# How do breeder-controlled breeds survive as a breed?



## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

How do breeder-controlled breeds survive as a breed?

I.e. maine coons, himalyians, persians, ragdolls etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong about anything in this post.

From what I gather, it is very hard and sometimes impossible to acquire a purebed cat of such breeds if not from a breeder.

When breeders sell such cats, they are sold on a contract that states spaying/neutering is mandatory.

So other than a few anomalous buyers who may break the contract, no new cats are produced from the breeder-sold cats.

When the breeders retire from breeding, then no new cats from those lines are produced at all.

So then, where do the new cats come from that will maintain the survival of the breed?

Another question perhaps on a different kind of subject: how did breeders end up establishing an oligopoly on fancy breeds of cats? If not for the oligopoly, it would be much easier for everyone to afford them. 

Do you think the breeder-controlled oligopoly on fancy breeds of cats is a good thing or a bad thing, and why so?

If it were possible, would you want breeders to control on oligopoly on all breeds of cats? Why or why not?


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

My understanding of the issue with breeding is that breeders can make several different types of sales.

1) General public sale (pet sale) - This sale is made to vetted members of the general public. Some contingencies are put on these sales.

You are not permitted to show the cat
You must get the cat fixed so you can't breed the cat
2) Breeder Sale - this sale is so a breeder can widen the genetic variability of their line. There are several characteristics of this sale

You can breed the cat
You don't have the right to show the cat
You have the right to show kittens produced by the cat
3) Breeder Sale with show rights - This sale gives the breeder buying the cat can add new blood into their line as well as garner show titles for the that cat, making the kittens worth more.

I hope this makes sense. This is my understanding of the system of how you keep lines from dying out and becoming too inbred while preventing Joe Public from being able to breed these cats indiscriminately.


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## coonconnoisseur (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks for the info, raecarrow.

I too have come across a lot of the same info when researching breeders.

So then, is what you are saying that the survival of the breed is *dependent *upon breeders continually selling some of their cats to other breeders?

If so, does that not leave the survival of the breed in a dubious position? I.e. there may not be other breeders who want to buy cats from a different breeder, in which case the whole line dies out when the breeder who is unable to sell cats to other breeders retires.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

I've not run across this information. It may be best for a breeder to weigh in to get accurate information

I do know that breeders (Good breeders anyway) are very enthusiastic about avoiding inbreeding and constricting their line. If you look at a breeder's website and look at their Kings and Queens, the cats will often have a cattery name before their name (IE Generic Cattery's Show Kitty) and these breeders will often breed these cats with a cat born in their cattery or a cat they got from cattery. Since the good breeders do such a good job of spreding the genes from their line about I don't think that these breeds are in much danger (especially the popular ones).​


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

Cats sold by breeders can be sold pursuant to three types of contracts – a standard pet contract, a breed contract or a show/breed contract. A standard pet contract will require spay/neuter or, quite often, the kitten will be spayed/neutered prior to adoption. When a pet is sold under a breed or show/breed contract, spay/neuter is not required for the simple reason that the kitten is being sold for breeding purposes. Reputable breeders will only sell certain kittens (show/breed quality kittens) under a show/breed contract, and will only sell the kittens to other reputable breeders. In addition, breeders will often keep show/breed quality kittens for future breeding in their own cattery, so that as older cats are retired, they are replaced by the new kittens. The sale of kittens to other breeders under breed contract, along with the retention of kittens by the breeders themselves, explains how the breed is maintained and perpetuated. 

I wouldn’t classify cat breeders as an oligopoly. For example, cat breeding is not akin to wireless providers, where there are only three companies of any consequence in Canada (4 in the U.S.). That said, in the case of certain purebreds cats there might be only a few breeders, which is likely more a function of lack of demand and/or a lack of interest from a breeding perspective, as opposed to typical market fundamentals (such as barriers to entry, minimum efficient scale, market consolidation, etc.). 

