# Ziggy



## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

I started off telling Ziggy's story in the introduction thread, but I thought it might be better suited here. I'd like to keep a record of what's going on with him and plan to do it by periodically updating this thread.

Ziggy is my 13 year old black & white cat. He's been diagnosed with cancer in his liver & pancreas. The vet said he had anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months left. I was crushed when I got the news a week ago today. He's been my little buddy since he was 2 months old and I'm just crushed by the news. I'm a 43 year old man and I don't think I've ever cried this much. Several times over the past week I've broken down and cried like a baby. I love this little guy that much.

Before this turns totally depressing, I'd like to start from the beginning and tell his story. I picked him up from the Humane Society when he was just a kitten. He wasn't my first choice. There was another one who looked similar who stuck his paw out of the cage at me as I walked up. I liked him but they said he had already been adopted, but there was another one who looked like him. They said his name was Dino and that he was a little shy. I walked over to his cage and saw him crouched down in the back just looking up at me with scared eyes. They pulled him out so we could play a little and I knew right away he would be coming home with me. 

The first thing I had to do when I got him home was find a new name. He didn't look like a Dino to me. I found a website that suggested names for cats, scrolled all the way to the bottom and saw the name Ziggy. Somehow it seemed to fit.

Over time, he got over his shyness (at least with me, he always hid whenever anyone else was in the house). He would curl up on my shoulder at night and sleep there with his head against my neck. He loved to play "get the mouse" where I would throw his mouse and he'd bring it back to me. I couldn't pull my clothes out of the dryer without him jumping up on the dryer and climbing on my back when I bent over to pick the clothes up. 

The vet I was taking him to always creeped me out a little. He would make weird jokes and just seemed awkward. At the time I was feeding Ziggy a quarter can of food in the morning, a quarter can at night and leaving all the dry food out that he wanted. The vet said this was fine. Only recently did I learn that I had been underfeeding my cat all these years. I still wonder if that may have played some role in his illness. Eventually we stopped going to that vet and went a LONG time before going to another (another thing I'm feeling guilty about).

Over the years, Zig would occasionally stop eating. I assumed he was just being finicky and that he'd eat when he got hungry. He'd vomit on occasion, but I assumed it was a hairball and nothing to worry about. Maybe I should have paid more attention.

Fast forward to February 3rd of this year. Zig basically hadn't touched his food in several days. He had clearly lost weight. I decided it was time to get him checked out. 

He weighed in at 8.1 pounds. I actually thought it would be less than that. He was always small for a male cat but he had been up to 9.5 pounds at one point. So they ran some tests and said his thyroid was normal, kidneys were fine, intestines seemed ok, blood work was good, but there were some concerns about his liver and pancreas. We decided to go ahead with an ultrasound, which showed some anomalies (that's how they were described to me).

On the 6th, we decided to try a needle aspirate (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly) but they basically try to get a tissue sample without going through surgery. It came back inconclusive.

On the 9th he had surgery so that samples could be taken for biopsy. The vet said his liver was abnormal and there was some "mineralization" of his pancreas but she said she didn't see any reason to think it was cancer. I was relieved.

On the 15th, as I was walking in to work, the vet called and notified me that the results of the biopsy were in and showed that Ziggy did indeed have cancer. I tried my best to hold it together but had to leave my desk a few times during the day to have a cry. It was horrible hearing that there wasn't much that could be done and he had maybe two months left.

Since then I've been trying to keep him comfortable and making sure he eats. Sometimes I have to help him by syringe feeding him so that he gets enough food. He hated it at first and really fought me but he's settled down and lets me do it. I think he knows I'm trying to help him. As I said in the intro thread, the cancer may get him but there's no way I'm going to let him start a downward spiral from not eating. 

Over the past day or so he's gotten his appetite back and has eaten nearly a can and a half on his own. It really makes me feel good to come home and see that he's eaten almost all the food I left for him. He's a little more lively today and even played a little when I dangled a sock in front of him. He's doing well so far. I think this whole thing has been a lot harder on me than it has been on him. I'm trying to enjoy whatever time I have left with him. Hopefully there will be many more good days ahead.


