# limited ingredient food recommendations?



## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Argh. Little Bee's poo is still soft (actually, sort of half firm, half mushy…and she’s doing up to 3 a day), even after 2 different probiotics and canned pumpkin (not all at the same time  ). 

She's still on Blue Wilderness (duck flavor, 1/4 - 3/8 cup a day) and 3-4 ounces of Wellness grain-free canned (it's been a variety of flavors since the recall, but I try to transition each change gradually). 

Everything I'm giving her has chicken in common, so I'm going to try some chicken-free food for awhile. She doesn't have a lot of allergy symptoms (no sores or hair-pulling), but she does scratch her face and ears more than seems necessary, and I've noticed a little wax. She's been treated for fleas and worms already. I called the vet's office and talked to a tech, and she thought trying a hypoallergenic food sounded like a good place to start, since b doesn't have any really dire symptoms that seem to call for invasive testing or meds that might not help (but could make things worse in the litter box arena).

I've ordered some Natural Balance Limited Ingredient dry (duck) from Amazon, but they couldn't ship the canned NB until April 22, so I'm trying to find some other limited ingredient options. I think EVO, Addiction, Nature're Variety, California Natural and possibly Blue Wilderness's canned (which, annoyingly, I can't get here, even though PetSense carries their dry) are options. Anybody have experiences to share with those in a mild allergy situation? Any other suggestions? 

Thanks, y'all. I can't even imagine how some of you cope with IBS or severe allergies. b has made several messes that have taken me awhile to undo, and she almost always has a little dried "evidence" around her anus. I'll admit I'm mean enough to confine her to the litter box room on days when I don't think I can handle the extra "duty" (I have a 2-year-old who's not yet potty trained. And who knows how to take her diaper off when my head is turned. Enough said.) Poor darling. :?


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Littlebee:
I am sorry to hear what you are going through. I am still new to this forum and learning many things from wonderful people on this forum, so I do not think I can give any advice. But, I just wanted to share the same kind of feeling and situation. 

My recently-adopted cat, Tora, has the same poop situation and it has been about a month. How long does Little Bee have this issue? I tried dewormer(because he had roundworm, now it is negative), antibiotic medicine (the vet thought that he might have some bacteria in his system), plain yogurt, Proviable-KP... still not quite the ideal poop compared to other two cats, and his is exactly the same kind of thing you mentioned. I was thinking about trying grain free diet next but I guess it is not working on Little Bee and I am sorry to hear that. It is frustrating, isn't it? Since Tora may have been a stray cat when we found him, I was confining him. Ever since I found he has the poop issue, he is confined so that he does not share litter box with other two cats. Like you mentioned, it is much easier to handle cleaning and other stuff if he is confined. I am not saying that Tora is confined all day, but he is staying in laundry room with his own litter box when I cannot watch him much, like in the night or when I go out. Having two year old is already handful and then taking care of kitty's mess is too much for you. Keep us posted how Little Bee's poop problem is doing with the new diet using hypoallergenic food. Good luck on potty training as well! It is getting warmer so it is nice to start potty training  I am sorry that I am not help at all but I hope our kitties' toilet issues will be gone sometime


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

So sorry to hear littlebee is still having these issues. Food sensitivities can be rough to figure out. 

I can't remember if you've mentioned this before: have you considered a raw diet at all? Grain-free helps a lot of cats, but since you've already tried that and it doesn't seem to be helping, it may be time to take it to the next level.

My younger kitten, Athena, has the same issues as yours. She is also a siamese mix. I've heard they can have particularly sensitive stomachs, and some searches on google and various forums yielded a lot of other people sharing the same concerns. We tried everything that you have too. Grain-free helped a _little_. The complete removal of kibble helped a decent amount, but ultimately nothing was really working perfectly. She was still having soft pudding poos, and often had it stuck to her, the way you describe.

Finally, with some coaxing from people here, and a lot of reading of articles and books on my own, I decided to try raw. I figured, nothing else had worked, might as well give it a shot.

It was amazing. _Finally_ for the first time ever, Athena started having firm stools. No more gas, no more bloating, no more soft poo sticking to her butt. I guess she has a particularly sensitive stomach, and what she really needed was food that was much less processed than most commercial cat food (even grain-free canned).

It's been many many months now and she has blossomed into a lovely, healthy cat (she'll be a year at the end of June). Her coat has improved, she's filled out nicely (she used to be a scrawny little thing) and she has no more stomach problems. On the rare occasions I'd slip and give her kibble again, or even too much canned, she'd start having issues again. But once back on the raw, she improved rapidly.

I understand some people are uncertain about making the switch to raw. I definitely was at first, so I understand that position. But it was absolutely the best thing I could have done for her, and it may help littlebee too if she's suffering from the same issue. You can read my transition thread here, it may help address any concerns you might have, as I fretted about _everything_ in the process: http://www.catforum.com/forum/62-raw-food-diet/138798-making-switch.html

I admit I am not as perfect about it as some raw feeders here. I don't do the full homemade diet, I feed premade instead. I work an extremely busy job, and felt a little overwhelmed at the prospect of preparing homemade balanced meals. I wasn't confident in my ability to do it right and was concerned about the time, so if that's an issue for you, premade is a totally viable option. If it's low-carb and fresh raw meat, it should hopefully still help Littlebee (unless she's allergic to a particular meat or some kind of vegetable filler used). I've been feeding my cats Primal. It's a raw formula that comes already balanced in frozen nuggets. I find the price is only slightly higher (only $3 more a month for two cats) than the grain-free canned I was feeding before and it's pretty easy to do. I sample out several days' worth of meals into plastic baggies and just stick them in the fridge to thaw. When feeding, I stick them in a bowl of warm water to remove the chill (my cats don't like their food cold) and that's all there is to it.

Anyway, I hope you're able to resolve it, whatever you decide to do. I'm happy to answer any further questions you might have about any of this, and I wish you luck!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Saitenyo, THANK YOU! I think of Athena a lot, actually...almost every time I search the forum for ideas, her past threads come up. 

I couldn't sleep last night, so was on Amazon looking for LI canned options, and the prices were just getting higher and higher. And I thought, well, ****...if I'm going to spend this much, why not go with one of the pre-packaged raw options? So I hopped over to the raw forum to find some reviews/recommendations, and started to realize that, once I get the hang of it, I could actually be spending LESS for a diet that's better for my cats overall. I finally had to make myself go to bed around 1 am :/, but planning to find your transition thread and read it through this morning. You read my mind! 

I'm sure my qualms are the same as those of everyone else who's considering raw and hesitating: mostly, time is scarce around here...I can't afford to spend more time planning the cats' meals than I do the humans'. It seems like there's a bit of a learning curve (for both humans and cats) when starting a home-made raw diet. I already get in trouble with my husband and kids for spending too much time hunched over the computer, researching cat food (b likes it...it's quality lap-time, as far as she's concerned). And, I worry about getting all the ratios right, to ensure the kits are getting what they need every day. We live in a rural Texas town, with only one proper butcher, at a small Mexican market about as far from my house as possible in a town this size, so finding a variety of fresh stuff won't be easy. Something pre-packaged may be just the thing to get us started and (hopefully!!!) clear up b's poo issues while I slowly investigate a home-made menu. 

I really, really hope I can keep kibble in the picture, though...we go out of town for a couple nights at a time occasionally, and our pet sitters (my parents) find my feeding instructions (measured amounts for each beastie) overly complicated already... Sigh.

Okay...off to read your thread! Thanks again...I'll probably be over on the raw forum with a million questions soon!





saitenyo said:


> So sorry to hear littlebee is still having these issues. Food sensitivities can be rough to figure out.
> 
> I can't remember if you've mentioned this before: have you considered a raw diet at all? Grain-free helps a lot of cats, but since you've already tried that and it doesn't seem to be helping, it may be time to take it to the next level.
> 
> ...


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi Spockally! It IS helpful to hear from others dealing with the same frustrations! Thanks for sharing!!

I do think it's worth trying grain-free food for your Tora -- or at least a corn/soy/wheat-free food (most of the premium food makers like Wellness offer an option with higher-quality grains like brown rice). I switched our dogs to a corn/soy/wheat food at the same time that our cats went grain-free (about a month and a half ago). 2 of the dogs regularly had loose stools....but not even once since they've been on this better food. Some of the grain-free cat foods aren't really all that much more expensive than the grocery store brands (Taste of the Wild is one of the cheapest in my area), and you feed less, so it comes close to evening out, cost-wise. And our other cat has shown big-time improvements (we were feeding Purina One before) in her coat and activity levels on grain-free...which is worth a lot. 

Also, I've found that if you e-mail some companies (Natural Balance and Felidae, to name a couple), they'll send you free samples. Whoop!

Oy. I just keep thinking that I'm not being patient enough...but b has been on grain-free for over a month now, with no change at all in the litterbox. It also didn't help that, just as I was transitioning her to the grain-free kibble, she licked off a dose of spot-on flea medication and spent a couple days with a very upset tummy (flat-out diarrhea). So I blamed things on that upset for awhile...but the vet tech didn't think it was likely to be contributing at this point. I can't keep dealing with the mess (even though it's not an every day thing) with a toddler around...and I feel so immensely guilty for keeping her cooped up (plus, I miss her!). I was so relieved this morning to find her heinie and paws were clean, though her morning "contribution" was as icky as ever. She's so happy to be out with us. I hope the Natural Balance kibble will be here tomorrow, so we can give it a go...I'll keep you updated! If it doesn't seem to help within a couple weeks, we're going raw...maybe even sooner, since I can't find a reasonably priced canned limited ingredient food that will ship in time. 