I doubt it would be much easier for people to afford purebred cats if we simply had more breeders, and I’m not sure that would be such a good thing in any event. First, as to cost. When I adopted Muffin, a purebred ragdoll, she was spayed, micro-chipped, had undergone various health tests and had all her shots bar rabies (she wasn’t old enough). When I factor in all of the additional vet bills I had to pay for Abby (for spay, microchip, etc.), then I can safely say I paid less for Muffs than for Abby (Abby is not a purebred). Most quality breeders do not breed for profit – they do so for the love of the breed and the animals – and the cost of a purebred typically only covers the costs that the breeder incurs and/or any profit is nominal. Regrettably, that is not true for “backyard breeders”. 

Second, it would seem to me that there are enough purebred cats available for those who wish to go that route, and far too many domestic or mixed-breed cats without homes already. So, I don’t believe finding ways to increase the number of available purebreds is the way to go – not to mention that doing so would, by necessity, dilute the breed itself.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Trust us. The issue of breeds dying out due to anything other than lack of client demand is nonexistent. There is no oligarchy. If someone really wants to be a GOOD cat breeder, he or she would find a mentor, co-own a cat that has been deemed acceptable for breeding, get a breeding license, show that cat, have genetic and other tests run on the cat...
In order to be a good and responsible breeder, it does cost money. Why? Well, to keep breed lines pure BUT reduce the risk of genetic defects that can occur when breeding purebred cats, a lot of money and care are needed. 

Some of the worst excuses that backyard breeders give to excuse their irresponsible breeding is "where do you think your cat came from", "if all cats were neutered, there'd be no more cats", and "normal people should be able to afford _____ breed, so I'll breed my cat and sell the kittens for half the price the 'uppity' breeders do." 

I plan to eventually, sometime in my life, adopt a purebred Siamese or Ragdoll, because I have a lot of love for some examples of those breeds that I have met, and if I can't find one at a rescue/through Petfinder, I will go to a breeder. However, I will only want to go to a very good breeder, and I understand that it will be pricey. I think that educated, responsible pet owners only want the knowledgeable, reputable breeders that put all that time and care and money into their cats. If there were someone advertising that they are selling purebred Siamese kittens for $200, I would assume that they didn't run the necessary tests or show their queen, and that they were a backyard breeder. I would not buy a kitten from them, no matter how cheap.

Edited to add: There are enough purebred cats at rescues, too--not to mention the millions of wonderful mixed breed cats at shelters. No need to make it easier for just ANYONE to breed.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

_I beg to differ re purebred cats in shelters. There was not one Siamese in any rescue in the Pittsburgh Metropolitan area when Precious died. I was determined to rescue, so Stephie, a member and mod, suggested the Siamese Rescue. That's where I got Nina, the Balinese (long haired Siamese) in my avatar. _

_I believe that many cat breeders raise their price to ridiculous amounts to prevent rivalry. I found that in dogs too. My last collie had died, and having been a member of the Collie Club for years, (and having shown my Collies) I was able to discover which member had puppies. She refused to sell one to me, and the price she asked was astronomical, in comparison to the price friends I had in the Club were charging. And when she discovered that I was a member of the Collie Club and a former breeder, she didn't want the competition. I assured her I had no interest in breeding any more, but that meant nothing. She didn't want to sell me a pup. I had a good reputation, but that also meant nothing. I hadn't bred either of my females for years, and had no intention of breeding. She didn't want to take the chance.  She was "in it" for the money. _

_I gave up and knew that one of the members would eventually have a litter and contact me. Shortly afterwards, my son met someone in an apartment in Pittsburgh who had a Collie. She realized the dog needed space, and my son bought it for me for my birthday. That was Beethoven, which some of the members might remember. _


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Ah, I probably think there are lots of Siamese in rescue because apparently a branch of The Siamese Rescue is in Indianapolis, where I live. So lots of purebred Siamese come up in my local Petfinder search.


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

As far as purebred cats in rescues/shelters, I recently was asked to foster a pregnant Bengal momma. Unfortunately, I only have a tiny bathroom as a spare room to keep her in and my landlady didn't go for the idea of having a third cat in the house -mope-. I want to Bengal foster when I get my own house.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Another arrangement that registered breeders use is in lieu of a stud fee, owner of stud will ask for "pick of the litter" or "a kitten back". Breeders widen their gene pool by either providing a stud service, or by sending their queen out to be serviced---sometimes to another state or country. This avoids the problem of close inbreeding, e.g. mother/son, brother/sister. Cats don't fare as well being closely inbred as some other animals. A certain amount of _linebreeding_ is desirable as it does fix certain characteristics. I've found a cat bred back to a grandparent often works best, not too close, but enough to keep the "look" one's striving for. Complete outcrosses are often a real mixed bag---you really never know what you're going to get. 

