# taking babies away from VERY attatched mother



## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

OK, this may be long but I've never seen this behavior before and I really want you to understand exactly what has been going on.

So, this cat was a feral mom who had two 3-4 month old kittens. They were going to be killed so we trapped them and put them in my office at my house. But, when they lived outside, we noticed just how clingy SHE was with her kittens. She would be literally behind them everywhere, even when they would play. It's like she was a first time mom or something and she was too anxious to be away from them. This went on even while they were living in my office to the point that she would breast feed them still! At 4 months old! And mind you we gave them soft and dry food everyday.

Not long after they came in she gave birth to 5 kittens. We had to take away the 2 older kittens (one loved people so we took him to the Humane Society to hopefully be adopted out but the other older kitty still lives here, now in my room)

OK, so momma cat has been living in my office with the new kittens for almost 3 months now and she is still all over these like she was with the other two. They get more than enough food but she STILL breast feeds them from time to time. She calls them if they are too far....and my office isn't that big plus we even took out all the furniture so they would have more room. If one of the kittens runs too fast away from us when we come in the room she will hiss at us and she never used to do this. I think they are too big for her to be acting that way and that she is way to attached and we are seriously worried that when we take away the kittens sometime this month that she will go crazy or something. I'm not afraid that she'll bite or scratch us. What we are worried about is her state of mind. We are going to keep her (living in my office since I have cats and dogs) but what if she gets so depress she doesn't eat? Or so anxious she goes crazy?

We are at our wits ends because we have NO idea how to do this. We did keep one of her older kittens (a female) that is too afraid of people and we hoped to at least bring her back into my office to live with her mom once the younger kittens were not here. We hoped that maybe the mom wouldn't be stressed or be lonely once she was back with at least one of her older kittens because there is nowhere else for her to live except in my office as we have no other room available. We don't care if they have to live there for the rest of their lives since we are willing to take care of them so they won't be killed.

If anyone can help us I would be more than thankful because we are so depressed over this and time is running out.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

So you have a supermomcat have you? Had one of those once. My "Missy" was not content with her own litter, she used to steal kitties from another female to nurse as well. "Too many kitties"! just wasn't in her vocabulary. It was hard to wean the kittens, as she would just keep on nursing them, even if they were 5 mos. old or older. 

It would be best to let her nurse her kittens until at least 12 wks, then start to wean them gradually by allowing them to spend less and less time with her. I suggest you start bringing in her older 4 mo. kitten a week or so before you send her younger kitties to new homes. I don't think she will miss the younger ones that much, and the older one will keep her happy. She should be spayed after she's weaned her kittens. Good luck.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

ok, how do we wean the kittens and how do we get them to spend less time with her? I only have that one room so there is literally nowhere else to put them. When we tried once to take them away she started crying after a couple of hours


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Do you not have a bathroom separate from your other room with a door on it? If you don't have a separate room, you could buy a playpen (available as most pet stores) to put the kitties in, tho you'd likely have to put a sheet of plastic on the top or piece of plywood or something to keep out momacat. Put the kitties in the bathroom/playpen for most of the day and only allow them to nurse on momacat _once a day_. This should gradually dry up her milk so she has less to give them. _Feed the kitties first_ before you let them nurse, so that they're already full and won't want to nurse too long. It's nursing a long time that stimulates the milk productiion. 

This should decrease her milk gradually with less nursing, otherwise she could develop mastitis if you suddenly cut the kittens off from nursing on her. Mastitis can appear suddenly with little warning. Look for heat coming up around the nipples, swelling around the base of the teats and watch the her behavior for any sudden changes (lethargy). If you suspect your cat has mastitis, call your vet immediately! Hope this helps, and look forward to hearing how things are going.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

ok, so mom cries if we take away the babies. and they start crying. and then I wanna shoot myself lol I just feel so bad for her. I'm thinking of introducing her older kitten back now while she still has the younger ones to see if hopefully when we take them away she'll have the older one with her and won't cry. Is that doable? Also, how do you introduce two cats? I've fostered tons of cats and dogs but not together so I don't know how to do this. :?


