# Total cost breakdown of a Raw recipe!



## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Just wanted to show to people a real recipe and how much it all costs. It took me about an hour and a half to make 7 lbs of food with cleanup, and that's because I had to grind all the bones by hand, not in an electric grinder or a food processor. Anyways, if you were ever curious...

Prices for the supplements are based on prices from VitaminShoppe.com as of a couple of weeks ago.


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## 22Raiynee22 (Aug 13, 2004)

*.*

that's pretty good! i'm paying 0.44 right now for nutro pouches which are 3 ounces(but that's also in canadian dollars) and only because they're on sale, they're regular 0.96, so i stocked up lol. that's great information tho! thankz!


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## OsnobunnieO (Jun 28, 2004)

I'm really interested in raw diets. How long have you been doing this? I take it you and your cats are happy with it? Any problems you've run into?

I'm curious  Thanks!


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

OsnobunnieO said:


> I'm really interested in raw diets. How long have you been doing this? I take it you and your cats are happy with it? Any problems you've run into?
> 
> I'm curious  Thanks!


Well... I've been doing this for a week, ever since I got my guy!  But I've done a lot of research for about a month prior to getting him... books, internet, groups... He also eats it up like there's no tomorrow -- guess it brings out the wild cat in him  I'm pretty confident in what I'm doing... His faeces is also firm and little, which is very good and he's really active too! Whoever said Ragdolls were "calm" cats!? :roll: hehe... Anyways, do as much research as you can, read as much as you can, and make the plunge!


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

This weekend I'm planning on going out and getting my chicken parts and chicken liver. I'm going to blend up the chicken liver and cut up the chicken parts into bite size pieces. I ordered this product for $13 (with shipping) http://www.felinefuture.com/products/ for a months supply. My kitten went nuts for the smell alone..lol. It has everything but the meat in it. So, I'm trying raw for her. It tells you how to do it on that site (no bones in this recipe). I've had her two weeks so I think I'm ready. Just wish the Whole Foods was closer than 30 minutes drive away. Hopefully I get there this weekend!!!!


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

genEus I saw you said you used a hand grinder for the bones. I don't know how you do this!! 

Here's a link that first introduced me to the idea of feeding raw and how good it is for cats. Here's a great site with information and pictorials about making raw food along with helpful links. http://www.catfood.catnutrition.org/ 

Keep in mind some recipes you follow will not use bones and some will. It's important to follow the recipe you have and not combine elements.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Don't let this secret out, but you're overpaying about $13 over the actual cost of it :wink: 

The recipe that was originally posted by FelineFuture that lists all the ingredients in their dry mix can now be found on www.catnutrition.org ... Sorry, didn't mean to burst your bubble, but trust me, they don't know any better than you or I, so save your money, buy those supplements at VitaminShoppe and buy your kitty some toys instead :lol: 

This was my order last month... it should last about a year or more. Also, you don't need to buy some of those supplements. I and others agree that Dulse and Glandular Supplement are unnecessary, so that's even less cost.










Enjoy!


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

I'm just trying it out to see how she likes it. THEN if she does I will invest in a grinder and supplements. I had heard that a hand grinder didn't work. What bones can you grind??


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm also planning to buy the "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" book to learn more about all this. It is a book they use in veterinary schools, so it may be a bit hard to read, but I have no fear... Cost is $120 new, but you can buy it used for under $10 on Amazon.com or Half.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 68-9937757


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

So you're saying the recipe above is the EXACT thing in the feline future? So...if I end up using it...I don't have to use bones!!??? Wouldn't that be cool!


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> I'm just trying it out to see how she likes it. THEN if she does I will invest in a grinder and supplements. I had heard that a hand grinder didn't work. What bones can you grind??


Well, first of all... "likes it or not" is not a measure by any means. Cats LOVE tuna, but everyone knows how bad it is for them. Why is it sometimes difficult to switch a cat over to raw food from commercial? Simple! Pet food companies throw in addictive flavorings into the food so that the pet is hooked on it! Why? Money  It's simple with a kitten... my guy never had a second thought about this food, he'd only eaten dry kibble for about a week before I got him...

