# Introduction question still not answered...



## relaxd2 (May 31, 2007)

I have five total adult siamese. Three females, two males. One male is nuetered. The other is very bold and doesn't listen very well yet. My oldest female delivered six kittens three weeks ago. My second eldest female delivered five today. I did not anticipate this all at once, (hence my previous warnings to stagger their heats) either way I am running out of room. Kitties everywhere. Each mother and kittens has their own room, but the mothers roam the main house as they usually did. Each set of kittens are in their own sterile heated "box". The three week old kittens are ready to roam. I am afraid to let them loose in our room for fear of accidents, and I fear bringing them into the main house will spook mama to run with them in mouth back to our room or worse, kill them. Will the males or the other females hurt the babies? The nursing mothers wont stop trying to get into the others room and get into the other kitten's boxes. Why are they doing this? Any advice? :?


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Three week old Siamese are not ready to run through the house. You won't have to worry about that for a couple of weeks. A room is large enough. If each litter has its own room, leave it that way for now. Did you get a mentor to advise you? 

The nursing mothers can get pregnant now! You're going to have to isolate the females from the males. I very much doubt that the females will hurt each others kittens. However, for the sake of your females, keep the male in a "play pen" or another room when either of the females is not with the kittens. I'm afraid this will be a continuing problem. It's much better if the Tom is in another household with knowledgable owners. You're going to have females in season before you know it, and neither should have kittens that soon. 

I would find a good Siamese breeder to advise you before considering breeding the females again. Breeding should be very selective..for specific qualities, qualities that will improve or maintain a good standard. In the meantime, you will have to be very vigilant. Please keep the kittens and mother together for 12 weeks. They have much to learn about socialization before they leave her and the littermates. I wish you luck.


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## Lisa 216 (Oct 25, 2004)

I agree with Jeanie. It's not safe to let the kittens roam the house yet.

I hope you will consider spaying the mothers as soon as possible, since it's beneficial for their health in the long term  In the meantime, be sure to keep them separated from the tom!

Are you planning to keep the kittens, or have you found homes for them?


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Nothing to add because Jeanie gave you some great advice...

But I did want to ask....your comments sound like you're referring to previous posts (Introduction question still not answered..., hence my previous warnings to stagger their heats). Your post count is only showing as 1...either it didn't post properly or maybe it wasn't on this forum...


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## relaxd2 (May 31, 2007)

*reply*

I have not posted to any forum, actually. I worded it wrong. I have searched through the internet and other breeders. It all came up with conflicting answers. When I stumbled across your forum, the knowledge and expertise amazed me. Hence my first post. Last year, I started out with only a female and a male. I became sick resulting in five consecutive surgeries. This led me to having my neighbor watch over my cats. They lost the male and let the female get out with strays. Once I was well and realized what had happened, I ended up with a new mom and five mixed kittens and a male neutered and declawed by another neighbor. Terrible situation. After bringing them back home and to vet again, we rescued two other females from a worn out breeder, and obtained another male for replacement. I had been advised to stagger their heats so this would not happen, but as you can see I did not learn why til my mistake had been made. These litters are new from this year. The Tom is seperated from the females, unless under constant supervision. The females each have a baby box and their own room that the other cats are not allowed into. I will keep them to their own rooms til adoption day as you advised. 
I am planning on keeping them together for twelve weeks, worming, shots, etc. before adoption to only the best of homes. I am not planning to keep them. We have more than enough kitties. We have been considering adopting out a few of the adults also, considering they were initially rescues. The three week olds are clawing to get out of the box, is it safe to turn it on it's side and let them roam just the room?? Also, the younger new mom is very hesitant to stay in her room as my older is so dutiful about. I have to keep putting her back in and in the box to nurse. The kittens wail and all she is worried about is getting petted and out of the room. Is this normal for some cats?? Is there anything I can do to help her become more responsible as the other mother is?? Each mother is trying desperately to get into eachothers rooms still. Why is this, and should I ultimately let them share a room?


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Sometimes barn cats take care of each other's kittens, and that could be the case here. However, you would be taking a chance. As for the mothers leaving the rooms, that's only natural. Normally (when there's not a Tom around) they go in and out of the kittens' room after staying with them constantly for a few days. They would cry to go back in if they heard a a kitten call, or if they were too full of milk. At night, they would probably lie with them most of the time. So it's unfortunate that they can't have more freedom. They need love and attention. 

I would put the Tom in a large dog cage and let the mother cats have exercise. Of course, the doors to the kittens' rooms should be kept shut. To make sure the babies are safe, I would not let the mothers visit each other's litter. It could be safe, but don't take the chance. 

The Tom needs exercise too, so it would be great if the two mother cats had their exercise together (away from the kittens), with the Tom confined to a cat playpen or dog cage. And then the mother cats could return to their rooms. You would do this several times a day, at least. I know this is a lot of trouble, but it's the kind thing to do. 

I would let the kittens out with supervision only. They will be climbing out on their own soon. Between 4 and 5 weeks they will be able to eat soft kitten food, if you help them. Soon after, Mother will not be able to keep up with the clean up, and she and you can teach the little ones to scratch in the litter box. They'll soon get the idea. 

I'm very sorry you have been ill. This is obviously not a good time to have this kind of work. But, they're here now! 