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## cooncatbob (May 27, 2011)

I lost my 16 year old cat Samantha last May to cancer and I know how devastating it is to lose a loved one who been a daily part of your life for so long.


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## Leazie (Apr 14, 2007)

Many good thoughts for you and Ziggy. This must be an incredibly difficult time for both of you.we are here to support you.


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## popace (Feb 22, 2012)

My heart goes out to you. We lost our Tiggar to cancer 6 years ago. 
At the end my husband had to take her to the vet and make the decision to end her suffering as it was clear the cancer had reached her lungs. 
To be honest I think Tiggar had decided for herself it was time to go as she was no longer eating and just lay under the bed.
My husband held her as she was was put to sleep and was sobbing uncontrollably. He had to stay at the vets staff room for nearly an hour before they felt it would be safe for him to drive home he was so upset. They even let him leave by the back door rather than through a waiting room full of people.
He cried on and off for weeks after she was gone so don't fell bad about having a cry, its only natural in the circumstances.
I hope you and Ziggy have many good quality days to look forward to.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks all. It has been difficult. Today I went to the pet store to get him some more food and found myself not wanting to buy too many cans. :sad

Ziggy is hanging in there. He sleeps a lot but he stops by his bowl throughout the day to eat a bit. It really makes me happy to hear him eating. Such a simple thing, but it always makes me smile. He's not showing any signs of pain and he's still fairly agile. He's able to jump up on the bed easily, and our bed is pretty high. 

He hasn't vomited in almost a month, coincidentally (or not) that's about the same amount of time since he's eaten any significant amount of dry food. I'll never feed a cat dry food again after some of the things I've read about it. I wish I had learned sooner. 

It's been 10 days since the diagnosis, so he's about to enter that "couple of weeks to maybe a month or two" the vet said he had left. At that point we'll just take it one day at a time and I'll make sure I spend some extra time with him each day. I let him know you all were thinking about him.


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## katlover13 (Apr 15, 2008)

It sounds like you and Ziggy have a very special relationship. I hope you have many quality days together.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Here's a pic of Ziggy from early December. He's telling me it's time to eat.


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## kittywitty (Jun 19, 2010)

Ziggy looks like a very sweet special cat and I am so sorry you are going through this. We are here for you.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

What a handsome boy Ziggy is all decked out with a white vest....he really looks like he's dressed in a tuxedo.....yes he's definitely a Ziggy and not a Dino!

I hope you have Ziggy for a long time....you never know, he may fool the vet's prognosis. All the best to you and Ziggy.


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## popace (Feb 22, 2012)

He really is a good looking boy !


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Ziggy is still doing great and maybe improving a bit. He would always jump up on the bed to get me up when it was time to eat. When he started getting sick in late January, he stopped doing that. That was a major hint to me that something was wrong. I called him my furry alarm clock because he was always there every morning. Well suddenly after a month of not getting me up, the last two days I have been awakened by a paw in the face. It's just a great thing to see a little of his old self returning. I honestly think the syringe feedings coupled with no more dry food have been making a difference. He still doesn't eat much on his own so what I've been doing is taking up whatever he hasn't eaten after a couple of hours and I put that in the syringe and feed it to him. It seems to be making a difference. I honestly don't know if he would still be here if I hadn't learned about assist feeding.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

So it seems for every up, there's a down. My wife called me this afternoon and said he had vomited mucus and was retching pretty heavily. She called the vet and they said that unless he was in distress, there was no reason to bring him in. I guess knowing your cat has been given a death sentence makes you a little more sensitive to every issue. Every time something happens, every time he doesn't eat, every time he sleeps a little too much, I wonder if this is it for him.

And then he seemed fine when I got home. He came running to the front door when I came in and he started meowing for food. Over the next few hours he ate almost half a can of food. 

I don't know what to think. Was it a one time thing? He hadn't vomited in about a month before today. It's certainly something I'll need to keep an eye on. He still doesn't appear to be in any pain, but I have to admit this worries me. I don't want him to suffer, but his current condition doesn't warrant having him put to sleep yet. I know that day is coming and, sadly, I've been mentally preparing myself for it for a while now.