Anyhow, a hand grinder works OK, albeit I'm a pretty strong guy and it did take quite a bit of energy to grind through all the bones. I ground all the bones from a chicken leg quarters "family pack." But, you don't really need a grinder. First time I made this, I chopped up the bones with a big knife and then threw them in my blender, a cheap $20 Black & Decker, and it did the job just fine.

Also, really try to find chicken hearts. They contain tons of Taurine, which is an essential amino acid (one that cats cannot manufacture themselves, they must get it from food). Taurine is one of the most important ingredients in a cat's diet. If you can't find chicken hearts, get some Taurine supplement. They say it does the job as the cat's organism doesn't know the difference. I don't know if I fully trust that, but it may be better than no Taurine at all... 

Good luck


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> So you're saying the recipe above is the EXACT thing in the feline future? So...if I end up using it...I don't have to use bones!!??? Wouldn't that be cool!


No, I didn't say that. I have heard from people that have been around cats for longer than I, that FelineFuture used to post that recipe on their site, before they took it down. I don't know if that's exactly what goes in their formula, because judging by the contents of it, it does not contain all the supplements included in that recipe, although it DOES have the essential ones! 

You do need to use bones. Bones provide calcium which is very important. When you feed raw, think of what a cat would eat in the wild and how to reproduce that with what we have today at home. So, a cat would always eat a mouse, a small rodent, or a bird in full, meaning hair, feathers, bones, organs, etc. Bones are important, but if you're afraid to feed bones, as some people are, supplement with a Calcium supplement

Don't be too baffled by the amount of supplementation. If you're feeding raw human grade meat, remember that it is greatly processed for human consumption, meaning a lot (a LOT) of vitamins from the chicken are totally gone after the processing, so they must be recovered in the form of supplements... 

Good book to read is Anitra Frazier's "The new natural cat" ... It'll turn your stomach reading about what ingredients constitute as "by-product," which is so often one of the top ingredients in commercial food.

There's a lot of info, this forum has a lot too, so just do a couple quick searches 

Good luck!


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

I'm just going the feline future route for at least a month because it didn't require a lot of $ upfront like a grinder and bottles of supplements. I'm glad you posted the exact prices though. That's not a huge investment for a year at all! I wasn't sure if my kitten would go as crazy over food as she is. AND she LOVES food! I know my older one is sensitive to chicken and my husband does not want to see rabbit on the counters so that ones out unfortunately...although I could order it already ground online...hmm. 

I thought the electric grinder was absolutely necessary for raw with bones. Am I wrong?? Tell me which grinder you have and where you got it or if you are planning to get an electric grinder genEus.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> I thought the electric grinder was absolutely necessary for raw with bones. Am I wrong?? Tell me which grinder you have and where you got it or if you are planning to get an electric grinder genEus.


I can't tell you if a grinder is absolutely necessary. The way that I ground the food manually or in the blender, the bones were crushed to about the size of a few sugar granules -- so they weren't totally mushy, you could feel the texture. I am not planning to buy an electric grinder any time soon, although I am sure you can find a used one cheap if you look on eBay. I just have a plain old manual grinder, I have no idea from when and where, it's what my parents have had for many years now.

Enjoy


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## drjean (Jan 6, 2004)

Just a caution, the top recipe is not complete or balanced. It is a good place to start, but it is probably quite deficient in calcium as well as other trace minerals that kelp does not provide. (Adding dulse does compensate to a large degree.) The problem is that the meat-to-bone ratio of a roaster chicken is far greater than the cat's natural prey, so the leg bones will not provide enough calcium for that amount of meat. 

Feline Future is a supplement that you add to raw meat; just one step, which is right up my alley! 

Anitra Frazier's book is 14 years old. Her recipes contain a lot of grains, which recent research shows are not good for cats. 