Keep me posted on what you try with Tora, and what works! Did you do the canned plain pumpkin thing? If you're giving him canned food, it's easy to mix in a couple teaspoons to a tablespoon...b never knew it was there. My other cat tried it by itself, even (and she's a picky eater)...so Tora may like it as a side dish with his dry food!  It seemed to help the first time I gave it to b...but after that, it was back to goo. 



spockally said:


> Dear Littlebee:
> I am sorry to hear what you are going through. I am still new to this forum and learning many things from wonderful people on this forum, so I do not think I can give any advice. But, I just wanted to share the same kind of feeling and situation.
> 
> My recently-adopted cat, Tora, has the same poop situation and it has been about a month. How long does Little Bee have this issue? I tried dewormer(because he had roundworm, now it is negative), antibiotic medicine (the vet thought that he might have some bacteria in his system), plain yogurt, Proviable-KP... still not quite the ideal poop compared to other two cats, and his is exactly the same kind of thing you mentioned. I was thinking about trying grain free diet next but I guess it is not working on Little Bee and I am sorry to hear that. It is frustrating, isn't it? Since Tora may have been a stray cat when we found him, I was confining him. Ever since I found he has the poop issue, he is confined so that he does not share litter box with other two cats. Like you mentioned, it is much easier to handle cleaning and other stuff if he is confined. I am not saying that Tora is confined all day, but he is staying in laundry room with his own litter box when I cannot watch him much, like in the night or when I go out. Having two year old is already handful and then taking care of kitty's mess is too much for you. Keep us posted how Little Bee's poop problem is doing with the new diet using hypoallergenic food. Good luck on potty training as well! It is getting warmer so it is nice to start potty training  I am sorry that I am not help at all but I hope our kitties' toilet issues will be gone sometime


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

littlebee said:


> Saitenyo, THANK YOU! I think of Athena a lot, actually...almost every time I search the forum for ideas, her past threads come up.


No problem at all! I can imagine it's been frustrating for you, as I remember how frustrated I was, worrying that Athena was going to be sickly forever. Thankfully there do seem to be resolutions! I'll see if I can tackle some of your specific questions below.



> I couldn't sleep last night, so was on Amazon looking for LI canned options, and the prices were just getting higher and higher. And I thought, well, ****...if I'm going to spend this much, why not go with one of the pre-packaged raw options? So I hopped over to the raw forum to find some reviews/recommendations, and started to realize that, once I get the hang of it, I could actually be spending LESS for a diet that's better for my cats overall.


Yup, and especially with homemade. Ideally I'd love to introduce more homemade into my cats' diets someday, simply because it seems even more natural and is much cheaper than the premade stuff. Obviously that's a bit more complicated of course, which is why I haven't totally gone that route yet.



> I'm sure my qualms are the same as those of everyone else who's considering raw and hesitating: mostly, time is scarce around here...I can't afford to spend more time planning the cats' meals than I do the humans'. It seems like there's a bit of a learning curve (for both humans and cats) when starting a home-made raw diet.


Yeah, I think that's where the premade really helped me. It takes some of the burden of time off my shoulders. If I had more free time to shop around, source organs, measure and portion out proper amounts, do calculations, etc. I'd love to do homemade. It's just not viable for me right now. I'm also in the same boat as you in that I lack local butcher shops or meat markets and don't have much time to run errands far away (whereas the stores that sell premade raw are right down the street!). Feeding the premade has allowed me to get comfortable with raw in general, and see its results, without fretting that I'm doing something wrong. If anything, it's given me more confidence to eventually try homemade someday. I'm already giving them chicken wings once a week now for their teeth. 



> I really, really hope I can keep kibble in the picture, though...we go out of town for a couple nights at a time occasionally, and our pet sitters (my parents) find my feeding instructions (measured amounts for each beastie) overly complicated already... Sigh.


Unfortunately, if Littlebee is like Athena, that may not be an option. We were trying to keep kibble on hand for that very reason but we'd always come home to a very stinky house. And we're talking even after just one kibble meal left for them overnight. Apparently that alone was enough to upset her stomach. I can get away with giving her grain-free canned for a meal if I forget to defrost some raw in the fridge (did that this morning, d'oh) and she seems to react okay, but kibble just does not work for her.

However there is another option that might work for you when you need to leave something simpler for pet sitters, if they can't do raw or canned. I buy freeze-dried raw to leave for overnight trips. I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding it as a regular diet due to the lack of moisture, but it seems to work really well as an occasional emergency "dry" food. So far, when fed only occasionally, it doesn't seem to upset Athena's stomach the way kibble does.

One caveat: it's expensive. Way more so than regular premade raw. I've been feeding Stella and Chewy's (it comes in these dry patties that you can crumble up) and at only _one_ meal a week for both cats, it's an extra $30 a month. I'm trying to find another option for this reason. If you don't go out of town often, then the cost may not be a big deal, but since I'm usually gone overnight once a week, I have to give them a meal of this approx. once a week (depending on whether or not I'm able to get home in time to feed them breakfast) and then the cost starts adding up.

There's another brand called Ziwi Peak that I'm considering switching to, once I use up this bag of Stella. I need to do some calculations to see if the price is better. It takes a more "jerky" style form than the Stella which I like better too, since it seems more like actual dried meat.

There are a few other brands out there too (Nature's Variety makes one I believe) but of course I'm limited to what I can find at my local stores.

But yeah, I am still trying to find a good solution to this problem myself, as so far nothing seems totally ideal. I actually posted a thread a while back asking if anyone knows of other good freeze-dried options, but so far it seems like other people are as stumped as I am.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

I just finished your transition thread...as others have said: SO helpful. I'm glad you documented the process. 

Freeze-dried!!! That could totally solve the "when we leave town" problem! I am absurdly excited now. 

The only specialized pet supply store in town is a PetSense, and it's very limited...only 2 grain-free options (and only Wellness canned) and no raw or limited ingredient. There's a PetSmart about half an hour away, but they don't seem to carry raw, either. We do have a mom/pop natural food store that I can probably get some better quality chicken parts (Wal-Mart is my other option...and I'm just not sure about plopping raw Wal-Mart stuff on plate. We eat it, cooked...but is it good enough for the CATS? ). Maybe I can try some small leg or breast pieces while look for a good pre-made option online. I'm pretty eager to see the litterbox effect, if nothing else...I'm sure you can relate. 

Now I'm itching to get online and start price/ingredient-shopping! Do you still have the spreadsheet you made to compare costs of canned/premade raw? I'd LOVE to see it.

Sadly, I think my employer expects me to get some work done this week...

Thanks again!




saitenyo said:


> No problem at all! I can imagine it's been frustrating for you, as I remember how frustrated I was, worrying that Athena was going to be sickly forever. Thankfully there do seem to be resolutions! I'll see if I can tackle some of your specific questions below.
> 
> Yup, and especially with homemade. Ideally I'd love to introduce more homemade into my cats' diets someday, simply because it seems even more natural and is much cheaper than the premade stuff. Obviously that's a bit more complicated of course, which is why I haven't totally gone that route yet.
> 
> ...


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Littlebee:

I am glad that I can share some frustration with you  I do understand how you feel about "clean paws"! I took "clean paws" for granted with other two cats and then realized it is really important! I check Tora's paws every morning and a couple of times in a day to make sure.... This morning I found some "left-over" on the window sill and then headed for cleaning, yuck! Yesterday, after I picked him up and then let go, I found some "leftover" on my sweater..... I cannot wait to solve this issue... I am sure you will be much busier with your cute little toddler around and you want to make sure the mess will never go to her. It is hard work! I feel for you 
Thank you for suggesting about grain-free diet. Thanks for the tip about coupon as well  I am trying to switch to grain-free for other two cats, so miight as well, maybe Tora also. I am waiting for the vet to call me back and tell me what he suggests. I will keep posted. I heard about pumpkin as well and was going to try it on Tora but the vet said he does not think it will work since pumpkin has too much fiber. 
I feel the same way about "confining." I feel so bad as well. I cannot wait to have him all the time with us once his pop issues are resolved! Ever since I found that he pooped on our floor (luckily, it was hardwood!), I tried to let him go to the laundry room where I keep his litter box as often as possible when he is not cooped in the room. I am getting tired of dealing with this situation: separating his litter box from another one and keeping him in the laundry room occasionally.... poor thing! 
Let us know how Natural Balance kibble works on her when it arrives. I hope it will help her! What Saitenyo suggested makese sense. I did not know that the reason why Athena stared on raw diet was due to stomach problem. I will definitely check out the thread that she suggested as well. Thank you, Saitenyo! I know you helped me in my thread as well where I posted about SD. 
I do hope Littlebee's tummy trouble will be solved soon and keep us poted!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Spockally, I wanted to add another plug for grain-free for Tora: Little Bee had HORRID gas when she was still on Purina One. On Blue Wilderness grain-free + grain-free canned, she's gas-free. Then, I tried a little canned food with some rice in it (I'm trying to convince my older cat to eat canned, so I bought the with-rice food for her to try out (no luck), and gave just a little (maybe a tablespoon) to b to see if I could get away with it in small amounts, rather than just throwing it all away). The gas was back today (though the poos don't seem any worse than usual). So if stinky toots are part of Tora's problem, a grain-free food may help with that at least!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Oh, gosh...poor Tora, and poor you!!! Checking for poo everywhere gets old REALLY fast...and there's not much worse than finding it in random spots in your house...or ON you. Ugh. 

I hope your vet will have some good suggestions, too...I'll be interested to hear. I once read a vet's blog, where he recommend a hairball formula food for chronic soft stools, because of the extra fiber. But finding the right fiber balance can be tricky...especially if the stomach is already upset.

Saitenyo's pretty much got me convinced, though I'm still going to give the NB dry a chance, since it's on its way, and it'll take me awhile to find a raw. Sabine, our other cat, is doing so well on grain-free dry (and a tiny bit of canned...there's only one kind she'll eat) that I can let her finish the bag if b needs to be switched to raw full time to get the stools up to par... I'll keep you posted! 



spockally said:


> Dear Littlebee:
> 
> I am glad that I can share some frustration with you  I do understand how you feel about "clean paws"! I took "clean paws" for granted with other two cats and then realized it is really important! I check Tora's paws every morning and a couple of times in a day to make sure.... This morning I found some "left-over" on the window sill and then headed for cleaning, yuck! Yesterday, after I picked him up and then let go, I found some "leftover" on my sweater..... I cannot wait to solve this issue... I am sure you will be much busier with your cute little toddler around and you want to make sure the mess will never go to her. It is hard work! I feel for you
> Thank you for suggesting about grain-free diet. Thanks for the tip about coupon as well  I am trying to switch to grain-free for other two cats, so miight as well, maybe Tora also. I am waiting for the vet to call me back and tell me what he suggests. I will keep posted. I heard about pumpkin as well and was going to try it on Tora but the vet said he does not think it will work since pumpkin has too much fiber.
> ...


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Yup, Spockally, Athena used to have awful gas and really smelly poos too. Like...room-clearing smell. Even though the grain-free canned didn't completely fix her stools, it did really help with the gas problems. Her stomach used to be horribly bloated all the time and taking out grain and kibble seemed to help with that a lot.