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

How long has it been since she was separated from her older kitten? You may not need an introduction as she will probably recognize him. You could bring him in the office in a carrier and see what her reaction is. How old is he? If she walks up and hisses you'll know she doesn't recognize him, and if he's not yet neutered that could be reason enough she doesn't want him around. He should be neutered first ifhe isn't (anytime over 4mos.is OK) and that should be done first before introducing her, as she may come into heat again soon.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

You're going to have to show some tough love here if you want these kittens weaned and ignore her protestations.

I should have mentioned when you bring the older kitten in the office in the carrier, make sure you have the younger kittens _out of the room_ somewhere else. Most females are very protective and she may still be in that frame of mind and try to attack if her younger kittens are there with her.

Another thing you can try to discourage the kittens from nursing is to put a stretchy tube top (child size should fit) on her so that her teats are covered up.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

the older kitty is a female and she was spayed. we separated them about a month or month-and-a-half ago on the day we got her neutered. mom went crazy when she came home. apparently didn't like the smell of her so that's why we separated her from mom and the newborns. so it's been almost 2 months that they've seen each other.

the older kitten is about 5-6 months.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Does your momcat have a cat bed or blanket she lies on? Before you bring her older daughter into the room in a carrier, _rub momcat's blanket all over her._ Momcat may be more accepting of her daughter with her scent on her. It's possible she might remember the vet smell incident, but most cat's live in the moment, and she's probably forgotten all about that. It's often a common reaction for a cat to be upset by another cat housemate because of the vet office smell even tho you think the cat would know it's catfriend. Usually they get over it in a day or two.


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## lovetimesfour (Dec 1, 2010)

Nothing to add...but following with interest.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

thanks guys! 

gave mom a blanket and will then get a crate so we can put the older kitty back with mom to see what will happen. will keep you guys posted.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

ok, finally got a crate and now I'm ready to put the older kitten in it. the question now is: what's the procedure for getting mom to recognize her? I mean, I figure I'll sit by the crate because the kitten will be locked in the crate and she may get scared when she sees mom and the younger kittens trying to sniff her and she has nowhere to go. also, how long do we do this? a couple of minutes? or more?

I've had to put his kitten in a crate before and she starts crying. will that have a negative effect on mom or her?


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Try rubbing towels on each of them and then switching back and forth.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

on the mom? she doesn't let anyone touch her. she scratched me yesterday when she thought I got to close (I was cleaning the floor near her lol)


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

You're going to have to spend more time with feral momcat to get her used to being handled...at least picked up. When you feed her don't leave the food down so that she can eat when she wants. You want her to know that good things=food come from you! Sit on the floor and hand feed her all her meals. As she gets more comfortable with you, encourage her to come closer. While she's eating just touch her briefly and gently on her back and as she gets more accustomed to your hand, stroke her lightly for a little longer periods. You don't want to scrare, anger or rush her beyond her comfort level as it will just set her back to not trusting people. When she gets to the stage where she's comfortable with you stroking her, just lift her up briefly a few inches above the floor. You should be able to gradually be able to lift her up higher, but it's going to take baby steps and you'll have to go at her speed of comfort and acceptance. If momcat's been feral since she was a kitten, it will be more difficult to tame her so that she enjoys touch and being handled. 

You can't put a time on it or how long it will take for her to accept her older kitten again. It will all depend on momcat's frame of mind. Just make sure you feed momcat first, as most cats if they're hungry can get cranky and aggressive. Ideally, if momcat isn't hissing and seems to be accepting her older kitty, you can let older kitty out of carrier in your lap, and hand feed her too. Smear a little canned food on top of her head. It might be the stimulus for momcat to wash her daughter.

Here's a series of excellent videos in how to deal with feral kittens.

Socializing (Taming) Feral Kittens - New York City Feral Cat Initiative - Mayor's Alliance for NYC's Animals


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

That's just the weird thing, either my mom or I sit and cross-legged and put the plate on top of us and hold it there and she eats just fine. We've also put food in our hand and she eats and licks it. When we come in the room and a lot of times she is at the door and she kind of meows at us and just sits there not caring what we do. 