Small Animal Clinical Nutrition will not be particularly helpful; for one thing, it's written by Hill's. They consider carbohydrates to be a perfectly fine source of "energy" in the feline diet. We now know that carbs are a real problem for many, if not most (if not all!) cats. But, if you can get it for $10 (plus a big shipping cost I'm sure because the dang thing weighs about 5 pounds!) go for it! It *is* very interesting; but many of the concepts are already long out of date.

Cheers,
Dr. Jean


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

I posted the wrong dollar amount before. I believe it's $20 with shipping for the small jar, 1 month's supply & then it is $55.50 with shipping for the larger size (U.S. prices).

www.felinefuture.com
The Original Feline Future Instincts TCtm
the ultimate raw meat diet for cats

Cost $US $14.00 
Instincts TC Small size 5oz. / 140g
yields ~ 6lbs / 2.8kg 
approximately 28 meals for an average cat 

Cost $US $47.00
Instincts TC Bulk size 25oz. /700g
yields ~ 30lbs / 14kg 
approximately 140 meals for an average cat 
SPECIAL: Save on bulk product and shipping - order 5 Bulk size jars, and receive 6. 

Sorry for the wrong dollar amount before. I ordered it a couple weeks ago and just haven't gotten around to making it.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

drjean said:


> Just a caution, the top recipe is not complete or balanced. It is a good place to start, but it is probably quite deficient in calcium as well as other trace minerals that kelp does not provide. (Adding dulse does compensate to a large degree.) The problem is that the meat-to-bone ratio of a roaster chicken is far greater than the cat's natural prey, so the leg bones will not provide enough calcium for that amount of meat.
> 
> Feline Future is a supplement that you add to raw meat; just one step, which is right up my alley!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the commentary, Dr. Jean. Do you suppose it's in order to add more calcium to the diet, even _with_ bones? And, what other supplements may be needed in the recipe on catnutrition.org? I thought she was putting in way too many already. Also, if you look at the ingredients of the FelineFuture mix, they have _all_ of the same ingredients as in the recipe - so unless they add them in different ratios, I don't see how they have anything better. I, obviously, don't mean to say anything bad about them, only that their profit margin is humongous, that's all, but if your time's worth more (mine isn't), then by all means, one step is the way to go 

I looked at Anitra Frazier's book again now -- notice how I didn't mention anything about her recipe in my last post, because I don't think it's complete by any means. But I still think it's a great book to lead a person in the right direction. 

She recommends a diet of 60% protein, 20% vegetables, 20% grains, so in her "Vita-Mineral Mix" which you just add to raw meat, she puts 
1.5 cups yeast powder
1/4 cup kelp powder
1 cup lecithin granules
_2 cups wheat bran_, which is probably what Dr. Jean is referring to 'overkill' on grains and 
2 cups of bone meal, calcium lactate, or calcium gluconate.

Only other supplement she recommends is alpha tocopherol (Vit. E) and a vitamin A and D capsule.

On the topic of the Small Animal Clin. Nutrition book... I was wondering - along the same lines, would it be smarter for me to work with a vet who's young or who's old and got his degree in the 70's? I was thinking that on one hand the older vet's knowledge and experience is overpowering, but on the other - is he going to be open minded about current studies and raw food feeding tactics? What do you think?

I was interviewing a few vet clinics in my area yesterday, since I have no one to recommend me one, and one didn't say anything about raw food, i.e when I mentioned it, she just said what doctors recommend (purina brands mostly). In the second clinic I got a sheet with recommended food brands, which included all the top ones that we know -- Innova, Wellness, Felidae,etc.. but also she gave me a sheet which listed human foods that could be given, so I was pleased. However, the last clinic I went to, I spoke to a vet tech, who, when I mentioned raw food, made huge eyes and said "Oh, no, no, no!" ... needless to say I'm not going back there.