And yup, I do still have a cost comparison spreadsheet. This is my most recent one: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...3lTUmNCMWVMbXlXckQ5R2c&hl=en&authkey=CO3y4bYI

It focuses mostly on raw, since that's what I feed these days for the most part, but I did a comparison to a canned-only diet too.

It's not really tidied up for other people, mostly just for my own use, so I can explain anything that might be confusing. All of these are local prices of course so it might vary depending on where you look. Love's is the pet store I get most of my raw at. Anywhere you see "NV" that stands for Nature's Variety, which I've been feeding for some additional variety, but hope to drop out soon since I like the Primal better (and the Primal is slightly cheaper). I've been working on my local store to order Primal Rabbit and I think they're finally caving. XD The canned prices there are from PetCo. I actually just found a local store that carries Merrick for cheaper though. I haven't updated the spreadsheet to reflect that. Only Natural is a store that sells raw online. I was just curious how much more expensive it'd be to order it (since I was considering ordering the flavors I can't get locally).

The plan in yellow at the bottom is what I'm currently doing. As you can see it's mostly Primal, with some NV Rabbit (until I can get Primal Rabbit), and one canned meal of quail in there too since I can't find quail anywhere locally in any raw form. 

For analysis purposes, I filled out Sunday's breakfast meal as a canned meal, since trying to find a way to do that would be my ideal (Sunday mornings are usually the meal I have to miss). Currently that meal is actually made up of the Stella and Chewy's, and you can see below the yellow box how dramatically the price goes up when that one canned breakfast is replaced by the freeze-dried. Also, on weekends where I am home all weekend, I just give them raw for that meal instead of canned or freeze dried. 

So this plan isn't totally hard and fast, just a general estimate. Sometimes the cats will beg for more food and I concede because I'm still unclear as to how much they should be eating. When I give them 2 oz per meal they act hungry. When I give them 3, they often don't finish it...2.5 seems to hit the mark most of the time but sometimes they still beg for more food,and neither is getting fat so I just give them an extra tidbit of canned when they still seem hungry. 

The calculations up there also don't currently include estimates for locally-bought homemade, because I can't find enough stuff to get estimates on them, and the chicken wings I feed are such a negligible cost that I just didn't bother figuring it out.

The monthly total is on the far right, on the other side of the menu listings (which I jotted down to help me figure out how much I was feeding of each per week). Keep in mind that monthly total is for 2 cats, not 1.


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Oh and the "Local Mixes" are basically just Primal from the aforementioned local store, Nature's Variety from another local store, and Merrick from PetCo. Sadly I can't get everything at just Love's. Although if I can get them to carry Primal Rabbit and get my canned at the local store that I was getting the NV from, I can narrow it down to only 2 stores (plus regular grocery store for chicken wings).


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Saitenyo, I love you! I have done a million price/oz. and price/feeding calculations on a million different foods...but only had the sense to jot down a couple (and then keep misplacing the piece of paper). This is awesome!!! 

I'm so excited (especially since poo #2 today was a real stinker). I'm hoping to place an order for one or two varieties of premade raw tonight. I should probably pick up a couple more cans of Wellness, so I'll have plenty to transition with. It seemed like you were able to transition fairly quickly with Athena (unless it was too cold...poor girl!). How many days did you mix it with canned before you offered it on its own?


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

On an unrelated note...my 2-year-old (always looking over my shoulder as I'm typing), saw Athena and Apollo on your signature and said, "Look! Der Wi Bee!" (there's Little Bee!). Cute kid. Cute cats!


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## suwanee (Jan 22, 2011)

Cool, seems there is help for littlebee. And a use for all the spreadsheets! Yay, saitenyo.

One thing I've been doing is weigh my cats once a week and I'm tracking it. Since I switched to grain free (canned and kibble) my big cat has lost 1.4 lbs. I was worried he was losing too fast, so I thought I should track it. He was a bit overweight anyway, and the other cat has maintained beautifully.

In doing research, I've found that cats will naturally eat more on some days, and less on others. So I decided weighing them was better than weighing the food. I just eye-ball the food now.


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Happy I could help! 



littlebee said:


> I'm so excited (especially since poo #2 today was a real stinker). I'm hoping to place an order for one or two varieties of premade raw tonight. I should probably pick up a couple more cans of Wellness, so I'll have plenty to transition with. It seemed like you were able to transition fairly quickly with Athena (unless it was too cold...poor girl!). How many days did you mix it with canned before you offered it on its own?


I think it's not a bad idea to keep some canned on hand anyway, in case you forget to defrost a meal like I did this morning, or a cat is being picky (sometimes mixing some canned in will encourage them to eat on a finicky day). I keep a nice helping of "emergency canned" stacked in my cupboard even though I usually only give one canned meal a week.

And as for how long it'll take, it varies depending on the cat. Athena did take to raw very quickly, I wonder maybe because it was the first time she probably felt really good after eating? Or maybe she's just not super picky.I think I only mixed canned in her food for about a week. 

Apollo on the other hand was much slower. He's my picky eater. I had to mix canned into his food for several weeks, and still have to on occasion (he loves chicken and always eats that, but he frequently decides he has no interest in turkey or rabbit).



littlebee said:


> On an unrelated note...my 2-year-old (always looking over my shoulder as I'm typing), saw Athena and Apollo on your signature and said, "Look! Der Wi Bee!" (there's Little Bee!). Cute kid. Cute cats!


Haha that's so adorable. And actually last night I was thinking about how similar Athena and Littlebee are, and then realized I frequently call Athena "Little B!" Because her nickname is "Beepo" (it's weird, I know, long story) and we usually call her that more than Athena...so she has all these nicknames that have evolved from that like "Little Beep" or "Little B."



suwanee said:


> One thing I've been doing is weigh my cats once a week and I'm tracking it. Since I switched to grain free (canned and kibble) my big cat has lost 1.4 lbs. I was worried he was losing too fast, so I thought I should track it. He was a bit overweight anyway, and the other cat has maintained beautifully.
> 
> In doing research, I've found that cats will naturally eat more on some days, and less on others. So I decided weighing them was better than weighing the food. I just eye-ball the food now.


 That's really smart, I should start doing that! I actually bought a scale a few months ago with the intention of regularly weighing both myself and the cats...but only weighed the cats once. Oops! I should start weighing them regularly. Hopefully that'll help me relax a little about their weird eating patterns, because as you say, it seems like they're randomly extra hungry one day and not interested in much food the next.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Littlebee:

Just FYI, here is what I heard from my vet. Although the vet that I spoke to before said no to pumpkin, the vet that I spoke yesterday recommended to give Tora 1tsp of canned pumpkin 2-3 times a day and see how his stool does about a week (or even two.... I do not know if I want to wait this long). If it still does not work, he wants Tora to be on Panacur(fenbendazole) which is oral dewormer and he claims it also has effect like probiotic. I asked the vet about switching his diet to grain free but he was not sure if it will help. He said the cat food that he recommends, Science Diet, has grains..... I was like "so what???" He was more into Hypoallergenic food than grain free diet. Well, I was not sure about giving Tora Panacur. The first stool test came back positive for roundworm in early Feburuary. We treated it with Profender. The second stool sample done in middle of March came back negative for all active parasites but came back positive for antibodies of giardia. I was wondering if it is really necessary to give him Panacur. I want to avoid medication unless it is really needed. So, I called them up again this morning and talked to another vet. She said that it is not really necessary to give him Panacur especially knowing how difficult to medicate Tora, he does not have active parasites and also the antibiotic med that Tora took should have done the job to treat what was going on in his system because of giardia if he had it in the past. She told me that the vet I spoke to just wanted to be overcautious to cover all the possibilities. Well, then she suggested Tora to be on Science Diet Intestinal Diet can/dry food which is available only through vet office. She was not skeptical about grain free diet, neither. If SD does not work, she wants him to try hypoallergenic food.... 

So this is the route to take, it seems. But, imo, I rather try grain free food than SD. She claims it has all nutrition but from what I learned in this forum, I prefer not to give that. If I need to pay that much for SD, I rather spend the amount of money on other better food. I think I want to keep Panacur as the last and least option. when I was searching about Panacur, I found this thread. It sounded similar to Tora. It makes me wonder if Panacur might be beneficial but I try to avoid medication first. I got to go now but I just wanted to update with what I heard. BTW, Tora loves pumpkin! Funny! I will talk to you again 

http://www.catforum.com/forum/38-health-nutrition/69661-kitty-diarrhea-problems.html


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## suwanee (Jan 22, 2011)

Here are a few more helpful links:

Feline Nutrition

http://feline-nutrition.org/features/reading-a-pet-food-ingredient-label

http://feline-nutrition.org/health/ibd-fake-food-and-its-consequences

The last one deals with Inflammatory Bowel Disease. There are many other sites about diet for cats, this one will keep you busy for days.


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

Spockally: Unfortunately a lot of vets can be _very_ pushy about Science Diet. I've had several vets-in-training and working vets tell me that their nutrition classes essentially consist of one or more pet food company reps coming to the class and talking about why their food is the best. Even if they provide studies that claim to show that their food is superior to all others (usually studies conducted by, or at least funded by the companies of course) they're essentially just making sales pitches. And if that is what a vet learns in _school_ where they're supposed to be getting factual, unbiased information about their field, then they're likely to assume it's true. 

My friend who is currently studying to become a vet says she swears by SD because she found their presentation "very convincing," yet vets and nutritionists I've spoken to, and read articles by, say that once they started doing additional nutrition research beyond those company-sponsored classes, they concluded that there are many better options out there.

The fact that Science Diet pours money into vet education and vet offices, and allows their food to be sold directly by vet offices, does not help matters either. 

I am not a vet, and I don't want to outright tell you to go against your vet's advice, but personally, seeing as this isn't a life-threatening condition, I'd be more inclined to try a grain-free food before trying a very expensive prescription diet that contains ingredients I don't like, just to treat a food sensitivity. 

It's entirely up to you what to do though. If it _is_ a grain sensitivity, then the SD isn't going to help one bit, considering what they put in it. I personally cannot fathom why they feel they can justify putting so many ingredients that _cause _allergies and stomach upset in a food that supposedly treats those problems.

Here's the ingredients list of the adult dry sensitive stomach food:
*Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal*, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Pork Meal, Dried Egg Product, *Whole Grain Corn*, Chicken Liver Flavor, Oat Fiber, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Iodized Salt, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Citric Acid (a preservative), Phosphoric Acid, Beta Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

The bolded red ingredients are common causes of stomach irritation and allergies (and other health issues) in cats. The fact that they are the _first two_ ingredients in a food intended to treat these problems seems absurd. 