It's when she thinks that we are trying to touch HER, which we've never tried to do so as not to frighten her (rather than her touching us) that she goes on the defensive. It's so weird really, 99% of the time she doesn't care that we clean right up to where she is but I think that she just has moments where she thinks that you're going to touch her or something. She's been here for about a few months now and this has happened like twice only. 

My question about the time I just mean like how long each day should I have the older kitten in the crate in that room? I don't think she'd like to be locked in there for even an hour a day. Am I wrong or is it fine for that long even if I'm there with her?

Thanks for the videos! I'm going to check them now.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

A short visit at the beginning, say 10-15 mins. Will be interested in hearing momcat's reaction to her.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

thanks so much! I'm going to do that tomorrow first thing since mom and babies are sleeping now. Here are a couple of pics I took of them earlier today


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Lovely brown torbie momacat...yes they are wonderful mothers---sometimes too much so! and can be spunky. The supermom I was telling you about was a blue torbie. Momacat's kitties certainly look old enough to be adopted out now. Is her milk drying up? It should be if you're not letting them nurse more than once a day. Very cute kitties, 2 red mackeral tabby & white, and 2 black & white bicolors. You shouldn't have any trouble having them adopted/sold. They should be vet checked, wormed and have first shots before going to new homes. Thanks for sharing the pics.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Actually one of kitties looks like a brown tabby & white bicolor. Hard to tell from head-on pic whether the tabby pattern is classic or mackeral.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

Here's what happened so far: we left both the doors to my office and my bedroom (they are right in front of each other) a little bit open so that the younger kitties would wander outside in the hall and the older kitty would perhaps come out of my room too (to see how they would react). Well, the older kitten hissed at the younger kittens. She didn't like them at all. The younger kittens were more interested in exploring the hall so they didn't care what went on with the older kitten (who promptly ran and hid under my bed).

Here's the new dilema, we are thinking that if we put the older kitten in the crate so we can re-introduce her to mom the older kitten will start hissing since we are fairly sure that the younger kittens will want to snoop around the crate as well. If she didn't like the younger kittens when she was free to leave I think she'd like them even less if she is stuck in a crate. Then, if she hisses at them won't the mom cat hiss ate her? Cuz, you know, she is still attatched to the younger ones and maybe doesn't remember her older kitten. Ugh. This is so complicated.

We are trying to do this with minimal damage to both mom and the older kitten since they are the ones that will stay here (and the young kittens aren't scared of their older sister).

Should we just take the younger kittens to the Humane Society and THEN reintroduce mom to her older kitten? We have nowhere to put the kittens for a while so if we take them out of the office at all they would immediatly have to go. 

Thanks so much for helping out! I know this is really frustrating. We just feel so bad for mom! I know I would be devastated if they took my kid away especially when that's the only company she's had for the past 3 months.


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## Jack&Harley (Nov 2, 2008)

My advice comes from raising a litter of 5 with the help of a mom cat and a litter of 5 where I was the mom cat. If you don't slowly wean neither mom or kits will have a desire to give up on it. When I handraised the litter I too cried during weaning-they wanted to suckle soo bad but I had to not give in and bottle feed. I cut back a bottle each day. As far as introducing mom to older baby-wait until the younger kittens are gone. Too much stress for everyone otherwise.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

So what are your plans for the young kitties who are at an age now that they can be placed? Do you have people who want to adopt them? Did you plan on keeping any? If not, it would be best if you took them to the humane society, don't have the older kitten & younger kitties together at the same time with momcat. After young kitties have left, reintroduce older kitty to momcat in case she's forgotten her. If you've been gradually limiting and reducing the nursing, her milk should be drying up. Don't feel bad for momcat if the young kitties go, as before you know it she will be in heat again soon and then will be ignoring them or chasing them away. Seems you've decided to keep momcat, or even if you're not, you should really try to get momcat comfortable to being handled as, otherwise it will be difficult for you pick her up, put her in a carrier take her to the vet to be spayed, shots, clip her claws, etc. Also, she will not likely be adoptable if you take her to a humane society, but it would be something you'd have to discuss with them. If you can't spend the time to train her, then perhaps the humane society has people who will. I hope things work out for you whatever you decide. All the best!


