# dont know if its a fighting or a mating thing? help please



## cat mama (Feb 18, 2011)

hi, 

we have an 18 months 1/2 persian female cat coco.

Coco isnt your typical cat, shes affraid of most things like blowing leaves and butterflys! She has no balance at all and she is small.

Coco has never strayed to far from the garden, is either in our garden or the nextdoor neighbours. Coco sleeps all day and will usually go out as its getting a little dark. Coco has never stayed out over night.

over the past week there has been a tom cat coming in to our garden he is a lot larger than coco, coco has been following this tom cat and hes been following her. 

They seem to greet each other by rubbing noses, then the tom will usually lie down watching coco, and coco will walk slowly close to the floor, she does not put her bum in the air and her ears are normal not lying back.

on thursday night they did all of this and went in to the nextdoor neighbours garden, when coco was at the door wanting to come in the tom cat appeared in the garden we opened the door and could hear like a deep monaing/growling sound coming from both of them,you could also smell avery strong smell of tom cat wee,
then the tom cat ran out the garden making some funny meaw noise, coco then chased after him making another strange meaw noise, the tom cat then scarpered it over another fence and coco came back inside.

When coco came back in she was still making this strange deep moaning/growling sound.

During all of this we noticed that neither cat had their hair stand up, neither had their ears back.

so we are really confused by it.
surely if it was a fight the tom wouldnt have backed down as he was like nearly 3 times bigger than coco.

if anyone can help would be very gratefull.

Thanks cat mama


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## marie73 (Jul 12, 2006)

Has she been spayed?


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## Susan (Mar 29, 2010)

I had the same question as Marie. If she hasn't been spayed, I think you can just about guarantee they were mating.


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## cat mama (Feb 18, 2011)

Coco hasn't been spayed we haven't seen them with the Tom on top of her just all the other stuff stuff. 

So why would the Tom cat run off from coco and why could we smell his wee?

Thanks


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## Auntie Crazy (Dec 10, 2006)

Susan said:


> I had the same question as Marie. If she hasn't been spayed, I think you can just about guarantee they were mating.


Yep. 

Is there a particular reason you haven't spayed your girl? Not even addressing the homeless kittens issue, the heat cycles and pregnancies will wear her down terribly. It's a rough way for a cat to live.

AC


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Sorry, but if you don't spay your cat and let her go outside, she's going to mate.

It hurts the girl cat when the male cat pulls his penis out of her (since cats have barbed penises), so often the girl cat will growl and attack the male cat after he pulls out. 

Please spay your cat ASAP, and if there's a health reason why she can't be spayed, please always keep her indoors. It's totally irresponsible not to.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

It sure sounds like they mated. As _paperbacknovel _said the barbed penis causes pain in the female and she yowls and often attacks the male. The act of mating releases the eggs, so she will have a litter of kittens. Get her spayed ASAP. The reason that neither had their hair up on end or ears back is that they were friends and familiar with each other. Your female was likely in heat, and that's why both of them were following each other around. I hope you will be a responsible pet owner and get Coco spayed right away.


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## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

Yep, prepare for kittens


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

_@Xanti_, they won't have to prepare for kittens if they get Coco spayed.


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## cat mama (Feb 18, 2011)

im sorry but why would it be a bad thing if coco does have kittens? we wanted her to have the chance of having 1 litter then we are going to get her spayed.

if someone took my right away from me of having children thats a very sad thing just because shes an animal she does have the right as any female to have babies.

Also we are a very responsible family, the reason that we had coco was that we have 2 autistic children and did some reasearch and having a pet can help autistic children in understanding feelings, my children get a lot out of having coco as she is so fluffy they love the sensory texture of her, and she loves them to and will only sleep on their beds at night as if shes guarding them.

My children go to a special need school and we know a few famlies from there that would to have a kitten from a loving home to help their child as coco has helped our children. So the kittens would be well looked after.

To me all of the above is being responsible as we are considering coco and allready thinking about suitable loving homes for her litter.


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## Xanti (Nov 4, 2008)

Cat Mama, I'm sorry, but cats don't think like we do. Your cat is not thinking about her rights to have kittens, it's only instinct to them and if she is spayed she won't have that instinct anymore.

What's done is done I guess, and if you don't want to spay her now, I hope she has an easy pregnancy and no complications at birth. I'm glad they will be looked after when they are born.


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## Sinatra-Butters (Aug 9, 2010)

Cat Mama, according to the Humane Society of the United States, shelters euthanize 3-4 million homeless cats and dogs a year. I'm sure there is an animal rescue organization near you that would be glad to help your friends find a cat that is right for them, even if you aren't in the US. Also, there are serious health risks when you let your cat give birth. Cats often die when they give birth, and it has happened to members of this site. If you want your cat to give birth you are risking her life.