The pink ingredients are ingredients that may be fine, but I'd personally avoid when trying to narrow down a food sensitivity. Oats don't spike blood sugar the way corn does, but depending on how sensitive the cat is to grains and how refined this "oat fiber" is, it could be difficult for them to digest. And any unnamed "flavor" or "animal product" is a concern because you have no idea what that actually is or what animal it comes from or what the circumstances of its handling was. If a cat is allergic to, say, beef, you have no way of knowing if that flavor or fat is beef fat. Even if it says "chicken liver flavor" all that means is it's supposedly flavored to taste like chicken liver. It could have been created in a lab, or made of another animal, or made of vegetables for all we know.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Suwanee:
Thanks for sending the links. I read the articles on the bottom two. It is very interesting to know all the facts, especially about SD again..... I have a question for you, though. You mentioned that your kitty lost weight after you switched the diet to grain-free. Is grain-free diet meant to decrease the weight? My cat lost weight due to her teeth problems (gingivitis and loose teeth and she had teeth cleaning and 4 teeth extraction last week - The vet is hoping that it will help for her to eat better and thus gain back weight) and probably having new cat in our house. By changing her diet to grain-free which has better ingredients than the current diet, I thought I can help her to gain back some weight. Am I wrong? I appreciate if you guide me when you have a chance. Thanks a million in advance!


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Saitenyo:
Thank you again for your informative message!!!! I am always amazed how much you know about the cat diet and even some issues with SD.... The more I learn and hear about SD on this forum, the more I am inclined NOT to use SD product. I just cannot believe that they are just busy marketing their products just to sell and thus make profit for company instead of focusing on the health of cats/dogs. I am very sure that there are lots of cat/dog owners in their marketing team, but they do not care??? This kind of attitude really upsets me. But, thanks to you all, I was not fooled by their silly marketing strategy and can have better choice. I, of course, go for grain free diet instead of trying SD as you suggested! Thank you so much again for your time and kindness to provide all the information!


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

To everyone:
My daughter LOVES all the cute kitty cats' pictures and names! Hugs and kisses to all of them from her


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## saitenyo (Nov 28, 2010)

spockally said:


> Dear Suwanee:
> Thanks for sending the links. I read the articles on the bottom two. It is very interesting to know all the facts, especially about SD again..... I have a question for you, though. You mentioned that your kitty lost weight after you switched the diet to grain-free. Is grain-free diet meant to decrease the weight? My cat lost weight due to her teeth problems (gingivitis and loose teeth and she had teeth cleaning and 4 teeth extraction last week - The vet is hoping that it will help for her to eat better and thus gain back weight) and probably having new cat in our house. By changing her diet to grain-free which has better ingredients than the current diet, I thought I can help her to gain back some weight. Am I wrong? I appreciate if you guide me when you have a chance. Thanks a million in advance!


My guess would be that a cat would only lose weight on a grain-free diet if they're overweight already from the excess carbs in foods that contain grain. There's no reason a grain-free diet should cause a cat of healthy or low weight to lose even more weight. It'll just help her build muscle via protein and gain the fat she needs via animal fat rather than glucose-spiking carbs. 



spockally said:


> Dear Saitenyo:
> Thank you again for your informative message!!!! I am always amazed how much you know about the cat diet and even some issues with SD.... The more I learn and hear about SD on this forum, the more I am inclined NOT to use SD product. I just cannot believe that they are just busy marketing their products just to sell and thus make profit for company instead of focusing on the health of cats/dogs. I am very sure that there are lots of cat/dog owners in their marketing team, but they do not care??? This kind of attitude really upsets me. But, thanks to you all, I was not fooled by their silly marketing strategy and can have better choice. I, of course, go for grain free diet instead of trying SD as you suggested! Thank you so much again for your time and kindness to provide all the information!


No problem again! Not too long ago I was pretty clueless about this stuff. I credit joining this forum to talk to more experienced cat owners, as well as discussing topics with my vet (who thankfully does not push SD) and doing a _lot_ of reading.

I don't think it's that they outright don't care...I'm sure most or all pet food companies have people in their employ who do ultimately care about the well-being of cats very much. But pet food is a business, and like any business, making a profit is the primary objective. My guess is, using higher-quality ingredients increases production cost, which means either they'd have to raise their already high prices more (meaning less people would be able to afford, and thus buy, the food), or make a smaller profit. And to the execs and people handling the books, I assume neither of those options look good. It's likely whomever is in charge of making these sorts of decisions has either made keeping up profits their first priority, or doesn't believe grain is that harmful, or something along those lines. 

In summary, I certainly don't think any pet food company is intentionally trying to harm cats, they've just found they can sell lots of pet food to happy customers with the current ingredient line-up, so they probably see no reason to change it. It's just like people food. It's become fairly obvious that eating foods filled with high fructose corn syrup all the time isn't good for us, but companies still put it in a ton of food, because it's cheap, it improves flavor, and most people don't label-check for it or even know that there's anything wrong with it. Not because they want to hurt people, but because no one is complaining or outright directly dropping dead from it.

If the majority of their customers started complaining, or stopped buying the food, chances are they'd make changes, but in order for that to happen, a lot more people have to be made aware of the ideals of cat nutrition, which is a long process.

Even foods with more appealing ingredients are, in a sense, marketing and selling based on the demands of the public. Healthy food becomes more available usually not because businesses suddenly have a change of heart, but because the public becomes more interested in buying healthy foods, so changes to the product are made to meet the new consumer demands.


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## suwanee (Jan 22, 2011)

Spockally, I agree with saitenyo about the grain free food and weight loss. 

They tend to eat a lot more food when given high carbohydrate kibble. I was (I'm sad to say) feeding my cats only kibble before I switched. I've had two cats die in the last five years who were fairly young cats and they both died from Chronic Renal Failure (kidney failure, CRD). It is a long and awful process and I don't wish it on any cat or cat owner.

In trying to figure out what I could do differently to prolong the onset of this insidious disease for which there is no effective cure and not much of a treatment, I started learning about feline nutrition. 

Have you read the thread here and all the stuff in the Raw Food Forum?
http://www.catforum.com/forum/62-raw-food-diet/122080-natural-diet-information-resources.html

I wish I could find for you the link to the loooooooooong thesis written about cat food, the ingredients, and the companies. There was a whole section about SD and I'm not going to try to paraphrase any of it because I'm not in the mood for lawsuits. Let's say it wasn't flattering information. If I find the link I'll send it to you. Saitenyo touched on some of the problems. If I recall correctly, veterinarians also are paid by the company to sell the products. Makes sense, since it is sold right in the vet's office. If you are essentially a salesperson for XYZ, you're not going to tell someone to buy ABC Cat food. You'll notice that if a restaurant sells Coke, you can't buy a Pepsi there? Same thing. They have a strangle hold on the distributors, and you have to sign a contract that you'll only sell Coke/XYZ Cat Food. 

Back to the Carbohydrates. I would way rather live on candy than broccoli, I don't know about you...Candy will give you energy but no nutrients. So eventually you start eating lots more candy because your body is desperately trying to get the nutrients it needs. You never fulfill those needs with the sugars, but you will gain a lot of weight in the meantime. If you drop 1000 calories a day of candy or simple carbs from your food intake and start eating 1000 calories a day of more suitable food instead, you will lose weight. And be healthier and not get diabetes etc. Not to mention feel amazingly better. That's just a couple sodas and two desserts or sugary cereals! Your cat can get its calories from canned grain free food just as easily as kibble. It's all about calories in vs calories used. You can always add goats milk and olive oil and egg to his/her diet for added protein and fat (calories).

Cats are obligate carnivores. They must eat animal protein. And they don't have a thirst response like we do. Unfortunately, eating kibble is what caused my two beloved cats to die of kidney failure. 

I do not like regular vets. They don't have any (very little, like one credit) nutritional training. If you want good information, you're going to have to educate yourself. Go to lots of different places and see what makes sense to you. I am by no means any kind of an expert.


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## suwanee (Jan 22, 2011)

I wanted to add one thing.

It is common for them to lose some weight when they are sick. If the illness resolves they will gain their weight back. I know my cats often lose a pound or two when they are sick enough to need vet care. They have always gained it back once the health problem is resolved. Just feed your cat as much as (s)he wants until he is back up to his previous weight.

My cat that lost 1.4 lbs when I switched was obese to start with and needed to lose the weight. Once he started getting enough nutrients he slimmed down.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Saitenyo and Suwanee:

First, Suwanee, I am very, very sorry to hear about the loss of your loved ones. It must be very hard to go through your loss. Their peace in heaven will be in my prayers tonight. 

Thank you again for answering to my question about losing weight over the grain-free diet. I am relieved to know that it should not happen to my little one, Ally. Both of your explanation makes sense and it is actually what I am looking for: gaining weight and muscle from good source of protein. They love to eat Wellness chicken canned food so far, so it is good start, I hope. I am hoping it is not too late 

About SD... I feel SD in the vet office is like Coke vending machine. I had no idea such a thing going on with this company, Hill's, and the vets, so I jsut believed that there is something magical about this product. No wonder many vets recommend their products, though, with such a marketing strategy. I usually try to follow what the vet says, but when it comes to the nutrition issue like this, I decline to listen to them and choose better food for our cats. I am very fortunate everyone like both of you educated me. Thank you 

Yes, I am very sure that both of you spend lots of time doing research to figure out what is the best diet we can offer for our kitties. I need to read more and more to educate myself. Thank you so much again for giving all the information and I really don't know how I can thank to both of you!!! Have a great evening


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Morning! 

Spockally, I'm hoping to hear that the pumpkin helped Tora a little bit...at least enough for you to be able to take your time deciding what food is best for your feline family. I'm glad he liked it...isn't that funny? Sabine is my picky one, and she ate it straight from the spoon. 

Too bad about the vet pushing SD, but I'm glad to hear that the second one wasn't married to it. It's uncomfortable to feel that you're going against your vet's advice... I think a lot of vets don't have time (or don't make time) in their often frantic schedules to research nutrition...so they're happy to take what SD gives them. I've never even discussed food with my vet, to avoid hearing about SD (it's in his office, too)...and he's a very thorough and thoughtful guy...does his homework on more natural/less invasive treatments for common pet health issues (and always recommends those first) and is mindful of cost. *shrug*

What's funny is that I joined a horse forum that's identical to this one...because of diet issues with my 2 horses. I'd asked my equine vet what I should be feeding my overweight gelding. I'd been reading up and found that the very popular Purina product I was feeding was too carb-heavy (most horses don't need grains, either!), and I was worried. The vet shrugged and told me to just cut down to a couple _handfuls _of the Purina (when 3 lbs or more/day -- a little over a 3-quart scoop -- was the recommended amount, for complete nutrition). Oy. Luckily, there were lots of informed/experienced/intelligent people at the horse forum...just like there are here. 