Thanks for your advice, Dr. Jean.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> I posted the wrong dollar amount before. I believe it's $20 with shipping for the small jar, 1 month's supply & then it is $55.50 with shipping for the larger size (U.S. prices).


Are you sure it's a month's supply?? It says "28 meals" -- if you're feeding your cat more than once a day, that's only 2 weeks


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

genEus said:


> Doeremi said:
> 
> 
> > I posted the wrong dollar amount before. I believe it's $20 with shipping for the small jar, 1 month's supply & then it is $55.50 with shipping for the larger size (U.S. prices).
> ...


It says on the jar "This entire jar yields: 28 x 100 g (1/2 cup) portions, or ~ 4 weeks of food." I knew that I had found that it was a month's supply somewhere before ordering it as well so I just found it on the jar as well. You use 4 pounds raw meat and 1 cup raw liver if you make the entire jar.


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

As a side note I think it's important that if you choose a recipe to follow that you not make ANY alterations to it. I think the best recipe if you buy your supplements is found at this website which can be found through Dr. Jean's links. http://www.catfood.catnutrition.org/
Section on Home Prepared Diets 3/4 way down http://www.catinfo.org/#Home-Prepared_Diets


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> As a side note I think it's important that if you choose a recipe to follow that you not make ANY alterations to it. I think the best recipe if you buy your supplements is found at this website which can be found through Dr. Jean's links. http://www.catfood.catnutrition.org/
> Section on Home Prepared Diets 3/4 way down http://www.catinfo.org/#Home-Prepared_Diets


Well - if you notice, that is the site that I was referring you to in one of my earlier posts. But, Dr. Jean says that _"... the top recipe is not complete or balanced." _ I'm waiting for Dr. Jean to reply to my last two posts, though, so maybe she will provide more explanation.



> It says on the jar "This entire jar yields: 28 x 100 g (1/2 cup) portions, or ~ 4 weeks of food." I knew that I had found that it was a month's supply somewhere before ordering it as well so I just found it on the jar as well. You use 4 pounds raw meat and 1 cup raw liver if you make the entire jar.


It _may_ be for a grown cat, but my 9 week old kitten eats about two of those portions a day, so I also prepared 4 lbs of chicken, 1lb of chicken heart and 1/2 lb of chicken liver, thinking it'll last at least a month. But, I'll be lucky if it lasts 2 weeks!  But, of course, growing kittens eat much more than grown-ups, so your mileage may vary.


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

Where do you find the hearts? I've been unable to find those except via online companies.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> Where do you find the hearts? I've been unable to find those except via online companies.


It's a pain in the -bleep-! I called dozens of butchers in my area. I found 2 or 3 that said it's possible. In actuality, one had 2 lbs ready for me and hopefully she'll have them again in a month, but I'm still calling places, trying to find hearts... One offered 40lbs of it, which I declined because I don't have that much freezer space. I posted here asking somebody to split the 40lb order with me, but no one replied. But, hearts are essential, for the Taurine, as I had said previously...

Oh, forgot to say -- the bulk of the mix of FelineFuture consists of Psyllium Husks, which is the insoluble fiber... There has been some research done lately and many conclude that constant feeding of Psyllium may be very detrimental to a cat's health because it changes the acidity of the cat's intestines (or something like that) -- if you want, I can give you the article where they say why Psyllium isn't optimal for a cat's nutrition, but things like squash, which also provide fiber, are much better.


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## kim (Jul 20, 2004)

first - 

like drjean said -the clinical animal nutrition book isnt that helpful - discourages against home prepared diets period. i have it, and its a waste. some parts are interesting, but dont expect it to sold your raw feeding questions at all. 

second, i dont think you need to personally follow any of those recipes to the letter - drjean already stated they arent balanced, and personally there is NO variety in them - so that is just as boring as kibble! variety provides more balance in a diet. most of the people here wont be feeding raw the way i feed though, so thats a big step. i find as you feed raw longer, you tend to (as sol mentioned i believe) stop attempting so much supplementation and grow more daring in your choice of meats. and of course, your animal is much more comfy eating it

chicken hearts can be obtained mixed with gizzards in any foodstore near me that i have been in, on the east coast. is it not the same with you? if not - check out a butcher. they can get you almost ANYTHING! i believe beef heart to be better for taurine anyway....