As others have already said breeding cats should have no genetic or confirmation flaws, have outstanding temperaments especially. The _majority_ of kittens produced are pet quality, and you get a few good breeders and good show quality kittens to keep it interesting and to motivate one to keep on trying for the perfect specimen. So breeding cats with terrific personalities and temperament, and a healthy sound cat are the top priorities of a responsible breeder. A pet quality kitten is not less in the eyes of a pet owner. When a breeder evaluates a litter of kitens, a breeder looks with a very critical eye, and perhaps the eyes themselves are not large enough, or the ears are a tad too upright or not set correctly on the head, or the body is a bit too long. But when you do breed a perfect specimen and have judges comment on its quality and you get 1st place ribbon or best in show, it is a wonderful feeling of accomplishment.


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## mimitabby (Apr 20, 2010)

Just because the day you went to a shelter looking for a Siamese and there wasn't one doesn't mean there never are. YOu have to be patient. and as for setting prices, I daresay they are setting as high a price as the market will bear. If no one buys their kittens, I promise they will lower their prices.
Jeanie, sounds to me like you were better off not buying a dog from THAT breeder!!!


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Siamese Rescue is much better than calling for months, I assure you! I watched PetFinder for months, and called individual shelters. I am not still looking...NO Siamese! At Siamese Rescue, each cat is fostered, spayed, neutered, loved, is current on vaccines, and is delivered. I got Nina from Virginia. I am not inexperienced. 

I have bred Siamese cats, and I assure you that raising kittens is almost no problem at all. Bengal breeders charging $1500 and more is inexcusable. They WANT a scarcity of the breed to keep the price up. Shame on them! A breeder should care about health, disposition, and conformation, not money. It's not a vocation; it's a hobby and motivated by a love of the breed. That is, it _should be! _

Raising Collie pups is a very difficult, though enjoyable hobby. It is not a big money maker. I always bred to a champion, and my dam had champion blood lines, and always came home from the shows a winner. The pups did not cost $1500. I'm a real cat person, believe me, but those who justify that sort of cost are gouging the public. They are in it for the money.  They are no better than the puppy mills who sell their pups through pet shops.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree- $1500 is crazy!

ETA: Our friends do volunteer transport for Siamese Rescue because so many of the foster homes are in Indiana. It's a great program!


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## raecarrow (Oct 27, 2009)

$1500 is up there as far as pet Bengals go. I've seen some places selling them for around $1000. If I ever buy another Bengal it will be a melanistic Bengal which means it is all black but there is a pattern in the black. The Black Bengal Cat 

Other than that, I think I will rescue in the future now that I am familiar with the breed.

I was fortunate. I paid for Teddy's vet bills (neutering and an illness) and the cost to feed him for the 4 months that the breeder kept him after I picked him out.

Leo was given to me because he was 2.5 years old and she was having a hard time finding homes for her grown up kittens. I then paid to get him vetted and fixed.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Breeding for conformity means limiting the gene pool you're playing in. That's never going to be a good thing 







The people breeding cats aren't genetic engineers. They know as much about genetic engineering as I know about rocket science after I took one college Physics Class. How is a HS educated breeder going to breed amyloidosis out of a bloodline?


(insert arrogant elitist know-it-all smiley here)


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

There have been plenty of people that have come to this forum that have convinced me that allowing just anyone who wants to produce kittens is what would destroy the breeds. 

We've had people that say that they're breeders, have a website and say they're taking reservations for kittens. Then come here and ask questions like "how do I know if my cat is pregnant?" along with a variety of other questions that prove that this person is clueless about what they're doing. 