Little Bee's Natural Balance Limited Ingredient duck/pea dry came last night...I mixed it with her Blue Wilderness, aaaaand she hasn't touched it. Since she usually chows down in the morning like a starved thing, I'm guessing she's not impressed. It does have a very different smell to it (the peas). Luckily, I found a source for the NB venison/pea canned (she's never turned her nose up at anything wet) that will be here tomorrow, so I can just give her that if she outright refuses the dry (maybe better, actually...except for the waste of money. ARGH.). I haven't had time to sit and find my best raw option, so I need her to at least give this limited ingredient regimen a try. 

I've noticed a poo pattern, by the way... Her first stool of the day is usually pretty close to normal (if not ideal). The second (usually in the afternoon) is often not quite right (sometimes half firm, half soft). The last one (usually after her night-time meal) is usually the bad one (sometimes just soft but still formed, sometimes (like last night) something like a cow patty...nice!). Since I feed wet food at night, I'm guessing that the first (best) poo of the day is the wet-food poo. Does that sound right? Sadly, I didn't feed any wet last night (chaos reigned, and it just didn't get done...hello, guilt!). Which makes it all the more ominous that she hasn't tackled that dry this morning.

Last night's earned her some more confinement, poor thing. She had somehow dunked her tail in it...but I think I caught her before she'd run all over the house with it like some kind of fecal banner. I love having baby wipes on hand...they should market them for cats, too...

<head in hands>

How can such a cute, utterly charming kitty be so gross?


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

Hi littlebee,
I sympathize with your struggle. Franklin went through a very similar trial. At about six months old he started with the pudding poop. this continued until he was almost a year and a half old, at which time it morphed into vomiting 3 or 4 times a week. this continued for another six months. We tried everything from antibiotics to dewormers to hypoallergenic diets (hills z/d) and 3 different vets. Nothing worked. Finally he had a biopsy to check for IBD. Bingo! My third, and last, vet is a cat only vet and he had never seen IBD in a cat this young. Franklin started on prednisolone and he hasn't had soft stool or vomited since. It's been nearly a year! 

As for food, for the last year he ate Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea canned ans Royal Canin Gastrointestinal High Energy HE dry. The dry is a prescription diet that is easily digestible and high calorie. He thrived, growing from a low of 5 pounds to his current 8 pounds. Recently his pal Franny, who has no issues but was eating the RC high calorie dry, started to get a little chunky. I have recently switched them to RC Indoor 27. It has about 1/3 the calories, is available at most pet stores annd is cheaper. They do make an OTC dry that is similar to the prescription dry. It is called Royal Canin Special 33.

All of the above is submittedFYI by somone who feels your pain 
Kyle


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks, Kyle...it's amazingly helpful to hear from others who've been through this kind of "mess". I've just started b on the NB duck/pea dry today (with some venison/pea canned on the way...I have to order online, since I live in the east Texas backwoods, where we jump when we hear banjo music). Had to sprinkle a little Fortiflora on it to get her to eat it...but she's warming up to it now, I think.

Sadly, my earlier poo deterioration theory didn't hold up...I didn't feed her any wet food last night, and her first poo of the day today was actually pretty darned normal. (How sad is it that litterbox checks are a much-anticipated ritual around here?? How I long for a life that doesn't seem to revolve around poo.) That makes me worry that it's not diet-related after all, and something else is causing them to go from firm(ish) to soft as the day goes on. 

SIGH. I see a trip to the vet in my near future...

I'm so glad that you got to the bottom of Franklin's problem (no pun intended)...that must have been exhausting for both of you. How bad was the biopsy procedure? Did he have to stay overnight?





kwarendorf said:


> Hi littlebee,
> I sympathize with your struggle. Franklin went through a very similar trial. At about six months old he started with the pudding poop. this continued until he was almost a year and a half old, at which time it morphed into vomiting 3 or 4 times a week. this continued for another six months. We tried everything from antibiotics to dewormers to hypoallergenic diets (hills z/d) and 3 different vets. Nothing worked. Finally he had a biopsy to check for IBD. Bingo! My third, and last, vet is a cat only vet and he had never seen IBD in a cat this young. Franklin started on prednisolone and he hasn't had soft stool or vomited since. It's been nearly a year!
> 
> As for food, for the last year he ate Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea canned ans Royal Canin Gastrointestinal High Energy HE dry. The dry is a prescription diet that is easily digestible and high calorie. He thrived, growing from a low of 5 pounds to his current 8 pounds. Recently his pal Franny, who has no issues but was eating the RC high calorie dry, started to get a little chunky. I have recently switched them to RC Indoor 27. It has about 1/3 the calories, is available at most pet stores annd is cheaper. They do make an OTC dry that is similar to the prescription dry. It is called Royal Canin Special 33.
> ...


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Littlebee:

I am sorry to hear that Littlebee did not like NB limited ingredents dry food...after all the work you did, trying to search, wait and finally get it!!! I do hope the NB canned food will arrive soon and she will like it! I bet she will eat it if she tends to like wet food usually.

Wow! Good observation to recognize poop pattern  Did you make a spreadsheet with attached pitcures on it??? I am just kidding! It is kind of funny that I never paid this much of attention to poop in litter box until we had Tora who has poop issues. Just like when I used to observe my baby's poop in diaper when my kids were newborn, we, mothers, conduct thorough observation and it gross out my husband.... well, we do it because we care, we want them to stay/get well and we do not want to go through the mess again and again  Anyhow, it is good, though, that Littlebee has some good poop! In Tora's case, it is always like "cow patty" (I ALWAYS like the way you describe!),so it is hard to tell if it is pee or poop when I scoop it! Actually, pee clumps harder than his poop.... Well, I thank God at least it is not runny... BTW, by having good poop for the first thing in the morning which you think it is coming from the last night's dinner (wet food), I wonder if it helps her to be switched to only wet food. It seems like being only on wet food is good, according to many people on this forum. Have you ever thought about giving her all wet food? I am thinking about it now.

The comments from Kwarendorf reminds me about my concern for Tora having IBD as well. I wonder if biopsy is the only method to diagnose IBD. Tora does not vomit so I hope he does not have IBD but who knows.... I will keep it in mind if diet change does not help and make sure I will inquire about it. Kwarendorf, thank you for sharing your experience and reminding me about IBD. I am very glad that Franklin is doing great


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Littlebee:
I am sorry to hear that the pattern you thought you figured was not in order and that makes you think something else is causing.... I do understand how you feel about this. I just wish there is something definite that we can figure out what is causing. Kepp us posted, okay....


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

spockally said:


> Dear Littlebee:
> 
> I am sorry to hear that Littlebee did not like NB limited ingredents dry food...after all the work you did, trying to search, wait and finally get it!!! I do hope the NB canned food will arrive soon and she will like it! I bet she will eat it if she tends to like wet food usually.


I put a little Fortiflora on it, and she dove in...whew. So maybe now we can see if it will do any good. Fingers crossed! And I'll let you know, because I think NB's limited ingredient foods are one of the best hypoallergenic options. Can't wait to try the canned...I'm sure she'll like it (and Sabine, who I can't get to eat any wet food but Fancy Feast flaked fish/shrimp, might even give it a go...maybe?? With her constipation issues, and past urinary tract issues...she needs the canned). 



> Wow! Good observation to recognize poop pattern  Did you make a spreadsheet with attached pitcures on it??? I am just kidding! It is kind of funny that I never paid this much of attention to poop in litter box until we had Tora who has poop issues. Just like when I used to observe my baby's poop in diaper when my kids were newborn, we, mothers, conduct thorough observation and it gross out my husband.... well, we do it because we care, we want them to stay/get well and we do not want to go through the mess again and again  Anyhow, it is good, though, that Littlebee has some good poop! In Tora's case, it is always like "cow patty" (I ALWAYS like the way you describe!),so it is hard to tell if it is pee or poop when I scoop it! Actually, pee clumps harder than his poop.... Well, I thank God at least it is not runny... BTW, by having good poop for the first thing in the morning which you think it is coming from the last night's dinner (wet food), I wonder if it helps her to be switched to only wet food. It seems like being only on wet food is good, according to many people on this forum. Have you ever thought about giving her all wet food? I am thinking about it now.


HA! It is insane how much thought mothers can give to poop...but it's hard to ignore when they're still in diapers. Just as it's hard to ignore the cats' when you're the on scooping it every day! Though, I have one auto-scooper (ScoopFree), and I'm still digging around in it to evaluate Little Bee's "leavings". 

My husband claims I always bring up poo when he's eating. Snort.

I just realized that every morning I'm excited, because her poo is something like normal. Then every afternoon I get a sinking feeling, because the 2nd is less pretty (can we call poo "pretty"?). And the evening is usually when I'm cleaning up and locking poor b away for the night, in case it happens again and she's dotting the house with poopy pawprints. It doesn't help that I have just a touch of self-diagnosed OCD....if I'm tired and some kind of mess occurs (especially pet-related), I launch into an obsessive cleaning/fretting routine and have trouble sleeping, imagining what might be "contaminated". *rolling eyes* So her evening messes are all the more glaring...I'm always exhausted at the end of the day, with this little monkey around.

Sadly, she got no wet food last night and today's first poo was better than ever...so I'm not sure now that it's food-related (or at least, it doesn't seem to matter so much if it's wet or dry, in terms of what comes out in the end).

*Have you noticed any improvement today in Tora's poos, with the pumpkin on board?* I really hope so...even if you can get him to the "soft but formed" stage...that's so much less likely to make a mess. And surely feels better? Constant soft stools must irritate their tiny heinies. Poor babies.



> The comments from Kwarendorf reminds me about my concern for Tora having IBD as well. I wonder if biopsy is the only method to diagnose IBD. Tora does not vomit so I hope he does not have IBD but who knows.... I will keep it in mind if diet change does not help and make sure I will inquire about it. Kwarendorf, thank you for sharing your experience and reminding me about IBD. I am very glad that Franklin is doing great


Yes...Kyle...Tora needs more of Franklin's advice!