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks so much guys for all your input! You've no idea how much better we feel now. We're taking the 5 young kittens to the humane society since there is no way I would give them to anyone. Lots of seriously weird people out there. 

Mom wouldn't be adoptable at all, they would put her down, so we are keeping her and her older kitten so we will start reintroducing after the holidays (we're taking the kittens to the humane society on the 2 of january). Also we are confident that when the months or years go by mom will get more used to the house and to us. We've no time limit since she's going to live here so we're ok going as slow as she needs. 

How would mom being in heat afecct her relationship with her older kitten? There is no question of them leaving that room (much less the house, it's sort of impossoble to get out unless we specifically let her) so we're wondering if it would be better to just wait a couple months after her older kitten and her are getting along so as not to give her too many things to stress over at once, like taking her younger kittens, reintroduction and then a forced vet visit. 

We're not worried about her getting pregnant at all but we wondered how it would affect her and her older kittens relationshiop


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

If you're older kitten is male and not neutered, you should have it neutered first before you reintroduce him/her to momcat, otherwise he is at the age where he is old enough to breed. It's hard to say how she will react to her older kitten in heat. She may just bug the kitten trying to interest it in mating with her, or chase it away, or just ignore it. Very difficult to predict what her behavior might be when she comes into heat. Sometimes a mother will rebuff a kitten that is related to her if it tries to mate with her, but on the other hand I once had a brother-sister mating by accident, so one never knows!


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

I see that you referred to the "older kitten" as "her" in a previous post, so assume she's female. If she hasn't been spayed yet, she should be. So what I said in previous post about the unpredictability of behaviour of momcat to her older kitten still holds. What might happen, tho, is that if momcat comes into heat, and older daughter is not spayed, she may also come into heat at the same time. This oftens happens with females coming into heat at the same time. They won't fight, but will probably drive you nuts with their calling, and females will spray urine while in heat.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Any update on what you've decided with momcat's kittens? Did you take them to the humane society? Just wondering....


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

Sorry for not replying sooner. With the holidays we had a full house. The older kitten is female and she was spayed like 2 months ago. 

OK, right now we are going to take away the kittens. One question: both my mom and I have to go to the humane society since I can't handle them all by myself. Is it ok to leave the mom in the room by herself or should we get someone to sit in there with her? I don't know if she'll start to cry or something when we leave with her kittens.

If anyone is here now and could help it would be awesome since we need to take them now.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm sure she will fuss at first, but she will get over it. If you have a towel or blanket that she's been lying on, rub it all over her older kitty before you introduce her back to momcat. 

After the young kitties have left.....If you have a large dog crate, you can put older kitty in it (with litter box, & water) and put it in the room with momcat until she gets used to her again. 

If you don't have a dog crate you could put older kitty in the carrier and let her sit in it for a while until momcat gets used to her again. It would be better if you're not free-feeding momcat (don't have food down all the time), and when you give momcat her meal, feed older kitty at the same time. You may have to leave the carrier in the room for only an hour at the beginning. Hopefully momcat gets the idea that being fed with kitty there is a good thing. When she's more comfortable with kitty there in the carrier, after a while you can let kitty out and feed her too at the same time, but not too close to momcat. I think momcat should look forward to you bringing in the older kitty as she will miss the younger ones. I hope it works out that way.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

Thank you so much for all your help. We took the kitties in today and the whole ordeal was absolutely HORRIBLE. I managed to get them out of the room and in my bathroom thinking they would be easier to trap plus they would be away from momcat so she couldn't intervene. That was the easy part since they were all curious about getting in the bathroom. Soon as I closed the door all **** broke loose. It took us hours to finally get them all in crates. The last two were the ones that were always scared of their own shadow so they ripped my mom's and my hand. Seriously we bled like crazy and have plenty of scratches to show for it. The whole ordeal was from 9 am to almost 2 pm. Half the time we couldn't even reach them when they hid under the sink, etc.