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## BotanyBlack (Apr 6, 2011)

I send lots of hugs.

I knew I was going to lose my Sherbert months before I did. I still cried. It is hard to lose a companion after so many years.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

It seems Ziggy may have gained a little weight back. I can't feel his ribcage as well as I could a couple weeks ago. I'm still having to force feed him just about every day since he isn't eating enough on his own, although I'm not really "forcing" him. He just sits there quietly and lets me feed him. He gets a little grumpy and whiny sometimes towards the end when he's starting to get full. 

I'm looking for anything I can hang on to as a positive sign and knowing that he put on a little bit of weight, even if it's only a few ounces, is something that makes me pretty happy. He also seems a little more alert and a little less like sleepy old-man cat. 

I have noticed that he seems to have a little trouble getting comfortable when he lays down on his blanket. He just looks like his joints might be a little stiff. It doesn't appear serious but it is noticeable. He can still jump up on the bed and doesn't seem to have any problems going up & down the stairs. 

Well, that's today's update. He's hanging in there so far, and we're glad he's still with us.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

EAT YOUR FOOD!!!!

He has only eaten a couple small bites of food on his own since Friday night. It's so frustrating. If it wasn't for the syringe feedings I keep doing, he might not be here. 

I wonder sometimes if I'm doing the right thing. I'm sure I'll extend his life if I keep forcing food into him, but what kind of life is it if he just wants to lay around napping all the time? Times like this make me think that he might be giving up. 

So truly frustrating.


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## popace (Feb 22, 2012)

Sending you lots of hugs. This is such a difficult time for you. One thing is for sure, Ziggy is lucky to have such a caring owner.
When we realised we were keeping Tiggar going because we couldn't bear to be without her we made the decision to end her pain. 
Trust me, if you need to make the decision you will know when the time is right.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks. Every day is a new day. Since my last post about him not eating, he's gobbled down two 5.5 ounce cans on his own. It's nice to get a break from the syringe feedings. Maybe he realized that we don't have to do them when he eats on his own. 

I wandered into the Rainbow Bridge section of the site this morning because I realized that by focusing so much on what he is and isn't eating, I have been kinda ignoring the fact that he has a disease that will ultimately take his life. So I went looking for some thoughts and ideas on coping with the impending loss of a pet. I read so many heartbreaking stories that I just broke down and cried. Ziggy seemed to sense something was wrong and climbed up in my lap. Such a good kitty. 

He also was never very fond of my wife. He tolerated her but basically ignored her. I guess its because it was just me and him for so long that he felt uncomfortable having someone else in the house. Well last night he climbed up in her lap and took a nap. I thought to myself that maybe it was his way of making amends before he goes and letting her know that she's ok too. 

So every day we play "how much did kitty eat" and I wonder how many days he has left. Every day when I leave for work I give him a pat on the head and a scratch under the chin and tell him I love him because I don't know if it will be the last time I get to tell him. Based on how he's acting though, it seems like he's going to stick around a while. As mentioned above, I'll know when it's time, and it's not time yet (which are the exact words I would use whenever he tried to get me up two hours earlier than the alarm). 

So that's the theme for today's update. "It's not time yet."


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## popace (Feb 22, 2012)

What an amazing lad Ziggy is. Good on him for putting up such a good fight ! 
I really hope you have many happy days left together.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Lucas,

I've been having a difficult time making myself read your thread because I believe I'm going through something similar with my Noddy. Unlike you, though, I haven't had Nods definitively diagnosed. I do suspect, however, that he has some type of cancer - perhaps intestinal lymphoma, or perhaps just IBD. In any event, if it is cancer as I suspect, I would not opt for chemo, so the diagnosis seems moot.

I, too, assist feed Noddy every day to supplement the very small amount that he eats on his own. I also give him subQ fluids twice daily, along with a slew of meds and supplements. 

Like your handsome Ziggy, Noddy has good days and bad days. I sooo understand the emotional roller coaster you're on and the inevitable resolution you'd rather not think about. I'm right there with you. The only advice I can offer is to leave the future in the future, and keep your focus on Ziggy today, now, in this moment.