Restricting the "members of the club" is what ensures that breeding and health standards are met. It also ensures that there isn't a flood of kittens contributing to overpopulation issues. There will never be a shortage of people who want to breed and the breeders will let new people in, they're just selective about who those people are.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

Some will. I never worried about competition. I had excellent quality.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

doodlebug said:


> There have been plenty of people that have come to this forum that have convinced me that allowing just anyone who wants to produce kittens is what would destroy the breeds.
> 
> We've had people that say that they're breeders, have a website and say they're taking reservations for kittens. Then come here and ask questions like "how do I know if my cat is pregnant?" along with a variety of other questions that prove that this person is clueless about what they're doing.
> 
> Restricting the "members of the club" is what ensures that breeding and health standards are met. It also ensures that there isn't a flood of kittens contributing to overpopulation issues. There will never be a shortage of people who want to breed and the breeders will let new people in, they're just selective about who those people are.


The people next door who were going to breed Ragdolls didn't realize that Fay's spay had been botched and her 'behavior' was because she was going into heat. They had her for 2 years.

When people breed livestock they have educated help. Pet breeders have 'conventional wisdom' and only social barriers to entry.

Having a 'club' doesn't matter if the members are pseudo-experts. No different than joining the HerbalLife club. They're an example of Dunning Kruger at its finest.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Were these people being mentored at all Dave? I think you're making a big assumption about the knowledge and education of good breeders. I've been pretty impressed by the good ones I've met.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Hey, I remember this discussion. The last time I pointed to the film about the Crups Dog Show in England and what Kennel Clubs have done to dogs. You might remember the German Shepard that had been bred down to have such tiny hips it could barely walk winning as a perfect example of the breed. That blows the validity of mentoring for me.

I might have mentioned the woman on Animal Planet who was breeding "Banditos". A variation of the Sphynx with a smushed in face and altered skull structure. You should have seen the woman who was doing it. I'll stop before I make 'trailer park' references or compare breeders to dim witted Dr Mengeles but she was mentoring someone.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

Yeah, I know. There are definitely breeders out there that are not in it for the health of the cat (or dog)...I don't consider them good breeders. Breeding to emphasize a trait to the extreme is not something I value and I think it can be very dangerous.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

coonconnoisseur said:


> From what I gather, it is very hard and sometimes impossible to acquire a purebed cat of such breeds if not from a breeder.


Well, if you want a purebred cat you'll have to buy it from somewhere. Either from a person that breeds purebreds (a breeders) or from someone who buys purebred cats and sell them (could be a pet shop) or simply from a cat owner that for some reason can't keep his/her purebred cat... and there are shelters.

But bottom line, if you want a purebred cat you're depending one someone producing purebred cats=breeders.



> When breeders sell such cats, they are sold on a contract that states spaying/neutering is mandatory.
> 
> So other than a few anomalous buyers who may break the contract, no new cats are produced from the breeder-sold cats.


Pets are usually sold already spayed/neutered or on "spaying/neutering contracts", yes.

But breeders sell cats to other breeders as well. So breeder-sold cats to continue in breeding programs.



> When the breeders retire from breeding, then no new cats from those lines are produced at all.
> 
> So then, where do the new cats come from that will maintain the survival of the breed?


We breeders have to make sure to keep healthy blood lines alive. We do so by selling cats to other breeders and buyting cats from other breeders.



> Another question perhaps on a different kind of subject: how did breeders end up establishing an oligopoly on fancy breeds of cats? If not for the oligopoly, it would be much easier for everyone to afford them.


The issue on certifying that our cats are purebred are probably the reason as to why cat fancy organisations emerged. The fact that we breeders produce living animals, family members also make us quite picky in who we're going to sell cats to. Especially breeding cats since they can end up in the hands of people only wanting to make money, which usually means that the animals aren't treated quite as well as we'd like. Mass producing of kittens usually lead to kitty mills with cats in small cages, diseases spread easily, there's no time (or interest) in socializing the kittens etc.



> Do you think the breeder-controlled oligopoly on fancy breeds of cats is a good thing or a bad thing, and why so?


I think it's a good thing with breeders who are picky on who to sell cats to.


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

Dave_ph said:


> The people breeding cats aren't genetic engineers. They know as much about genetic engineering as I know about rocket science after I took one college Physics Class. How is a HS educated breeder going to breed amyloidosis out of a bloodline?


Some of us are academically educated.:wink In Sweden most breeders are also very interested in learning. Cat clubs arrange seminars and lectures with vets such as Susan Little or genetic nerds as Lorraine Shelton. We have our own professionals as well (no point name dropping them though). 

