# A spay/neuter thoughts and a possible debate...



## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

On another forum, someone posted they had a young manx cat get out the door and possibly get bred by male strays. She wanted to know if she could have her vet stop the spay (appt. next week) if they found she was pregnant.

I replied that I thought it would be irresponsible to waste the veterinarian's time that way, and why endanger the cat by finding out pregnancy status after surgically opening the cat. I advised her to either continue with the spay appointment and ask the Dr to not tell her if her kitty was indeed pregnant or change the appointment to a pregnancy check if she wished to allow her cat to birth.

Then someone replied (anthropomorphising) about _'how could we deny any living thing the indescribeable bond of love associated with having babies'_ and how she felt every being should have the right to birth at least once. To make this even more unusual (to my thinking) she volunteers at a shelter and fully understands the pet overpopulation problem.

*Anyhow, I guess what I would like to discuss, is spaying, and spaying pregnant cats in particular.*
...the scenario I wish to discuss...
Pregnant cat who is feral and cannot be spayed at any point without having to spay-terminate a pregnancy.

How would this situation be resolved between differing people who either see spaying as 'do it no matter what' and people who prefer to let the pregnancy take its' course and spay afterwards? Specifically, what if the feral cat cannot be spayed 'afterwards' because from being feral, she got pregnant again on her birthing-heat? I think this would create a conundrum from which there is no moral end for the live-and-let-live beliefs.
Can a person who views all life as precious and cannot bring themselves to terminate, be able to understand why this (spay-termination in the above situation) is sometimes necessary?

In this situation, I feel s/n could only be done by spay-termination of a pregnancy, especially if there is no where to keep this feral mother and her litter(s) safely until the kittens are weaned and she can be spayed knowing she is not pregnant.


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## carolsclan (Jun 28, 2006)

Heidi one of my ferals became pregnant last year ... the so and so escaped from her room .. and was out in a flash ...... of course she came back in a few days .. but I took her to the vet and had her spayed ....

I discussed this issue you mentioned with the vet ... in our sitaution in South Africa there was no choice .... is wasnt nice but I had her spayed .. and aborted 4 kittens .

The trouble is ... where would I have found homes for 4 kittens ???? homes that would have ensured the kittens were spayed etc .

IMO honest opinion if a cat needs to be spayed especially a feral then the responsible thing to do is to do it , its lousy but life is lousy .. at least we are preventing more kittens.

A feral that is on the loose that can be caught and spayed , must be spayed regardless of kittens . IMO

I was given a lot of flack about rescuing ... now I have 11 cats ... I have lost 6 in the past two years .... how many possible litters has that prevented ????? 

I see to much tragedy here .. spaying/neutering is THE only option.


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## Jet Green (Nov 28, 2005)

I understand why some people aren't willing to terminate any cat's pregnancy. Many people regard unborn litters as _faits accompli_ that they have no right to tinker with. That's a personal choice and I respect it. And I personally am a little queasy about it into the third trimester, just because they are so far along in their development. But before that, I think it's appropriate to abort.

I can only think of it as a lifeboat. Every home willing to adopt a cat, every shelter space, and every environmental niche where a feral cat can live is a seat on the lifeboat. The sad truth is that there are many, many more cats than seats. Every new kitten born, even if they go right into a loving home, displaces another cat or kitten who could have been rescued instead.

There's no way to sugarcoat it: cats are killed in absolutely sickening numbers, everywhere, daily, by animal control agencies and shelters. Every kitten born means that somewhere down the line, another cat is going to die. I don't like the idea of aborting kittens, I really don't. But given the choice between a litter of first- or second-trimester kittens and an equal number of already-born cats, I have to side with the latter.

Everybody has to make their own choice on this. I hope we can continue to respect one another's positions.


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## hollypetsit (Apr 20, 2008)

Personally I would keep the kittens. I don't see why they can't have a chance at life, even though there are thousands of cats out there already. It wasn't there fault.

I have a Guinea pig that I just adopted that might be pregnant. I am going to have her and the babies checked out and then I will keep them. Yes I have room, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I didn't plan on having more than 2 guinea pigs, but the babies shouldn't suffer.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

hollypetsit said:


> Personally I would keep the kittens. I don't see why they can't have a chance at life, even though there are thousands of cats out there already. It wasn't there fault.


I understand your point, and I have kept litters of kittens w/out aborting them, except for one instance.
You seem to have missed my point about this discussion, which is this:


Heidi n Q said:


> Specifically, what if the feral cat cannot be spayed 'afterwards' because from being feral, she got pregnant again on her birthing-heat?


_How does a person reconcile s/n and litter-aborting in situations where there is NO chance of spaying except with the possible/certain probability of a pregnancy?_ 
The situation: a nursing feral, pregnant with next litter, no place to trap/hold mother and babies to allow weaning, birthing and taming to spay when known to not be pregnant. In this situation, the cat must be trapped and spayed in whatever condition it is found in. If a person was to wait until she were not pregnant I think the cat would never be spayed because she would be in a constant state of pregnancy.