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

kim said:


> first -
> 
> like drjean said -the clinical animal nutrition book isnt that helpful - discourages against home prepared diets period. i have it, and its a waste. some parts are interesting, but dont expect it to sold your raw feeding questions at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks, just saved me some money!  

Right, forgot about those -- usually you can find "Chicken gizzards and hearts" combos ... Eat the gizzards yourself if you wish, or mix them into the food. However, buying them packaged like that is usually more expensive ($1.20/lb here vs. $0.79 for hearts alone) - and will limit the amount of food you can prepare at once, unless you buy enough of those packages to give you a reasonable amount of hearts... But they usually put 2 or 3 in package, which is measly.

Yup, Sol mentioned trouble of oversupplementing, but I think as the cat grows older supplements can be reduced, but what about a growing kitten? Wouldn't the vitamins be important? What's extra in those "Kitten formula" foods, I've always wondered -- is it a marketing gimmick or do they really put more vitamins and supplements, anyone know?


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## kim (Jul 20, 2004)

kitten and puppy foods are most often different in terms of proteins and fat contents. 

there are MANY sources of taurine - beef hearts are much better. raw food when freezing can also lack some natural taurine. why limit yourself for chicken hearts? 

and honestly, the cost for the small amount your feeding (the cat) isnt that big. if you were feeding a gigantic dog like me (100 lbs) it makes more of a differnece - but i fork out the money for the organic grass fed beef hearts in my dogs case. for that good heart, its worth the money. and beef hearts come in 4-5 lb servings  i also have a raw provider that can get me chicken hearts in 1 lb serving sizes if i want them (which i will probably get some of now for the cat to eat whole). the butcher who makes the heart/gizzard mixes should be able to package a special one for you, all my foodstores have been willing to accomodate me (and one will order me all the organic meat i want).there are many raw feeding lists out and about, and many specific groups detailed for each area that help people hook up to suppliers nearby. right in my area, i have 2 coops, i have 2 other providers that are right in my town, and a pet store that sells things just in case i forget and run out of something. 

there are many coops and i am positive there are some near rochester - NY has a very active raw feeding community. need be, i drive 1.5 hrs to pick up the things i need - i got 140 lbs of meat for 144 bucks, which wsa a good price considering i got a lot of lamb, green tripe, and beef (which are much more expensive than chicken and turkey). above all, i really do stress a variety - the problem with all these set recipes is that it leaves you no room to maneuver. i havent fed a kitten, so i defer to someone else on that - but i know many people that HAVE fed kittens raw - and just feed the same as an adult , just a bit more. essentially as much as they can. now would be the time to start your kitten eating bones too, before they are accustomed to soft stuff. 

overall i look at the total cost - the organic, or odd exotic meats i purchase clearly cost a lot more than the boring old chicken i get for 39 cents a lb - but overall i average out at about 1/lb. it does end up being more expensive to raw feed my dog than kibble feed him, for isntance - but the cost is worth it to me. like we said - the more you explore, the more you get comfortable with  

-kim, bowie and frankie (who have whole mackeral waiting for them for dinner!)


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## Sol (Feb 20, 2003)

genEus said:


> kim said:
> 
> 
> > first -
> ...


"Kitten formulas" contain more fat, protein, minerals and vitamins than food for adults BUT every time I've checked, my homemade raw food contains more protein and fat, the proper amount of minerals and vitamins than commercial kitten formulas. I've raised a kitten on my homemade raw food and there's nothing wring with her. The vet stated that she's in perfect health. 