There are certifying classes in genetics, feline husbandry and such you can take.

Breeding away a genetic inheritable disease isn't always easy but if it's inherited in a simpel dominant or recessive way and you have a test for it, it's a no brainer. Today we have DNA-tests on PKD1, PRA, GM1, GM2, GSV etc... you don't have to be rocket scientist in order to swab the inside of your cats mouth and send the saliva to be tested in a certified lab. In some ways breeding has become a lot easier.

When you don't have a test for it and the mode of inheritance isn't knowns it's harder but not impossible but there are some simple population genetic rules to follow that will do most of the job (if you follow them).


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## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Interesting topic. 

Personally I think there should be a licensing system for breeders. Someone should have had to go on a course or be properly educated in advanced genetics, and pet care before starting a business.

Sort the wheat from the chaff as it were.

Oh and Dave, you never fail to crack me up. Prince Charlie? LOL


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## Woodsman (Jan 9, 2007)

doodlebug said:


> Yeah, I know. There are definitely breeders out there that are not in it for the health of the cat (or dog)...I don't consider them good breeders. Breeding to emphasize a trait to the extreme is not something I value and I think it can be very dangerous.



My cat Gypsy, we think based on the little information we have, came from a backyard breeder situation. She was pregnant and on death row when she was saved by a rescue organization.

Here is here pic from the shelter:











Here is her pic after about 6 months in our home:












She had to have all her remaining teeth pulled because they were rotting in her mouth and you can see the curled ear from a hematoma. It’s hard to tell from the picture but she was skin and bone when we got her. You can also tell her coloring improved too. Unregulated back yard breeders are an absolute horror. There is no need to encourage more breeders. It should be a passion, not a business. If a pure bred cat is too expensive then there are more than enough shelter cats to go around.

I hope I stayed on topic, I didn’t read through all the posts. This topic tends to make by blood boil.:cussing


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

I have a question about Papers. Both of my cats are purebred and come from the same reputable breeder. In both cases I received their papers after I provided proof of spay/neuter. At this point what good are the papers? It's not like my guys can extend their line. And if I had bred them prior to getting the papers I would not have been able to verify their 'purebredidness'. Do people buy purebred cats, at purebred prices without papers? I saw the papers before I bought. I just couldn't take possession until after spay/neuter.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

To me the papers are worthless, the only purpose I could see for them would be if you wanted to sell the cat or participate in pet class type shows. I don't even have Holly's papers...I lost the spay certificate from the vet and didn't bother to get another copy. The breeder never pressured me because she saw a photo of Holly right after her surgery...laying in the window hammock with her shaved belly up with the incision very visible.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

I have Cinderella's papers, but since she was fixed, they weren't really worth anything. But it does list her parents' names, and someone here was able to find pictures of both of them from an Internet search and send them to me, which was so thoughtful.


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## Jeanie (Jun 18, 2003)

That's so nice. I know how much Cinderella meant (and still means) to you.


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Sol said:


> Some of us are academically educated.:wink In Sweden most breeders are also very interested in learning.


We've already been over some differences between the US and Sweden 

Christine O'Donnel is my image of the average "US of America" cat breeder. Because there are limited barriers to entry, none of which are academic credentials, I can't imagine breeders being qualified to essentially play god. 

Yes, I have some PETA-ish characteristics. I wasn't kidding when I snuck in the Dr Mengele reference.


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## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Hey what happened to His Royal Highness? He's just disappeared!


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

kwarendorf said:


> I have a question about Papers. Both of my cats are purebred and come from the same reputable breeder. In both cases I received their papers after I provided proof of spay/neuter. At this point what good are the papers? It's not like my guys can extend their line. And if I had bred them prior to getting the papers I would not have been able to verify their 'purebredidness'. Do people buy purebred cats, at purebred prices without papers? I saw the papers before I bought. I just couldn't take possession until after spay/neuter.


The papers are only there to certify that you actuarally have bought a purebred cat. A neuter/spay may also be shown if the owner is interested in that. But that's all the papers are worth. Of course a pedigree also gives you the opportunity to do some health research but few pet owners ever do that.