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## nklincoln (Aug 2, 2005)

Beans adopted us and when I took her in to have her spayed, she was pregnant. I went ahead and had the kittens terminated. Didn't like it but knew it was the best thing for her and the kittens.


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## Kittys Mom (May 7, 2004)

It is a tough call. In a feral situation, I don't see that there is much choice. If there is no way to keep the cat until after the kittens are born and THEN spay the mother later, then spay/terminate is necessary.

I have to say though...I have problems when they do the spay and take out the kittens and they are so developed that they need to be quickly euthanized. I have volunteered with a s/n van that did feral populations. I always update all the computer records while they do the surguries in the back of the van.

I try not to look back there too much.


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## Heidi n Q (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh, I think that would be so very hard to do. I admit I never gave a thought about the people attending these types of spays.

I had to have Pretty's 2nd litter terminated. I already had her 1st litter in my bathroom and nowhere to keep her inside to birth the 2nd litter and tame her. She was extremely feral at the time and I do not think she would have handled captivity and kittens well at all. 
I had a friend who trapped a feral who had her litter in captivity and she couldn't handle the captivity stress and canibalized her litter. Only one kitten survived.


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## hollypetsit (Apr 20, 2008)

I understand that this would be very hard to come up with a solution and that sometimes the only possibility is to have the fetuses aborted. I have never been in the situation, but I know quite a few people who would help me with the feral mother and if need be, raise the kittens for her. I couldn't get the pregnancy terminated, unless there was some concern for the mother and or babies. I would be devastated and it would haunt me for the rest of my life.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

Heide there is no choice.

You and I both know once a feral is in a trap they most likely wont fall for it again down the line. My TNR group has trapped feral females which turned out to be pregnant. The vet said if we hadnt gone thru with the spay it would of meant the death of the mother because their uterus was so worn out from pregnancy after pregnancy from an early age. Their uteruses were jelly masses. 


I read its estimated there are over 60 million feral cats in the US alone. times that with the view of "'how could we deny any living thing the indescribeable bond of love associated with having babies" doesnt understand over 40% of feral cats kittens die horrible deaths. Plus the HSUS estimates that a pair of breeding cats and their offspring can exponentially produce over 400,000 cats in 7 years. These cats will have poor nutrician, die horrible deaths, uncared for and sickly which is the fate of most of the ferals.

My group has had to turn away over 5 litters this month cuz there just wasnt room or people to bottle feed and raise the babies. 4 of the litters didnt make it. Owls, coyotes, and mother didnt have enough milk, etc. Spaying makes the most sense even if they are pregnant. It gives the mother a fight chance.

Side note ~ we only S/N colonies which people are willing to feed and give shelter to. There are so many out there we can pick and choose and we feel this is giving feral cats more of a fighting chance. Rather than S/N a cat and dump them back out there to be picked off right away.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

hollypetsit said:


> I understand that this would be very hard to come up with a solution and that sometimes the only possibility is to have the fetuses aborted. I have never been in the situation, but I know quite a few people who would help me with the feral mother and if need be, raise the kittens for her. I couldn't get the pregnancy terminated, unless there was some concern for the mother and or babies. I would be devastated and it would haunt me for the rest of my life.


Hollypetsit Im going to say this and you need to understand this is said in kindness, compassion, and experience *no harshness*. When you take on a litter of kittens this is what is involved. 

Here is an experience from just one litter. (now times that to every litter in the US if were ever going to get this under control _without_ spaying a pregnant female. 

We took on a feral cat's litter. Kittens were 2 weeks old. It turned out the kittens need to be feed every 2-3 hour in a 24 hour period for 3 weeks. (its exhausting.) We found out the kittens had ring worm and eye problems. It was expensive to treat them. Without problems it costs over a hundred dollars a kitten to S/N, shots, well baby check up. 

Then kittens had to find a place to be moved to cuz the original home didnt have space for them. We had them in a garage. We gave them ring worm bathes every other day for 3 weeks while running them back and forth to vets. Two of the kittens turn out to be blind. 

We sat at adoption event for a year and half trying to find homes for all these guys. It was near impossible for the blind ones. One ended up being returned. Another 5 months of adoption events. It was a huge effort for this litter. This was only one litter now times that and you will see what is faced in this country alone.


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## hollypetsit (Apr 20, 2008)

Mitts & Tess- I am sorry what you had to go through with the kittens. I would understand terminating a pregnancy if the mother was at risk. I have gone through lots of kittens needing to be bottle fed and given ring worm baths. I for one, would do it all over again and will if need be this year. The last ones I did it for were six kittens. I had to get up at 3 every morning plus give them ring worm baths. It sucked, but I would rather be exhausted, with little money, and know these kittens had a chance, then put any of them down. 

It sucks because I understand both sides. One side there are so many animals out there that they are getting put down at an alarming rate. And on the other side, the kittens should at least have a chance to live. All I am saying is, unless the mother is at risk or the kittens I would let them live and do whatever I could for them.