You should always charge for kittens, whether or not they have papers. Do you have their pedigrees? Are they registered, and from good stock? All of those things are important when selling the kittens. However, more important is that you screen the buyers carefully. They should not allow their kittens outdoors without leashes or an enclosure, they should be willing to read and learn if these are their first pets, the home should be _permanent and loving,_ and children should be very gentle with kittens. Their little legs could easily be broken by a wrong step. Find out everything you can about the people who will purchase the kittens. You might want to draw up a contract, stipulating these things, and that if they can't keep the kitten you get the kitten back. That will give you some peace of mind. Of course, these are my opinions; there are many people who allow their cats out. I don't consider it safe.

Here is a link that should be helpful, and we will continue to help, if needed. I hope you are feeling well now, and that all works out well for the kittens, mother cats, and the male. 

http://cats.about.com/cs/kittencare/a/k ... styear.htm


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

The breeder I got Holly from had multiple litters at one time. When the kittens were a little older and wanted to be running around, she handled it by having large kitty condos/cages that she kept the kittens in when they could not be supervised. This would allow the mothers to be free to roam but also keep an eye on their kittens and the mothers would go into the condos to nurse and care for the kittens. There was a litterbox in the condo and beds for the kittens. My first visit the kittens were 6 weeks old...Holly's litter was running around and playing when I got there, when they pooped out...they went (completely on their own) back into their condo to sleep...it was their safe spot. 

This is the type of condo I'm talking about (the kind a lot of shelter use):


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

That would be great for the kittens! Of course, when the mothers are out, the Tomcat would have to have a cage also.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Yes....or if the cages were moved into the main part of the house when the get older, the male could be put in a bedroom.

Holly's breeder kept the kittens in the bedroom until they were 6 weeks and received their first shots. Then she brought the condo downstairs into the dining room...this way the kittens could be out more and could be socialized by the family members and also other people coming into the house. And the females could be more easily integrated back into everyday routine. 

Any possibility of getting the male neutered in the next week or so? Then you wouldn't have to worry about separating everyone, although I believe you do need to allow a few weeks to ensure the male is completely sterile.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

That's good advice!


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## relaxd2 (May 31, 2007)

Thank you very much for all of your concern and advice. It is wonderful. 

I totally agree to be safe rather than sorry. I do not allow my cats outside. It is not safe anymore, with all the diseases, infections and pregnancies.
I will draw up a contract. That was well needed advice. My breeders probably never knew my name. I have always voiced the same concerns, never on paper though. 

The tom has papers, but the mothers do not. I was more concerned with their welfare then arguing to get papers. They claimed they were somewhere, but could not find them. I was advised to put them through some internet registration, but never looked into it. Should I offer the tom's if I do not have the mother's?

I will use my old dog crate until we receive the condos. I never thought of that when I use them for quarantine anyway. 
Can the mother freely get in and out without the kittens falling out, or do you use it as you would a room?

Curiosity, when does the mother's milk come in completely?

Thank you so much, once again.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

You will have to let the mothers in and out of the condos, there are doors in the side. 

Here is the contract I signed when I got Holly that you can use as an example:

* The buyer accepts the responsibility of caring for this kitten and providing properly for its welfare.

* The buyer agrees to follow the breeder's instructions on care, housing, diet, treatment and health.

* The buyer agrees that this kitten will always receive prompt, top-notch medical care, and will never be allowed to harbor parasites.

* The buyer agrees to provide companionship for this kitten, never leaving it alone for long periods of time without human attention. The buyer agrees to provide a generous amount of exercise for this kitten, to provide it with a scratching post and not to cage it.

* The buyer agrees never to allow this kitten outdoors unless leashed and accompanied by a responsible person to supervise its freedom for its health and safety.

* The buyer agrees that this kitten will never be sold, leased or given to another individual, a pet shop, animal shelter, research laboratory or similar facility. If the buyer can no longer keep this kitten, theBreeder will take possession of the kitten without refund to the buyer.

* The buyer agrees never to breed this kitten, and to have it altered prior to reaching 8 months of age. We recommend altering between 6-7 months of age. A certificate of spaying signed by your vet is required to be sent to the Breeder. The Breeder will then send the Buyer the kittens registration papers.

* The buyer agrees never to declaw this kitten, and understands that declawing is a mutilation and a cruelty that is likely to alter the kitten's temperament effect it’s health and endanger it’s life.

* The buyer agrees if any of the above terms are disregarded, that the breeder may reclaim this kitten without a refund of the purchase price. The buyer further agrees that if item 5 is disregarded, that any offspring of this kitten are to be delivered to the breeder as the breeder's sole property, and that the breeder may also reclaim this kitten without refund. The buyer agrees to pay all court costs if this contract is litigated.

* The buyer will maintain reasonable contact with the breeder for the first two years of this kittens life by providing updates on the kittens health, behavior and overall temperament. The breeder will not be responsible for any routine veterinary costs (See Health Guarantee)

* The Buyer must notify the Breeder of change of address, telephone, number or email address.


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## relaxd2 (May 31, 2007)

Goodness, I tried three times to post my thank you, to no avail. Ran into a prob with the younger mother... will post new. I love the contract. It is saved for adoption day. It is fantastic. Thank you.


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