I'm going to go get my chocolate soymilk and toast to our boys. May Ziggy and Noddy have many more good days to come.

Take care,

Laurie


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## Alpaca (Dec 21, 2009)

Ziggy looks almost like my Cap'n Jack. I call Jack my useless little butler who looks like a butler but I have to wait on him.

I'm so sorry this. It's hard but just know that whenever and however they go, you provided the best you could for them and it's always better than life at the shelter. Take care.


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## dweamgoil (Feb 3, 2010)

Lucas and Laurie,

You will be both in our thoughts at our house. I can't imagine how tough it must be to hang in there knowing each day could be the last, but you guys are doing the right thing by providing the best care possible and making them comfortable.

I do agree with Laurie, Lucas. Concentrate on making Ziggy as comfortable as possible, and making each day count for the both of you. The inevitable may be down the road, but cross that bridge when you come to it. From experience, I can honestly tell you it's so comforting to know that our babies actually felt loved when they are no longer with us. Hugs to you, both!


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Laurie, so sorry to hear you are having a similar experience. I think we're of the same mind as far as treatment. I refused to put him through chemo as I believe it would be too hard on him and at best might only buy him a short amount of time. It just didn't seem worth it to me. I agree about only worrying about the present. I hope you & Noddy have many happy days ahead.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Thank you, Lucas. I'm no stranger to dealing with animals with terminal illnesses. In fact, five of my cats are in renal failure, and two (and most likely a third) have hyperthyroidism. Noddy, however, is different because I don't have a definitive diagnosis, so I'm not certain what I'm dealing with. In his case, however, all of the likely diagnoses would be managed similarly. All a diagnosis would give me is a guesstimated timeline that I'd just as soon not have.

Two management strategies that you may want to discuss with your vet, if you haven't already, are prednisolone, which can both stimulate appetite and reduce inflammation associated with tumor growth, and providing supplemental subQ fluids at home, which can make a cat feel MUCH better if he's not taking in sufficient water on his own. In addition to both pred and fluids, I'm giving Noddy metoclopramide daily to suppress vomiting. Before I started him on metoclopramide, Noddy was unable to keep ANYTHING down. Now he only vomits if I overfeed him. His gut can only handle small, frequent meals at this point.

Anyway, I just wanted to pass those ideas along in case they might be of some use in your management of Ziggy.

Laurie


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Laurie, thanks for the suggestions. I'm glad you posted them here as they will be easy to find when I need them. 

For now though, Ziggy is doing well. It has been a week since we've had to do an assist feeding. I've also stopped giving him his appetite stimulant (Mirtazapine) because he's eating well on his own. I can't explain it. He has a new interest in food and he's back to letting me know when it's time to eat. I realize all this could change at any time but for now I'm not as worried about finding him in a bad state when I come home at night as I was a month ago. 

So far, so good.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm so glad to hear that Ziggy is doing well. I hope his good spirits and appetite continue for a long time to come.

Laurie


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

It has been a few weeks, but no news is good news. He seems to have stabilized over the past few weeks. He's been eating on his own and I haven't had to do a force feeding in over a month. It has been 7 weeks since the vet told me he had "a couple of weeks to a month, maybe two" left. 

I still think that removing the dry food is a big reason why he has stabilized. I read somewhere that cancer tumors feed on carbohydrates and we all know that dry food is a lot of carbs. So he has been eating about a full can of Friskies every day. I know it isn't the best food out there, but he likes it. He won't eat any of the better brands. He loves the shredded chicken, he'll tolerate the beef, and I just found out that he also likes the shredded turkey, which is good news since I'm trying to wean him off the tuna and salmon. 

He isn't very active but he still comes and gets me up every morning and he runs to the front door every night when I come home. Other than that, he pretty much just lays around all day on his stool in the living room by the sliding glass door. I opened the blinds a bit so he can look out over the yard, and he loves it in the afternoon when the sun shines in on him and warms him up.