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

Unfortunately biopsy is the only way to diagnose IBD, which is why i put it off for as long as i could. Fortunately, my new wondervet has a specialist that does the biopsies via endoscopy. IBD is really the no place left to turn route. We'd ruled out food allergies, parasites of all kinds etc. Except for the pudding and vomiting he seems fine, good appetite for the most part and good energy. As for NB dry, my guys won't go near it either and they eat NB canned exclusively. Go figure. If nothing else seems to be working talk to your vet about IBD. One little pill every other day and Franklin healthy and happy


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

So just as I was congratulating myself on a feces-free day (Little Bee's poo #2 was a no-show, and #3 is still pending), I come downstairs from moving a load of laundry to the dryer and find the two year old....her FULL diaper on the floor....and its contents in evidence where it shouldn't be. It's lucky I put her in her play pen before leaving the room, so it was fairly contained, but really, kids. Can't mama have ONE day without cleaning up a smelly mess??? b and this kiddo are great pals...apparently they've been conspiring....

Gross, I know. But also sort of funny. Thought I'd share. My life is a comedy of (stinky) errors.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Dear Littlebee:
The happening in the laundry room IS funny    It actually does not gross me out maybe because I get used to that kind of things as mother and the owner of Tora...I still remember those days when my kids (now 9 and 7) used to be around your child's age, so I feel for you. Nonstop Cleaning, right? Plus, you have b, horses to take care of ... dogs as well? Then, having self diagnosed OCD.... you must be very tired at the end of day. Littlebee and Sabine are fortunate, though, having clean litter box all the time!!! Mine is not that extent but I have some cleaning urge before my period begins. I clean many places thoroughly almost all day and then feel exhausted at the end of day. Well, it is good for our house and us living here but we are the one who always get tired and go to bed still thinking about where to clean, sort of things. I sometimes wonder if I am just paranoid!

So, how is littlebee doing with NB limited ingredients? Does she like it? Have you recieved the canned food for her? Did she try? Does Sabine like it too? When I went to Petco today with kids to see hamster race, the bag of NB reminded me about littlebee! I really hope she likes them and her poop situation is getting better. I wonder how long we need to wait to see the result... a week ? two weeks? Sabine has constipation issues? Phew! You have a lot to take care of. Eack kitty has his/her own issue, I guess. This is true in our three cats. Everytime each one has something, I tell myself "it is okay as long as it does not become serious...." These challenges were given to me because God thinks I can handle, maybe...

This morning, next to Tora's litter box, I saw three dark log looking things. Ohhhh, finally, Tora's poop became normal thanks to pumpkin!!! He did not shoot it right but it is okay for now as long as it looks much much better just like other two kitties' poop, I thought. Well, well, well, when I looked closer, it was just hairballs!!! I say Uggggh to Tora and pumpkin. So far all the help that I can get from giving pumpkin to Tora is that I can tell the vet "yeah, his poop still looks like the pumpkin that I have been giving. Maybe it is just coming out straight!" I am not sure if it is worth to wait few more days. I am waiting for the day to let him try grain free diet. For dry food, though, it will take weeks to be totally grain free because it has to be switched slow....um....I just hope it will show the result quick. 

Thank you, Kyle, for letting us know about how to diagnose IBD. Too bad that taking biopsy is the only way to diagnose IBD. However, it is very important to rule out if nothing is working. I wonder if the pill (steroid?) has to be given every other day forever? Or, until he/she feels better? Once the stool becomes normal and other symptoms subsides, it is okay to stop? I am very happy for Franklin and you that he is doing much better! Have a great weekend to both of you


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## kwarendorf (Oct 12, 2009)

Franklin takes 5mg of prednisolone every other day. It is a steroid and he will take it for life. IBD cannot be cured but it can be well managed.


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## doodlebug (May 13, 2006)

I've been through this will Callie, I fully understand watching the litterbox...it got to the point where I rated every poop on a scale of 1-10. My life revolved around the litterbox. Callie eventually ended up being diagnosed with IBD via biopsy like Franklin. Then when I lost her and got Holly, the diarrhea started with her within days...even my vet was feeling really bad for me. Fortunately by this time I was pretty much a pro and figured out very quickly that Holly was allergic to fish. Anyway....

I just read through this thread and a couple things strike me...

First...has Littlebee ever had a course of flagyl (metronidazole)? If yes...did it help at all? If no...I'd suggest it. It's usually the first course of action for unexplained diarrhea. 

I see Fortiflora mentioned...the first ingredient is "animal digest", which can be any kind of animal (including 4D--dead, dying diseased or disabled prior to slaughter). So if you're trying to use a limited ingredient diet to see if there's an intolerance to a particular protein, adding Fortiflora undoes what you're trying to accomplish because there may be any sort of protein source in it. Prozyme would be a better alternative. But...what I'd really recommend is adding digestive enzymes in addition to the probiotics. Animal Essentials makes a good product. Enzymes make it easier on the digestive system to process the food. In Callie's case, her digestive tract was severely damaged and she was apparently not producing enzymes (or not enough) because her poop became solid after one dose. Not saying that's going to happen here, but enzymes can only help and will never hurt.

I find the pattern of firm poop in the morning and getting progressively worse as the day goes on interesting and I wonder if this can be stress related. While you mention that LB gets along great with your 2 year old, just having a child that age in the house can be stressful for a cat...shrieks, screams, tantrums etc all come out of the blue as far as a cat is concerned. I'm thinking the morning poop may be fine because all is quiet during the night, but as the day goes on the stress level may go up. 

On the topic of dehydrated raw...the Stella & Chewy's patties can be rehydrated to get the necessary moisture in. S&C is coming out with a line of dehydrated just for cats in May. It's on their website now. My rep said her cats like it better than the current version, especially when re-hydrated. Other alternatives are Honest Kitchen Prowl and Grandma Lucy's (although that one has fish). Both of those must be re-hydrated.


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> I've been through this will Callie, I fully understand watching the litterbox...it got to the point where I rated every poop on a scale of 1-10. My life revolved around the litterbox. Callie eventually ended up being diagnosed with IBD via biopsy like Franklin. Then when I lost her and got Holly, the diarrhea started with her within days...even my vet was feeling really bad for me. Fortunately by this time I was pretty much a pro and figured out very quickly that Holly was allergic to fish. Anyway....


It's amazing...the litterbox sort of takes over when things aren't quite right! I'm glad you got Holly sorted quickly. 


> I just read through this thread and a couple things strike me...
> 
> First...has Littlebee ever had a course of flagyl (metronidazole)? If yes...did it help at all? If no...I'd suggest it. It's usually the first course of action for unexplained diarrhea.


No, she hasn't...and I was just thinking of looking it up (I've seen it mentioned in threads describing problems similar to Little Bee's) and calling my vet to ask him about it. She hasn't had full-on diarrhea (except when she licked off her Frontline, the brat)...but just mushy once a day (sometimes just half mushy), so when I called the vet's office last week, the tech I talked to (who is very good) felt like an elimination diet might be a good next step. But we didn't discuss medications...so maybe I need ot call back and ask. I may even take in a stool sample next week....just to double-check for baddies in there. 



> I see Fortiflora mentioned...the first ingredient is "animal digest", which can be any kind of animal (including 4D--dead, dying diseased or disabled prior to slaughter). So if you're trying to use a limited ingredient diet to see if there's an intolerance to a particular protein, adding Fortiflora undoes what you're trying to accomplish because there may be any sort of protein source in it. Prozyme would be a better alternative. But...what I'd really recommend is adding digestive enzymes in addition to the probiotics. Animal Essentials makes a good product. Enzymes make it easier on the digestive system to process the food. In Callie's case, her digestive tract was severely damaged and she was apparently not producing enzymes (or not enough) because her poop became solid after one dose. Not saying that's going to happen here, but enzymes can only help and will never hurt.


Yeah, that animal digest business sounds foul. I ordered the Fortiflora based on its great reviews on Amazon, without really looking at what was in it...and luckily the seller sent me a generous sample of ProBios at the same time...so I tried that instead for about 5 days a couple of weeks ago (with no change in her stools). I did go ahead and try the Fortiflora then, too, since I had it...it didn't seem to help or hurt, so I put it away for a rainy day. I only sprinkled it on her new New Balance food a couple of times to encourage her to give it a chance (apparently animal digest smells delightful. Barf.). She's eating it fine now without the Fortiflora. 

Before I ordered the probiotics, I had been using Prozyme with both cats (I buy it for Sabine, since she's an oldie). No luck there, either, with Little Bee's poo issue. I think it's been great for Sabine, though. 


> I find the pattern of firm poop in the morning and getting progressively worse as the day goes on interesting and I wonder if this can be stress related. While you mention that LB gets along great with your 2 year old, just having a child that age in the house can be stressful for a cat...shrieks, screams, tantrums etc all come out of the blue as far as a cat is concerned. I'm thinking the morning poop may be fine because all is quiet during the night, but as the day goes on the stress level may go up.


That's a really interesting idea... She's one of the more laid-back cats I've ever had...she was relaxed even in the carrier on the way home with me the first day, and settled in seemingly without hesitation, though we then saw her snuggly side emerge as she became more and more comfortable with us. She seems to really like the kids (especially the 2-year-old...they're quite a duo). But they do get loud, particularly so in the evening when the 7-year-old is home from school. So I wonder. She never seems upset by the noise or activity, but I may be missing some behavioral clues. I'll watch her more closely and see if I see any telltale signs.

I wonder if something like Feliway would help, if it were stress-related? I have a similar product in a spray form, but only spray it in her sleeping area when I have to confine her.



> On the topic of dehydrated raw...the Stella & Chewy's patties can be rehydrated to get the necessary moisture in. S&C is coming out with a line of dehydrated just for cats in May. It's on their website now. My rep said her cats like it better than the current version, especially when re-hydrated. Other alternatives are Honest Kitchen Prowl and Grandma Lucy's (although that one has fish). Both of those must be re-hydrated.


Thanks! I still haven't had a chance to price out my raw options, but a dehydrated version will definitely be on my list, since we leave town from time to time. 

So far, we're still transitioning the New Balance LI dry in (3/8 cup NB + 1/8 cup Blue Wilderness), and she had her first taste of NB venison/pea wet last night (just 1 tablespoon, since I think venison is probably totally new to her -- as an aside, it cracks me up to envision 6.5-lb Little Bee tackling a deer). She loved the wet, but her first poo today wasn't as pretty as usual...hopefully just because the venison is so new. We'll just do a tablespoon tonight again (maybe with some Prozyme on top  ), to play it safe.