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

I guess Im stepping back and look at the big picture if were ever gona get this under control with out horrible deaths. Were both doing the same-- thing taking as many as we can to give them a life.

A woman called us and had 3 litters with ferals in her yard. We couldnt take them right now. We said leave them with the mom and well come get them in 5 weeks. Her father died that week and she kept finding dead kittens all over her yard all weeks. She was beyond stressed and upset. To me it would of been better to spay the pregnant mothers than have the kittens go thru such horrible deaths. Its a hard call. 

Bottom line is were all doing what we can for the kitties and they wouldnt have a chance without people like you to care for them.


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## Sowilu (Mar 14, 2007)

When Negra got pregnant I didn't have the money to get her spayed and the day I brought her in I was expecting for her to have the kitten in 2-3 weeks later but she had him the next day. I think the kitten would have been too developed for the vet to have done anything. 

I just rescued a female labrador on Jan of this year ( my father found her in the park) and she was pregnant. I am a high school student and didn't have the money to get her spayed but I posted her story on a dog forum and a bunch of people helped me out. I felt bad for the puppies but at the same time I didn't because I new they would be nobody elses responsiblities but mine and I could not handle the strees of whelping them and it would take a long time for me to get them a great home. When I got her back from the vet I asked him how many she had in her and he said "a LOT!", I knew I couldn't do it so as a responsible dog owner and animal lover I had to do the right thing to help Onix out.


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## hollypetsit (Apr 20, 2008)

"Bottom line is were all doing what we can for the kitties and they wouldn't have a chance without people like you to care for them."

I totally agree. We are all trying to do what we can for animals. I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they decided either way.

Sowilu- I am sorry for what you had to go through. I don't think I would take care of "A lot" of puppies. I commend you for what you did.


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## Sowilu (Mar 14, 2007)

hollypetsit said:


> Sowilu- I am sorry for what you had to go through. I don't think I would take care of "A lot" of puppies. I commend you for what you did.


Thank you I know a lot of ppl woudn't understand what I had to do but it was either doing that or rysking the mom into having them. Its complicated to have a malnurish dog have puppies. Onix weigh about 65lb with the puppies after the surgery she weighed about 43lbs. I believe it's extremely stressfull and they along with mom would need lots of care an attention a high school girl couldn't provide. I am happy to say she went to a great person in Florida and is living the wonderful life she deserves.


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## carolsclan (Jun 28, 2006)

When Ugly went walkabouts .. she actually bit through the wire of their gate to get out she was still very feral .... and I didnt want to try and have a litter of kittens with her being so wild and in captivity .....she was also only about 5 months old .

there are too many stray cats here as it is .... in this country I would say there isnt a choice .... its hard ...but in the long run its better to spay and abort .


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## PeaceLoveRescue (Feb 15, 2008)

We had Penny's kittens terminated when she was spayed; she was a week away from giving birth the vet figured.

If those kittens had been born the truth is that they would have probably been adopted very quickly as a lot of people around here want kittens they don't want an adult cat for whatever reason I assume because they are cute and they feel they get some special bond if they get a kitten then an adult. The adult cats some that have been looking for their forever homes for years will be overlooked. Luckily the shelter I'm a part of is a no kill but they don't have a building either and so rely on foster homes. Very few of these foster homes know how to deal with a nursing mom and growing kittens and the ones that do are already at their maximum number of cats that they feel they can foster.

I don't like it but I find it's a necessary evil.

Fixing your cat like any other animal not only keeps one from having to make such a hard choice but prevents some health problems as well has behavior problems. 

I understand some people want to have their children see the miracle of life or think it's best for the animal to have just one litter/baby. But it's at the animal's expense as well as those little innocents that were brought into the world. Then they had to raise them, and find proper homes which more then we like to believe don't find proper homes and either end up abused, dead or strays. But you kid an educational video and if your animal doesn't get pregnant it wont hurt her won’t traumatize her and it won’t make her hate you.

I think those who feel that pregnancy termination is wrong and a heinous crime as well as fixing your cat isn’t fully aware of the pet overpopulation problem. Of the numbers of animals that get put down every year because the kittens or puppies etc were cuter then the adults and in turn those adults ran out of time in kill shelters. Or they thought their mare should have just one baby because it would calm her down and then it dawns on them they have to care for this foal, the vet bills, train it etc and usually the foal ends up with behavior problems or gets sold to the kill buyer and ends up on a double-decker to Canada or Mexico. I find many of these people are selfish and don’t think about the animals in this case. I have a favorite quote from a blog I frequent and though it’s more aimed towards horses I find it fits well with any animal in general. 

"I mop up. I clean up the mess left by morons who just have to breed their mare." - Kill buyer Manny Phelps


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## Mitts & Tess (Sep 4, 2004)

I find alot of people who just have to have kittens dont want them for a life time of companionship. They dump them. Kittenhood is so short then reality of an adult cat they didnt adopt for the right reasons. 

Im so picky on who adopts the cats Ive fostered esp when it comes to kittens. It so much work and $ to get them healthy and ready to go to a good home.


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