He's happy, he's eating, and he's telling me he's not ready to go out just yet. Big change from 7 weeks ago when I was led to believe he could go at any time.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Today marks exactly two months since the vet said Ziggy had "a couple of weeks to a month, maybe two" left. That phrase has been burned into my memory ever since she said it. Well, exactly 2 months later Ziggy is right now in the kitchen happily eating his breakfast. He has officially outlived his prognosis! Every day is now an extra day he wasn't supposed to have. I hope there's a lot of them.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Somewhere earlier in the thread I complained that Ziggy wasn't eating. Now it's the exact opposite. He seems to be hungry all the time. He has been eating an entire can per day, and some days up to as much as 1 1/2 cans. Despite this he seems to be getting skinnier. I can really feel all the bones under his skin. When he meows, a lot of times either nothing comes out or he simply croaks out "ehhh". I'm afraid he may be starting to lose the battle.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Lucas718 said:


> Somewhere earlier in the thread I complained that Ziggy wasn't eating. Now it's the exact opposite. He seems to be hungry all the time. He has been eating an entire can per day, and some days up to as much as 1 1/2 cans. Despite this he seems to be getting skinnier. I can really feel all the bones under his skin. When he meows, a lot of times either nothing comes out or he simply croaks out "ehhh". I'm afraid he may be starting to lose the battle.


Actually, everything you just described - excessive hunger, weight loss, hoarseness - are common symptoms of hyperthyroidism, though I would assume they could occur with other illnesses, as well. I wouldn't necessarily assume that these symptoms have anything to do with his previous diagnosis, though. If he is hyperT, that can and should be managed with medication. HyperT is diagnosed with a Total T4 blood test.

Always something new these kitty kids throw at us, eh?

Hang in there,

Laurie


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

laurief said:


> Actually, everything you just described - excessive hunger, weight loss, hoarseness - are common symptoms of hyperthyroidism, though I would assume they could occur with other illnesses, as well. I wouldn't necessarily assume that these symptoms have anything to do with his previous diagnosis, though. If he is hyperT, that can and should be managed with medication. HyperT is diagnosed with a Total T4 blood test.
> 
> Always something new these kitty kids throw at us, eh?
> 
> ...


Always something is right.


He's got a vet appointment in a couple of hours. New symptoms include a bloated stomach, swelling in his left front and right hind legs, trouble going up & down the stairs, and a total inability to jump or climb up on anything more than a few inches high. He doesn't appear to be grooming himself anymore, either. 


He's still using the litterbox with no issues and his appetite is still strong, but I'm getting worried that he may not come home from this vet visit.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

As I expected, Ziggy didn't come home from his vet visit. His battle is over. His pain is gone. The doctor said he was in liver failure and his condition would only deteriorate. I made the decision to end his suffering. 

Zig, you've been a great friend all these years and I will miss you terribly. Rest in peace my sweet, silly, crazy little buddy.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)




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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Lucas,

I am so very sorry for your loss of the handsome Ziggy. I wish you a peaceful grief.

Laurie


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## Leesa (Jun 13, 2010)

UGH............I'm so very sorry Lucas. I know what u are goning though. I just lost my boy to Squasmous Cell Caricinmoa (I probally spelled that wrong). It was under his tongue. Its been 1 month and 9 days, I still cry everyday! Its so hard. Ziggy knew you LOVED him and he had a great life with you. I'm sitting trying to find words for you, but I know first hand just someone knowing how you feel can help. Someone gave me an idea the other night about making a scrap book w/ all the "GOOD" pics and remembering the good times...........Does that make sence?? I hope maybe Ziggy is playing with my Simon..........who knows maybe they can be besties up there until we take them home!!! ~~Lisa in PA


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## Cat'sHouse (Apr 5, 2012)

A very touching but sad story. What you have done for Ziggy is super and you are to be commended for it. Death of our pets is something most of us must deal with. I have a picture of my CC on my computer homepage and even tho he has been gone about 5 wks now, we say hello everytime I log on. The tears are gone now but the memories will last forever and one day I will see him again.

Keep doing what you can to make his last days enjoyable...if one can call them that. Just being with you will help. I made a tribute to my CC here and in it, he crawled to the edge of the bed when he heard my voice and died soon after I came up to the room with my son. I think he wanted to say goodby and hung on till I returned home. I don't know how else to look at it.