Her great poo day on Friday (just one! and pretty darned firm!) may have been a fluke, but I have noticed two positive trends so far: less volume (down from 3 to 2) and WAY less smelly (amazingly less). The firmness issue remains...maybe that's just due to being in mid-transition to a new food? 

I hope to be 100% on the new food (1/4 cup dry and 3 oz. wet) by mid-week...and I've got my fingers crossed that the positive trend continues... 

Thanks for taking the time to look through b's thread...it's such a relief to have experienced brains to pick!!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

spockally said:


> Dear Littlebee:
> The happening in the laundry room IS funny    It actually does not gross me out maybe because I get used to that kind of things as mother and the owner of Tora...I still remember those days when my kids (now 9 and 7) used to be around your child's age, so I feel for you. Nonstop Cleaning, right? Plus, you have b, horses to take care of ... dogs as well? Then, having self diagnosed OCD.... you must be very tired at the end of day. Littlebee and Sabine are fortunate, though, having clean litter box all the time!!! Mine is not that extent but I have some cleaning urge before my period begins. I clean many places thoroughly almost all day and then feel exhausted at the end of day. Well, it is good for our house and us living here but we are the one who always get tired and go to bed still thinking about where to clean, sort of things. I sometimes wonder if I am just paranoid!


My oldest is 7, so we've got some the same antics going on, I'll bet. Kids are like walking messes...and, normally, I'm fine with it, honestly. The OCD (if that's really what it is) only flares up if I'm tired, and if the mess in question involves poo. But, as you say...with kids around, I'm usually tired, and with both kids AND pets around...poo is sort of unavoidable, too! (snicker) I'm told we'll miss all this when they're grown... 

I originally blamed some of Little Bee's problem on the kids, actually...they're always dropping goldfish crackers or little bits of cheese from their between-meal snacks on the floor or between the couch cushions. I always think I've caught them all...then find them under the furniture, weeks later when vacuuming... I saw b eat a goldfish cracker at least once, just before I started switching her to grain-free...and thought maybe she was finding strays around the house. But I don't think so now... Your house is probably cleaner than mine, though, so I doubt Tora's finding ancient crackers to eat... 



> So, how is littlebee doing with NB limited ingredients? Does she like it? Have you recieved the canned food for her? Did she try? Does Sabine like it too? When I went to Petco today with kids to see hamster race, the bag of NB reminded me about littlebee! I really hope she likes them and her poop situation is getting better. I wonder how long we need to wait to see the result... a week ? two weeks? Sabine has constipation issues? Phew! You have a lot to take care of. Eack kitty has his/her own issue, I guess. This is true in our three cats. Everytime each one has something, I tell myself "it is okay as long as it does not become serious...." These challenges were given to me because God thinks I can handle, maybe...


So far, so good. They're not firm yet...but she seems to be doing less (2 a day, instead of 3) and the smell is a lot less offensive. So I'm hopeful. I hope to have her completely switched to NB by Wednesday or so, so I'll let you know if things continue to improve. Or not. (pleasepleasepleaseplease!!!)


> This morning, next to Tora's litter box, I saw three dark log looking things. Ohhhh, finally, Tora's poop became normal thanks to pumpkin!!! He did not shoot it right but it is okay for now as long as it looks much much better just like other two kitties' poop, I thought. Well, well, well, when I looked closer, it was just hairballs!!! I say Uggggh to Tora and pumpkin. So far all the help that I can get from giving pumpkin to Tora is that I can tell the vet "yeah, his poop still looks like the pumpkin that I have been giving. Maybe it is just coming out straight!" I am not sure if it is worth to wait few more days. I am waiting for the day to let him try grain free diet. For dry food, though, it will take weeks to be totally grain free because it has to be switched slow....um....I just hope it will show the result quick.


Oh, darn. Well...at least that's one more step down. When do you think you'll start the grain-free transition? Do you know which food you might try? Maybe you'll be able to transition him within a week or so...if it seems to help right away, and he likes it...it could go quickly! I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you!!



> Thank you, Kyle, for letting us know about how to diagnose IBD. Too bad that taking biopsy is the only way to diagnose IBD. However, it is very important to rule out if nothing is working. I wonder if the pill (steroid?) has to be given every other day forever? Or, until he/she feels better? Once the stool becomes normal and other symptoms subsides, it is okay to stop? I am very happy for Franklin and you that he is doing much better! Have a great weekend to both of you


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

<beating head against keyboard>

Maybe don't read this if you're eating breakfast... :/

Little Bee's positive litterbox trend continues: just ONE relatively unsmelly "leaving" for me all day yesterday (though it was one of her half-firm, half-not creations). This morning's looks even better, on the same new/old food ratio. Not perfect (I'd say 75% firm, though), but better (and again, without the smell that usually announces her doings, no matter where you are in the house). So, that's great! Hopefully that's it for the day, and tomorrow's will be 100%. I'll be an optimist for a couple seconds.

But I can't have good news without a touch of bad, as I'm learning: when I opened the laundry room door to feed and check the litterboxes, a big pile of what looked terrifyingly like diarrhea (I almost cried) -- but turned out to be vomit -- met me right at the entrance. Since the door is closest to b's bed and toys, I was afraid it was hers, and that things had taken a turn for the WAY worse in the poo department... But I'd heard Sabine's "my tummy's not happy" yowl earlier (and b spends most of her time on top of the dryer), so I'm 95% certain it was Sabine. And Sabine did vomit some clear, foamy stuff yesterday (something she's done once before, when constipated). So something would seem to be going on with my old lady now.  And I had mixed a little of b's NB into Sabine's bowl yesterday, so that it would smell similar to b's bowl...and b wouldn't be so tempted to 'cheat' as we move toward 100% NB. I really don't think the NB made Sabine sick (she's never been one to puke a new food), but if her tummy was already upset by something else I'm sure it didn't help. And now I've got to keep them confined for the day...I absolutely have to get some work done today, and can't afford to risk more messes. Hello again, guilt!

Since Sabine didn't poo yesterday (missing a day isn't that uncommon for her, but maybe she's just starting), I'll assume she's constipated again, and keep an eye on her. She was purring while I put out a bit of food for her (no more NB...even if b does cheat) and freshened her water, so I don't think she feels awful. But she can't feel great, judging by that mess. I'm so very bummed.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

LittleBee:
Wow! Congrats to you for Little Bee's good poop situation!!!! I am happy for you  Maybe her tummy likes the NB limited ingredient dry food? Or maybe the NB wet food? If her poop situation gets better by changing diet, that is great! We really want to minimize medication, tests and vet visits. 

Now I am sorry to hear about Sabine. I wonder if the new food upset her stomach. One thing is getting better and then another prolbem shows up.... life is tough HOw is she doing now? Does she still vomit? I just hope that Sabine feels better after she went back to her normal diet. 

Last night I was happy to see Tora's better looking poop and had a hope on pumpkin. Then, this morning, I saw a spot of liquidy poop on the floor and the mess in the box  Ok, I had enough of this pumpkin and called for a quit. I started mixing Merrick's Before Grain dry food in the Purina Cat Chow that he has been eating (shame on me about Cat Chow.... I did not know anything about cat's diet until I joined this forum, so I am trying to change their diet to better one with grain free). Hope it works...

Littlebee and Sabine's good health are in my prayers! Keep us posted


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

Darned pumpkin... I hope, with a little Merrick's BG on board, he'll have something better to show you tomorrow morning!

No more puke here today...I think b stole most of the little bit of Blue Wilderness that I gave Sabine this morning (she had more poo than yesterday, but at least it was all pretty normal-looking). So I don't think Sabine ate much today...she barely finished the 1/2 tablespoon of wet food that I offered her tonight. Nor has she had a bowel movement (2nd day in a row), so she's constipated again. Poor thing...she's been dealing with this off and on for several years now. We'll see what's waiting for me in the morning... 

Fingers crossed for both of us!!! 

How do Spock, Ally and Tora like the grain-free so far? I hope they love it, and it agrees with them, so you can get the switch done fairly quickly. (C'mon Tora's tummy...you KNOW you love it!!!)


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

Littlebee:
It has been long since I talked with you. How are you, Littlebee and Sabine doing? I read your another thread about Sabine's picky picky princess attitude  Spock is sometimes like that, so I know how you feel. It is frustrating 

So, how is Littlebee's poop situation going nowadays? Is her production totally normal now? What kind of score can you give to her?  Let me know how things are!
Tora's poop improved a lot lately, finally! I cannot give score 100 yet, but it is significant improvement. Nowadays almost half of it is tootsie roll looking thing which I get used to see in other cats' production. another half is a little soft and does not look like tootsie roll but at least it is formed. I thank to grain free diet. Also, I finally started measuring how much I am giving and realized how much of excess I had given before. No wonder he gained about 1.5 pounds in 4 weeks.... I think he was overeating wrong food. Stupid me.....I took the sample to the vet just to make sure about worms before he shares the same litter box as others.

I thought that my life around the litter box was ending.... then, I guess not. Ally had bad diarrhea today. She has been eating Wellness can food about 2 weeks now and yesterday I let them try NB limited ingredents chicken/green pea and this morning I gave duck/green pea wet food. I wonder if this is the cause.... Since she LOVES any wet food lately, I can simply switch her to wet food only diet, I thought, and I gave her a lot. That is the reason? who knows..... AGHHHHHHHH, don't want spend my life around litter box again  Hope you have good weekend!!!! Keep posted about your life around litter box if you still have any


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

spockally said:


> Littlebee:
> It has been long since I talked with you. How are you, Littlebee and Sabine doing? I read your another thread about Sabine's picky picky princess attitude  Spock is sometimes like that, so I know how you feel. It is frustrating
> 
> So, how is Littlebee's poop situation going nowadays? Is her production totally normal now? What kind of score can you give to her?  Let me know how things are!
> ...



Nooooo!!! Not you, too, Ally! I've always heard you can switch wet foods without transition...but maybe something in the NB food doesn't agree with poor Ally's tummy. Why can't everyone be on the same page???? I hope her tummy settles down quickly. 

So glad to hear that Tora's contributions are better!!! At last! I know that's made things a lot happier at your house (or at least in whatever room the litter box is in). 