Vitamins aren't really that necessary (I bet Dr. Jean will comment me on this one). Meat and organs contain vitamin A, D, E, C and B. If one remembers to include liver in the diet one won't have to supplement with vitamin A, D or E. At the moment I do supplemt with brewers yeast since my cats love it. They've always had that for treats even when they didn't eat raw food, but I really don't know if it's necessary. 

The only minerals I supplement with are calcium (when I don't feed bones) and iodine. 

Now and then I throw in some fish oil (Omega 3-fatty acids combined with vitamin E) or som flax seed oil.

In the wild the kittens will eat the same food as the adults and if you check the AAFCO recommendations, there are not that many big differences when it comes to nutritional needs between kittens and adults. They basically need the same amount of minerals and kittens need a little bit more vitamin A and D than adults do.


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

I used ground turkey for my chicken sensitive guy and mixed it with the Feline Future (FF) product. I didn't use a liver but next time I'll substitue a cow liver. With the FF product you just need the meat & liver. I just have heard that sometimes beef is hard on cats digestion & have avoided it thus far but it's worth a try. FF recommended cow liver as a substitue rather than cod liver oil which I learned about on another forum. The cod liver oil has the necessary vitamin A & D. 

The raw chicken for my kitten is a big hit. The older one on the turkey is having a hard time but I have a feeling he'll come around as he's searching high and low for food. The bowls are getting emptied either way (much better than with canned) and my kitten just loves it. It seems to also satisfy her more and she does not meow (beg!) as much right before meals like she was with the canned.


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Doeremi said:


> I used ground turkey for my chicken sensitive guy and mixed it with the Feline Future (FF) product. I didn't use a liver but next time I'll substitue a cow liver. With the FF product you just need the meat & liver. I just have heard that sometimes beef is hard on cats digestion & have avoided it thus far but it's worth a try. FF recommended cow liver as a substitue rather than cod liver oil which I learned about on another forum. The cod liver oil has the necessary vitamin A & D.
> 
> The raw chicken for my kitten is a big hit. The older one on the turkey is having a hard time but I have a feeling he'll come around as he's searching high and low for food. The bowls are getting emptied either way (much better than with canned) and my kitten just loves it. It seems to also satisfy her more and she does not meow (beg!) as much right before meals like she was with the canned.


That's great to hear!  

On a side note, I bought beef heart, as kim recommended, but the cat wouldn't touch it! I chopped it up in tiny pieces and he just eats around it :roll: I finally ground it up and mixed it in with the rest of the food. He hesitatingly ate it all, but looked at me like "maaan, why'd you have to go and spoil my dinner like that..." Here I thought I solved my chicken hearts problem, apparently not... :?


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## Doeremi (Aug 21, 2004)

genEus said:


> That's great to hear!
> 
> On a side note, I bought beef heart, as kim recommended, but the cat wouldn't touch it! I chopped it up in tiny pieces and he just eats around it :roll: I finally ground it up and mixed it in with the rest of the food. He hesitatingly ate it all, but looked at me like "maaan, why'd you have to go and spoil my dinner like that..." Here I thought I solved my chicken hearts problem, apparently not... :?


Darn, sorry to hear that. 

I've decided I'm going to buy the supplements and mix everything myself. Still deciding between making meat with or without the bones though. It's VERY expensive of course to buy ground turkey and ground chicken (@ $11 for 2 pounds at Whole Foods when you buy it already ground). I'm considering buying rabbit online at this company http://www.wholefoods4pets.com/dogs-cats.htm or this one http://www.hare-today.com/. I wonder if the PA shipment is too far. They have quail at the PA company as well. Has anyone tried either of these companies or recommend another?

Edit: Sorry this is the correct link for the quail http://www.hare-today.com/cart/products ... D=1&page=6. They also have duck and turkey livers!


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## genEus (Sep 7, 2004)

Definitely do NOT buy ground meat... When meat is ground, there's just THAT much more surface area for the bacteria to develop! 

Grind it yourself, it can be done perfectly with even the cheapest blender, as I had mentioned before! You don't need to spend more than $20 on it, and you probably already have on in your household too!


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