I should mention that before we had to grab and force them in the cages we did try just about everything to get them to go in voluntarily. We place food in the crate and did just about everything we could think of but nothing work so we had to do what we did.

Understandably, all that time there was plenty of crying, hissing, and running like mad all over the bathroom and poor mom could hear the whole thing in the next room. Not to mention the effect it had on my mom and myself since it's just heartbreaking to see the poor kitties so scared and crying.

After that I took them to the Humane Society and they didn't want to take them because they had scratched me so badly. At first i was going to lie and say they didn't do it but the kid that was working there has the task of grabbing all the cats that come in right at the front desk and locking them in their own crates. I knew soon as he put his hand in our crates it would be bitten or scratched and the kitties could escape in the process so that's why I couln't lie. I was already crying since it was so horrible to have to take the kittens away from their mom. Finally he called the supervisor and they said they could stay but they would have them in quarantine for 10 days and if they weren't friendly after that then they would have to be killed. Of course I started bawling after they told me that because I am sure that there is no way the two scared kitties will be friendly in 10 days. It was all so horrible I couldn't even drive back home. My friend had to go get me and my mom wasn't doing so well either.

We left mom cat alone for a couple more hours because we figured she would be highly stresses after all the noise from before. She started crying so we got in the room with her and gave her food. It's now 12:30 am and she is sleeping but every so often (especially before she fell alseep about an hour ago) she would walk around the room and just cry. It's just so horrible I can't stop crying. I feel like the most horrible person in the world because I took away her kitties and I'm sure at least two will be killed.

We had an idea of using a baby fence in the door to the office and then letting her older kitten loose near it to see what they would do (since I won't have a crate till tomorrow and we just felt so bad having her crying). So far all they do is look at each other. The kittens spens more time looking at the mom. The mom goes to look at her but she will start crying again and walk away. A couple of times mom was the one that got close to the fence to look at the kitten but most of the time she's been either lying down or crying. 

I'm sleeping in the room with momcat because I don't think we should leave her alone especially if she starts crying. Hopefully that will help her a bit not being alone in the room.

I will keep you posted about what happens tomorrow once we get the kitten in the crate and in the room with mom. Thanks again for listening and being there for us.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear it was such a traumatic event for everyone and especially that you and your mom got scratched up badly. Guess you should have had thick leather gloves or oven mitts or something to handle them. I do hope you washed the scratches with soap and water and put on some neosporin or polytropin as the skin can get easily infected from cat scratches or bites. There wasn't anything you did wrong in getting them in the crates. They wouldn't go in voluntarily, so they had to be caught and put in.

Unfortunately, the kittens were left too long with momcat and she taught them to react that way. I think things would have gone better had they been taken away earlier from momcat and had more time with you handling them individually and being socialized. I do hope that the humane society will give them a chance and can find someone who can spend the time to foster them to get them socialized before adoption.

There is good news here, and that is momcat, even tho she's missing her kitties which is normal, she's _not_ rejecting her older kitten and is showing mild interest in her. She's not hissing or growling, so that is a _good_ _sign_. I think she will accept her fairly quickly. That was sweet of you to keep her company her first night away from her kitties. It will take a little while, but momcat will soon forget her kitties. All the best to you and your mom.


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

thanks for your kind words. it was so devastating when they told me they had 10 days to see if they were friendly enough.

momcat spent most of the night crying. she was sleepy and her eyes kept closing but she would start crying nonetheless. it was really sad. each time she started crying I opened the door and let her look at her kitten thru the baby fence. that made her feel a bit better I guess since she would stop crying to look at the kitty. I was going to do the crate thing with the kitty but I found another cat and now I have no more rooms to put him in so he's in the living room with me and I had to leave mom alone but she hasn't cried for most of the day. all she's been doing is sleeping. is that good or bad? 

here is a pic of the cat I found today. he's very friendly. he belonged to a neighbor of one of my friends but they threw him out so I grabbed him when I saw him. people can be so horrible.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

If momcat's sleeping more than she usually does, it because she doesn't have the kittens to watch them play and fuss over, and likely she's also is a little depressed that they're gone.