That's sort of where I am with Little Bee still... I saw a pretty big improvement when I started her on NB wet and dry (she goes fewer times a day now, and it smells much less offensive, and is mostly firm)...but she still has some softness to one poo every day (like you say, usually just on one end). And, unfortunately, it's sometimes enough to leave a "mark" on her bottom that I have to clean, to avoid little bottom-prints on the furnture. :/ I tried feeding her wet food only for a few days...I've heard several people say that wet food-only stools are better than kibble stools. It seemed to be working on the first 2 days...but the 3rd day was much worse. So we're back to half dry, half wet. I'm going to try some different wet varieties that are limited ingredient (I've ordered some by Nature organics 95% meat), just to see if they make any difference. I still haven't had a chance to look up what raw brands I can buy online, but that will be my next step, I'm sure. But, things are definitely better than they were! 

So you were feeding wet food only to Ally when her loose stool started? I wonder if others have had that problem on wet only, and if they've noticed certain kinds of wet food tend to cause it? b's poo certainly went back to its old ways on the last day we tried wet-only. Today's the first day back on some kibble again, but her poo seems to be improving again so far. I'll hope some of our friends here will chime in.


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

QUOTE: saw a pretty big improvement when I started her on NB wet and dry (she goes fewer times a day now, and it smells much less offensive, and is mostly firm)...but she still has some softness to one poo every day (like you say, usually just on one end). And, unfortunately, it's sometimes enough to leave a "mark" on her bottom that I have to clean, to avoid little bottom-prints on the furnture. :/

I know, I know THAT bottom-prints!!!! When I look at the contribution in the box, ummm... it is not bad, I think. Then, I spy smears on the hardwood floor or "print" on the window ledge.... I cannot stand it 

QUOTE: I tried feeding her wet food only for a few days...I've heard several people say that wet food-only stools are better than kibble stools. It seemed to be working on the first 2 days...but the 3rd day was much worse. So we're back to half dry, half wet. I'm going to try some different wet varieties that are limited ingredient (I've ordered some by Nature organics 95% meat), just to see if they make any difference. 

I thought the same way! I heard that wet food only diet even improves kitties with IBD. I wonder, though, if more moisture in wet food helps to make the stool loose...Too bad that wet food diet was working so well on the first two days for LIttlebee and then failed on the 3rd day  How much of wet and dry food does she eat in a day?

QUOTE: I'm going to try some different wet varieties that are limited ingredient (I've ordered some by Nature organics 95% meat), just to see if they make any difference. I still haven't had a chance to look up what raw brands I can buy online, but that will be my next step, I'm sure. But, things are definitely better than they were! 

I can tell that you are trying soooooo hard to straighten Littlebee's poo situation by doing research about other food options! You are really good mom to her 
I am glad that things are much better than before 


QUOTE: So you were feeding wet food only to Ally when her loose stool started? I wonder if others have had that problem on wet only, and if they've noticed certain kinds of wet food tend to cause it? b's poo certainly went back to its old ways on the last day we tried wet-only. 

Actually, Ally occasionally eats kibbles (Merrick BG) only when she feels like (she barely does, though), but she does not eat much of kibbles lately. She is into wet food  Then, she had really bad diarrhea which she never had that bad one in her entire life. I think it was NB duck/green pea wet food, though. Have you ever let Littlebee try it? Compared to Wellness and NB Chicken/green pea wet food, NB Duck/Green pea was really, really moist. Although the label states the same thing "max. 78% moisture", NB duck/green pea sure looks like much more moiste and almost waterly. She loved it and ate tons of it and fast..... this could be the reason, too, who knows.  Fortunately, her poop looked normal today after I switched back to Wellness. Then, Tora had soft one... AUGHHHHH! Oh, well... he was eating NB chicken/green pea and duck/green pea, so I wonder if they have something with these wet food.... especially DUCK! I gave Tora NB Chicken/green pea today to see how his production is going to be. This is really trial and error investigation to see what or what kind of combination works the best for each kittie  Let's keep our paws crossed!


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## littlebee (Mar 1, 2011)

spockally said:


> QUOTE: saw a pretty big improvement when I started her on NB wet and dry (she goes fewer times a day now, and it smells much less offensive, and is mostly firm)...but she still has some softness to one poo every day (like you say, usually just on one end). And, unfortunately, it's sometimes enough to leave a "mark" on her bottom that I have to clean, to avoid little bottom-prints on the furnture. :/
> 
> I know, I know THAT bottom-prints!!!! When I look at the contribution in the box, ummm... it is not bad, I think. Then, I spy smears on the hardwood floor or "print" on the window ledge.... I cannot stand it


Bleaaaah. And, with kids around, you don't really NEED more cleaning to do, I know! Sigh. I really am weary of checking b's bottom...I can almost tell by looking at her latest poo whether her heinie will need attention...but sometimes I'm surprised. Luckily, the 2-year-old is still in diapers, so I have baby wipes on hand. b usually tolerates it with good humor, but sometimes gets aggravated. I don't blame her...I'm aggravated, too!



> QUOTE: I tried feeding her wet food only for a few days...I've heard several people say that wet food-only stools are better than kibble stools. It seemed to be working on the first 2 days...but the 3rd day was much worse. So we're back to half dry, half wet. I'm going to try some different wet varieties that are limited ingredient (I've ordered some by Nature organics 95% meat), just to see if they make any difference.
> 
> I thought the same way! I heard that wet food only diet even improves kitties with IBD. I wonder, though, if more moisture in wet food helps to make the stool loose...Too bad that wet food diet was working so well on the first two days for LIttlebee and then failed on the 3rd day  How much of wet and dry food does she eat in a day?


I was trying to keep her at half wet, half dry. So she was getting about 3 ounces of wet food, then 1/4 to 3/8 cup dry. But it's strange...her best poos were when I started her on the NB duck/pea dry food. I had stopped feeding her the Wellness wet (because I wanted to take out any chicken, since it was one of my possible allergy suspects). So she was only getting NB dry for several days, and her poo was nearly perfect. Then I re-introduced wet slowly when the NB venison/pea arrived, and her poos got a little softer (not as bad as they were on Blue Wilderness dry/Wellness wet, but still). Then I transitioned to NB venison/pea wet only, thinking that the different digestion rates of dry and wet was the problem, and that didn't go well. So I've re-transitioned to dry only for a few days, just as an experiment...we'll see if they go back to near perfect again (so far, they seem to be better). When the by Nature 95% canned food gets here (I ordered beef and turkey), we'll see if things get better or worse with that on the menu. 

I don't want to suggest that wet food is the problem here at all...but I just wonder what's going on. Was venison a bad choice? Or, is it too much pea overall, with the duck/pea dry? I don't think I'm changing things too quickly...I try to transition things in or out slowly, and give each change a week or more past the transition phase to see a difference.

I may post a new thread to see if anyone else has any thoughts about wet foods and loose stools...I know most will tell us how their cats' stools got better on wet-only, but some may have had experiences like this, and figured out how to solve it.



> QUOTE: So you were feeding wet food only to Ally when her loose stool started? I wonder if others have had that problem on wet only, and if they've noticed certain kinds of wet food tend to cause it? b's poo certainly went back to its old ways on the last day we tried wet-only.
> 
> Actually, Ally occasionally eats kibbles (Merrick BG) only when she feels like (she barely does, though), but she does not eat much of kibbles lately. She is into wet food  Then, she had really bad diarrhea which she never had that bad one in her entire life. I think it was NB duck/green pea wet food, though. Have you ever let Littlebee try it? Compared to Wellness and NB Chicken/green pea wet food, NB Duck/Green pea was really, really moist. Although the label states the same thing "max. 78% moisture", NB duck/green pea sure looks like much more moiste and almost waterly. She loved it and ate tons of it and fast..... this could be the reason, too, who knows.  Fortunately, her poop looked normal today after I switched back to Wellness. Then, Tora had soft one... AUGHHHHH! Oh, well... he was eating NB chicken/green pea and duck/green pea, so I wonder if they have something with these wet food.... especially DUCK! I gave Tora NB Chicken/green pea today to see how his production is going to be. This is really trial and error investigation to see what or what kind of combination works the best for each kittie  Let's keep our paws crossed!


I wonder what's happening there. I'm glad Ally's better back on Wellness (and it's GREAT that she's preferring the wet food!)...but I wonder why the NB seemed to cause such a problem?? b was trying the venison/pea NB canned...and she didn't have completely loose stools, but they were softer than on the NB dry only. Both duck and venison are fairly novel meats, so you wouldn't expect cats to be having allergic reactions...but I guess that doesn't mean it will agree with their stomachs. I compared venison/pea GA to a can of Wellness turkey/chicken that I still have, wondering if it has a higher-than-usual fat content (which I know can cause tummy upset), but there were the same. Of course, b had even looser stools with Wellness on board. I just don't know!

Well, I hope the NB chicken/pea agrees with Tora...to avoid any more bottom prints, and so that you won't have to return it (or worse, lose the money)!! Has he used the litter box yet? (Some day, this won't be the highlight of our day.  )

I can't WAIT to figure this out...and I know you feel the same! I spend WAY more time thinking about cat food than I do people food (and sometimes the people here complain about it!  ). Never mind the poo. I'd be really glad not to have to think about poo at all. 

I'm a little nervous, too, because we're going out of town this weekend...just for a few days. I don't want to come home to a house speckled with poo smudges!!!! Hopefully her better-on-dry trend will continue, at least until we get back... :\


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## spockally (Mar 7, 2011)

I am always amazed how much you remember all the changes that you made on littlbee's diet and the result from the change! I read your another thread and all the info in chronogical order... good job!!!! You are super mom to Littlebee and Sabine and they are soooo fortunte having good mommy 

It is very interesting, though, the changes that you make between wet and dry food and the result in the litter box. Her best poop was when she was on NB duck but poop situation seems to be more stayable when she is exclusively on dry food? As one of the poster said, I wonder if her tummy somehow cannot tolerate wet food much..... Can she mainly eat NB duck wet food? I don't think venison was bad choice. Like you said, duck and venison are good hypoallerginic food. I was expecting the same to our kitties, but apparentally our kitties' tummy did not like it  It is hard to find out to get the best result of poop situation..... 

BTW, thank you so much for finding the article about giardia. It was sooooo nice of you to search it for me and Tora and I am touched! As I explained in that thread, I started giving Panacur to Tora although his poop is showing significant improvement. I did not want to take any risk with other two kitties.... After the med is over, if his poop is still no good, then it is really matter of food. Once the med is done, I am thinking about 100% wet food on him just to see how his contribution will look like as you are experimenting on different combination and types. 

I guess I will read upon everything on your another thread to learn more things about wet/dry stuff. Keep us posted there


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