Ziggy is like my Kermits twin. I have to put some pics on my profile soon. Kermit and I are like you and Ziggy and I sure would miss him. Hopefully I will go first.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you all for the kind words and support. When I started this thread back in February, I honestly believed that Ziggy would only be around for a few short weeks. It was truly a gift to have him as long as I did. 


Today for the first time in almost 14 years I woke up with no cat to feed. Every morning right up until the end he made the effort to get me up each morning. Even when he could no longer jump up on the bed and could barely climb the stairs, he'd at least make his way into the room and meow for me. I'm going to miss that, just like I'll miss his happy little face greeting me at the front door each night when I come home from work.


The house just seems extra quiet and empty this morning. We've put away all his blankets, removed the litter box and his bowls, and thrown out all the food that will never be eaten. And I still keep expecting to see him peeking around a corner at me and I keep thinking I'm going to hear him call for me to fill his bowl one more time. 

I'm sure I'm feeling what everyone feels when they make the decision to have their animal friends put to sleep... Did I do it too soon? Was the decision the best for him or was it just so I wouldn't have to deal with his health issues? What if I had given him a little more time?



I miss you Zig, and I hope you understand why I made the decision I had to make.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

This stinks. I don't think I've ever cried so much in my life. The first thing I did when I came home tonight was look for Ziggy. It was just a split second glance at the spot where he should have been, but it was enough to remind me that he's not going to be there ever again. 

I really really miss him.


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## orrymain (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear about Ziggy. Although the decision you had to make was a difficult one, I believe you made the right one. Cats hide their pain so well so it will always be hard to know for sure if the time has come but Ziggy knew he was well taken care of and loved. Take care.


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## laurief (Jun 22, 2008)

Lucas, 

I'm sorry for the pain you're feeling. It's the flip side of all the joy that Ziggy gave you over the years. But no matter how intense the pain now, it will never cancel out all of that joy. When the pain subsides ... and it will, in time ... you will still be left with the joy.

On very rare occasions in my life, I have been gifted with fleeting visits from 4-legged beloveds who had passed. It's typically a quick, yet familiar, flash in the corner of my eye that lets me know that a beloved is still present. Once, many years ago, I even heard my goat bleat in the yard outside my barn, months after she passed. These visits don't happen nearly as often as I'd like, and most of my beloveds never come back at all, but it always makes me happy when they do. Or maybe it's just my mind's eye holding them close to help me through the losses. Either way, I hope that Ziggy will return to let you know that he'll always be with you.

Ziggy knew how much you loved him. He also knew how sick he was. Even if he was the type to hold a grudge, he wouldn't be holding one now. Second guessing is one of our many human failings. When the acute pain dulls a bit, come back to this thread and read your last descriptions of Ziggy's condition. That will help you put this loss and your decision into proper perspective. 

Take care,

Laurie


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Now that you mention it, I think maybe Zig has come back to check on me. Already a couple of times I thought I caught a glimpse of him out of the corner of my eye, and I swear I thought I heard him in the kitchen getting a drink of water. 

I read somewhere that the tears you shed are the price you pay for all the love your pet gave you over the years. I guess that explains why there have been so many tears. I didn't just lose a pet, I lost my best friend.


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## sunset97 (May 24, 2011)

I am so very sorry for your loss. RIP Ziggy.


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## Nan (Oct 11, 2010)

I am sorry for your loss of Ziggy and wish you peace in your grief.


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## KMK83 (Mar 6, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss. Ziggy was a lucky cat to be loved so much, and it sounds like he had a full, happy life.


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## Penny135 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear about Ziggy. Time makes the pain a little easier but we never forget our babies! Thinking about you.


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## Lucas718 (Feb 19, 2012)

Not really much more to say here except thank you to everyone who took the time to read & post in this thread.

I've started a new thread in the Rainbow Bridge section, here: http://www.catforum.com/forum/50-over-rainbow-bridge/154144-ziggy-1998-2012-a.html#post848613


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