Your new cat does looks very relaxed and a real sweetheart. Never can understand how people can just throw a cat out to fend for itself. I agree with you, it is "horrible". Bless your heart for taking it in. I'm guessing he's a male and it does look like he's been in some fights with his nose scratched up. Likely not neutered? That should be your #1 priority to get him neutered if you plan to keep him, and _do not_ let him near momcat until you do, or she could have another litter of kittens.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Are you sure they threw him out and he didn't just escape? Did you talk to them?


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks for the advice catlover. Unfortunately we can't keep him. We already have a full house with cats and dogs.  And no worries, mom is locked in her room and this cat (I named him Samson lol) is going to sleep with me in the sofa.  But tomorrow I have to take him to the Humane Society but since he is just so friendly I know they will put him up for adoption. he even started playing with Lizzie! (don't worry, she's spayed) 


Mowmow we talked to a lot of people in the building, including the maintenance old man and they all told us the same thing. The cat is left outside day and night. He cries to be let in and they won't open the door. It was extremely cold last month and just about everyone saw the cat all over the building looking for shelter. Many people started to feed him and put out blankets and towels for him and he always tried to get into people's apartments. And all the people we spoke to (my friend included) have repeatedly knocked on the guy's door and told him about the cat and he always has some sort of flimsy excuse. In short, everyone in the building but the owner are the ones taking care of the cat. One lady even got him a flea collar since he is outside all the time. It's really sad that he could just discard his pet that way.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

_mailyn_, I didn't know you had a "house full of cats and dogs", so it's just as well that you're taking "Samson" to the Humane Society. And as you said because "he is so friendly" likely will be adopted as it seems a lot of people like orange cats. I was curious if Samson was found within a mile or two where you found momcat, as the amount of white and markings are very similar in pattern to momcat's two orange and white kitties. I'm wondering if he could have been the _father_ of her kittens, or from a _son_ from a previous litter. 

I think you've had quite enough to deal with as it is lately, and now you can concentrate on getting Lizzie used to momcat and working on her socialization. Good luck!


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

yeah, I have 3 dogs and Lizzie which were my own. now we also have momcat and her older kitten, both of which we are keeping as they would be killed anywhere we took them. so 3 dogs and 3 cats. but we will still pick up as many stray animals as we can. we just have to take them straight to the Humane Society so they can be adopted. we can only keep them for a night or two but more than that it's impossible. I wish I could keep them all. I don't think mom and Samson could know each other. My friend's building is not that far but you have to cross a major highway to get there and there's no way any animal makes it out alive if they try to cross. people that drive there don't care if they see an animal. I don't know if this is related but in the thread I started about some of the animals we've foster you can see that there are a couple of animals that look just like mom. same colors. would they be related? some of those we found years ago. I just think it's so weird to find cats with a combo of all those weird colors. lol

the good news is that so far momcat and Mitzuke (her kitten) seem to be ok with looking at each other. After we took the 5 kittens away I've been letting them see each other thru the baby gate and not one time has either of them hisses at each other. they just have this sort of staring contest but they seem to be ok. once in a while either momcat or Mitzuke will come very near the fence if they can't see one another. I'm guessing is to see if they are still there?

Soon as we take Samson to the humane society today I will try putting Mitzuke in a crate and in mom's room with me. 

Lizzie met mom one time and Mitzuke a couple of times and she's like "meh" lol she doesn't even care they are there. she just doesn't seem to care about anything! that's the laziest cat we've ever had. she just doesn't care for wasting energy on anything. lol


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Guess I was confused, I thot Lizzie was her older kitten from momcat's previous litter.


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Have momcat and her kitten been spayed yet?


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## mailyn (Sep 23, 2010)

the kitten is calle Mitzuke 

the kitten is neutered but mom is not. I'm starting a new thread since now I have different problems


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