seems to be well educated on the topic, I'd suggest giving her a call and asking what her recommendations are for further vaccinations down the line. And then make sure to thank her for doing such a great job! Positive reinforcement works on people too 

For Yoshi's current problem did she suggest anything you could do that might help make him a bit more comfortable or reduce the swelling? A hot compress might help reduce the swelling, for example. 

I hope he feels better soon! He's such a cute kitty!


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Ive read, if it is documented in a dog or cats medical records reactions to vaccination or compromised immune system, etc. a vet can legally excuse a pet from having rabies or other vaccinations.You might want to consider this for Yoshi! He is such a cutie! :luv

I hope this is just a mild reaction. Your vet might want to inform Merial of the reaction from the vaccine shot. You sound like you have a good vet.


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## LaurulFeatherCat (Sep 16, 2011)

My cats get their three year rabies vaccine, all except for one that has liver failure and the vet said she does not need the extra stress on her system the vaccination would cause. I would rather treat an early sarcoma than risk my cats getting rabies and having to have all them euthanized and brains sent to the State lab.

You have to pick your fights and decide how much risk you want to personally assume. This is probably the last year I will financially able to rescue and tame feral kittens. I kept up rabies vaccines because of the risk of bringing strays into my home (even though I do quarrentine for 45 days, minimum), and I was very glad when it was found PK had neurological rabies. My cats won't have that risk of contact with strays any more, so I need to decide whether I will continue the rabies for the older cats or not. If you transport your cats with the state you live in and especially if you travel with them over state lines, most state require you have vaccinations up to date and proof of those vaccinations with you. I ran into this one year when I took my Persian kitten with me on vacation to Florida. I was stopped and had to produce the vaccination certificate twice on the trip.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

LaurulFeatherCat said:


> If you transport your cats with the state you live in and especially if you travel with them over state lines, most state require you have vaccinations up to date and proof of those vaccinations with you. I ran into this one year when I took my Persian kitten with me on vacation to Florida. I was stopped and had to produce the vaccination certificate twice on the trip.




That was bad luck for you LaurulFeather! 

I’ve flown 3 different cats across country in the last couple years on Delta and Continental Airlines. The airlines DIDNT required a health certificate to accompany the cats. The airlines were more interested in the size of the kennel I was carrying on board! And taking the cat out of the carrier to check for Bombs! (Give me a freaken break. What moron thought up the idea of removing a stressed animal from a crate in a busy noisy airport?)


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## Fran (Jan 9, 2008)

[Merry - that last story about TSA checking the cat carrier sounds truly insane...!]

Just chiming in here - we just took Gracie for her annual check-up, and discussed the need to update her vaccinations since we are thinking of traveling with her (probably via motorhome) when our son heads off to college. He is going to attend a university in the Central Valley area, right near Yosemite - definitely a high incidence of rabies in the local animals. Gracie has not had any shots since kittenhood, she just turned five. 

The vet and I had a thorough discussion of pros and cons, adjuvants, non-adjuvant vaccinations and their safety record, risk of sarcoma, etc. At her recommendation Gracie got the rabies and feline upper respiratory vaccines only, in the safer non-adjuvant forms. I opted against the nasal spray version of the upper respiratory vaccine, since the vet thought that the shot would confer protection for easily more than three years, rather than the spray which loses effectiveness in a year. 

She also recommended and gave me the thuja homeopathic. I showed her an herbal immune support which I have been giving Gracie when she reacts to flea bites - a sterol (adaptogen). She told me "adaptogens are all the rage now" in herbal practice, and suggested that Gracie get a dose of immune support daily for a week while she recuperates from the shots. 

In my experience with myself and my family, homeopathics and herbal remedies work really well for some concerns, and not so well in others. I have found them to be really useful for inflammation, allergy, pain or bruising and histamine reactions. Cats can't tolerate all the full range of remedies that humans (and dogs) can, but many are safe and useful. 

Fran


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## Meezer_lover (Apr 19, 2011)

librarychick said:


> Kimberly, did your vet mention anything aboutpossible reactions down the road? It's been my experience that once a pet has had one reaction they are more likely to experience reactions again, and it's possible that they will get worse.


She did not mention that, and I didn't think to ask either. I'll have to do some research on that.

The inflammation that is present is not painful to him (we can touch it all we want and he doesn't even notice). May add some digestive enzymes to his diet, as I believe that can help with inflammation in some cases.


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