And yes, people do buy cats without papers for purebred prices. Many are also fooled into believing that non-purebred are purebred. It's easy for a BYB to simply state that the papers are unnecessary, just cost extra money and makes the cats more expensive. The BYB is actuarally doing the buyer a favour by not getting the "costly" papers...:roll:


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

The registration papers aren't worthless. Some pet owners love to show their cat(s) in the "Premiership" classes of cat shows, which are just for purebred neuters and spays. To enter a cat show you need to put the registration number on the entry form, as well as the sire and dam. I sold quite a number of cats to people who loved to show, but weren't interested in breeding, but liked the excitement, the competition and the camaraderie, and proudly displayed their ribbons. Most cat shows also have a "Household Pet" class, and no registration papers are needed. Some people get bit by the bug of showing by this class and then advance with a purebred breed.


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Huge said:


> Hey what happened to His Royal Highness? He's just disappeared!


I think he was too inbred. Maybe his picture was scaring our younger members. Although, it is almost Halloween..


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

QUOTE=doodlebug;701520]Were these people being mentored at all Dave?.[/QUOTE]

That's where the story gets tricky and I'm only getting one side of it.

The relationship broke down but it can't have been very close or lengthy because the woman I got Fay from had never been to the home of the breeder she got Fay and her sister Abby from. (English majors may substitute 'the woman from whom she got Fay and Abby'). She picked up Fay at a randevous point supposedly between here and Orlando.

The neighbor who rehomed Fay to me refers to the breeder simply as "That Woman". When I was after Fay's medical records, including even rabbies vaccines, she couldn't find them and said she had lost the Mentor's contact info. 

The breakdown came over part of the deal that would have had Fay's breeder mate one of her cats to one of my neighbors cats. Before she gave Fay to me she had 3 cats. I'm assuming Fay's sister Abby would have been the Queen in that mating. 

As part of this complex deal Fay, supposedly a retired champion show cat, arrived with her spay stitches in. I don't know if the out of town breeder should have let her go in that condition.

My neighbors had Fay for 2 years and wanted to dump her for 'behavior problems', the wife started letting Fay outside because the husband wanted to send her to a shelter despites his complaints about "how much he paid for that cat" .

Fay had been pooping, spray and howling in the house. They though she wasn't mixing well with their other cat "Bear". Her real problem was being in heat.

When I adopted Fay she never spayed but she did poop on the bed once. When she started howling I thought recognized the sound though I'd only heard it once before. When she started pulling herself across the floor and thrusting her butt up in the air in front of me I was really suspicious. Finally, when Fay had her way with my leg paying special attention to the bump of my knee and the curve of my ankle while I was lying.....lieing....prone in bed I was sure I knew what she was up to. You should have seen the intensity on her face as she worked it and then the purr and the look on her face when she finished. She did everything but smoke a cigarette. 
Then the Tomcats arrived outside the house. The Toms have the final word in identifying cats in heat.
My Vet wouldn't believe me on the phone when I told her Fay was in heat. I had to wait for her to cycle up again and bring her in. Confirmed. Fay had remaining uterin tissue that was causing her to go into heat. 
My neighbors may have been thown off by the presence of the stiches and spay scar. It caused my Vet to doubt me at first. 
Obviously I don't have much respect for Fay's original breeder because she rushed the spay. I suspect whe went to a shelter and had her done in a conveyor line appraoch rather thah having her done by a careful Vet.
My Vet tells me missed tissue happens but not often.
I don't think much of my neighbor as a breeder because she couldn't spot a cat in heat....for 2 years.
My overall opinion of breeders from this experience as well as seeoig the woman breeding "Banditos", the woman breeding "rug hugger Munchkins", and what the kennel clubs did to the dogs at the Crops Dog Show isn't good. I'm gonna go with Trailer Park Mengeles rill I see something different. 

Good luck reading that. I was going to drop a short note as my Ambien kicked in. I typed too long ZZZZzzzzzzzz


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## Dave_ph (Jul 7, 2009)

Huge said:


> Hey what happened to His Royal Highness? He's just disappeared!


 
He probably stepped out with Camilla.


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## Huge2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Hahaha yeah, probably. Although she's not exactly a specimen of perfect breeding herself 


marie73 said:


> I think he was too inbred. Maybe his picture was scaring our younger members. Although, it is almost Halloween..


Good point.


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