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## Pawsitively Nicole (Feb 12, 2011)

I understand your line of thinking cat mama, however it is very true that cat's do no think like we do. You were wondering why it would be a bad thing so I am going to be honest with you because it is important for people to know about this stuff. The first step in saving lives is informing people, and so I am happy to share. 

First of all do you happen to know much about this male that she is mating with? Is he vaccinated, well taken care of, etc? Is Coco vaccinated? There are a ton of feline diseases that can be transferred sexually, or that your cat can be exposed to simply by interacting with unvaccinated cats on the streets. Things like feline leukemia, FIV, etc. If you don't know these things then you need to get Coco tested ASAP. She could also transfer these things to her kittens if she has indeed now been infected by them. 

It is truly healthier for your kitty to be spayed. You can prevent a lot of things by fixing them, things like many types of cancer for example. You also help keep her safer. If she is in heat she is going to be seeking out other cats and guaranteed to be getting in fights. Have you ever watched or listened to cats mating? It is brutal.

The biggest thing for why it is sad is the fact that there are way too many cats and not enough homes to take them. 70% of cats that enter shelters are euthanized purely for the fact that there isn't enough space to house them all and enough people adopting them fast enough. Hundreds of thousands of cats are killed every year. I hate to tell you this, but the chances of one of Coco's babies ending up in a shelter are extremely high. Especially in this economy, people are getting rid of their cats at a much higher rate. This last kitten season was so severe that all of the kills shelters in my area were euthanizing pregnant females or litters that came in that were too young to go straight to adoption upon surrender. The number one cause of death of healthy pet cats in the USA is a very preventable one: overpopulation. In Washington alone about 40,000 cats are put to sleep in shelters every year simply because there are not enough homes. If there were any disease this devastating it would be all over national news. Spaying and neutering truly is about life and death.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that only 50% of kittens make it to adulthood. The most common death is fading kitten syndrome, where they just die and you can't explain it. It is heartbreaking. I've witnessed so many kittens die and been overwhelmed. There is so much death, needless death and suffering, that could be prevented just by someone spaying or neutering their cat. According to humane sites one un-spayed female cat and one un-neutered male cat and their offspring results in 420,000 kittens in 7 years. A female cat usually has 4-5 kittens in a litter and can have 5 litters a year. That is so much death, so many cats that live sad lives that end all alone because there are too many kitties. 

What's done is done, and if Coco is pregnant than I know since you love her that you will keep her monitored by a vet and taken care of. Please get her to a vet and checked to see if she is pregnant/tested for diseases that she is now susceptible to. And I beg you, as a rescue worker that has seen the suffering, pain, and needless end of life on the other side, please get her spayed as soon as possible. I would highly encourage you to do some research on pet overpopulation, the pros and cons of spaying/neutering. There is just so much the public doesn't hear about. Thanks so much for being willing to ask the question and hear why people reacted the way they did!


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## Kobster (Feb 1, 2007)

I agree that she was likely mating with the tom. He probably sprayed the yard with urine to mark that coco was his female. The reason he ran off is because he accomplished his task. Typical man, once he gets what he wants, he's out of there....



> Coco isnt your typical cat, shes affraid of most things like blowing leaves and butterflys! She has no balance at all and she is small.


I agree that Coco should be spayed. Cats who are spayed and neutered and never reproduce live long happy healthy lives and are in no way "deprived" of anything. The pet overpopulation aside, I want to point out a few facts about genetics.

1) You say your cat has no balance. This is NOT normal for a cat and she likely has some kind of neurological problem. She might very well pass this problem on to her kittens who may manifest much worse symptoms. 

2) you describe your cat as 1/3 the size of the tom. HUGE problem. The kittens now have the potential to be much too large for Coco to pass naturally. Are you prepared for a $2,000.00 Emergency c-section when she can't deliver her kittens? If not, are you prepared to lose her, because she will die if she can't deliver and can't have a c-section. 

As already mentioned there are a ton of other reasons why you should spay coco now. You have no way of knowing how many kittens she might have so how many homes do you have lined up? How do you know that those owners will be responsible? 
What if all her babies grow up to have babies and they have babies, pretty soon you've run out of family and friends to pawn the kittens off on and you have to face a harsh reality. 

here is a link for you to consider. 
Humane Society of Whitley County


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## MowMow (Nov 6, 2010)

Agreed, you are anthropomorphizing Coco's feelings. She's not thinking "Oh, I'm so glad I'm in heat, I've always wanted kittens!" She's feeling intense and uncomfortable instinctual urges and is thinking "I NEED TO MATE NOW!" because instinctually she knows that will stop her discomfort.

Cats don't have the same menstrual cycles as women. It's not a matter of buying a box of product and being inconvenienced for a few days. If you read other posts on how their cats act when in heat you know by their behavior and body language that it's a terrible and painful experience for a cat. 

I know that back in the day vets used too always suggest letting a dog/cat have a litter before spaying so they could 'mature' and be fulfilled but now research has shown that each litter reduces an animals life span. I really do hope you plan on offering her prenatal/birthing veterinary care if you decide to have the kittens. No to do so would be terribly cruel. I'm sure that most cats do give birth safely and with no complications however there are so many things that can go wrong. You mentioned she has balance problems. This indicates a problem that could effect her ability to deliver safely (added to the danger from the large size of the tom cat and her small size) Just a few are:

Vaginal Bleeding: Vaginal bleeding during pregnancy is not normal and suggests that she is aborting the litter. If this is occurring late in pregnancy (the 8th week) she may be delivering the litter prematurely and a cesarean section is likely necessary. In either case, have the vet check her to assess the blood loss and decide what to do.

Dystochia: If she has been having strong contractions for greater than 60 minutes, she needs assistance in passing the kitten. Bring her and any kittens delivered to the vet’s office right away.

Retained Placenta/Metritis: If the mother cat retains a placenta , she can develop an infection, fever, appetite loss, and kitten neglect. If this occurs, she will need to see the vet right away, possibly be hospitalized and will probably need to be spayed to remove the infection.

Neonatal Isoerythrolysis: If the mother cat has Type B blood and the kittens have Type A blood, antibodies in the mother's milk will destroy the kitten's red blood cells. This is only preventable if one knows the blood type of the mother cat in advance (most cats are Type A but certain breeds commonly have Type B blood). Kittens in this situation can be saved if they do not nurse from their natural mother.

Uterine torsion or rupture are major emergencies which can arise in late pregnancy or first stage labor. Torsion implies a twisting of the uterus, cutting off its blood supply, making delivery of the contained fetus or fetuses impossible. 

Eclampsia is also referred to as milk fever, puerperal tetany, and hypocalcemia. The symptoms in cats will be different than in dogs, but it all centers around your lactating or nursing pet's body not being able to keep up with the demand of calcium their body is putting out. 
...these are just the first few I found doing a google search.... I'm sure there are many more.

Keep in mind that if something happens to her during birth you're going to be hand raising/bottle feeding anywhere from 1 - 12+ kittens. I realize you want what's best for Coco and I'm sure you love her very much. 

There are so many unwanted cats and dogs and while it's wonderful that you've found the kittens homes perhaps it might be more responsible to get her spayed right now before she's into her pregnancy and instead take *ALL* those potential adopters to a shelter or rescue organization and save the lives of 6-8 kittens that are facing a death penalty.


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## catloverami (Jul 5, 2010)

Good post _MowMow_. I'd also like to add that some females will have nothing to do with their kittens after they're born. They will not nurse them and you can't force them to. So any prospective breeder must be _prepared to hand feed_ 24/7 every 2 hrs. Are you prepared to do that?

Sometimes first-time momcats do not know where the umbilical cord should end when they're biting it off, and carry on and eat the kitten. Do you want your kids to experience something like that? or yourself? 

You are greatly risking a pregnancy with this small female which in all likelihood would need a $$$$ C-section. 

Do the right thing, and get her spayed, and suggest to your friends to get a humane society cat, as_ MowMow_ suggested.


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## paperbacknovel (Jun 9, 2010)

Please read these great posts, cat mama. Your cat is at high risk for complications that may risk her life and health. That would be awful for your children to experience, especially because Coco is so important to them.

If you are interested in your children experiencing "the wonders of a kitten birth", talk to your local shelter and see about fostering a pregnant mom cat while she gives birth to and raises her kittens. 

Like others said, your cat does not really want to have kittens. And, like others said, pregnant cats and innocent baby kittens are being killed in shelters everywhere just because there are not enough homes for them. Why don't you spay your cat now to prevent more death and pain and to keep her healthy, and then direct the families who want kittens to the nearest shelter where kittens are being put to death? That would be the responsible thing to do.

Or, as I suggested above, maybe you can foster a pregnant cat from a rescue. Raise the kittens in your home, and then the shelter will find homes for them. You can have the families you know adopt one of the kittens you helped raise.

That way you are not risking your cat's life and health.

Please let us know if you have any questions on the things you're reading here. We want Coco's life to be long and healthy so your children can enjoy being with her as long as possible.


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## Pawsitively Nicole (Feb 12, 2011)

I sincerely hope you are still reading this thread and just haven't had a chance to reply cat mama. Please don't feel like anyone is ganging up on you if you do, we are sharing our thoughts from experience and knowledge because we share the same love as you do, kitties, and we all want what's best. It is obvious that you love your girl and want what's best for her 

I encourage you to go over to the breeding section of the forum. There are many posters who have shared similar sentiments as you. They were faced with the harsh reality of breeding, and some suffered terrible loss. Learn from them, and from all who have posted in this thread. Do it because you love Coco and your boys and want them to have many happy years together.


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